my plans...and I need YOUR opinion =]

D

Darkala

Limp Gawd
Joined
Nov 8, 2005
Messages
490
Alright what I need is a 100% no bullshit assessment of this situation.

Ok I have had a passion for computers since I was 7 and I am now 21. I did not however go to college when I graduated as the funds werent available. I now work 11pm to 7 am doing CNC machining work on airplane parts. Its time for a carreer change because top pay in my trade is about 42,000 which im close to now.

So I heard this ad on the radio about computertraining.com and their MCSE course, and i checked it out and it takes 6 months, 2 days a week. This sounds good to me. The cost is about 24,500 which I honestly wouldn't mind paying if the following occurs

I start out in a job making about 45,000 a year
The MCSE is even worth getting, as a start into the industry

so thats what i want, am i on the right track guys?

I am not a noob to server systems although I will admit ive only messed around in windows 2003 as I prefer OpenBSD. The training place said they help place you in a job and all that bullshit...what im looking for are people with MCSE to respond and tell me if it is worth getting, and if having just a MCSE is going to get me the type of job im looking for, which starting out would hopefully be a network admin assistant or something similar, as opposed to help desk level 1.

thanks guys, ill check on this soon
 
getting that job with 0 work experience in the IT field is going to be a challenge I assure you.

Its a rough time in the industry right now, people with BS degrees are doing help desk work.
 
I would look into CCNA/CCNP. Im doing CCNA now and A+, but really any certs will just help you out. Only bad thing about CCNA is that it only lasts 3 years, which means you need to renew your cert every 3 years. A+ i belive lasts forever. Not to sure on MCSE and how long they last.

CCNA is a pretty easy if you a good study type of person. The mod exams are online and study material is on their website when you become a member. Shows your test grades and stuff you need to study.

When i look at the local job market, i see tons of Cisco jobs that need ccna people, they require CCNA and A+ for the most part.
 
Highlife said:
I would look into CCNA/CCNP. Im doing CCNA now and A+, but really any certs will just help you out. Only bad thing about CCNA is that it only lasts 3 years, which means you need to renew your cert every 3 years. A+ i belive lasts forever. Not to sure on MCSE and how long they last.

CCNA is a pretty easy if you a good study type of person. The mod exams are online and study material is on their website when you become a member. Shows your test grades and stuff you need to study.

When i look at the local job market, i see tons of Cisco jobs that need ccna people, they require CCNA and A+ for the most part.
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passing CCNA would not be a problem, I can just do it sometime while taking this MCSE stuff. MCSE lasts forever, but when new software comes out you need to upgrade for example nt4/200/2003.... supposedly theres like 280,000 MCSE2000 but only 40,000 MCSE2003....

Yeah, A+ and CCNA are definately something I can do on my own without a problem.
 
1 - The school you are looking at sounds like a cert-mill. This is bad. Find out how long they have been open. Do some digging.
2 - Their time frame for certification sounds rushed. You will probably be learning a lot of new material. I would expect 12-18 months if you are learning from scratch.
3 - ~25k for MSCE traing sounds very high. But, this depends on what part of the country you are in. When I looked at MCSE2000 training in 2001, it was 10k.
3 - With no experience, it will be hard to land a job as an administrator. With a couple years experience and just a MCSE, you could hit the ~45k mark depending on where you live. Salary.com has decent tools to compare accross the country.
4 - Diversify your "portfolio". Get non-MS certs as well.
5 - Look into an associates degree as well.
6 - Depending on your current skill level, you might be able to self-study to get your A+, Net+, and CCNA. This would be a good starting place to getting the higher level certs such as MCSE and CCNP.
 
$24,500 for an MCSE certification, IMHO that is an extremely poor use of funds. Anyone with half a brain and a little motivation can get their MCSE with self study, especially over a 6 month period...

The only certification I would even consider spending that kind of money on is a CCIE (Voice, Routing and Switching, etc.) and the majority of that money would be spent on LAB equipment...

That is my no B.S. answer...
 
