NCASE M1 build help for first-timer

[charww]

Greetings! I am a first-time builder and first-time poster. I would be grateful if someone would please look at my intended build to confirm that it should work. Have I done anything obviously wrong? I have answered the questions from the Sticky Post below. If you bother to read through it all, you are heroic.
Thank you very much,
Charlotte

CASE: NCASE M1
Motherboard: Asus P8Z77-I Deluxe $137.99 link
CPU: Intel Core i5-3570K $219.99 (or i5-3550 if price is much lower) link
GPU: NVidia GTX 760 by MSI $259.99 link
PSU: Silverstone SFX 450W $93.99 link
RAM: 2 x Corsair 8GB 1600mhz DDR3 $79.32 link ?
SSD: Samsung 840 Pro 256GB $224.95 link
Cooling: I think case comes with fans? If not, I will buy 2x120mm fans?
Optical DVD: External USB DVD $35.78 link ?
Monitor: 24 inch 1920x1080 $147.99 link ?
OS: Win 7 Home Prem.. Owned (new box, unopened)
TOTAL: $1200

Answers to sticky post questions:
1. Use: Portable Gaming - mmoRPGs and solo RPGS - GW2, Neverwinter, Secret World, WoW, Skyrim etc. Currently using a 5 year old ASUS gaming laptop that runs these games on lowest settings, so a mid-range gaming computer for casual gaming will feel like an incredible upgrade to me.
2. Overclocking? No Water cooling? No. Way too intimidating and complex for my first build.
3. Budget: Less than $1500. Preferably closer to $1000. I am aiming for mid-range gaming. Less is better if it doesn’t sacrifice performance much.
4. Do I live near box stores: No. Am in USA. There is one Best Buy near me, nothing else. I plan to use mostly amazon prime.
5. What exact parts do you need? I listed everything I plan to use above. That is the full build. I feel pretty good about most of the parts. I’m still uncertain about:

Fans - Do I need to buy them or do they come stock? I’ve assumed they ship with the case. If not, I think I need 2x120mm fans mounted to case bottom? They should blow air into the case?
GPU - NCase page recommends a rear exhaust GPU. Does this matter hugely? Should I get this card instead?
Optical drive - Does the case only take an internal vertical slim optical drive? Those seem rare and expensive. Is there another internal type I can use? I plan to use DVD not blue-ray, to keep price down. I don’t use a DVD drive very often. Rarely to watch a video or load a game. Currently plan to use an external USB OD as that seems low cost and good enough.
Motherboard: Some commenters report that a video card requiring dual slot blocks the HD audio connection on this MoBo. I think that means I wouldn’t be able to use the microphone and headphone jacks at the front of the case? I use microphone and headphone jacks frequently for gaming, so using the front ports would be ideal but, my current plan is to use extension cords from the rear mobo ports if needed.
Monitor: Still researching. 23” or 24”, 1920 x 1080 seems likely.​

6. Reused parts: None
7. Specific features needed: Portable! I take my compy to game with my best friend 2x per week.
8. Resolution: 1920 x 1080 seems fine.
9. Space and optical drive: No particular space limit, am trying to go as small and light as possible for portability. Optical drive - see #5.
10. Case modification: No, please.
11. Noise: Quiet is nice but ranks lower than portability, performance and price.
12. Mobility: Highest priority. Small and light weight are important. Plan to use GearGrips harness and a cover that I will sew myself to provide cushioned protection and carrying capacity for extras (keyboard, power cord, headphones).
13. OS license: I own a new, unopened, legit Windows 7 home prem labeled as OEM system builder pack.
14. When do you plan on building/buying: As soon as my M1 case arrives in January. Will start to buy parts now if they hit a great price point.

edit: Fixed broken links. My apologies, I didn't realize that the tinyurls wouldn't work.

 

[Phuncz]

None of your links work

Fans - Do I need to buy them or do they come stock? I’ve assumed they ship with the case. If not, I think I need 2x120mm fans mounted to case bottom? They should blow air into the case?

Fans are not included. They are when we are talking about a retail case, but this isn't a retail case. If possible, use two fans on the side and two on the bottom but since you are using a GPU, fans on the bottom aren't going to help you, so just use them on the side to blow inwards. Advice on the fans will probably be better from someone else but you can't go wrong with two "NF-P12 PWM" Noctua fans. Check if your motherboard has two PWM fan headers (4-pin instead of 3-pin), otherwise get the "NF-P12" ones.

GPU - NCase page recommends a rear exhaust GPU. Does this matter hugely?

It will be best but it isn't strict. A GTX 760 is not going to melt your case or anything, but it will require some changes, like turning the case fans to blow outwards, so the hot air from the GPU is sucked out.
Remember to also turn around any fans on your CPU cooler (unless standard boxed cooler), so you are not making fans "compete" against eachother. This would result in more noise and less efficient cooling.

I'd recommend buying a card with a blower-style fan (which is what I think you mean), there are plenty of options around 250$ when you're looking at a GTX 760.

Optical drive - Does the case only take an internal vertical slim optical drive? Those seem rare and expensive. Is there another internal type I can use? I plan to use DVD not blue-ray, to keep price down. I don’t use a DVD drive very often. Rarely to watch a video or load a game. Currently plan to use an external USB OD as that seems low cost and good enough.

