My theory

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computerpro3

LightningRod
Joined
Mar 29, 2003
Messages
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After using Windows a long time, I recently bought a Macbook Air ultimate and decided to give OSX Lion a shot.

Now, I'm not experienced with Snow Leopard so keep that in mind - all of my comments reflect lion.

That being said, I now understand why people in general say OsX is easier to use than windows.

Browsing. Far and away, the multi-touch gestures make web browsing absolutely wonderful. I browse on my 11 inch Air instead of my desktop with the 24 inch screen just because I love the trackpad integration so much. It's actually more efficient than using a mouse.

All 99% of people do on their computer is web browse, and it really is just easier on a Mac. I think that this single application, however is coloring their perception of ease of use as a whole.

On the flip side, literally every single other aspect of the operating system is less efficient than Windows. Give me a task - any task - and it actually takes longer, with more button presses or clicks to accomplish in OsX than Windows 7. Some of the stuff just blows my mind how inefficient it is. Why do half the keyboard shortcuts require three keys to do something simple? How come it re-opens all of my windows automatically after a restart and more importantly HOW IS IT POSSIBLE THAT YOU CAN'T CONFIGURE THIS BEHAVIOR ON AN APP BY APP BASIS? Watching porn? I certainly hope not because the next time your kid uses your browser it will open right back up.

How about Spaces? A great concept that could have proved far more useful than Windows, but they totally screwed it up by making it impossible to not only re-arrange windows, but to put a fullscreen app on the left side. This is probably the most retarded thing I've ever seen. Instead of having a nicely symmetrical layout where I can have iTunes on the left and Safari on the right (or whatever it is), everything just keeps opening to the right. So eventually you have to swipe nine times just to get to the window, instead of half that if you could balance them on both left and the right.

This one blows my mind - maybe it's just me missing something, but even if I am that shoots the whole "easier to use" thing down. On a mac, the traditional way to lock a screen is ctrl shift eject. Well, on the Air there is no eject button. And there is no screen lock option in the menu. Seriously? How can I lock the screen on my Air?

Why doesn't the delete key actually delete anything?

How come the Green + button is completely useless and random?

How come there is not "cut" function in finder? This alone causes things to take far longer than windows. (I'm aware of holding down the command key - this only works half the time, with no rhyme or reason).

How come enter renames things?

How come the most important trackpad options (drag lock, etc) are located under Accessibility instead of Trackpad? (this kind of thing happens all the time)

How come I can't snap windows to resize?

How come fullscreen implementation is completely random and half the time I can't access the top menu bar when in fullscreen mode?

In windows 7, I can not only view all open applications at all times via the task bar, but I can switch to any of them with one click. With OsX, this requires at least a three finger swipe and then choosing an app. Again, inefficient.

On top of this, I'm finding bugs like crazy. My new tab "+" button in Safari is always missing when I open a new tab, and won't come back until I switch to another tab and go back. Installing AdBlock made my cursor hard lock and I had to do a hard reboot. Safari Omnibar won't persist of "reopen screens upon reboot" is enabled. You could just say switch to another browser, but none of them have multi-touch like Safari which is the entire point of Os X as far as I'm concerned.

It really is a shame, because I absolutely love browsing on Os X. I just don't understand how anyone can possibly say that the workflow is better on a Mac though, or that they are easy to use. Things are not logically arranged, and extremely obvious features that would make the experience much better are seemingly purposefully omitted.

Am I doing something wrong or missing something? Are there ways to rearrange spaces or lock my screen? If you know of any please let me know.

Is this all because of Lion and should I try to put Snow Leopard on here?
 
Sounds like you have 2 big problems.

First one being, (as a mac user) lion was released at the wrong time. I think they should have fixed a lot of bugs before releasing it, and thus, wait for updates.

The second one, is you are used to windows, so your idea of efficiency is different. People who have been using macs don't complain about snapping windows to re-size, or different keyboard shortcuts. Most of the things you have complaints about are personal preference issues. When I got my first PC I complained about the things you're complaining about missing. I LIKE that hitting enter renames things. Lol.
 
ranviper said:
Sounds like you have 2 big problems.

