Motofail: ICS updates practically cancelled?

R

/rant/

Limp Gawd
Joined
Oct 18, 2008
Messages
384
This isn't as much as a question, it is rather just some disturbing news...

From the Inquirer:
While the Razr, WiFi only Xoom and Xoom 2 are already earmarked for upgrades this Summer and beyond, the Atrix MB860 and MB861 are still being evaluated for suitability along with the Xoom with WiFi and 3G. There are 15 devices in the No Upgrade column in the Europe, Middle East and Africa region.

Set to linger on Android 2.3 Gingerbread are the Defy Mini, Defy+ MB526, Fire, Fire XT XT531/XT532, Milestone 2 A953, Motoluxe, and Motorola Pro+. Running behind them, limping away on Android 2.2 Froyo are the Defy MB525, Milestone A853, Pro XT610, Charm MB502, Flipout MB511, and Milestone XT720. Lagging even further behind are the Backflip MB300 and Debt MD200, both of which are stuck on Android 1.5.
Click to expand...

While I get that devices with low-end specs aren't on an official update path, doesn't it shock you that the original Xoom is very unlikely to get the update? My TF101 got ICS a few weeks after it was released. If you ask me, Moto represents everything that is wrong with Android. What the hell? :eek:
 
Original Xoom Wifi has had ICS for some time now. Must be some issue with the 3G chip that blocking the upgrade for the original Xoom 3G.
 
/rant/ said:
This isn't as much as a question, it is rather just some disturbing news...

From the Inquirer:

While I get that devices with low-end specs aren't on an official update path, doesn't it shock you that the original Xoom is very unlikely to get the update? My TF101 got ICS a few weeks after it was released. If you ask me, Moto represents everything that is wrong with Android. What the hell? :eek:
Click to expand...

The article from the Inquirer makes zero sense about the Xoom. Xoom is already officially slotted to get the ICS upgrade and release information was just updated last week by Motorola.

https://forums.motorola.com/pages/00add97d6c

Some of Motorola's omissions like Droid 3 and Droid X2 do puzzle me though. Motorola's excuse is "if the device doesn't benefit from the ICS upgrade they won't do it." You're telling me the Droid 3 and Droid X2 wouldn't benefit from ICS? Please that's a load of a horseshit. Beta builds of ICS with full hardware acceleration even on the old Droid Incredible are worlds better then Android 2.3.x. Then again the OEM's are in this to make money and they just continue to fuck us all and not support their devices.

My Thunderbolt is a perfect example from HTC. It will never see ICS at this rate. The RIL has yet to be cracked by the devs and I get an upgrade in November. Honestly, I'm done with buying from OEM's. With Verizon fucking me on my unlimited data I've decided to leave them as soon as I can get out without an ETF. I'm only buying phones from Google now and I'm never signing another 2 year contract. I'll leave Verizon, buy a Galaxy Nexus, and use it on T-Mobile with a pre-paid plan. GSM GNex will get Jelly Bean so that'll keep me happy until Android 6.0. At that point I'll buy the Nexus device to debut with 6.0.
 
Typical. Manufacturers and carriers not upgrading to ICS is killing Android, IMO. You can't expect someone to wait almost 2 years to get the latest version of their OS.
 
epimetheus said:
Original Xoom Wifi has had ICS for some time now. Must be some issue with the 3G chip that blocking the upgrade for the original Xoom 3G.
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Partially wrong, the US wi fi version has it but aside from Canada last week the entire world is still waiting for ICS (myself included in the UK). Motorola are a disgrace to the Android world; they should spend less money on lawsuits and more on getting these updates out there!
 
As much as us enthusiasts harp on updates, normal people don't even realize that they are missing something. Ignorance is bliss, etc.
"Does the phone work? Yes? ok. I'm good."
 
I wouldn't mind being stuck on Honeycomb but there are some major issues like keyboard lag which is supposed to be addressed in ICS for the Xoom. So in this case, it is imperative that they release updates as it has a very real impact on the product.
 