There are no vertical slimline drives but you do need a slot-loading slimline optical drive. If you are lugging this around, it might be better to just include one as it will mean less clutter and less carrying/forgetting/losing stuff.

Why are you planning on the 3rd generation Core i-CPU's and not the 4th (Haswell) ? The prices don't differ much but they are a little more energy-efficient and the motherboards often newer technologies.
RAM-wise I'd choose VLP (Very Low Profile) memory as they have no downside but two upsides: very low profile doesn't interfere with any CPU cooler and it is 1.35V instead of 1.5V so a little more energy efficient as well. Not a big difference, but it is also not a downside. Crucial has the Ballistix Sport which I also have, I can recommend them.

 

[charww]

Phuncz, thank you very much for taking the time to reply. I appreciate the insights and helpful suggestions you gave. I had to do a lot of reading yesterday, to learn about VLP and Haswell, etc. Based on what I learned, I’ve updated my build plan to the following, though I still have a few questions and welcome any feedback you or others may have for me.

UPDATED:
Motherboard: Asus Z87-I Deluxe $189.99 link
CPU: Intel Core i5-4670K $229.99 link
GPU: Nvidia GTX 760 (rear exhaust) $249.99 link
RAM: 2 x 4GB Crucial Ballistix Sport VLP$86.55 link
Cooling: Fans, still researching. Configuration suggestions very welcome
OD: Slim slot-load internal $36 link
AS BEFORE:
PSU: Silverstone SFX 450W $93.99 link
SSD: Samsung 840 Pro 256GB $224.95 link
Monitor: 23-24 inch 1920x1080 $147.99 link
OS: Win 7 Home Prem.. Owned (new box, unopened)
TOTAL: $1259.45

Haswell: I don’t really need the additional performance, but you are right that it’s a small cost increase. Only $60 more for this Mobo and CPU combination, so thank you for the suggestion.
GPU: I would like to follow NCASE recommendation for a "rear exhaust" card, though I am still not entirely clear on how to identify a particular card as venting out the back. I think this one I've picked is a quality version of the GTX 760 that will do so. Does someone mind confirming that is correct, please?
Fans: I’m just starting to look at fans, but given the new GPU, I please wanted to confirm that you still think the proper fan configuration would be to mount 2x120mm fans on the side of the case blowing air into the case?
RAM: Most everyone else on the M1 build thread seems to be putting 16GB of ram in, but the internet tells me that 8GB should be plenty for gaming. Is it ok for me to save some money here and just use 8GB?
OD: I’m strangely not finding many choices for slim slot-load DVD, and only found one in my price point. It seems ok though.

Again, I very much appreciate anyone willing to answer my questions. I'm hoping that with a little guidance (and a ton of reading!) my first self-built computer will be a success.

 

[Phuncz]

Phuncz, thank you very much for taking the time to reply.

No problem, that's what we're here for, ar atleast why I am here

GPU: I would like to follow NCASE recommendation for a "rear exhaust" card, though I am still not entirely clear on how to identify a particular card as venting out the back. I think this one I've picked is a quality version of the GTX 760 that will do so. Does someone mind confirming that is correct, please?

The one you choose indeed is a rear-exhaust card, with a blower-style fan.

Left = "Blower" or Radial fan
Right = "Normal" or Axial fan

The difference is in the fan blades. The slotted PCI-bracket actually is not needed on the right example because the fans will vent the air out from multiple directions anyway. So don't think that a slotted bracket suggests it's a rear exhaust cooling, because almost ALL cards have slotted brackets

Fans: I’m just starting to look at fans, but given the new GPU, I please wanted to confirm that you still think the proper fan configuration would be to mount 2x120mm fans on the side of the case blowing air into the case?

Two fans blowing inwards is indeed the way to go if you have a blower-style fan on your GPU. You can also add a 92mm fan to exhaust heat in the back, I believe. But there were some limitations when you could use it, so you need to look into that first.

RAM: Most everyone else on the M1 build thread seems to be putting 16GB of ram in, but the internet tells me that 8GB should be plenty for gaming. Is it ok for me to save some money here and just use 8GB?

I'd recommend getting 16GB now, as the DDR3 prices will probably only go up from now on. They have already went up a bit in the last months. Also, some games are "recommending" 8GB of RAM zo it won't be very long that even 8GB is standard. But I know from experience it's a lot harder to find the same RAM later. Also, mITX only has 2 DIMM-sockets, so you'd need to get/find a single 8GB stick and find the same one later.

 

[charww]

Great! Thank you so much for answering my questions and providing explanations. This was very helpful.

 

[Frazhna]

I noticed that you are not planning on overclocking. If that is the case, you may want to consider a CPU that does not end with a 'K'. It is my understanding that Intel makes the "K" processors so that they can be overclocked, but they also make almost the same processor that can't overclock and it costs less. So instead of getting a 4670K, you should be able to find a 4670 and save yourself about $20. If you are not going to overclock, you will never even notice a difference.

