My Initial Vista Impressions - LONG

jldavid

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Feb 16, 2007
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Background

Let me start off by saying I've been using home computers since 1980 and have never been fond of Microsoft. I had Apple hardware until 1986, ran DR-DOS instead of MS-DOS for several years and installed and used OS/2 on my machines through most of the 1990s. It wasn't until Windows 2000 Professional that I started using MS operating systems full time - mostly because OS/2 would not run my 32 bit Windows apps.

I also have been using and programming on UNIX for 25 years so I have an appreciation for what a real OS looks like even if I don't understand all the gritty details of the kernel.

What I am about to comment on is Windows Vista Home Premium which came with my new VM machine. What you are going to see is an honest assessment based on my early experience, not MS bashing.

Interface

Let me start with the eye candy. I really like the new interface. I know, I can hear some groans out there already, but this is an intelligent, well thought out, user-friendly interface. For example, in XP I never found "Show common tasks in folders" particularly useful. The items on the left side were too high level to save me any effort. I like to organize my desktop into "Essential Things I Access Often" like (My) Documents, (My) Computer, Network, Recycle Bin and Downloads, and "Application Folders" where I put shortcuts to all my applications grouped in the following categories: Internet, Financial Applications, Games, Applications, Utilities and Programming. In XP I would open all my application folders upon startup and minimize them to the taskbar so that I had ready access if the desktop was covered (which it is if I'm using it). :) This was more efficient for me than using the start menu. With Vista I only need to open one of these and all of them are listed on the left side under the Desktop.

I like the new explorer and how all the windows have the same look and feel regardless if you are opening folders or "Computer" or Explore. In XP there were subtle differences. In Vista, the only differences are on the menu bar and only change if it makes sense. I like that you can toggle the views by simply clicking on the "Views" menu on the menu bar. I like being able to navigate to a higher directory by simply clicking on it in the address bar. I like the "Switch Between Windows" 3D window chooser.

I also prefer the new start menu with the integrated search. I know MS has been roasted for getting rid of the "Run" command on the start menu, but it really isn't needed. Want to run "regedit" or "msconfig" or "cmd"? Just type it into the search bar and hit the "Enter" key. That's one less mouse click than before. Frankly, the more I use the Interface, the more I like it. I even like the new sounds better.

This is all little stuff that indivdually means practically nothing but when taken together is a big step forward for Microsoft. I care not whether MS copied from Apple or whoever, I'm just glad these GUI improvements are there. Whining Mac users can go straight to /dev/null. (How many of you kiddies understand that one?) :D

Included Applications

Microsoft has done its best to include just about everything a Home or SOHO user might need (except for "office-type" applications). I don't have a use for everything they've included, but the machine is set up to perform most basic things an average home user wants to do: browse the internet, email, IM, watch a movie, listen to music, manage and view photographs, burn a DVD, keep a calendar, keep a journal, play games and a few others I've certainly missed. The new Chess Titans and Mahjong Titans are visually pleasing and a fun diversion. I don't know how skilled the chess game is at higher levels (there are 10), but at level 2 it blows. :) One thing I hate are the new card decks. I find them difficult on the eyes - all of them.

In the past I've been critical of MS bundling applications with their OS, but I've mellowed over time. Joe Average User (JAU) who has just spent (for him/her) a lot of money on a machine and just wants to do basic stuff wants these kind of applications bundled. I may not, the average enthusiast here might not, but JAU most emphatically does want this stuff. So I'm OK with MS trying to make it easy on JAU. If I don't want to use their stuff, I'll just let it rot.

What I will be critical of is the sidebar and the gadgets. I know many people will like this implementation, but I don't. I think this idea was better implemented by Stardock on OS/2 10 years ago. Frankly, why do I need a clock gadget that takes up a lot of screen real estate when I already have a nice small one on the taskbar? Yes, I know I can disable the taskbar clock, but why? The standard gadgets are underpowered in my opinion. For example, all the "Notes" gadget allows you to do is to write short notes. You can't resize them, minimize them, set alarms, etc. The weather gadget only gives you the current conditions in a picture (I can look out the window for that) and the temperature. Having the forecast high and low and precipitation probability would not be that difficult to do and would make it, um, useful? The "CPU Meter" provided is useless on a dual core machine. I found a more useful one on the internet. The "Contacts" gadget is pretty worthless. There is no way to add or edit contacts directly from the gadget. At least give a right-click menu option to open your Windows > Contacts folder. There are so many better implementations of this concept.