There was an interesting comment on the article about this over at Droid-Life.com.

D3 and DX2 are both 3G phones. With Verizon's recent push to get people off 3G and onto 4G LTE it would make sense for them to not update those devices.
 
TheReproducer said:
I wouldn't mind being stuck on Honeycomb but there are some major issues like keyboard lag which is supposed to be addressed in ICS for the Xoom. So in this case, it is imperative that they release updates as it has a very real impact on the product.
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If it's anything like the TF101 the keyboard lag is still very prevalent in ICS.
 
Vermillion said:
There was an interesting comment on the article about this over at Droid-Life.com.

D3 and DX2 are both 3G phones. With Verizon's recent push to get people off 3G and onto 4G LTE it would make sense for them to not update those devices.
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Considering that in Europe, neither Verizon nor any other carriers with significant 4G service are present for normal consumers - and thinking that Europe is a big market for manufacturers - it seems more like a Motorola internal issue. They screwed up their software division, like big time. I never had a Motorola phone, but as an enthusiast Android user, software engineer and mobile developer in particular, this makes me sad :/
 
The whole cycle with repeat and get even more funny/ironic when Google releases JB this year while vast majority of Android phones are still 2 generations behind. You'll have the new Nexus with JB, other Nexus phones getting it in 1-2 months, and everyone else praying they get it sometime in 2013.

Google basically don't care if the phone you buy is ever updated. They don't consider it an Android problem.
 
MrCrispy said:
The whole cycle with repeat and get even more funny/ironic when Google releases JB this year while vast majority of Android phones are still 2 generations behind. You'll have the new Nexus with JB, other Nexus phones getting it in 1-2 months, and everyone else praying they get it sometime in 2013.

Google basically don't care if the phone you buy is ever updated. They don't consider it an Android problem.
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Google has nothing to do with it. It's the OEM's fucking everything up. OEM's that leave Android alone (ASUS for example) can roll out updates quickly. It's the shitty skins (Sense, Blur, TouchWiz) that cause all the grief because they're baked in. Google certainly cares. Google Android developers have actually commented publicly about how the carriers fuck it all up. Plus if the whole multiple Nexus devices rumor is true that shows that Google cares a great deal.
 
Vermillion said:
Google has nothing to do with it. It's the OEM's fucking everything up. OEM's that leave Android alone (ASUS for example) can roll out updates quickly. It's the shitty skins (Sense, Blur, TouchWiz) that cause all the grief because they're baked in. Google certainly cares. Google Android developers have actually commented publicly about how the carriers fuck it all up. Plus if the whole multiple Nexus devices rumor is true that shows that Google cares a great deal.
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Google has nothing to do with it? What about the fact that Google's aquisition of Motorola Mobility closes on Wednesday? Google is literally hours away from owning this entire Motorola situation, and those devices can't even get updates.
 
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There's a reason customer satisfaction is waning for Android phones and it's not merely because of the slow updates. It's largely because of the massive bloat from the manufacturers that makes using their phones buggy and slow. They don't have to be that way to differentiate their products from each other but the reality of the situation is that they are doing this. Sense 4 is the prime example for the moment and I bet that you'll see more UI customization that is FUBAR in the (near) future. There are a lot of great things about Android as a platform. It's highly customizable and has a lot of capability. But the manufacturers, and carriers through their 'ramming of the rear-doors', are ruining the experience. A customer shouldn't have to buy a Nexus device to be guaranteed a pleasant experience. If that's the case then why should people even bother with other phone models if they know that they're just going to be making lots of compromises on what is a very expensive and heavily used tool? It just says a lot when phones with 1GB of RAM are chugging on multitasking because of bloat. Whether it is fair or not in the end it is Google who is losing reputation for this mess. They're the biggest and most recognizeable name in Android and customers are going to associate them the most with this mess.