 

[AFD]

OD: I’m strangely not finding many choices for slim slot-load DVD, and only found one in my price point. It seems ok though.

Check out the new EVGA slot-load DVD burner. It's a Panasonic UJ8CF with slim SATA power/data cable. Price was only $39 like a day ago, but it looks like they jacked the price up to $49 (not sure how much S&H is, though)..

http://www.evga.com/Products/Product.aspx?pn=100-OD-S101-BR

You can also save around $30 by going with the non-modular Silverstone ST45SF, instead of the ST45SF-G. It's efficiency isn't quite as good, though (bronze instead of gold rated)..

http://www.amazon.com/Silverstone-ST45SF-watts-factor-supply/dp/B003H4QPDC/

And also consider the new Samsung 840 EVO 250 vs the 840 Pro.. performance is very comparable, reviews are excellent for both. Should be able to save around $50 that way..

http://www.amazon.com/Samsung-Electronics-2-5-Inch-Internal-MZ-7TE250BW/dp/B00E3W1726/

Definitely agree w/Phuncz suggestions on low profile 1.35V RAM, 4th-gen Haswell and blower-style 760. The Noctua fans are highly regarded, but rather expensive as far as fans go.. unless you absolutely need super-quiet fans, you'd probably be alright with some Corsairs for half the price.

Definitely keep an eye out for sales and price drops. Those LP Ballistix Sports were on sale for $130 at Newegg a few days ago (2x8GB), but overall RAM prices have risen considerably since last year. The Samsung SSD prices seem to fluctuate weekly, but in general, are dropping in price. The Z87i-Deluxe is still new out, and should drop eventually, but occasionally you can score a good Intel CPU / ASUS mobo combo deal at Newegg (I was able to save $50 on mine). Plus, Black Friday & Cyber Monday deals are coming soon.

Anyway, happy shopping!

 

[Phuncz]

AFD has a better grasp on US prices, as it shows Good suggestions, I was also on the fence about the 840 Pro but didn't know the prices differed so much.

 

[charww]

I noticed that you are not planning on overclocking. If that is the case, you may want to consider a CPU that does not end with a 'K'.

I had been wondering about that! Thank you very much, Frazhna for anticipating a question that I had been thinking but didn't ask.

 

[charww]

AFD, thank you so much for this incredibly helpful reply. It precipitated more reading.

You can also save around $30 by going with the non-modular Silverstone ST45SF, instead of the ST45SF-G. It's efficiency isn't quite as good

I hadn't seen that option, thank you. In the end, I've decided that gold efficiency is worth the price because 1)My video card is officially for 500W, 2)more efficient is more environmentally thoughtful, and 3)this component seems most likely to be reused in a future build, so worth spending more money up front.

And also consider the new Samsung 840 EVO 250 vs the 840 Pro.. performance is very comparable, reviews are excellent for both. Should be able to save around $50 that way..

Thank you! I'm definitely switching to this. Now I don't have to feel crunched to buy the recommended 16GB of RAM.

Plus, Black Friday & Cyber Monday deals are coming soon.

Brilliant. I hadn't even thought of that. Excellent suggestion.

I will look at the corsair fans to save a bit more money (I'm still reading about fans and DVD drives). Thank you all, again, very much for the help. I feel that my build and understanding is much improved for having posted.

 

[charww]

UPDATED:
Motherboard: Asus Z87-I Deluxe $189.99 link
CPU: Intel Core i5-4670 $219.99 link
GPU: Nvidia GTX 760 (rear exhaust) $249.99 link
RAM: 2 x 8GB Crucial Ballistix Sport VLP$162.35 link
SSD: Samsung 840 Evo 250GB $177.99 link
Cooling: 2 x 120mm fans
PSU: Silverstone SFX 450W $93.99 link
OD: External 8X DVD $30 link
Monitor: 23-24 inch 1920x1080
OS: Win 7 Home Prem.. Owned (new box, unopened)
TOTAL: $1272

Thank you enormously for the help. I am looking forward to this!

PS. I am leaning toward an inexpensive external DVD drive. This is such a low priority component for me, I may as well save the weight and keep it on a shelf most of the time, instead of carrying it around 2x week.

 

[AFD]

AFD, thank you so much for this incredibly helpful reply. It precipitated more reading.

Very welcome!

Build looks good, and hopefully you'll be able to catch some deals on your list over the next few months.

Are you sticking with stock Intel heatsink/fan, or aftermarket air cooler?

 

[charww]

Are you sticking with stock Intel heatsink/fan, or aftermarket air cooler?

(More reading later...) Just the stock cooler for simplicity's sake, especially since I don't plan to overclock. Thank you!

 

[EnderW]

wow, you are really over spending

$200 case when nice ITX cases can be had for <$50
http://slickdeals.net/f/6327724-fra...r-rebate-free-shipping-at-newegg-lowest-price

you could also get a standard ATX PSU if you chose a different case and save some money there

Z series motherboard when you don't plan on overclocking

16GB RAM for a gaming only computer

 

[jojo69]

wow, you are really over spending

$200 case when nice ITX cases can be had for <$50
http://slickdeals.net/f/6327724-fra...r-rebate-free-shipping-at-newegg-lowest-price

you could also get a standard ATX PSU if you chose a different case and save some money there

Z series motherboard when you don't plan on overclocking

16GB RAM for a gaming only computer

Excuse me, sir

I will be needing your [H] card

 

[EnderW]

Excuse me, sir

I will be needing your [H] card

I've been here 6 years longer than you and wasting money isn't [H]ard in my book
premium components are nice, but straight out wasting money is pointless
why not put that cash towards a GPU upgrade in a couple years that will give you some real performance gain?