I know everyone criticizes MS for creating bloatware, but you have to have minimal features to make these things useful. Perhaps the stuff that's included is simply a proof of concept. I'm sure we'll see a flood of these things by non-Microsoft vendors over the next year and I'm sure most will by a lot better than what MS provided. The one positive thing I will say about this implementation is that you can change the opacity for each gadget.

Under the Hood

In my opinion this is where Vista has made giant leaps forward. I think it is obvious that they have finally decided to learn from UNIX. There have been significant improvements to the kernel, security and, yes, performance. This has been posted before, but you can view some of the gory details for yourself in the following articles:

http://www.microsoft.com/technet/technetmag/issues/2007/02/VistaKernel/default.aspx
http://www.microsoft.com/technet/technetmag/issues/2007/03/VistaKernel/default.aspx
http://www.microsoft.com/technet/technetmag/issues/2007/04/VistaKernel/default.aspx

My two favorite features here are ReadyBoost and SuperFetch. Combined, these two improve task switching by leaps and bounds. For many people this will be a big yawn, but for me these are a godsend.

There are new command line features in Vista as well. Here I can really see the UNIX influence. How about TASKLIST (ps on UNIX) or TASKKILL (kill) or SCHTASKS (cron)? MKLINK allows the creation of symbolic links which have existed on UNIX since just about Day 1. (If you have ever programmed on UNIX you know how useful this is). Granted, most of the new stuff here is also accessible via the GUI and of no interest at all to Joe Average User, but administrators and developers will definitely find some of this stuff useful.

What would really be useful here would be to have the ability to log into another machine with admin priviledges with a "console" screen to be able to TASKKILL a program that has locked the GUI (for example). That may be possible, but I have yet to figure out how to do it. (Remember, I'm running Home Premium).

People who criticize Vista as nothing more than XP with a bloated GUI don't have a clue as to what they are talking about. From what I can tell so far, this is a whole new (and much better) OS under the hood.

Drivers

This is a touchy issue with a lot of people. Who's responsible? Microsoft or the Vendor? In the case of peripherals and high-and audio and video, I'd say it's the vendor's responsibility. For everyday standard stuff (like hard drives, optical drives, generic sound and video) I'd say it's Microsoft's responsibility. When I bought my new system I had to buy a new printer because my trusty Lexmark X75 all-in-one had no Vista drivers. I blame Lexmark for that. I had an incident with my machine yesterday where I suddenly could not read CD-ROMs. Driver issue? Something else? I don't know but rebooting fixed it. If it is a driver issue, it's up to Microsoft to fix it since cdrom.sys is their baby.

I would never install Vista on my 4 year old HP machine because I'm too afraid that there won't be working drivers for my old components. Maybe it would work, maybe not but I'm not taking that chance. Should Microsoft develop for 4-year old hardware? That's a business decision and if I was a MS shareholder (I'm not) I'd only want them to do that if they could generate enough upgrade sales to justify the cost.

I think the driver situation is adequate at the moment. I also think it will get better as the year progresses. In my opinion, 99% of the people who have had "stability" issues with Vista have actually had driver issues. The best solution to this problem in the short run if you are building or buying a machine is to make sure you are getting parts that are on the Vista hardware compatibility list.

Applications

We have all heard application horror stories. However, I firmly believe the problems are due to people not understanding the new security paradigm. I searched the internet for tips and suggestions for 2 weeks before I got my machine and the best damn advice I saw came from bbz_Ghost right on this forum. I want to publicly thank bbz_Ghost for his informative and enlightening posts. He actually knows what the hell he is talking about which is rare in cyberspace. (In fact, I took his process as I used it for Quicken 2005 and posted my version of it on the Quicken forum. It has been the most viewed post there in the last 24 hours, LOL. Even the Quicken tech support people don't understand this process as far as I can tell).

