Navi Rumors

Discussion in 'AMD Flavor' started by _mockingbird, Aug 3, 2017.

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  1. Oldmodder

    Oldmodder Gawd

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    I have been thinking if new consoles are going to be made with navi inside, then surely either its not one of the first series of navi if they are only like V56 / 64 as i don't think those can run peoples games on a big ass 4K TV.
    Or AMD are messing with us ( while unloading all they can of older stuff ) and really drop a bomb.
    Cuz as others said if they release a part, that just match the competitions year old part, then they are still on the back heel, and i want AMD GFX division to be on the fore foot in a fast controlled fall ( running ) and so competing much stronger

    If only they can do on the GFX side what they did to Intel with the Rysen / threadripper / Epyc on the CPU side,,,,,, preferably a even harder hit.
     
  2. Auer

    Auer Gawd

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    "Consumer culture and marketing lies" are probably not the root of AMD's struggle to obtain more GPU market share.

    As mentioned above the lack of "Halo" products is neglect on AMD's part. And even a pretty weak mid tier atm.

    Will be interesting to see where in the lineup AMD decides to start as it needs to be an exceptional launch (or dirt cheap) to make any sizeable impact in a very nV dominated field.

    I don't think "Good Enough" is enough for AMD atm. Unless they have some kind of very long term slow build strategy and don't care about GPU profit for 7-8 years to come.
    Ryzen and console stuff probably can support a weak division for quite a while as long as the shareholders are onboard with that.
     
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  3. TheFlayedMan

    TheFlayedMan Limp Gawd

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    I find myself feeling pessimistic about Navi such that my predictions are Polaris +20%. Not sure what a 590 + 20% would equate too? Probably Vega 56 but with lower power consumption maybe.
     
  4. euskalzabe

    euskalzabe Gawd

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    Good point. I do consider the majority of marketing a bunch of lies, but maybe I should've said misdirection. Look at our 2080Ti! Good right? Well if you can't buy it our XYZ lower tier card is also amazing! There are however blatant lies from Nvidia, and I stopped trusting them 3 years ago when I bought a 1060 3gb. As far as I knew I was buying a 1060 with half the VRAM (was using a 1080p monitor back then so what did I care about hi-res textures... I do care now on a 4K screen, and will be buying a 8gb card next). Didn't take me long to find out that what I bought was a 1060 Minus, with less cores than the actual, real 1060. But they still had the balls to call it 1060. I guess that's just marketing and misdirection, but in my book, Nvidia lied to me about what they were selling me. This is not too different from what they pulled with the 970 VRAM situation. I've wised up ever since and learned that I can't trust Nvidia with what they tell me their product is. It's a big reason why I refuse to buy NV this time around and will only consider AMD. You don't slap the hand that pays you.

    See, I don't believe this for a second. I want this to be the world we live in, but the halo products you mentioned earlier have an effect. Oh the cool kids on youtube have the 2080Ti, but I can't spend that much money. Hey, I can buy that 1650 for cheap... buy it and I'll also be cool with a Geforce. Meanwhile the 570 costs less and performs vastly better but goes unsold. I don't think those consumers will buy AMD (and there are many in the uninformed masses), going back to the price-doesn't-matter argument. I agree that AMD need to figure out their marketing... they don't seem to be focused on it, sadly, so I have little hope. The fact that I'm actually counting on Intel to give Nvidia a good beating and return competition to GPUs is blowing my mind.
     
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  5. Snowdog

    Snowdog [H]ardForum Junkie

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    I did say: "No one doing any research at all". There are obviously people that will just buy on brand name, with no research. Though I do believe the RX570 will be outselling the 1650 in retail, unless NVidia drops the price a lot. OEM might be a different story, because retail price may be meaningless there.
     
  6. sirmonkey1985

    sirmonkey1985 [H]ard|DCer of the Month - July 2010

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    pretty much.. 590 is slightly faster than the 1060 6gb, rx 56 sits around the the 1070ti and over time has started creeping up on the 1080 as the drivers have been fine tuned. so if the 20% is right it would probably put it in the 2060/2070 area which doesn't sound too bad to me if they're able to significantly drop the power usage which they were able to do with radeon 7 no problem.
     