First one being, (as a mac user) lion was released at the wrong time. I think they should have fixed a lot of bugs before releasing it, and thus, wait for updates.

The second one, is you are used to windows, so your idea of efficiency is different. People who have been using macs don't complain about snapping windows to re-size, or different keyboard shortcuts. Most of the things you have complaints about are personal preference issues. When I got my first PC I complained about the things you're complaining about missing. I LIKE that hitting enter renames things. Lol.
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I'm not complaining about different shortcuts. I'm complaining about longer ones. Snapping windows to resize is a simple matter - on mac, it takes four times as long as Windows to resize a window to half screen.

IT has nothing to do with being used to windows, and everything to do with things taking longer to do even if I do them "the mac way."

How can you explain the lack of "cut" or "move" in finder and not being able to put full screen apps on the left side of spaces?
 
Actually Windows has plenty of multi-touch features built in, use them to surf all the time on my Windows tablets. And then there are tons of 3rd party mouse gesture add-ons that can at a lot of capability. I'm not a Mac user but I think you're point about web browsing just being easier on OS X is overlooking a lot of things.
 
Sorry heatlesssun, multitouch browsing blows in win7 compared to mac. There are a fraction of the gestures, and to get anything decent enabled on a non-tablet you have to install hacked drivers for shitty synptics trackpads. Trust me, I spent tons of time trying to get everything working on my thinkpad.

The macbook trackpad is in a different league both hardware and software wise.
 
Try Snow Leopard. I think it will eliminate most of your issues. The green + button is annoying though I will give you that.

I use OSX on my laptops and Windows on my Desktop. After about 2 years using OSX (I've used 10.5 and 10.6) I like it in everyday use better than windows but WIndows does do somethings better
 
computerpro3 said:
Sorry heatlesssun, multitouch browsing blows in win7 compared to mac. There are a fraction of the gestures, and to get anything decent enabled on a non-tablet you have to install hacked drivers for shitty synptics trackpads. Trust me, I spent tons of time trying to get everything working on my thinkpad.

The macbook trackpad is in a different league both hardware and software wise.
Click to expand...

I'll concede that Mac trackpads are better (personally I don't care for trackpads in general but I've not used Macs enough to say that I would like the experience there) but your criticism of web browsing seemed to go beyond just trackpads and you were saying that browsing with a trackpad on a Mac was better than a mouse in Windows. That's something that I disagree with simply because there are all kinds of different mice and buttons and utilities that provide tremendous amounts of flexibility. I can scroll, go backwards and forwards, even zoom with mouse using buttons without having to even move the mouse and at the quick touch of a button.

When it comes to actually using a touch enabled device (my primary mobile computer is a ThinkPad x220 Tablet and I use the touchscreen all the time while web browsing even in laptop mode, very nice for scrolling) the multi-touch web browsing experience on a trackpad is so different from a multi-touch screen that comparing the two is very difficult, they are different animals. I've gotten so in the habit of just touching the screen on my tablets over the years that I find myself doing it on conventional screens.
 
computerpro3 said:
I'm not complaining about different shortcuts. I'm complaining about longer ones. Snapping windows to resize is a simple matter - on mac, it takes four times as long as Windows to resize a window to half screen.

IT has nothing to do with being used to windows, and everything to do with things taking longer to do even if I do them "the mac way."

How can you explain the lack of "cut" or "move" in finder and not being able to put full screen apps on the left side of spaces?
Click to expand...

If one keystroke more in only some of the shortcuts you use on a regular basis is SO much more than you can handle, either don't use a mac, or don't be lazy.

I have never used cut or move in windows anyways. I use copy (and backspace if needbe) and paste.

Also, anytime I've ever need 2 windows side by side, I just move one over, I don't need to re-size it to fit the screen just perfect due to OCD. I rarely use lion's fullscreen feature, so that's not an issue.

Like I said, most of your issues ARE INDEED personal preference. Your opinion is that it's wrong. Many people find switching to windows just as irritating. Only reason I use it is for my gaming PC.

However, I still prefer OSX. My opinion. Not fact.

^ I'm not trying to be a douche or be offensive, I'm just being blunt.
 