Let me start by agreeing with bbz_Ghost that turning off User Access Controls is NOT the answer. I've had to do that only once when I screwed up an install. The uninstall failed to clean up correctly and locked up a couple of files that Vista would not let me delete with UAC on no matter what I tried. (Even command line tricks didn't work). That was an exception. For those of you that have not seen the basic process, you can find everything you need on this thread. Read that and the companion thread and you will be enlightened. ;)

By following his advice I successfully installed over 20 applications in the first 24 hours I had the machine. This included an old 1993, 16-bit version of Quattro Pro 5.0 (still one of the best damn spreadsheet applications ever written), legacy 32 bit software from the late 1990s that I still use and more recent stuff including applications that said they specifically ran under Vista. Everything runs great although I'm getting used to the new font rendering in Vista. Firefox, Thunderbird and OpenOffice all run beautifully. I've heard that some people have had trouble making Firefox the default browser, but I was able make it stick without a problem.

I had only 2 install issues that were not the result of my own idiocy. :rolleyes: The first was with an old freeware Post-It note program from 3M called PSNlite. The installer choked with a message about me having the wrong OS. A simple right-click to change it to run in XP compatibility mode fixed that problem. The other was with a financial program that has a USB security key. The install went OK, but when I plug in the security key, Vista wants to install a device driver that does not exist. XP was smart enough to realize that the key didn't need one. Because of this, the application can't sense the security key is plugged in and will not start. I'm working with the vendor on this one. I may also contact Microsoft.

So far I think Vista is and excellent application platform (and better than XP). For people that actually use their computers, being a great application platform is the only reason to care about the operating system at all.

Conclusion

Is this the best damn OS ever written? Probably not, but it has the potential to be. I've been critical of Microsoft in the past, but I have to give them props on this one. For an OS that has been out less than two months it is amazingly stable and, in my opinion, the best application platform they've ever put out. We'll see if I feel this way two months from now. :)
 
I can see why some wouldn't care for the sidebar and gadgets. Personally, I like them including the clock. I prefer it over the taskbar clock since I can see it from accross my office. I'm running a widescreen monitor and laptop, so the gadgets fit in well since I have the extra space. This was what it was really designed for. I have it enabled on both my laptop and gaming rig. The Kitchen PC and my Dad's PC use standard monitors. Sidebar is just too much clutter on those systems so it is disabled on them.
 
I can't figure out how to even enable the darn Sidebar :)

The biggest gripe I have (so far after 1 hour of using it) is Dell has still not written any compatible drivers for it yet. How long has Vista been out- for them to write the drivers? Isn't that the purpose of RTM? I hate Dell.
So the drivers won't be out til April (The way Dell is, I bet its going to be the last day in April, too). That means I have to keep the notebook on XP for now, just for the sole purpose of printing. I hate Dell.
 
Start - type sidebar, press Enter. Simple. :)

Who needs mouseclicks, or a Start Button, or a Search bar to run command line stuff? Windows+R ftw! :) The Windows key is your friend, really.

Dell isn't a hardware manufacturer, per se, they're a mega-system builder basically, so they only get drivers from the actual hardware makers sooo... you already know all this shit so I'll shut up now.

Thanks for the nod, and congrats on taking the plunge into Vista. Got linkage to that Quicken forum so I can take a peek?

And nice posting, but long? Pishaw... double it and we'll talk about you getting into the mega-post range. hehehe

Have fun, always...
 
Nice review and very fair from a UNIX guy.

The gadgets are OK but nothing special at this point in time. I did download a few that expaned quite a bit more then the stock ones. For instance, I found a better weather one that allows a small icon driven local forecast just below the temp. My main gripe is that there should be a central one stop place in the gadget windows to set options globally, like opacity for instance.

As a windows programmer myself, gadgets could be interesting to me for some simple
but practical business applications that I could dream up. I see potential there.

BTW there is a small button next to start button that toggles the gadgets
on and off the desktop. If not type sidebar in search.
 
bbz_Ghost opined...
Thanks for the nod, and congrats on taking the plunge into Vista. Got linkage to that Quicken forum so I can take a peek?
Sure, go to http://www.quickenforums.com/forum.jspa?forumID=1003 and look for the thread "Installing on Vista? - READ THIS". What is interesting is that it looks like my original post was deleted but a response containing the whole thing is still there. Weird. Feel free to send me a critique.