Hey there,

If you are going the online route for training, I would make sure I had some hardware to work with at home. You will need a good amount of "hands on" experience with Microsoft to pass their tests. I hold and MCSE/MCSA on 2k and 2003. I can also speak on the Cisco track as I have CCNA/CCNP and teach CCNP at a local college.

That is a lot of money to spend for training, so make sure you do some leg work and make sure they are right for you. Since you seem to work at night, why not find a local tech school or training center that can offer you the same? I'm all for online, but make sure you can practice what you learn. Look into buying the books for the track and look through them yourself first. You will be surprised what you can learn by yourself. Most of my knowledge has been me taking the intiative to learn it on my own.

It seems nobody wants to work helpdesk anymore, but it's going to be hard to avoid if you are just starting out. Since you don't have a degree, you might not have a choice in the matter. Don't be discouraged though, there are plenty of jobs in this market. You may have to sacrifice pay to get experience at first, but in the end your goal pay seems very reasonable.

If you are willing to put in the time, you may want to look into getting a BS degree first. My company hires them right out of school with no experience. Certifications are great to have, but If you are willing to pay for a BS degree, you may get better results in the beginning. If it were me, I would spend 24k on a BS degree (and I have) before MCSE. Microsoft isnt that hard to learn on the side (Cisco is a different story!).

Good luck. Hope this helps.
 
Darkala said:
Alright what I need is a 100% no bullshit assessment of this situation.

Ok I have had a passion for computers since I was 7 and I am now 21. I did not however go to college when I graduated as the funds werent available. I now work 11pm to 7 am doing CNC machining work on airplane parts. Its time for a carreer change because top pay in my trade is about 42,000 which im close to now.

So I heard this ad on the radio about computertraining.com and their MCSE course, and i checked it out and it takes 6 months, 2 days a week. This sounds good to me. The cost is about 24,500 which I honestly wouldn't mind paying if the following occurs

I start out in a job making about 45,000 a year
The MCSE is even worth getting, as a start into the industry

so thats what i want, am i on the right track guys?

I am not a noob to server systems although I will admit ive only messed around in windows 2003 as I prefer OpenBSD. The training place said they help place you in a job and all that bullshit...what im looking for are people with MCSE to respond and tell me if it is worth getting, and if having just a MCSE is going to get me the type of job im looking for, which starting out would hopefully be a network admin assistant or something similar, as opposed to help desk level 1.

thanks guys, ill check on this soon
Click to expand...

Sad truth to all of this is. You arent going to start out at 45k a year no matter what cert you get here.
What you need to do is take a pay cut. Find a job on a helpdesk or other for a few years and while you are working, study and take your MCSE and other certifications. No employer these days will hire an MCSE without any experience. These self learning programs are a joke at best. You are better off spending 100 bucks to get access to the braindump sites for these certs and memorizing the answers. you will learn just as much(which is nothing).

I am not trying to say Certs dont help, they most certainly do. But, with no experience they are just about worthless. Their value increases as your experience does.
 
I tried to go the same route as you, I concurrently took my GE for my associates as well as CCNA training. Took me 4 years, and while it paid off in the short run, I'm running into the glass ceiling with a quickness. I'm working for one of the big 4 accounting firms now, and they don't even look at you unless you have a bachelors. I got lucky because I had a ton of experience and a friend in the company, and was able to get in, but I have basically been ordered to get my BS ASAP.

In my experience, (companies in socal area), for the field you are looking at, the first thing they look at is schooling. they want to see a bachelors because it means you can commit to something you probably don't want to do. this will qualify you for the position, then they look at experience, then certs.

regarding pay.. this company pays helpdesk people with a BS a hair over 40k/year; AS, a hair under. you may not want to do helpdesk stuff, but it is a decent jumping off point so you can get some experience under your belt.

spend that money on a real education, and find a company that will let you intern for a while. that will qualify you for FARRRRR more jobs in the future than a cert will in the short run.
 
Kaos said:
getting that job with 0 work experience in the IT field is going to be a challenge I assure you.

Its a rough time in the industry right now, people with BS degrees are doing help desk work.
Click to expand...