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  7. Snowdog

    Snowdog [H]ardForum Junkie

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    IIRC, in the review I saw, Radeon 7 was still drawing about the same power as Vega 64, but obviously with better performance.
     
  8. dragonstongue

    dragonstongue 2[H]4U

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    Even a
    crappy V56 would be like greased lightning chasing a similar proverbial pig simply due the fact it is a console A, they did a custom I think was V28 for some atari esque other box (forget name, it certainly was a standout one and very new though if recall right was using intel cpu with the vega the for the graphics making the APU of it all)

    anyways,
    V56 volt tuned clock optimized via die shrink would be immense beast performance wise a massive step up from what was in the { PS4/Xbox1 at their best ) when it is linked with Ryzen directly, power on tap and on the fly minimum power/heat
     
  9. sirmonkey1985

    sirmonkey1985 [H]ard|DCer of the Month - July 2010

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    it's all relative, the vega 64 got slaughtered by the 2080 still pulling more power, radeon 7 is neck and neck with the 2080 and pulls ~25w more than the 2080. i don't expect them to pull a nvidia g92 out of their ass and get stupid crazy performance while cutting power usage. but there's a whole hell of a lot of room to improve on polaris given they're pulling damn near vega 56 levels of power just to beat the 1060 6GB with the RX 590. so yeah if you can get vega 64 performance @ the same 225w i'd take that as a win on the efficiency side but if it costs you vega 64 amount of power to get the same performance as vega 64 then whats the point?


    consoles don't have the same API overhead that you see with PC's. games can also be fined tuned specifically to a set of hardware that won't change.. all you have to do is look at what they're pulling out of the xbox 1 X performance wise at 4k with a chip that could barely run 1440p if it was in a PC tied to a processor based on an architecture that is now 6 years old.
     
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  10. Oldmodder

    Oldmodder Gawd

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    I know nothing about consoles, outside of their general appearance and my hatred for their controllers.
    But if consoles will get near the performance of the best cards in the imminent batch, then to me it would not make much sense to make new models much slower than that for the PC market.
    Granted there are also a low end of the market, but that is / could also be filled just fine by current stock,,,,, at least for a while.

    I would also assume consoles would want to be able to run with higher quality settings in the games compared to the top of the line PC options. So if the imminent navi batch are mid / lower tier products it don't make much sense to me.
    Then again a stunning amount of things in this day and age baffle me.
     
  11. Auer

    Auer Gawd

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    The Vega 64 is a lesser value than the RTX 2070.

    Maybe Navi can fix that?
     
  12. _mockingbird

    _mockingbird Gawd

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    There are so many things wrong.

    GeForce GTX 1660 > Radeon RX 590 > Radeon RX 580 > GeForce GTX 1060

    GeForce GTX 2070 > GeForce GTX 1080 > Radeon RX Vega 64 > GeForce GTX 2060 > GeForce GTX 1070 Ti > Radeon RX Vega 56
     
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  13. Auer

    Auer Gawd

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    RTX2070, RTX2060 :p
     
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  14. Algrim

    Algrim [H]ard|Gawd

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    I remember when you were considering the 1060 but at the time were looking at the 6 GB version. If I'd known you were considering the 1060 3 GB I would have pointed out the weaknesses of the 3 GB edition, as I have before.

    I consider the situation between the 970 and 1060 to be a bit different. The 970 had much slower .5 GB (which I believe was disclosed) but also had less cores than documented. The 1060 had the amount of VRAM advertised as well as the correct amount of cores, as documented. Unfortunately, it was up to the buyer to find out that the core count was different between the two models but it wasn't an outright falsehood as it was with the 970.
     
  15. euskalzabe

    euskalzabe Gawd

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    Yeah, I hadn't decided to buy the 1060 yet, and then the 3GB version came out... I figured, OK, known performance, cheaper than the 6GB one and I don't need the extra VRAM for 1080p... so I purchased it without thinking more of it. And no, nowhere does the box say anything about the core count (see attached). The Newegg listing must have had it (it does right now, see attached), but of course, you're looking at 1060, you're not even thinking it would have a different core count, you're just checking that you're buying the 3GB model.