And nice posting, but long? Pishaw... double it and we'll talk about you getting into the mega-post range. hehehe
Yeah, I've seen your posts... :D
 
I can see why some wouldn't care for the sidebar and gadgets. Personally, I like them including the clock. I prefer it over the taskbar clock since I can see it from accross my office. I'm running a widescreen monitor and laptop, so the gadgets fit in well since I have the extra space. This was what it was really designed for. I have it enabled on both my laptop and gaming rig. The Kitchen PC and my Dad's PC use standard monitors. Sidebar is just too much clutter on those systems so it is disabled on them.

Just to clarify: It isn't the concept of the sidebar and gadgets that I'm criticizing, it's the implementation. On second thought, it's the gadgets themselves provided by MS that are the biggest issue for me. I am running a 22" wide screen monitor so screen real estate isn't an issue. I'm running the provided calendar and a Multi Core gadget I downloaded. It would just be nice if the calender gadget had hooks into the Windows Calendar application.
 
I can't figure out how to even enable the darn Sidebar :)

The biggest gripe I have (so far after 1 hour of using it) is Dell has still not written any compatible drivers for it yet. How long has Vista been out- for them to write the drivers? Isn't that the purpose of RTM? I hate Dell.
So the drivers won't be out til April (The way Dell is, I bet its going to be the last day in April, too). That means I have to keep the notebook on XP for now, just for the sole purpose of printing. I hate Dell.

I put vista on my friends dell 1405. Everything just worked, I didn't install any drivers manually. I think windows update found drivers for the card reader....

Yes, it was a full reformat + reinstall.
 
does no one know the [winbutton]+[R] for run commands? I used that plus dumping all my shortcuts in my "c:\documents and settings\user" and removing them from the desktop to use run commands to launch all my programs (so much faster then clicking btw imo). What I presonally hate about vista is the fact that everything that was so easy to find before is hidden behind all these menus. "Why do I have to use the search function to find where to toggle aero and folder options?". Other then that I love using vista on my laptop out and about but xp is still the better os for gaming and xgl [in kunbuntu edgy 6.10 btw] has got the 3d desktop thing down; I love xgl, but nix is annoying for productivity stuff imo.
 
Just to clarify: It isn't the concept of the sidebar and gadgets that I'm criticizing, it's the implementation. On second thought, it's the gadgets themselves provided by MS that are the biggest issue for me. I am running a 22" wide screen monitor so screen real estate isn't an issue. I'm running the provided calendar and a Multi Core gadget I downloaded. It would just be nice if the calender gadget had hooks into the Windows Calendar application.

Better gadgets will come in time I'm sure. There are a lot of gadgets that weren't around just a few months ago. Unfortunately there are a lot of crap gadgets out there too and I do agree that a lot of the included gadgets are very basic.

Given that some gadgets have hooks into apps like outlook, I can't see why someone wouldn't be able to write one that hooks into calendar. Hopefully one will show up before too long.

Personally, the gadgets I use are the accuweather bug (because it also shows weather alerts, radar, forcasts and even a local weather cam), Battery meter, Wifi gadget, drive space, wikipedia search and the included calendar. I find the battery and wikipedia gadgets to be the most useful.

I'm glad you're having a mostly good experience with Vista though. I've been running it as my OS since the retail release. It's not been without a few hiccups here and there but I have no desire to revert back to XP. Most of my issues have been dealing with beta software or drivers. Mostly sound drivers from creative. Nothing show stopping though.

I'm finding the new search to be very useful and previous versions (I have ultimate) has saved me on a couple of occasions.

I replaced MCE2005 with Vista64 Ultimate as well. Home premium doesn't allow remote desktop connection which I use on this machine daily. I ran MCE for 2 years and it was pretty damn reliable. So far Vista has proven to be every bit as reliable if not more.

Perhaps the biggest test of Vista has been on my Dad's PC. I have home premium on his box. He's barely computer literate and he's been using Vista with no transition problems.

I just want to add a comment about the run command as well. As pointed out you can use the search to accomplish the same thing, Win+R but you can also customize the start button (just like in XP) to include the Run option. It's just not shown by default.

My biggest gripe with Vista is with what features are offered with each edition. IMHO, Shadow Copy/Previous versions are features that ever copy of Vista should come with. They only come on Ultimate and Business editions. The ability to revert to a previous copy of a doc, photo, whatever after you accidently hit save instead of save-as is just something too useful to limit who gets it.
 
Just to clarify this a bit.

The old XP "run" command box is now the
"search" box in Vista.

I can see why the label might be confusing.