 

[AFD]

wow, you are really over spending

$200 case when nice ITX cases can be had for <$50
http://slickdeals.net/f/6327724-fra...r-rebate-free-shipping-at-newegg-lowest-price

I'll gladly spend the extra $165 for a lighter aluminum case that's significantly smaller, and a heck of a lot nicer to boot (OP did want a mid-range portable gaming rig, and her $205 case is already purchased, so why recommend changing that?).

You'd probably shit a brick if I told you my M1 budget, which I'm building primarily for my own enjoyment and for nothing at all that would require the overkill of parts I'm putting in it. I'm using a K CPU and Z mobo, and may never overclock. I'll eventually be installing a GPU card, and I don't plan on gaming with it. Heck, I honestly don't even need a small ITX platform. I work hard for my money, haven't bought a new rig in many years, and instead of wasting my cash at the bar or collecting stamps, I'm spending it on a build I want.

Hell, I'm generally so cheap & frugal, that I've been using the same $200 Lian Li case (and mostly the same internals) for 10 years now, and probably will for another 10 years. I've certainly gotten $20/year worth of enjoyment out of that case so far

Anyway, here's a render of the M1 vs Node 304..

 

[EnderW]

I'll gladly spend the extra $165 for a lighter aluminum case that's significantly smaller, and a heck of a lot nicer to boot (OP did want a mid-range portable gaming rig, and her $205 case is already purchased, so why recommend changing that?).

You'd probably shit a brick if I told you my M1 budget, which I'm building primarily for my own enjoyment and for nothing at all that would require the overkill of parts I'm putting in it. I'm using a K CPU and Z mobo, and may never overclock. I'll eventually be installing a GPU card, and I don't plan on gaming with it. Heck, I honestly don't even need a small ITX platform. I work hard for my money, haven't bought a new rig in many years, and instead of wasting my cash at the bar or collecting stamps, I'm spending it on a build I want.

Hell, I'm generally so cheap & frugal, that I've been using the same $200 Lian Li case (and mostly the same internals) for 10 years now, and probably will for another 10 years. I've certainly gotten $20/year worth of enjoyment out of that case so far

Anyway, here's a render of the M1 vs Node 304..

http://i.imgur.com/tsrVC8e.jpg[IMG][/QUOTE]

the Fractal Node was just one example of a nice case for way less money
you could also get a SG05 that weighs less and has less overall volume for $40
and what makes the M1 "nicer"?

if you didn't waste money on "overkill" parts you could afford to upgrade your computer much more often

I get that premium cases and parts are nice, but when you're on a tight budget, I don't understand dumping a bunch of money on items that don't give you any extra performance

that's just my personal take on things
instead of building a $2000 computer today, I'd rather build a $1000 one and then upgrade or replace it with another $1000 one in a couple years
you get a much higher performance/$ that way

and this is coming from someone who has owned multiple Lian Li cases :)

 

[xinux]

I've been here 6 years longer than you and wasting money isn't [H]ard in my book
premium components are nice, but straight out wasting money is pointless
why not put that cash towards a GPU upgrade in a couple years that will give you some real performance gain?

200$ is not a high price to pay for the beauty that is the M1

 

[cowsgomoo]

But a case doesn't depreciate in value like hardware. I'll rather get one M1 case instead of many Lian Li cases because I don't run a server farm.

 

[AFD]

you could also get a SG05 that weighs less and has less overall volume for $40 and what makes the M1 "nicer"?

Nicer is subjective, but in my opinion, it is one of the most versatile, well thought out SFF cases I've ever seen. It can fit hardware that many larger ITX cases cannot. And as Xinux mentioned, it's just beautiful.. in both appearance and design. That alone is worth the premium to me, since I'll have to look at it every day. Nothing wrong with a Sugo either, if it fits your needs/wants.

instead of building a $2000 computer today, I'd rather build a $1000 one and then upgrade or replace it with another $1000 one in a couple years
you get a much higher performance/$ that way

Never really thought of it that way, I suppose. Pretty much short-term mid-range vs long-term upper-end. You make a valid point, but personally, I'm the type of person that will continue using stuff until it breaks. I can see your idea being good if you're into selling off old parts to fund new (or even donating), but otherwise that just seems wasteful. In 2 years time, a $2000 PC built today should hold its own just fine against a brand-new $1000 build. It's possible the $1k PC will be better in certain aspects at that point, just as the $2k PC was better in the beginning. Or, carbon nanotube computing could arrive in the 3rd year, and both would pale in comparison

Anyway, don't want to derail Charlotte's thread any more than we already have (sorry!).