    This does not mean that AMD is free from this kind of practice, we've seen it done in China earlier this year. However, I've never seen AMD do this for a card launch, so I'd expect new Navi cards to be clearly differentiated with no shenanigans. I get that this is marketing, but calling 2 cards the same and not being the same components other than the specified difference... that's dishonest in my book, and not a practice I want to encourage with my wallet. Navi rumors have been changing in the past few months, but it does seem we'll get a low tier 4GB card and a higher 8GB card that will have different GPU cores (Navi 10, Navi 12 models) with Navi 20 reserved for later. At least the different Navi 10 models will be (according to AdoredTV) differentiated by the XT moniker.

    upload_2019-5-5_13-26-58.png

    Those are clear differences when you purchase. A 3070 is different from 3070 XT, same for 3080 vs 3080 XT, etc. Implying 1060 and 1060 were the same except VRAM, was a lie (and the 3GB is only a tiny little square icon on the sides of the box or a small line in the multi-language description, again minimizing a pretty fundamental element of this card... shenanigans level x1000). This box was clearly intended to obscure what they're selling you, if you look at the front, this card is called GTX 1060. Not 3GB or 6GB or whatever. Therefore, they are the same, except VRAM. Or so it appears.

    ur8b9oOInGLhzN4OsXa_HwQNlBzwirvAfAvCBqUC-wOZyRPZuFW9nKOW9iAfdcwF90GFBBGKmcFlRlkYG=w2595-h1947-no.jpg upload_2019-5-5_13-24-32.png d5K5gKfZjBEGSgDgyYq4AfL2vw-BJgCSoD4tUuMwqmoPnK7STuLVnYP5-jh2E_JRfOp6pY62m6rU663Ev=w1461-h1947-no.jpg

    Bottom line, they tricked me a couple years ago, but the end result is that I feel lied to and now they have lost me as a customer. Navi is looking like a much more transparent product for me to purchase confidently.
     

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  16. Snowdog

    Snowdog [H]ardForum Junkie

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    First arguing that AMD does right by citing rumors, makes little sense. They are rumors, and are looking increasingly wrong.

    Also AMD has played games with specs as well, like silently releasing a lower spec'd rx560 with the exact same name. After the full CU model was reviewed.

    https://www.anandtech.com/show/12122/amd-silently-lowers-radeon-rx-560-specifications

    This doesn't excuse NVidia for it's crappy and potentially misleading naming, but don't pretend AMD is lilly white on this.
     
  17. _mockingbird

    _mockingbird Gawd

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    WTF?

    This is screaming FAKE

    There won't be so many SKUs with performance so close together.
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2019
  18. euskalzabe

    euskalzabe Gawd

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    Uh... well, that's why I said:
    If you're going to criticize parts of my post, at least read it first...

    Hey, don't shoot the messenger. I'm not saying that's what's happening, but that's what AdoredTV shared this week, whether right or not. This is, after all, a Navi rumors thread.

    Here's the post:

     
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  19. TangledThornz

    TangledThornz Gawd

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    SONY picked Navi for a good reason for their PS5 so I expect it to be an extremely capable product.
     
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  20. Chimpee

    Chimpee [H]ard|Gawd

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    Yea, cause AMD can offered both CPU and GPU solution at a cheaper price.
     
  21. Auer

    Auer Gawd

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    Curious about that, what was the competition like for the PS5 contract?
     
  22. IdiotInCharge

    IdiotInCharge [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Yup. No one else had a single competitive solution, and AMD was financially destitute. And by competitive, I don't mean high-performing- about the only relatively innovative feature of the current generation of consoles was the increase in RAM. The CPUs and GPUs both were anemic at launch; at least this coming generation will have more contemporary tech.
     
  23. _mockingbird

    _mockingbird Gawd

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    That's classic clickbait.

    First, release a video showing things too good to be true

    Second, release a subsequent video that's all doom and gloom

    No matter how Navi actually turns out, old Jim got all the possibilities covered so he couldn't possibly be wrong.
     
  24. DooKey

    DooKey [H]ardness Supreme

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    He reeled in yet another lemming.
     