I'm can be slow learner myself at times :p but I am "learnable"
 
Man, I tell you what...

For IT folks like a good number seem to be here, switching to Vista is a challenge...

I, for one, have no clue where anything else is at. Not sure if I like the way it is setup yet. Yet for some reason every XP machine I am using I wish would be Vista... wonder why?

For new users, Vista is awesome. For the whole population- Vista is great. Much simpler to get users to figure stuff out on their own, and much harder to screw the system over.
 
Overall, I can agree with jldavids sentiments.

Yet, in switching from ME to XP (I think I was one of the few who didn't mind ME in the first place) I didn't notice any major driver incompatibilities, in major product lines. But in Vista this seems to be a sticky situation for a lot more people than before – especially outside of printers and scanners. Then again, at the time XP debuted I was about 13:rolleyes: . And the situation is getting better.

The one major thing I have to agree with is general stability, it just runs smoother. I stitched together a timeline from my reliability and performance monitor. Now, provided I try not to run a program that Vista doen't like i.e., a program not built for Vista, and excluding the quirky errors, you'll notice the OS has only failed on me twice. One of the times I know it was related the "beta" nature of nvidia's drivers (coming out of hibernate to screen scramble...), the other I can't remember. So I can definitely agree that the majority of my "glitches" (funky sound problems + learning to disable monitor sleep mode) are the result of immature drivers. I have to say Creative’s February Xi-fi driver are smoother than the December ones – no noticeable CPU usage when playing music now. And although MediaCenter does not like to display certain DivX files, I’m hoping that’ll be take care of in an update. As a side note: that is the one predictable crash I can cause. I still can’t play copyrighted DVDs but I’m thinking it’s because I flashed my DVD drive to be region-free (It’ll still play my non-copyrighted DVDs though – counterintuitive no?).

Also, note below that the first two months or so I was simply playing around with Vista. I'm sure we all were – and still are. Like zacdl said and griffinhart lamented about, things are in different places. Some are buried (enabling ClearType) and some are closer to the surface (msconfig) and some never changed at all (installing a new font). The way I can describe it best is the way the engineers described the signage and traffic pattern changes when new portions of I-93, of Boston’s BigDig were completed. They said: "It will be harder for those used to the old configuration, to transition to the new traffic patterns than it will be for visitors who come to the city, because the visitors will usually read the signs more so than the Bostonians.” For me at least, that has been the case, it has taken me some time to get used to the feel of “everything-vista” simply because I was so attached to my XP ways (not much has changed though). Remembering to use the sidebar to launch my common apps and speaker-configuration control panel is a lot easier than using the start menu or going into the control panel (thanks “AppLauncher” gadget.” Simply put, it is a new set of norms.


Reliability.jpg



As for recommending it to my friends (JAU) I’d still tell them to wait, because most of them don’t even know what a driver is, much less what it does. Nor would they really care about the SuperFetch (which is pretty cool) and ReadyBoost options or the fact that your applications can have different volume levels. My JAU friends just want the machine to work, no question asked. Those savvy enough around an OS have certainly adopted because they’re willing to trouble shoot and explore. But my JAU friends don’t trouble shoot - I trouble shoot for them. When they ask me the difference, to the average person, aside from the glass and “slightly” different UI, I tell them not much has changed, but they do like the fact that I can watch tv on my computer. TBH I don’t know how many people will use media center to its fullest extent, in the laptop and desktop setting (knowingly excluding the HTPC crowd – it’s the front end in that case) unless they’re shown its potential.
 
All I care about is that it is lightening fast on the desktop, and I'm running a full bar of gadgets (cpu monitor, ram monitor, hdd monitor, wlan monitor, bandwidth monitor, 2 CS:S server monitors, gmail monitor, ebay monitor) along with uTorrent on DHT at all times, GAIM, AVG Internet Suite, AVG AS, and steam monitor in tray.

Also with WHQL X-Fi drivers I'm sitting pretty in games, getting 60-90fps in CS:S at 1280x1024 low settings, as I did in XP, CnC3 plays at full settings around 30fps, fine enough for an RTS on my now 2 generations old GPU.

Downloading is lightening fast, I've seen 1.8mb/sec on my torrents (when running mutliple torrents) and 1.2mb/sec on IE7 downloads. Mind you I'm running a Dlink 108G card on a Dlink gamerslounge with gamefuel enabled for CS:S and torrents.

