mITX - Room for an additional card...

[crABtoad]

Got my new motherboard (ASRock Z77E-ITX ) a couple days back. Considering the SG05 for a case... Been looking over some dimensions for my upcoming build and I have a couple options:

A) Get a single-slot GPU and mount the sound card in a standard expansion bay.

B) Get a double-slot GPU and mount the sound card "somewhere".



Going with option "B", best somewhere I can think of is the optical drive bay. It's already got a hole for the sound card IO and everything.

Sound card is an ASUS Essence STX, listed as 168.26mm.

SG05 is about 276mm front to back... Fairly sure the ST45SF-G (450 gold modular) is 100mm...

gives me about 7.75 mm between the PSU and sound card, probably just enough for some power cabling.

Anyone know of a great reason why this wouldn't fit? A bad reason is fine too.

 

[Machupo]

Hell, give it a shot -- be sure to take pics

Just curious where you're getting the pcie connection, though, if the videocard is going to take the pcie x16 slot.

 

[ekuest]

i dont understand how this works. you only have 1 pcie slot. am i missing something?

 

[WiSK]

it's got a mini-pcie

 

[ekuest]

so youre getting rid of the wireless adapter? i didnt even know pcie to mpcie adapters existed. i guess it makes sense though. whats the power limit on mpcie? data-wise is it limited to x4 or something?

 

[Machupo]

it's got a mini-pcie

it's got a half-height mpcie on top -- is it a full pcie 1x or the old-style USB lane mediated kind; I don't know, I haven't seen a pinout for the Z77E-ITX yet. Only one way to find out.

it also has a full size msata slot on the back, I don't know if it's dual capable (I have a msata ssd in mine). There also may not be room underneath the board to hook up an adapter.

All of these are mays, so it just takes one person to get it and try it out

 

[Machupo]

so youre getting rid of the wireless adapter? i didnt even know pcie to mpcie adapters existed. i guess it makes sense though. whats the power limit on mpcie? data-wise is it limited to x4 or something?

x1.

 

[crABtoad]

x1.

This^

Here's the adapter, and here's the Cablesaurus PCIE x1 extender I might need to use. The extender cable isn't needed for length, but it fits into smaller spaces than the adapter board for the amfeltec unit. Getting an ASUS Essence STX for the adapter.

Covered this in another thread when I was brainstorming about my build. The problem is... If I use a single slot GPU I'm sacrificing quite a bit of video performance on an otherwise excellent rig. Mini-PCIE provides x1 PCIE bandwidth at a bus level, the mSATA slot can't be used like this because it's electrically wired to the SATA controller instead.

The best card I can find so far in Canada is the XFX Ghost 7750 Single Slot. AFOX makes a 7850 single slot but I haven't really had much success emailing them, just lots of "we'll get right on it" by several different reps.

It's a game of millimetres, the electrical component to this works, I think.

 

[crABtoad]

Hell, give it a shot -- be sure to take pics

Just curious where you're getting the pcie connection, though, if the videocard is going to take the pcie x16 slot.

Yeah, I'll definitely throw up some pics for you all when I try this. I'm basically just going to buy the parts and see if it fits. I'll be crushed if it doesn't, euphoric otherwise. Might take me a couple months to get all the bits and POST but for sure.

Just thought that the case has some thickness too... 0.6mm SECC*2 front and back, we're down to 6.55mm or so. Do you guys think this would fit cabling? sound card has a 4pin molex on it...

Just found out that the molex connect is right on the edge of the asus card so the white plug part hangs right off the end and it's about 16mm including bending the power leads off the end of the PSU molex.

Do they make "thin" 4pin molex or could I unsheathe those cables? I know the the plastic acts as an insulator but I could probably figure out something smaller like electrical tape in between them. Does this make sense?

I guess the other questions would be... Does ASUS measure the whole card including the IO plugs on the end of it, or just the PCB itself?