Get the cinch app. I love the win7 aero half expansion features and was annoyed at work when trying to do some multi-tasking. Found cinch and it does exactly what I wanted it to do
 
When it's all said and done it's simply a matter of preference and experience. I really doubt that an experienced user who understands all the options and tools on either system is overall any more productive and happy than the other. Sure there will always be point by point strengths and weaknesses but then a great deal of stuff on Windows or OS X or Linux ain't all that different either.
 
heatlesssun said:
When it's all said and done it's simply a matter of preference and experience. I really doubt that an experienced user who understands all the options and tools on either system is overall any more productive and happy than the other. Sure there will always be point by point strengths and weaknesses but then a great deal of stuff on Windows or OS X or Linux ain't all that different either.
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Exactly what I am trying to say.
 
They both just have different philosophies. Mac makes a lot of the simple user's tasks simple at the expense of other tasks harder. Hence why a lot of simple users LOVE macs. A lot of people just simply dont use their computers for much.

IMO windows is easier to be productive on through a normal workday, but I do recognize the difference and how some might prefer the mac way.
 
better touch tool lets you snap to the edges

no cut in finder IS stupid

spaces is screwed up in lion, I won't upgrade from SL because of how they messed with it

fn + delete = delete; delete = backspace (you'll get used to it)

enter renames things because that's how it is. how come windows makes you right click and then hit rename from a menu?

fullscreen is random because its new and not all apps are created equal

one quick tip to enhance efficiency: cmd + space and then type the name of any file, folder, or app and it will come up and launch. I can launch everything on my mac way faster than my windows machine.

the typical mac owner cycle goes like this: extreme love, big letdown, slowly learn to love it long term. keep with it and it'll grow on you.
 
It's largely a tradeoff or matter of personal preference.

No cut in finder, but instead it has drag+drop. I actually prefer drag+drop because I don't have to touch the keyboard in order to move stuff. 75% of the time I don't have a hand on the keyboard because I like to lean back on my chair.

Fullscreen sucks. I actually like Lion spaces more, but I'm in the minority here. Windows re-opened on shutdown also sucks, but after a while I just learned to uncheck the box before turning it off & it doesn't bother me anymore.
 
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AVT said:
No cut in finder, but instead it has drag+drop. I actually prefer drag+drop because I don't have to touch the keyboard in order to move stuff. 75% of the time I don't have a hand on the keyboard because I like to lean back on my chair.
Click to expand...

Not sure if I get your point here, why would you need to use the keyboard to move stuff in Explorer?
 
shoota said:
Blasphemy! How dare you not choose sides! What are you, mature and pragmatic?
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Exactly, use what works for YOU. I have issues generally with both sides of the great Mac vs PC debate. I think a lot of Apple bashers overstate the cost of most Apple hardware as for what it is which is very good midrange consumer level hardware its reasonably priced outside of the Mac Pro.

As for Mac loving Windows bashers I don't think they appreciate that Windows has evolved anything else and made some very big strides in security and stability over the last decade. The only reason that OS X is "more secure" is simply because far less malware is developed for it by design, not because OS X would stand up any better and probably worse at the same level of malware development effort.
 
I am going to throw my $0.02 in here. After using a Mac in college for 3 years, Lion completely ruined my experience with Mac OSX. I felt myself turning off the useless features like "continue where left off" or whatever that is. I felt I was doing everything I could to go back to Snow Leopard. I reformatted my drive and went back to Snow Leopard and couldn't be happier. Lion was definitely NOT the "most revolutionary operating system," I think Steve Jobs was just high on his meds when he said that.
 
I agree about the full screen app functionality being stupid. Also for some damn reason if you do this when having it connected to another screen (2 screens total) it expands to one and leaves the other one completely useless.

(Lion here).

I completely disagree on preference when it comes to certain things such as full screen behaviors. (Full screen making the second screen useless is absurd.)
 
heatlesssun said:
Exactly, use what works for YOU. I have issues generally with both sides of the great Mac vs PC debate. I think a lot of Apple bashers overstate the cost of most Apple hardware as for what it is which is very good midrange consumer level hardware its reasonably priced outside of the Mac Pro.