While I think her current list is pretty damn good value for the money, your suggestions on 8GB RAM and non-enthusiast motherboard are definitely worth considering (that particular board does have a lot of nice added features besides OC, and it's not like we're suggesting the ROG). The M1 pre-order is already final and in production, so there's really no sense in changing that.. though there are many others looking to buy one that missed out, if she would want to sell it (which I doubt, since her build is centered around the M1 purchase). With nearly 3 months until delivery, there's plenty of time for the parts on her current list to drop in price (other than RAM it seems) to hit the low end of her budget or to bump up say the 760 to a 770 instead (btw, those are both rumored to get price cuts in November).

So.. buy a Titan?? lol, j/k

 

[WiSK]

Z series motherboard when you don't plan on overclocking

16GB RAM for a gaming only computer

She already bought the case, but these two points are valid.

Asus H81i Plus is $80 (save $100), although it has no WiFi - was that important? Then Gigabyte H87N-Wifi is like $120 (save $60).

Memory is very expensive now, so don't buy more than you need. 8GB is fine for playing WoW, Skyrim, NWN, etc.

Also the PSU. There's no need for the modular gold version. Since you'll use all 5 cables, there's no advantage of modularity. The non-modular is tidier unless you are making custom short cables. The $30 saving of the ST45SF over the ST45SF-G discounts any monthly energy bill saving for at least 5 years.

And you ask about case fans. Last year, a popular and respected French hardware review site did a scientific test of 63 of the most popular case fans. Including many fans that get recommended based on 'reputation'. You can use your favourite auto-translation site to read this Comparison dB(A) v CFM but the graph should speak for itself. If you like lime, these Coollink Swif2 are ideal

 

[Phuncz]

Memory is very expensive now, so don't buy more than you need. 8GB is fine for playing WoW, Skyrim, NWN, etc.

While 8GB is fine now, it won't be in the near future. COD: Ghosts is already recommending 6 GB RAM and that game is basically developed for consoles. But the next gen consoles have 8GB (shared with GPU memory), but since they aren't loading drivers, Windows, DirectX, mail client, webbrowser and whatnot, this will soon be not much.

The prices have recently risen a little but with DDR4 being in production and DDR3 leaving the top spot at manufacturers in the next year, DDR3 RAM can only become more expensive. Also, only two slots so you either buy 2x 4GB now or run single-channel 1x 8GB to later upgrade. In any way, in about 3 years, it will be a lot more expensive to upgrade your RAM than now. We're also not talking about hundreds of dollars here.

I witnessed this problem myself: purchased 2x 2GB DDR2-8500 with my Core 2 Quad, 2 years later everything was DDR3 and I couldn't buy it anymore. I had to pay hundreds of dollars for 4x 2GB DDR2-8500 because I couldn't find the same type or just find them second-hand. It took me a year to track down the same set for only 120$.

 

[WiSK]

Current price is high because of the Hynix fire, eventually it's back to normal. Similar to the flood at Western Digital that caused a price rise in hard drives for a long while. In broad terms the price of memory per byte will always get lower not higher, but prices are volatile (see http://www.jcmit.com/mem2013.htm - note price spikes in 1989, 1995, 2004, 2011).

Not sure your anecdote is a good example. DDR4 is not even available yet, so we are not standing on the cusp of DDR3 becoming obsolete. The transition between DDR2 and DDR3 was long and protracted. If you bought an LGA 775 that late in the cycle then you already did have the option of many DDR3 motherboards. And by the time DDR3 was totally dominant, these boards would have included plenty that were reasonably priced. You could have got a new motherboard and new DDR3 for less than you paid for that old DDR2. The P5Q3 was a nice upgrade board, my son still runs my old Q9400 on that.

Anyway, ($145-$80 =) $65 is a big saving. You can play the games she lists with 4GB. Unlikely that their sequels will fail to run with 8GB in three years time.

 

[Skott]

8GB ram is fine for gaming and will be for a few more years at least I believe, Now if you want to do rendering or some type of digital work 16GB would be the way to go. In any event, depending on the mobo, you can get 8GB now and add another 8GB down the road. RAM and GPU are the easiest hardware components to add after a build.

 

[Topweasel]

8GB ram is fine for gaming and will be for a few more years at least I believe, Now if you want to do rendering or some type of digital work 16GB would be the way to go. In any event, depending on the mobo, you can get 8GB now and add another 8GB down the road. RAM and GPU are the easiest hardware components to add after a build.

1. It's starting to become the defacto standard which means that you usually want more for the errant new game that wants more. 2. The other poster was right, even compared to last year memory price's are moving up, and once DDR3 is "replaced" production will shift for DDR3 to DDR4 which will cause supply to slow which will cause memory prices to increase even more. 3. It's one thing if you choose to upgrade a head of time, (like to save a couple bucks this year) and get it before it starts to realistically go up. But really most people won't upgrade memory for several years meaning in late 2015 and 2016 you will be buying DDR3 when it's being EOL'd which is when it starts drastically increasing in price. 4. This is a two slot board, with dual memory channels. Which means you are running at half bandwidth now in all your games and applications if you only get one 8GB stick now. This means that you really need to get 2x4GB now. Which means paying half the price now to then have to pay over double later as memory increases in price.