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  25. euskalzabe

    euskalzabe Gawd

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    Not that I'm in the business of defending youtubers, or that I even care, but he himself has said he's been wrong on parts of what he assumed.

    As far as I recall, I've only said that's part of the newest rumors, which I posted because of the nature of this thread. I've never said I believe a single word of it - in fact I don't believe for a second you'll get what he says for $200-250, it doesn't make sense when Nvidia is that much more expensive. Price won't get them marketshare as I've said before. I didn't think contributing to a rumors thread with another rumor that's floating around would make me a lemming. But go ahead, keep on insulting. That'll get you tons of friends.
     
  26. _mockingbird

    _mockingbird Gawd

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    His rumors now has Navi anywhere from worse than Vega to better than Turing.

    Who would have thought that Navi would be somewhere in there? /sarcasm
     
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  27. euskalzabe

    euskalzabe Gawd

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    Agreed, completely ignoring the fact that this may very well be an engineering sample and we have absolutely no idea if the card will have a 6, 8, 6+6 or 8+8 pin connector.
     
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  28. Snowdog

    Snowdog [H]ardForum Junkie

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    My link was from North America. It didn't just happen in China. You make it sound like NVidia is the devil because of this, but AMD only does it in foreign markets.
     
  29. euskalzabe

    euskalzabe Gawd

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    Oh man, way to nitpick. I said they both do it. China, US or Venus, if they do it it doesn't matter where. They're companies, they exist to make money, not friends. I don't prefer one over the other, because preferring companies is what idiots do. Now let's get back on topic.

    Yeah, it doesn't make sense, especially at the prices that are being mentioned. I'm not sure if these rumors make people forget everything up to that second or what, but you can't have crazy low prices AND suddenly better than Turing performance. It's one or the other, and Navi will most likely be neither: decent but not crazy low prices, decent but not crazy high performance. It'll be middle of the road, which is what AMD has been delivering for the past 5 years.
     
  30. Jandor

    Jandor Limp Gawd

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    Let's be clear on it. I had good hopes on AMD for Navi, because of Nvidia price policy, but how are the news about Navi.
    1) People are leaving AMD RTG, to joint Intel or simply leave. Especially those that seem to say Lisa Su has made bad options on RTG. Many people who worked on Vega are leaving, saying Lisa Su has decided not to update from Vega for Navi and this is going to be bad as a result.
    2) Super-long delay. No update for Raytracing for gaming. AMD said they already have GPUs compatible with DXR. Fact is Nvidia has pulled compatibility on Pascal and AMD still hasn't and it seems they can't actually or won't on Vega or Polaris. Now it is said Navi is not going to support Raytracing, but only on PS5 and Xbox (or whatever called). Later it is said future big replacement of Radeon VII, Navi 20 only, will support Raytracing on PC.
    3) Navi 10/12 are postponed to later 2019 and Navi 20 are postponed to later in 2020. The reason is Navi is not able to handle the specs AMD was counting on. Especially they have a way bigger TDP than expected and cannot raise their frequency as expected. Even worse, Navi 20, which is a huge GPU is so much crippled that it is not able to compete to Radeon VII, even if it uses that same 7nm tech.
    So we'll get Navi 12 and 10, which will have much higher TDP than expected. They announced 150W at most on Navi 10. Now, count on 250W or more for Navi 10 (leaks show two 8 pin connectors) , will lack raytracing and will be, even with a very close to Radeon VII size GPU on GDDR6, much much slower, actually close to RTX 2070 or Vega 64 at best. Even worse, Navi may be lacking FP16 of Vega 64 and FP64 units of Radeon VII, will have 56 compute units compared to 60 compute units on Radeon VII.
    Last leak from Adore TV and other that proved to be true in the past, says that Navi 20 is so bad that RTG hopes it will be able at launch to be on par with Radeon VII and maybe AMD will have to postpone Navi 20 to late 2020 and use 6nm EUV to make a better piece out of it. It is far too late to redesign the chip now !

    So they say Vega was bad. Wait for Navi before criticizing Vega, who is a actually a nice card for Workstations you won't get at Nvidia for the same price. That includes vega 56, 64 but especially Radeon VII.