And if you don't believe me just look at how people treated the "Vista Ready" mess. They didn't blame the manufacturers for the problems of inadequate hardware or poorly coded drivers, they blamed Microsoft. And, like Google, it was partially their fault for certifying that hardware. I don't know where Android will be in a year. But, unless there are dramatic changes I can make what I feel is a pretty safe prediction. Enthusiasts are going to be crying about lack of updates and locked down phones and regular customers are going to be complaining about slow phones, poor battery life (partly due to all of the ads in the free apps they download), and quirky/odd/buggy behavior related to Sense/TouchWiz/etc..
 
its kind of sad that in the face of all the manufacturer "differentiation", having a stock android experience actually is/would be a differentiating feature :rolleyes:
 
Vermillion said:
Google has nothing to do with it. It's the OEM's fucking everything up. OEM's that leave Android alone (ASUS for example) can roll out updates quickly. It's the shitty skins (Sense, Blur, TouchWiz) that cause all the grief because they're baked in. Google certainly cares. Google Android developers have actually commented publicly about how the carriers fuck it all up. Plus if the whole multiple Nexus devices rumor is true that shows that Google cares a great deal.
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Google has an official hands off policy and they don't require Android licensees to offer any updates or follow any standards. Google couldn't care less what they do, as long as the phones run Google search/gmail etc which makes them ad revenue. They don't seem to care about reducing Android fragmentation, they've officially said they consider it an oem problem. If they think the carriers are at fault, then they can easily require carriers to offer updates, e.g. the way Microsoft does with WP7.

The only reason they even have a Nexus phone is its a way to test new Android versions and sdk on a production device. We'll see if the rumor is true, but there's no way they can release phones on CDMA networks and own the updates.
 
MrCrispy said:
Google has an official hands off policy and they don't require Android licensees to offer any updates or follow any standards. Google couldn't care less what they do, as long as the phones run Google search/gmail etc which makes them ad revenue. They don't seem to care about reducing Android fragmentation, they've officially said they consider it an oem problem. If they think the carriers are at fault, then they can easily require carriers to offer updates, e.g. the way Microsoft does with WP7.

The only reason they even have a Nexus phone is its a way to test new Android versions and sdk on a production device. We'll see if the rumor is true, but there's no way they can release phones on CDMA networks and own the updates.
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Being open source, there really isn't much google could do about it. Withholding their proprietary apps, maps and market and the like, would be counter-productive.
 
ocellaris said:
Google has nothing to do with it? What about the fact that Google's aquisition of Motorola Mobility closes on Wednesday? Google is literally hours away from owning this entire Motorola situation, and those devices can't even get updates.
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Google didn't buy Motorola in order to produce phones. They bought Motorola for the patents to protect Android.

Both Google and Motorola have stated that Android development and phone development will remain separate entities for the time being. Will that continue that way? Most likely not but for the short term it will. Even now with Google owning Motorola the next Nexus device is still rumored to be up for grabs with even LG getting into the mix. Not to mention the rumor about multiple Nexus devices from multiple vendors.

Plus how can Google get blamed for Motorola taking their sweet time updating devices (infected with Blur) that were developed before Google owned them? Going forward though one would hope Motorola does get in the habit of updating their devices in a more timely manner.

MrCrispy said:
Google has an official hands off policy and they don't require Android licensees to offer any updates or follow any standards. Google couldn't care less what they do, as long as the phones run Google search/gmail etc which makes them ad revenue. They don't seem to care about reducing Android fragmentation, they've officially said they consider it an oem problem. If they think the carriers are at fault, then they can easily require carriers to offer updates, e.g. the way Microsoft does with WP7.

The only reason they even have a Nexus phone is its a way to test new Android versions and sdk on a production device. We'll see if the rumor is true, but there's no way they can release phones on CDMA networks and own the updates.
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Show me how they don't care.

They knew users wanted Nexus on Verizon so they delivered. You're correct though about Google not being able to fully support it. That blame is on Verizon though for not wanting to work with Google more closely in my opinion. It's 100% Verizon's fault the Verizon Galaxy Nexus is still sitting on 4.0.2.