 

[Phuncz]

Exactly my point but apparently people like spending 100$ on GPU waterblocks more than 65$ on RAM that will in the future have paid for itself. While it might not be an issue now as I already emphasised, it will be in the future when you will want to upgrade. Especially with mITX where you only have 2 slots, which means replacing RAM when it comes to it. It's just not a sound reasoning to save 65$ (on almost 1300$) now to spend more than 200$ in a few years and have obselete 2x 4GB sticks lying around, because no one will want those since they come standard in about every PC nowadays.

 

[nekrosoft13]

But a case doesn't depreciate in value like hardware. I'll rather get one M1 case instead of many Lian Li cases because I don't run a server farm.

what does Lian-Li have to do with server farm?

 

[charww]

Thank you, EnderW, WiSK, Phuncz, AFD, cowsgomoo, xinux, Skott, Topweasel for your new input. I really appreciate everyone who is willing to reply to my questions and offer their insight. **APOLOGIES** for the length of this post, but I want to respond to each topic.

wow, you are really over spending

ON COST: Current build is hitting approx $1250, which is the low end for a gaming laptop. This budget is comparable to what I would spend if I didn’t build my own SFF, and I will get better performance for the same price. I think it makes long-term fiscal sense to build my own, which can be upgraded in components every three years or as needed, instead of replacing the entire computer every 5-6 years. As EnderW puts it:

instead of building a $2000 computer today, I'd rather build a $1000 one and then upgrade or replace it with another $1000 one in a couple years

Yes! I agree and that is essentially what I’m doing. $1250 is closer to $1000 than $2000, don’t you think?

I work hard for my money, haven't bought a new rig in many years, and ... I'm spending it on a build I want.

...760 to a 770 instead (btw, those are both rumored to get price cuts in November).

-Yes! Exactly. After 5+ years on a 15” laptop, I’m ready for my games to look pretty again.
-Another great price tip, thank you.

ON THE CASE:

$200 case when nice ITX cases can be had for <$50… you could also get a standard ATX PSU if you chose a different case and save some money there…you could also get a SG05 that weighs less and has less overall volume for $40 and what makes the M1 "nicer"?

Thank you. Great points. SG05-LITE was my first choice until I saw the M1. After deciding to build instead of buy, I must have looked at every possible ITX and ATX case out there. That I found the M1 is a fair indication of how much reading and searching I did. I had a comparison spreadsheet. Portability is a high priority for me. Most cases, esp. ATX, were larger than wanted. I decided to spend more and wait the extra year-ish for the M1 to ship. Why? This is my *first* build, it won’t be my *last* build. The M1 is by far the smallest case for the configurations it allows. My intent is that the case is a reusable part worth the initial investment… maybe next time I’ll try overclocking and water cooling, or maybe I’ll just want a 12” GPU. The M1 is nearly as small as the SG05 without restricting my future options. And, as AFD points out, already bought. (AFD - Nice size comparison image!)

ON THE MOTHERBOARD (With questions):

(why) Z series motherboard when you don't plan on overclocking

... Then Gigabyte H87N-Wifi is like $120 (save $60).

The Gigabyte H87N-Wifi is a good suggestion! Thank you. I’m giving it serious consideration. Yes to WiFi.. Is overclocking the only reason one would buy the Asus Z87I over the Gigabyte H87N (for a gaming machine)? Both boards look like good choices. I have the following questions as I try to reach a decision. I welcome further discussion of this, unless the differences are minor and not worthy of further discussion.

• Slightly better audio chipset on the Asus board? Realtek ALC1150 vs Realtek ALC892. Maybe insignificant?
• A few more USB 3 ports on the ASUS, vs USB 2. Insignificant? Better for longevity?
• Both boards claim to have long life-span construction, but does one have higher quality construction?
• I think the wifi is hard wired onto the ASUS board instead of being a mini-PCI expansion. One review considered this an improvement over the 1155 ASUS equivalent. I may be misunderstanding this, not describing this correctly, or maybe it doesn’t matter.
• More fan connectors on the ASUS board. The Gigabyte board says it has only 1 fan header. Does that mean I couldn’t have 2x 120mm fans? Well, that would decide it for Asus, yes?
• Brand trust? More important than anything else is a computer that works.
• Will one have a cleaner/easier bios or setup? Less bloatware the company wants me to install? Asus likes bloatware, I don’t.

ON RAM
Guessing future RAM prices seems challenging even for an economist, and that does seem to be part of the decision equation. RAM can be upgraded later. $80 is significant, but won’t break the bank now. Since both 8GB and 16GB will work now, *How Much* RAM is less significant to me than *what type/brand* of RAM to get - which advice thus far is in agreement - so *that* is the most valuable point about RAM that I’ve taken from this thread.

ON THE PSU (with questions)

There's no need for the modular gold version. Since you'll use all 5 cables, there's no advantage of modularity. The non-modular is tidier unless you are making custom short cables. The $30 saving of the ST45SF over the ST45SF-G discounts any monthly energy bill saving for at least 5 years.

I love tidy! I had thought modular was tidier, but I take your point if I’m using all cables anyway. I admit I haven’t figured that part out yet. With a GPU listed as officially needing 500W, I thought that gold efficiency would be better? I really just want the computer to work and am risk-averse.