Alright, I think I answered my own question actually.. I just unsheathed a 4pin male molex connector, and the power leads with bent cable are around 6mm. I'll need to tape up the leads but this seems legit now.

0.55mm seems like a pretty low margin for screw-ups with the dimensions though...

 

[ekuest]

you should get a double slot card. not only are you limiting yourself performance-wise with single slot, but are also just hotter and/or louder in general. i dont see why this shouldnt work, sounds like a cool idea. how are you planning to hook your audio up to the sound card if its inside the case?

 

[crABtoad]

you should get a double slot card. not only are you limiting yourself performance-wise with single slot, but are also just hotter and/or louder in general. i dont see why this shouldnt work, sounds like a cool idea. how are you planning to hook your audio up to the sound card if its inside the case?

The slim loading optical drive is *around* 16.7mm and it should fit the IO for the sound card if I don't have a stupid optical drive in it. audio goes out the front...

^edit:// 16.7mm tall^

 

[CrimandEvil]

What about using a USB DAC/sound card?

 

[crABtoad]

I'd have a wasted mini pcie slot, the signal:noise ratio would be lower, I wouldn't have as much fun building it, and I wouldn't know if it was possible or not, wouldn't be as awesome basically.

^After a quick glance at newegg.ca... my onboard sound has better SNR than USB sound cards.

 

[Gab]

Even with "pro" (or so) USB soundcards ? (200€ and higher for something decent—I'm thinking Roland, Native Instruments, etc.)

But yeah, it would be less fun than achieving what you want with the mini PCIe.

 

[Skripka]

I'd have a wasted mini pcie slot, the signal:noise ratio would be lower, I wouldn't have as much fun building it, and I wouldn't know if it was possible or not, wouldn't be as awesome basically.

^After a quick glance at newegg.ca... my onboard sound has better SNR than USB sound cards.

There's more to audio quality than SNR.

I'd also strongly consider USB DACs in the OP's situation, since the alternative is ghetto rigging something that may not work. Especially since it doesn't seem like he needs 5/7.1 outs. Only catch being if you need on-the-fly DDLive or DTS encoding for an AVR sound setup in gaming. That is the only reason not to consider a USB DAC.

 

[crABtoad]

Even with "pro" (or so) USB soundcards ? (200€ and higher for something decent—I'm thinking Roland, Native Instruments, etc.)

But yeah, it would be less fun than achieving what you want with the mini PCIe.

There's more to audio quality than SNR.

I'd also strongly consider USB DACs in the OP's situation, since the alternative is ghetto rigging something that may not work. Especially since it doesn't seem like he needs 5/7.1 outs. Only catch being if you need on-the-fly DDLive or DTS encoding for an AVR sound setup in gaming. That is the only reason not to consider a USB DAC.

Yeah, it's an idea I had like last year when I was planning a Zotac Z68 wi-fi build that I ended up not being able to afford because of expenses... I think I've got to try it anyway. My plan was to just hook up any old pcie x1 card to the adapter and see if it'll get recognized software side. If that works, I'll buy the asus card and check it out next.

I was concerned about introducing EMI from the adapter or the bus, but the asus card seems to have pretty decent shielding for the analog paths. I realize there's more to good audio signal than just SNR, but I'm also a huge noob with audio. This will be my first decent sound equipment in life (if it works ). I was going to hook it up to a trends audio bi-amp setup that I don't own yet, and I think it would be awesome to have an end-all home media box hooked up to a projector. I probably won't even use the digital outs on the card.

Worst case scenario is I have a sound card to use in another rig down the road, they don't seem to deprecate like most other hardware.

If it fits, if it works, and if it sounds good... It'll be pretty neat I guess.

 

[Skripka]

Yeah, it's an idea I had like last year when I was planning a Zotac Z68 wi-fi build that I ended up not being able to afford because of expenses... I think I've got to try it anyway. My plan was to just hook up any old pcie x1 card to the adapter and see if it'll get recognized software side. If that works, I'll buy the asus card and check it out next.