Google knew they had to move Android to a place where the apps could work in both a phone and tablet environment in order to limit future fragmentation. They did that too with ICS. Like GLSauron said Google can only do so much due to Android being open source.

Google tried to get the Android Alliance going. It of course failed, but again who's really to blame? Personally, I blame the carriers and the OEM's far more then Google. You really think the carriers and OEM's want to update our phones?

My Thunderbolt is just over a year old. ICS on it makes the phone seem like new. Some of the builds out there from TwistedUmbrella and Liquid are so smooth and responsive it puts current CM7 kangs and Sense ROM's to shame. I'm due for my upgrade in November. So I ask you again. Do you really think the Verizon and HTC want to update my Thunderbolt to ICS which would make me less inclined to upgrade or do they want me to buy a new phone in November? The answer is pretty damn obvious.
 
GLSauron said:
Stock UI is a UI, just like Sense or Touchwiz is.
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yes i'm fully aware of that, but the stock UI is baked in by google during the development stage.. only then do the manufacturers get it and have to test their own add-in features.
 
Vermillion said:
Google didn't buy Motorola in order to produce phones. They bought Motorola for the patents to protect Android.
Click to expand...

Regardless of the reason for the purchase, the company making the OS now outright owns the division making the phones. It is foolish to think Google could not have provided some gentle encouragement to get the ICS updates in better shape.

I still think this comes down to phones not getting updates so they can sell people new phones. Even in the global arena where carrier lockdown is not as much of a problem, phones are not getting ICS updates.
 
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Vermillion said:
Google has nothing to do with it. It's the OEM's fucking everything up. OEM's that leave Android alone (ASUS for example) can roll out updates quickly. It's the shitty skins (Sense, Blur, TouchWiz) that cause all the grief because they're baked in. Google certainly cares. Google Android developers have actually commented publicly about how the carriers fuck it all up. Plus if the whole multiple Nexus devices rumor is true that shows that Google cares a great deal.
Click to expand...

Even other UIs are typically ported quickly (The international GS2 got ICS before the Nexus S)... It's the US carriers that screw everything to hell.
 
ocellaris said:
Regardless of the reason for the purchase, the company making the OS now outright owns the division making the phones. It is foolish to think Google could not have provided some gentle encouragement to get the ICS updates in better shape.
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So Google should have had input on devices in the development chain long before Google officially owned Motorola? Wow, I'd love to have you as a CEO so I could get your company to do whatever I want even though I'm not your boss.

Zurginator said:
Even other UIs are typically ported quickly (The international GS2 got ICS before the Nexus S)... It's the US carriers that screw everything to hell.
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Agreed. The carriers are a huge problem but the stupid OEM skins still make it harder. Samsung has updated the SGS2 but what else has it updated? Not much which is the same as everybody else. You can't blame the carrier for my wife's WiFi Samsung Galaxy Tab 10.1 not having ICS yet, as there is no carrier. I can however blame the skin overlay changes Samsung made to Android 3.x which have to be ported to Android 4.x. ASUS updates the Transformer lines very quickly and that's because they don't have to do nearly as much as the other vendors because they leave Android alone.
 
Vermillion said:
So Google should have had input on devices in the development chain long before Google officially owned Motorola? Wow, I'd love to have you as a CEO so I could get your company to do whatever I want even though I'm not your boss.
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Google has had plenty of opportunities to get involved with pushing device makers to update phones better.
 
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Yes, carriers/oem's (esp US carriers) are a big part of the problem. But, and its a big but, Google was (and is) in a position to dictate terms to them or require some basic standards in the phones and software people get to use.

When people use their phones with crappy skins and no hope of an update, they don't say 'HTC is bad, maybe I'll try Samsung, or maybe I should try Motoblur'. They say 'Android sucks, I should've bought an iPhone or that nice Windows phone'.

This is the thing Google doesn't care about. To them, Android isn't a brand, its just an OS they open sourced.
 