ON FANS

And you ask about case fans. Last year, a popular and respected French hardware review site did a scientific test of 63 of the most popular case fans.

LOL, reading assignment. Sincerely though, thanks. Haven’t had time to finish reading about fans. They are relatively inexpensive parts, so as long as they work well, I’ll be satisfied. The key information so far from the thread for me is that my intended configuration be correct (ie, two fans mounted on the side, blowing inward).

Again, my sincere thanks to you all.

 

[WiSK]

I think you are both overplaying the idea that DDR3 is about to become obsolete. When DDR3 came in 2006 it was still two years before it had even a 30% market share and another two years before it achieved market dominance compared to DDR2. If you bought your DDR2 in 2009 or 2010 then you had fair warning that it was about to be "replaced" and there was ample opportunity to buy a motherboard with DDR3. But as I said there is still no concrete plan for DDR4 on desktops. Since Broadwell might not even have DDR4 support on desktops (only mobiles and servers), it's possible that the transition might take until 2016 before it even gains a strong market foothold. Randomly google'd article: http://www.techhive.com/article/2034175/adoption-of-ddr4-memory-facing-delays.html

Also, while the current windows still offers a 32-bit version, it's more prudent for programmers to compile for the 32-bit address space, which is maximum 4GB per application. This is largely the reason most people give the advice that you don't need more than 8GB if you are just gaming. As you start to see more memory on GPUs, a lot of the textures and stuff can be moved there, and doesn't particularly need to also be in main memory all the time, just while loading a map or whatever. Although several recent games can use 64-bit address space, how many require it? Seven years after Microsoft released 64-bit Vista, how many current games are 64-bit only?

Sure it will happen, but it's not any kind of given fact that it's right around the corner. In 1985 Intel released the 80386 and I remember thinking I should learn 32-bit assembly in a hurry, but I was still writing code for 20-bit address space until 2002 (at least for two clients). In 1995 we didn't tell all our customers to rush out and buy Windows 95 just because it would be easier for us to program. Because we knew we'd alienate part of the market. So we just kept on using the workarounds that we'd used before (paging, swapping, more efficient ways of storing, better garbage collection, etc).

That's not to say that a new must-have game can't initiate a paradigm shift. For instance, Doom was released in 1993 and could only run on 32-bit machines. Lots of my friends at the time suddenly upgraded their machines just to be able to play this. And Tomb Raider I think was the one that really pushed the boat for 3D cards. I digress...

Still the best argument to not save the $65 is "with mITX where you only have 2 slots, which means replacing RAM when it comes to it" which is sound logic, but still assumes that there will be a point where Charlotte wants to play a game that is absolutely unplayable with "only" 8GB.

ninja'd !

TL;DR spend the money ($60 saved on H87 motherboard + $30 bronze PSU + $65 less RAM) on better GPU to enjoy now

ST45SF support list for GPUs: http://www.silverstonetek.com/downloads/PSU/GPU-supportlist.pdf lists GTX770 as compatible. Bronze/Gold doesn't matter to capacity, only efficiency.

 

[charww]

TL;DR spend the money ($60 saved on H87 motherboard + $30 bronze PSU + $65 less RAM) on better GPU to enjoy now

ST45SF support list for GPUs: http://www.silverstonetek.com/downloads/PSU/GPU-supportlist.pdf lists GTX770 as compatible. Bronze/Gold doesn't matter to capacity, only efficiency.

"TL;DR" - ROFL, that's fair. At this point, the discussion seems mostly about cost refinement than about fixing something that isn't broken, since I think the last build I posted is solid. Thank you for the PSU support list!

 

[Phuncz]

http://www.hardocp.com/article/2013/10/10/battlefield_4_beta_performance_preview/4

Initially we began testing with just 8GB of system memory in the review system. After a significant amount of gameplay, we were noticing that 8GB of memory may not provide enough space for the game. We were experiencing memory being swapped out to the hard drive in virtual memory, meaning we were exceeding 8GB of RAM and this was affecting our smoothness and performance.

Although this is a beta, this means something.

I haven't said DDR4 is going to be the only option in January, but production is already happening, with servers having DDR4 very soon and desktops following in 2014. Since all OEM's will go to DDR4 for most of their new computers, production will ramp up quickly. Don't underestimate this either. But in the past (I've been buying RAM since 16MB was "high-end") it has always proven to be more expensive to upgrade later when the type is about to change.

You also seem to not take two important aspects into consideration, one being that you're throwing away money because you can't sell your DDR3 later or the other being running single-channel until you upgrade (if you find the same stick in a few years).

 

[WiSK]

You also seem to not take two important aspects into consideration, one being that you're throwing away money because you can't sell your DDR3 later or the other being running single-channel until you upgrade (if you find the same stick in a few years).

Important is subjective.

You seem to be approaching this from getting a long lifetime out of a system, what is popularly called "future proofing". So for you this might include upgrading single parts of a build and you find that important.

Conversely, my experience has been that I've never upgraded RAM in 30 years. By the time the memory was not enough for me, the CPU and GPU and the rest of it were not good enough either.