I couldn't agree more - having a MCSE isn't going to guarantee you anything anymore. I'd suggest doing what others have already stated. Work towards that MCSE and try to find a help desk job because once you get the experience that you can put down on a resume you'll be looking much better.


-Michael
 
I beleive a full fledged bachelors degree from an in-state university will cost you less than that MCSE class (assuming 2000/semester * 8 semesters)...

If i'm not mistaken, the MCSE is one of those easy to get with enough crash-coursing, such that its nice to have, but doesn't necessarily mean you're anything special. A 4 year degree will show you are capable of making a large investment of time and money in yourself to obtain a broad based education relevant to what you really want to do.

BuudWeizErr said:
I'm working for one of the big 4 accounting firms now, and they don't even look at you unless you have a bachelors.
Click to expand...

This is true. I'm at a big 4 accounting firm as well. I did a double major (CIS+Accounting), and I'm well over $50k after being here a year and a quarter.
 
i'm gonna back the guys who recommend college.

listen, having cert will only get you so far. since many IT jobs are being outsourced and unemployment is high, the employees who have high degrees will get an in.

it used to be that you can get by life with a hs degree. that is no longer true. if you want to live comfortably&don't wanna try to make ends meet all the time, you *must* have a college degree no matter where you live/situated in the world. a college degree is the "new high school".

here in New England, it's even worse. Masters degree is the new "college". many of the high paying jobs are requiring masters degree!
 
i really appreciate this advice, it helps out a lot. please keep it coming!!
 
JediFonger said:
i'm gonna back the guys who recommend college.

listen, having cert will only get you so far. since many IT jobs are being outsourced and unemployment is high, the employees who have high degrees will get an in.

it used to be that you can get by life with a hs degree. that is no longer true. if you want to live comfortably&don't wanna try to make ends meet all the time, you *must* have a college degree no matter where you live/situated in the world. a college degree is the "new high school".

here in New England, it's even worse. Masters degree is the new "college". many of the high paying jobs are requiring masters degree!
Click to expand...


I think this is a misconception. College while great, isnt always going to get your foot in the door. I had 3 years of college and dropped before any degree was earned. I started my way at a top 3 Bookseller Retail corporation from the helpdesk to one of the 6 Network Admins who handles the whole store chain and corporations networks/infrastructure etc. There are 2 other guys here as well who never had a degree.

I dont want to say not having a degree isnt important, it is. But it is by no means the end all of your career advancement in the IT industry. Experience usually conquers all. Get a job in a helpdesk, get experience, get certs on the side. If you can work a degree into that, great! If you cant, someone will still be looking for someone like you.
 
JediFonger said:
listen, having cert will only get you so far. since many IT jobs are being outsourced and unemployment is high, the employees who have high degrees will get an in.
Click to expand...

There are more IT related jobs in the marketplace right now than there were in the dot.com era. Most companies I visit are doing very well in IT and are hiring people, few with layoffs (those tend to be the companies that just got bought out and the new owners are trimming the fat). As president of the CIS Alumni club at my university, I speak with business leaders across the Atlanta area - they are hungry for new talent for their organization in a way that they have not been in 5-6 years. Programming for the most part may be overseas for as long as we know it, but IT people who understand the business are in huge demand right now.

I know for a fact, if I quit my job today, I could have a new job at my choice of companies within the week and be pulling down a much higher salary.
 
I am twenty-three years old and, like you, I started with computers at a very young age. I was programming in my TI-99/4a's native basic around six or seven. From there I went through a progression of systems starting with an 8088 my uncle and I pieced together from two army surplus machines. Through the years I became more and more swept up in technology; building machines for myself and others and doing jobs for small businesses here and there.

At age nineteen I decided to pursue a job in IT as writing articles for websites and doing a review here or there while working a dead end job was just not cutting it. I signed up for the four core MCSE courses at my local community college and, with books, paid about three and a half thousand dollars. It was there that I met several of the people I have now been working with for nearly four years.

I ended up helping a lot of the people in the class as about half were there simply looking for something else to do. A group of us would always stay late and talk about technology in general and the labs we had just completed. In the third class I was asked for my resume and before the end of the last class I was offered a second level helpdesk position in the forties pay grade.