MrCrispy said:
Yes, carriers/oem's (esp US carriers) are a big part of the problem. But, and its a big but, Google was (and is) in a position to dictate terms to them or require some basic standards in the phones and software people get to use.

When people use their phones with crappy skins and no hope of an update, they don't say 'HTC is bad, maybe I'll try Samsung, or maybe I should try Motoblur'. They say 'Android sucks, I should've bought an iPhone or that nice Windows phone'.

This is the thing Google doesn't care about. To them, Android isn't a brand, its just an OS they open sourced.
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Apple doesn't seem to have issues dictating their devices getting updates. Maybe Windows phone 7 either (not sure). It is definitively at least partly Google's fault.
 
obs said:
Apple doesn't seem to have issues dictating their devices getting updates. Maybe Windows phone 7 either (not sure). It is definitively at least partly Google's fault.
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Apple pushed the iOS updates manually for years via iTunes thus bypassing the carriers. Only recently did they even have the ability to do an OTA. They also force the carriers to bend over otherwise they don't get the very lucrative iPhone. We will probably never know if the carriers have the power to stop an iOS update since Apple will never publicly speak about such things.

Microsoft has strict hardware requirements on Windows Phone which helps them but the updates are still subject to carrier approval. Windows Phone also cannot be touched by the OEM's.

Paul Thurrot said:
In part 3 of my lengthy, 9-part Windows Phone review, I wrote that Microsoft had "reined in the wireless carriers' worst habit of all, and will be able to deliver software updates to all Windows Phone users going forward, and will in fact do so ... Microsoft is essentially ensuring that all Windows Phones will offer a high-value, consistent user experience, that its partners will not be able to screw up that experience, that users will be able to uninstall any partner software they do not want, and that in the future, the system will be upgraded with fixes and new features, and that the wireless carriers--for the most part--cannot prevent any of this from happening."

Ah yes. "For the most part." The truth, as I understood it then, was a bit more nuanced. At a reviewer workshop in October 2010, before the product launch, Microsoft's Joe Belfiore had told reviewers, "if a carrier wants to stop an update they can. But they will get it out on the next release." He added that updates were cumulative, which is true, but reiterated that "if one [carrier] doesn't get their testing done in time, the next push date comes and it goes out then."
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So in other words a carrier could block two or more Windows Phone updates if they wanted to and that would mean no update anytime soon.

Here's the link for that in case you want to read more. http://www.winsupersite.com/article/windowsphone75/windows-phone-software-updates-revisited-142382

Two closed source operating systems where OEM's can't do jack against an open source operating system where OEM's can do anything they want which could potentially break something. The only devices that get updates in a timely fashion (relatively quickly once source code is released) are GSM Nexus devices and it's easy to see why: Strict hardware requirements and the ROM comes straight from Google just like Windows Phone comes from MS and iOS comes from Apple.
 
For those talking about the Xoom: Google released the ICS binaries for the 4G/3G Xooms months ago and there are plenty of ICS roms that are fully functional. (Team EOS's is the best, in my opinion) The only reason why the Xoom 4G has not received an OTA update is because of Verizon. If you have a 3G Xoom and didn't grab the free upgrade to LTE, you might be SOL because Moto is no longer offering the upgrades.

Like others have said, Android is simply a platform for Google to deliver their services. They couldn't care less about what OEM's do with Android as long as the Google Apps suite is pre-loaded, they make money. The openess attracts a majority of OEMs as it gives them the opportunity to differentiate their phones from the competition through custom skins. This methodology, quite frankly, keeps them in business as Apple simply won't whore out iOS to any OEM and MS wants complete control over the SW on the phone. This is the reason why Microsoft is having such a hard time getting phone manufacturers to play ball as there really isn't much that differentiates phones from each other in the eyes of your average consumer. It's all about the UI.

As per the OP - all those phones were most likely not chosen because they do not have 1 GB of RAM. Personally, I think this is a good move on their part as Android can be quite frustrating to use when you have low amounts of RAM.