My system is nice but by no means beefy, actually its pretty much last years $500 upgrade guide:
6600GT 128mb PCI-E, NF4 Ultra, AMD64 3000+ (currently stock, tho it'll hit 2.7), 3gb PC3200 cl3, 320GB 7200.10 16mb (perpindicular ftw), benq 16xDVDRW, benq52xCDRW, Dell 1907FP, G5, Logitech Elite KB.

My only drag keeping me below 5.0 right now is the CPU and my games rating on GPU. if I spent $400 on an 8800 320mb and a 3800 AMD64x2 I could be over 5.0 with no problem.

Running Vista Ultimate 32bit for the record.

I am now using vista for all my everyday needs, the only thing I hafta boot my XP partition for these days is hacking my cell phones... (C'mon IO Gear vista drivers...)
 
A while back I wrote:

I had only 2 install issues that were not the result of my own idiocy. ... The other was with a financial program that has a USB security key. The install went OK, but when I plug in the security key, Vista wants to install a device driver that does not exist. XP was smart enough to realize that the key didn't need one. Because of this, the application can't sense the security key is plugged in and will not start. I'm working with the vendor on this one.

I have now gotten every application I've tried to install to run successfully in Vista. The app above DID need a driver for the security key and I was able to download and install it. The app would then crash on start. It ends up that it wasn't a Vista problem, but a bug in the hyperthreading code of the app that caused the problem on machines with multi-core processors. I just got a patch from the vendor and it's running like a champ.

The only application I'm even having a minor issue with is Quicken 2005. On occasion it crashes when switching accounts or on exit. I've sent a bug report to Quicken. We'll see if they decide to try and fix it.
 
I'm assuming he is talking about the Hyperthreading of some P4s...
I wasn't aware they even made programs written for that... it shouldn't matter.
 
Just to clarify: It isn't the concept of the sidebar and gadgets that I'm criticizing, it's the implementation. On second thought, it's the gadgets themselves provided by MS that are the biggest issue for me.


How is it an issue if it is completely customizable? No one is forcing you to use the gadgets Microsoft has provided so don't know why you even bothered to review them. You can get another weather gadget that has what you want, remove the clock if you don't like it.
 
That's my point: they don't. A thread's a thread, as far as the application is concerned.
 
I want to publicly thank bbz_Ghost for his informative and enlightening posts. He actually knows what the hell he is talking about which is rare in cyberspace.

I'm surprised that came as a surprise to you considering you are a programmer. You sometimes have to do the same thing in XP when running under a limited user account.
 
Thanks for the post. I've been debating on upgrading my laptop. The only thing I can't find much information on is hybrid hard drives running vista. As far as I can tell you can buy the drives now but still no reviews.

Looks like I'll be getting a new 7200rpm drive for my laptop and ghosting/upgrading to vista (just in case).
 
There are no hybrid drives presently for sale that I've been able to locate, meaning drives that merge present day mechanical operation with a large Flash-RAM based buffer/cache on the drive for faster random operations.

The drive technology is still in a testing phase and the earliest date(s) I've ever seen mentioned are "before the end of 2007" so we've still got a ways to go. Patience, man, they'll get here someday. :)
 
There are no hybrid drives presently for sale that I've been able to locate, meaning drives that merge present day mechanical operation with a large Flash-RAM based buffer/cache on the drive for faster random operations.

The drive technology is still in a testing phase and the earliest date(s) I've ever seen mentioned are "before the end of 2007" so we've still got a ways to go. Patience, man, they'll get here someday. :)

Didn't Samsung or Seagate come out with a partial hybrid?
I know SOMEBODY did. It wasn't a true hybrid, but it wasn't a classic drive, either.

And unless it changed, Vista was supposed to support the whole hybrid thing- and be really fast to boot.
 
Didn't Samsung or Seagate come out with a partial hybrid?
I know SOMEBODY did. It wasn't a true hybrid, but it wasn't a classic drive, either.

And unless it changed, Vista was supposed to support the whole hybrid thing- and be really fast to boot.

Seagate lists the Momentus 5400 PSD Laptop Hybrid Drive on their website and I thought I remembered hearing a few news clips about it. That is why I thought they were on the market but I can't find them for sale on pricewatch.
 
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