As for Mac loving Windows bashers I don't think they appreciate that Windows has evolved anything else and made some very big strides in security and stability over the last decade. The only reason that OS X is "more secure" is simply because far less malware is developed for it by design, not because OS X would stand up any better and probably worse at the same level of malware development effort.
Click to expand...

Amen brother.
 
martinmsj said:
I agree about the full screen app functionality being stupid. Also for some damn reason if you do this when having it connected to another screen (2 screens total) it expands to one and leaves the other one completely useless.

(Lion here).

I completely disagree on preference when it comes to certain things such as full screen behaviors. (Full screen making the second screen useless is absurd.)
Click to expand...

Read my previous post. It doesnt.
 
I think part of the OP's problem is that he started his mac experience on Lion- by far and away the worst OSX release in recent times.

Most of his complaints are not native to new Windows switchers, they are also complaints from longtime Mac users about Lion too (example the auto-restore "feature", badly implemented full-screen support, change from "spaces" to "mission control", etc).

The rest are mainly small quirks that are just different about using Macs. Using Enter to rename things is no more or less valid than using F2 in windows- it's just different than what you're used to, and it goes both ways. For example, why is there no keyboard shortcut to create a new folder in Windows? Or, why is it so hard to take a screenshot in Windows?

Personally I find spotlight and quicklook to be 2 features of OSX that really improve usability, and aren't available on Windows (at least in my experience- I have largely moved away from Windows in the past several years). Spotlight is more than just a search function, in fact I use it most often to do calculations because it's so fast to access. Quicklook makes browsing through files super fast, since it's instant and doesn't require any application to launch.

Ruahrc
 
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Ruahrc said:
Personally I find spotlight and quicklook to be 2 features of OSX that really improve usability, and aren't available on Windows (at least in my experience- I have largely moved away from Windows in the past several years). Spotlight is more than just a search function, in fact I use it most often to do calculations because it's so fast to access. Quicklook makes browsing through files super fast, since it's instant and doesn't require any application to launch.

Ruahrc
Click to expand...

The functionality of Spotlight and Quicklook are basically in Windows 7 via Windows Search and the Preview Pane. Not a Mac user so I don't know all of the differences but the bulk of the major stuff is pretty much the same on both systems I believe.
 
ranviper said:
Read my previous post. It doesnt.
Click to expand...

It does. I can't have two windows (one being maximized on the other) from two different programs let alone one when I'm working with Office online and viewing reference material in another safari tab. I have Safari tabs open and yet every time I try to drag one to the external display all it does is create another full screen space on the notebook display. What's even worse is that Lion refuses to go full screen on the external display and leave the smaller screen useless.

The worse sin of it all is if once you've tried in vain to have make tabs open on the external full screen is when you exit full screen mode it leaves the other two full screen tabs in their own spaces rather then bringing them all back. Arrrrgggh.


One particular application letting you drag components makes OSX full screen anything but fully functional. I'm not even sure you read that article that puts the blame on the applications themselves. Regardless, at the end of the day, Lion's "Full Screen" feature makes my HP 2335 at work useless. (When I'm working in OSX, bootcamp into W7 development.)
 
I'm not sure if you have read any of my opinions, but I do in-fact think lion was released before it was ready. But I also think you need to consider the fact that because of the this, the app developers now have to cope with it and integrate the fullscreen feature into their apps, and like I said, give it some updates. But the fact is solutions are somewhat available and in the works.

Regardless, as previously stated, your opinion does not make the OS bad.
 
Nope, the OS makes the OS bad.
Although I am starting to warm up to it a little after doing a BUNCH of tweaking to the settings.
I'm speaking solely in terms of a very general user i.e. browsing, music, light photo work and not speaking in terms of a productivity machine. I don't think Lion is ready for that yet.
 
An update after using the system for a while.

As I stated earlier, I'm really trying to keep it as my primary laptop OS due to the 45min extra battery life. After a ridiculous amount of tweaking I have it running decently.

Browsing continues to be great. iPhoto and iMovie are much better than built in Windows stuff, though there are a few non-logical things. How come iMovie can't import video from my Canon T2i but iPhoto can? Still though, the light picture/video editing experience is heads and shoulders above windows. Facebook integration is sweet. Pro stuff is the same since if I want to get serious I don't use iPhoto or iMovie anyway - I use Photoshop and Premiere.