What's broken is the way in which we purchase phones. Yes, phones have very fast update cycles/tech improvements but many people lock themselves into 2 year contracts to get cheaper prices on phones. 2 years is an eon when it comes to the advancements made in phones and locking yourself in a contract hurts you more than it helps when looking in the long term.

If you want pure, unmolested Android, buying a GSM Nexus from Google is the way to go. When it comes down to it, the majority of the population simply wants phones that work, no matter how fast they become antiquated.
 
It's an open source operating system. What we are seeing now is an unfortunate negative about open source. There is no responsibility, which means no accountability. Carrier's and OEM's will do what makes them a profit. Hopefully we'll see a manufacture promise to provide updates for 2 years or so as a benefit for buying their hardware.
 
zzDarkwingDuck said:
It's an open source operating system. What we are seeing now is an unfortunate negative about open source. There is no responsibility, which means no accountability. Carrier's and OEM's will do what makes them a profit. Hopefully we'll see a manufacture promise to provide updates for 2 years or so as a benefit for buying their hardware.
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People should vote with their wallets. Don't like the SW upgrade policies of your current OEM? Find a better one and buy that phone next time.

For this reason I am only buying Nexus phones in the future whenever I possibly can.
 
ComputerBox34 said:
People should vote with their wallets. Don't like the SW upgrade policies of your current OEM? Find a better one and buy that phone next time.

For this reason I am only buying Nexus phones in the future whenever I possibly can.
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Google withheld the Nexus One Gingerbread updated to give another OEM a shot at having the only Gingerbread phone on the market with the Nexus S. Also some CDMA Nexus S phones got late firmware updates. So having a Nexus phone doesn't really guarantee you are always running the latest OS...
 
ocellaris said:
Google withheld the Nexus One Gingerbread updated to give another OEM a shot at having the only Gingerbread phone on the market with the Nexus S. Also some CDMA Nexus S phones got late firmware updates. So having a Nexus phone doesn't really guarantee you are always running the latest OS...
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No, not true. Gingerbread initially launched on the Nexus S, yes, but it wasn't withheld for the Nexus One. That would require the Nexus One's to be finished and just not pushed out - that isn't true. Work was still happening for Gingerbread on the N1. The NS launched when it was finished (higher priority, finished sooner), the N1's update came out when it was finished (and for a while it had a newer version of GB than the NS did).

Each device needs work to run the new OS. It isn't like a PC where you can just install it and have it work. Different radios slow this down, and carriers slow it down a *lot*

Withholding updates to force upgrades is what Apple does, only they do the clever trick where they pretend to update but don't actually give you the new thing that the update was supposed to provide. See: Siri, multitasking, or even just being able to use an image for your homescreen background.

obs said:
Apple doesn't seem to have issues dictating their devices getting updates. Maybe Windows phone 7 either (not sure). It is definitively at least partly Google's fault.
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WP7 had all the exact same problems updating to 7.5 or whatever it was. Carriers sat on the update for months, and the new rumor is the existing WP7 phones won't get WP8 at all.

MrCrispy said:
They don't seem to care about reducing Android fragmentation, they've officially said they consider it an oem problem.
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That simply isn't true. It is often repeated, but not even remotely true. Google is very aggressive on the fragmentation front, which is why there *isn't* any API fragmentation among the devices that ship with Google's apps.

But fragmentation is so overloaded it has no real meaning these days anyway. It's now just a generic "I don't like this".

GLSauron said:
Being open source, there really isn't much google could do about it. Withholding their proprietary apps, maps and market and the like, would be counter-productive.
Click to expand...

That's actually exactly what Google does. If you fragment the platform, you don't get Google's stuff. If you don't play by Google's rules, you don't get Google's stuff. This is from last year, but it's still totally true today: http://www.theverge.com/2011/05/12/google-android-skyhook-lawsuit-motorola-samsung/
 
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