    On the other hand Nvidia has made huge improvements on the raytracing and gaming GPU RTX 2060, 2070 and 2080. It is not very much adverted that the new chips produced for those cards are not the same than those launched, and are now very much improved (better than A chips) and will be sold much cheaper, because of huge improvements in yields. Wait for the new models to come out. Don't buy just now, but only at a slashed price.

    I think that Raja Koduri is now laughing at Lisa Su.
    I hope Intel stands against Nvidia because AMD is on the wrong track and will need years to eventually bring back interesting GPU on the market. Clearly with all those news and leaks, I won't wait for Navi. Just having to decide between Radeon VII and RTX 2080 Ti or RTX 2070. RTX 2070 has only 8GB, Ti is ultra-expensive, and Radeon lacks Raytracing but has everything else, including a nice price. Eventually AMD will take some time and make a DXR driver for Radeon VII.
     
  31. Snowdog

    Snowdog [H]ardForum Junkie

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    I'm not the one ranting about how one compnay is evil. I am saying they are both the same.

    I only brought it up because your treatment of each was far from equal, you have several posts ranting about "blatant lies" from NVidia, over and over. It gets tedious. Then you make one offhand mention of AMD doing something in China, and then act like you are being even handed.

    You are the one who needs to check his obvious bias at the door.
     
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  32. NKD

    NKD [H]ardness Supreme

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    Damn. Talk about assuming everything. I stopped reading after number 2. I didn’t know you knew everything about Navi and future of amd and Lisa is so bad. Rofl.

    Raja laughing at Lisa? Lisa fuckin saved AMD. She saved the CPU side and she will save the GPU side. Raja really doesn’t have shit on Lisa.
     
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  33. Maddness

    Maddness [H]ard|Gawd

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    She certainly did on the CPU side of things. It's the GPU side that now needs a huge injection of cash. I'm have very very high hopes for RyZen 2 and that will make that come true.
     
  34. _mockingbird

    _mockingbird Gawd

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    Navi is a stopgap on the way to AMD replacing GCN

    The money is there. AMD just don't want to drop a lot of it on a stopgap.

    It's the same reason that AMD doesn't want to drop a lot of money on Excavator.
     
  35. funkydmunky

    funkydmunky 2[H]4U

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    I do not think AMD's current GPU system is the equivalent of Excavator. If it is then it would only reflect of Nvidia's inability to capitalize. GCN seemingly has the ability to keep rising from the ashes with some sort of competitive product, in spite of it never being a stripped down low power gaming oriented product. Navi 10 won't be groundbreaking but it will shore up some of the deficiencies that exist compared to Nvidia products atm.
     
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  36. euskalzabe

    euskalzabe Gawd

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    Just posting this here because this guy is elaborating on AdoredTV's latest rumors on Navi + Nvidia's possible reaction. I'm not a big fan of him because while sometimes he seems to make some neutral sense, often he just rants about Nvidia with no other apparent purpose. Still, fuel for the flames. If the 2060 were to drop to $250 (price at which it should've launched, although I highly doubt Nvidia will cut prices that much) that'd make it a worthy purchase vs AMD. I'd rather have HW based raytracing than software. If price cuts are in the cards, I wouldn't expect any lower than $300, assuming Navi releases at $250.

     
    Last edited: May 6, 2019
  37. Bawjaws

    Bawjaws Limp Gawd

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    I don't think Nvidia will make any price cuts unless they are forced to. Part of the reason for that is because significant price cuts to the 2060, for example, would have to cascade down the product stack.
     
  38. c3k

    c3k 2[H]4U

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    I am girding myself to be so disappointed in Navi, that instead of buying 2 or 3 of them (my sig shows how outdated my GPUs are...), I'll toss in some stopgap Nvidia cards if Navi is a dud.
     
  39. Fremunaln

    Fremunaln [H]Lite

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    well if its true, then that sucks. While one can look for the "Zen" to be post GCN/navi, I`d wager the only competitor that might shake up stuff at this point will be intel. Those inital AdoredTV leaks were certainly stunning.
     
  40. _mockingbird

    _mockingbird Gawd

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    What are you going to be "disappointed" about?

    That it doesn't match Adored's hoax?

    That's what happens when your expectations are based on lies.
     
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