On the surprising side, I'm still getting a good deal of instability. Quicktime crashes constantly when watching topgear - maybe three or four times per episode. Tried both mkv and mp4.

I've bought a few apps from the app store. About 1/2 of them work. I have about $30 in non-functional apps due to lion and there was no warning about compatibility before I bought. Growlvoice is the most annoying. The developer has had a fix under review by apple for a WEEK. Not cool, Apple.

Spaces still suck. Fullscreen still sucks.

Whoever said taking a screenshot on windows is difficult doesn't know what they're talking about. Just press printscreen. Done.

I don't understand the hype about Spotlight. It's exactly equivalent to the Windows 7 "Run" dialogue box. Including launching apps and everything.
 
OS X is not better. It's different. You like different or not. Lion is a step backwards in some salient ways but it's defo not Vista-pre-SP1-crippled.

The hardware on the other hand - piece of ****.
 
computerpro3 said:
An update after using the system for a while.

As I stated earlier, I'm really trying to keep it as my primary laptop OS due to the 45min extra battery life. After a ridiculous amount of tweaking I have it running decently.

Browsing continues to be great. iPhoto and iMovie are much better than built in Windows stuff, though there are a few non-logical things. How come iMovie can't import video from my Canon T2i but iPhoto can? Still though, the light picture/video editing experience is heads and shoulders above windows. Facebook integration is sweet. Pro stuff is the same since if I want to get serious I don't use iPhoto or iMovie anyway - I use Photoshop and Premiere.

On the surprising side, I'm still getting a good deal of instability. Quicktime crashes constantly when watching topgear - maybe three or four times per episode. Tried both mkv and mp4.

I've bought a few apps from the app store. About 1/2 of them work. I have about $30 in non-functional apps due to lion and there was no warning about compatibility before I bought. Growlvoice is the most annoying. The developer has had a fix under review by apple for a WEEK. Not cool, Apple.

Spaces still suck. Fullscreen still sucks.

Whoever said taking a screenshot on windows is difficult doesn't know what they're talking about. Just press printscreen. Done.

I don't understand the hype about Spotlight. It's exactly equivalent to the Windows 7 "Run" dialogue box. Including launching apps and everything.
Click to expand...

You sir seriously need to ditch lion.

I converted to MAC full time a few months ago and went through getting adjusted, and now that I am it's a ton better in efficiency than Windows! Plus, like you mentioned the experience is much nicer.

I tested Lion, my friends have/had Lion and it's a wrong step for MAC at least in my opinion. I probably would have went back to Win7!
 
I still feel FAR more efficient in windows. Hell just working in the file system is way easier in windows. Finder drives me nuts. None of the replacements fix all the issues I have with it.
At first it was neat and it was exciting discovering new things but the annoyances crop up and I find myself wanting to use windows more and more. I can just do the things I need to do faster and with less headaches in windows as I do work so much in the file system.

I don't like working with photos in OSX. The way it imports them drives me nuts so I have to go about a manual route. It doesn't even recognize my camcorder. imovie is not importing content from iphoto. I greatly prefer picasa so good thing it's available on OSX.
I understand everyones needs and wants are different and what one person likes another person may not and that's fine. I'm just thinking more and more of selling my imac. Even my wife has had enough of it with her photo work.
 
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ranviper said:
But I also think you need to consider the fact that because of the this, the app developers now have to cope with it and integrate the fullscreen feature into their apps, and like I said, give it some updates.
Click to expand...

And the first "app developer" that should make those updates is Apple. If they chose to implement full-screen backend in this manner, they should at least update their apps to utilize it properly. Fullscreening Safari on a dual display should not cover the secondary display with a totally useless and non-functional linen sheet. At least leave it available to show desktop, or other windows, anything.

Or, they could have put some thought into the fullscreen API and had it so that when an app goes fullscreen, it just takes up the screen it's on, none of this "bring it to the main display and block off everything else" stuff. According to Apple, it "works as designed" but the problem is that it was just designed badly.

computerpro3 said:
Whoever said taking a screenshot on windows is difficult doesn't know what they're talking about. Just press printscreen. Done.
Click to expand...