In the years following I moved away from the helpdesk and into enterprise administration; I am now working as a direct part of the team that those whom I met in class worked for, at the mid fifties pay grade.

I graduated High School with a GPA of 3.75 and have yet to pursue any additional education aside from the four core MCSE courses. I have had my MCSA for a while now and am two tests away from my MCSE.

Be aware though that because of places like ComputerTraining.com, a lot of employers are starting to move away from MCSE in favor of Security+, CISSP and others. An MCSA or MCSE will still get you a good starting point and shows that you possess a certain level of baseline knowledge and dedication, but it is not what it used to be. A lot of places will prefer that you supplement an advanced certification with something else, such as Security+ or, at the minimum, A+ or Linux+.

Getting a job in the *nux world without experience is also going to be a little 'easier' IF you can demonstrate the skills. Not only is that market somewhat starved of honest talent, it also tends to be a bit more reality oriented from what I have seen. Most of the Linux/UNIX technicians I have worked with are more than willing to look past the lack of corporate experience if you can demonstrate some skill.

You can succeed without a college degree but understand this; eventually you /will/ hit the ceiling. Having a college degree will benefit you in more ways than can be counted so go for it if you can!

Do not sign up for a certification mill... they guarantee you will become certified but they'll cost you an insane amount of money and most offer little more than a piece of paper at the end. Look into your local community college and see if they offering the MCSA/E track if you are interested in going that route.

Also keep in mind that certifications are not just generic things to be had... each is supposed to demonstrate knowledge in one area or another. Having too many certifications can also be a bad thing as no one will want to pay for that many pieces of paper. I once worked with a man who now has over twenty certifications and a hard time finding a job above temp/contract work - unfortunately most HR people will look at that and go, "Oh My GOD! We can't afford that... next."

Go after the certifications in the field you'd like to work in, don't simply follow the path suggested by a radio commercial. :)

If you want to get into helpdesk work to start, most employers are looking for at least an A+ and/or an MCP.

If you want to get into networking, look into Network+ for a foundation and CCNA.

If you want to get into security, learn BSD or Linux at a minimum and go for your Security+ or CISSP certification.

It wouldn't hurt to know BSD when going into the networking field either, as Cisco is very similar to it and most everything else is very similar to Cisco. :)

Anyhow, that's insanely long-winded but I hope it helps you somewhat, I tried to offer some advice from my own experience that's perhaps a bit different from the standard response.

The somewhat good news for those of us who depend on the IT market is that most people from certification mills like ComputerTraining.com only last an average of five years in our field before moving on to something entirely different. Hence the rapid influx that nearly ruined us is starting to wane.

Remember it only takes one Microsoft test to become an MCP and along with an A+ that would make a good foundation for a Helpdesk position.
 
Become a Microsoft Small Business Specialist, some reading, prep, exams,

For years...this market has been EXPLOADING! The demand is HUGE, for as long as I've been in it...always have more people looking for help than I can fill.

Drive around town...all those offices you see, businesses of every type...they all need computer/network support. It's a wide open market ripe for the taking. Danged good money too!

And you're always doing something different...not the cookie cutter boring routine line many IT jobs where you're stuck doing the saaaaaaame old thing day in and day out stuck behind a cubicle 9-5.

Tons of consulting groups out there looking for consultants.
 
Thank you all for these responses, as they have helped a lot.

Heres what im looking at now:

ill start with CCNA, A+, Security+ and MCSE from computertraining.com (maybe)

and then ill see if I can get a job, and get them to pay for more education. Im not too awfully unhappy where I am working, so I am not rushing to get out, but I dont want to be there forever. Based on some review of the concepts, I dont think I am going to have problems self studying for those certifications. I'll stick with this idea unless i find out it sucks :D

Thanks again guys!
 
a big thing you are gonna need in IT is experience...I suggest volunteering to do small IT jobs (maybe at small local schools, for a local charity or for a church).
 
I just graduate ITT in a class of about 15 other networking students, ive talked to alot of them and the thing that is getting me call backs is my experience...I must stress the experience, the problem youll have is that to get that experience you might notice a small decrease in your pay scale.
 
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