So I think that's why we disagree. If I know that I'm going to buy a new system every one or two years anyway, I try to keep the total cost down instead of trying to bet against what might happen.

 

[Phuncz]

While I respect your opinion on the matter, as I've never been an advocate of blindly buying too much RAM, there are certainly times when it makes sense. Which in my opinion is in charww's situation, considering the aspects of DDR4 in the near future and the "difficulty" of upgrading an mITX later.

If I know that I'm going to buy a new system every one or two years anyway, I try to keep the total cost down instead of trying to bet against what might happen.

You're considering buying a system every one or two years, charww is planning on upgrading every three years or when needed:

ON COST: Current build is hitting approx $1250, which is the low end for a gaming laptop. This budget is comparable to what I would spend if I didn&#8217;t build my own SFF, and I will get better performance for the same price. I think it makes long-term fiscal sense to build my own, which can be upgraded in components every three years or as needed, instead of replacing the entire computer every 5-6 years.

Personally I agree with that reasoning because it's not really needed to fully upgrade a PC every few years anymore. Before my current system, I had a Core 2 Quad PC which held me over for about 5 years and I'm a self-proclaimed power user and gamer. It wasn't even needed, but considering I had some disposable income and I loved the Ncase so much, I went ahead and did it.

The Haswell she buys now will be able to hold her over for maybe the same amount of time, barring a GPU upgrade. The times PC's were completely obselete after a few years has come and gone.


I'd like to also point out charww's comments on the matter:

At this point, the discussion seems mostly about cost refinement than about fixing something that isn't broken, since I think the last build I posted is solid.

Since both 8GB and 16GB will work now, *How Much* RAM is less significant to me than *what type/brand* of RAM to get - which advice thus far is in agreement - so *that* is the most valuable point about RAM that I&#8217;ve taken from this thread.

 

[lutjens]

I plan to spend at least $2K on my M1 system, which I'm building as a strictly hobby system. Building for fun, instead of necessity and taking the time to make it perfect and enjoy working with such a gorgeous and well thought out case. Rather than simply slap it together and have a "good enough" system. I always do a very good job on my builds, but would like to take the time to "obsess" over this one. As I don't plan to use the system for anything specific, there won't be enormous time pressure (I'll be using my existing systems for day to day stuff).

BTW, I ordered two M1s...one to build with and one to keep as a spare for future use.

 

[WiSK]

BTW, I ordered two M1s...one to build with and one to keep as a spare for future use.

I liked the M1 a lot, but considering I've got a stack of old cases in the attic that I once thought were perfect and I would never need anything else, experience suggested not to buy two.

 

[AFD]

You also seem to not take two important aspects into consideration, one being that you're throwing away money because you can't sell your DDR3 later or the other being running single-channel until you upgrade (if you find the same stick in a few years).

I'm not sure the importance of running matched pairs in dual channel, but it really seems like the proper thing to do to avoid any issues. I am maxing out the ITX at 2x8GB from the start, for this reason.

Anyways, if it helps, I've been following pricing on the Crucial Ballistix Tactical LP 2x8GB (they're usually at least $20 more than the Ballistix Sport LP at any given moment), and pricing is indeed getting much worse..

Shortly after launch last fall, this SKU was sold for as low as $90; earlier this year it hovered around $140 and stayed that way for most of the summer; about a month ago (happened right before the Hynix fire) its MSRP jumped, and it's now available from Amazon & Newegg for as high as $175. That's nearly a doubling of price in 1 year!

So.. if you do decide to go for 16GB RAM from the start, and are getting Crucial low profile / low voltage, I'd jump at $150 or less for the Tactical LP or $130 or less for the Sport LP if they ever go on sale again. I feel kinda dumb for not buying back when the price was at least "reasonable", hoping it'd drop down near it's lowest price at some point.. really don't think that will ever happen.

 

[Phuncz]

Matched pairs is not really needed, but you want to have RAM from the same manufacturer and the same specs, which might be daunting in a few years since most RAM if not all is manufactured according to the chips offering best price. This means you might some day buy Brand X by Manufacturer A and a few months later you'd only come across Brand X by Manufacturer B. If there is too much of a difference in the more obscure specs (TAS, CAS, RP, ...), it might give compatibility issues ranging from lower speeds all the way to not booting.

 

[AFD]

Matched pairs is not really needed..

Thanks for the info! Yeah, I highly doubt I'd find another stick of low profile 1600MHz DDR3 running 8-8-8-24 at 1.35V out of the box, since Crucial appears to be the only one doing that at the moment. 9-9-9-24 at 1.35V seems to be just slightly more common between a couple manufacturers (not very, though).

Really don't see myself saving any money in the long run, with only the potential for headaches, if anything.

 

[AFD]

Optical DVD: External USB DVD $35.78 link ?

Just wanted to let you know that an update of that same model is available direct from Amazon LLC (instead of the 3rd party in your link) for a few bucks cheaper..

http://www.amazon.com/Samsung-Portable-External-SE-218CB-RSBS/dp/B00DBV28TG/

That particular model frequently goes on sale for $29 (it's that price now at Tiger Direct)