But pressing printscreen on Windows 7 just copies it to the clipboard.* You're not done. Gotta open up your favorite graphics application (or if you don't have one, paint) and paste it in, then save it as a file (and if you're using aforementioned paint, are stuck with .bmp format or a terribly compressed jpeg). On OSX, it's cmd+shift+3. Done. As in actually done. PNG file (or files, one for each monitor in multiscreen setups) on your desktop.

*-unless this has changed since WinXP, which a quick google search seems to indicate that it has not.

Ruahrc
 
The fact is lion was a bomb, yes, but osx overall is NOT. It is certainly no vista by any means, and if it's such a hassle to the user, the simple solution is so switch back to SL. At least you only spend 30 bucks instead of over a hundred to upgrade the OS, and when the updates fix things, you have easy access to reupgrade.
 
Ruahrc said:
On OSX, it's cmd+shift+3. Done. As in actually done. PNG file (or files, one for each monitor in multiscreen setups) on your desktop.

Ruahrc
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omg that's amazing, i can't believe i didn't know about this shortcut before. so awesome, thank you.
 
shoota said:
omg that's amazing, i can't believe i didn't know about this shortcut before. so awesome, thank you.
Click to expand...

Skitch is about 100x more useful, free, and social sharing, etc. give it a try.

Finder does need work, file work, sorting, etc, is a pain in OSX coming from Windows.
Total Finder made it a bit better.

I do not use iTunes for Music. I do not use iPhoto/iMovie.

Basically - don't assume everything MAC is awesome because you like the way it looks, and ease of use. I've run into almost all the same issues I had on my Windows systems at one point or another, and they can be just as frustrating. (Even hardware issues causing crashes/freezes, and reboots... so like windows)

If windows wasn't so square, had so much dead/wasted space, had a good launch system, multiple desktops I'd have no problem keeping windows but as someone who's working 10+hr days MAC is much more "Friendly" for efficiency, and organization. Coming from Windows it's taken MONTHS of daily use to get full integrated with OSX itself.

If like me you are using Win and MAC trying to migrate you should stop now.
Try using OSX only and not taking easy way out via Windows. I had to do this, and it made night and day difference. I also bought MS Office for MAC and then returned it and got iWork which I actually like but still use Windows Office in VMWare occasionally to do quick things.

Realistically you've probably used windows as long as me and now going to MAC and get efficient, and understand it in a week or two or a month... Your coming from YEARS of muscle memory, and experience and mixing it up. Take time, get used to it, but get deep into it :)

Best of luck.
 
ToddW2 said:
Skitch is about 100x more useful, free, and social sharing, etc. give it a try.

Finder does need work, file work, sorting, etc, is a pain in OSX coming from Windows.
Total Finder made it a bit better.

I do not use iTunes for Music. I do not use iPhoto/iMovie.

Basically - don't assume everything MAC is awesome because you like the way it looks, and ease of use. I've run into almost all the same issues I had on my Windows systems at one point or another, and they can be just as frustrating. (Even hardware issues causing crashes/freezes, and reboots... so like windows)

If windows wasn't so square, had so much dead/wasted space, had a good launch system, multiple desktops I'd have no problem keeping windows but as someone who's working 10+hr days MAC is much more "Friendly" for efficiency, and organization. Coming from Windows it's taken MONTHS of daily use to get full integrated with OSX itself.

If like me you are using Win and MAC trying to migrate you should stop now.
Try using OSX only and not taking easy way out via Windows. I had to do this, and it made night and day difference. I also bought MS Office for MAC and then returned it and got iWork which I actually like but still use Windows Office in VMWare occasionally to do quick things.

Realistically you've probably used windows as long as me and now going to MAC and get efficient, and understand it in a week or two or a month... Your coming from YEARS of muscle memory, and experience and mixing it up. Take time, get used to it, but get deep into it :)

Best of luck.
Click to expand...

was that whole post aimed at me? cuz i'm not unfamiliar with os x or windows.. i use both all the time and i don't have any problem switching between the two at will.
 
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