I was concerned about introducing EMI from the adapter or the bus, but the asus card seems to have pretty decent shielding for the analog paths. I realize there's more to good audio signal than just SNR, but I'm also a huge noob with audio. This will be my first decent sound equipment in life (if it works ). I was going to hook it up to a trends audio bi-amp setup that I don't own yet, and I think it would be awesome to have an end-all home media box hooked up to a projector. I probably won't even use the digital outs on the card.

Worst case scenario is I have a sound card to use in another rig down the road, they don't seem to deprecate like most other hardware.

If it fits, if it works, and if it sounds good... It'll be pretty neat I guess.

Your call, STX can put out nice audio though I think the stock op-amps aren't that great. Me, I'd do it right and get an external DAC though they start running into bucks and are usually much more geared toward stereo output be it monitors or cans. Putting in adapters can introduce extra noise etc presuming for discussion it works.

 

[rolling_tiger]

Another vote for usb soundcard/external dac here.

Its great for sff pc and when you're out, you could also use it for your laptop with headphones.

But if your heart is set on the adaptor and you get it to work they way you want, more power to you

 

[crABtoad]

I checked out the asus xonar essence one briefly, seems like it's approximately the same as the essence stx pcie card but it's 3 times the price. Is there something I'm missing here? Are these really that superior for sound quality?

 

[Gab]

I sincerely doubt it. I have not read any review, but if I were to shell that much money on a soundcard, I would not gat an Asus to begin with.

 

[crABtoad]

Could anyone recommend some decent lower price USB DACs? I'll definitely keep it on the shelf as an option, but I'm already spending ~$1K on the pre-amp and dual amps. The Essence STX sounded like a great card for a reasonable price. "Real audiophile sound" and all that. I think I'll just end up talking myself into trying this for science and all, but it's good to have options too. I assumed [incorrectly] that USB sound card/DACs had lower sound quality.

 

[CrimandEvil]

I assumed [incorrectly] that USB sound card/DACs had lower sound quality.

Yes. Yes you did. I don't know enough to recommend any but I'm sure one of the guys here can suggest some good ones.

 

[crABtoad]

Yes. Yes you did. I don't know enough to recommend any but I'm sure one of the guys here can suggest some good ones.

Sorry if I came across cold previously. I was just in a huge rush doing something else when I posted, and listed off a bunch of stuff.

I think i'll still go ahead with the ghetto fit. I feel confident enough in the adapter and the emi shielding on the analog paths.

It'll be fun anyway, we'll see.

 

[Skripka]

Could anyone recommend some decent lower price USB DACs? I'll definitely keep it on the shelf as an option, but I'm already spending ~$1K on the pre-amp and dual amps. The Essence STX sounded like a great card for a reasonable price. "Real audiophile sound" and all that. I think I'll just end up talking myself into trying this for science and all, but it's good to have options too. I assumed [incorrectly] that USB sound card/DACs had lower sound quality.

Good place to start, Headphonia: http://www.headfonia.com/source-recommendations/ s;; the gear recommended has a review on his website.

 

[crABtoad]

Your combined reason has swayed my original build. I'll probably end up getting a ~$300 outboard DAC once I know a little more about the tech.

So what do I use this useless mini pcie card for? The adapter still seems like a really awesome idea. Any votes for a mini-pcie card or pcie x1 card beyond a wi-fi adapter?

One of my buddies builds ICs professionally and he cautioned me against trying to duplex something with the main board on this adapter (like SLI or RAID)

 

[Machupo]

I ran raid0 (and raid 1 in a different build) just fine out of a mpcie card on my zotac h55 board

 

[crABtoad]

Yeah, I'm not really sure what I expected to magically fit on a mini-pcie or pcie x1 card... Looks like subpar graphics cards I don't need, sound cards that might not sound good, various storage level controllers, and network interface cards...

Best ideas I can come up with are the sound card idea I had previously and an ethernet NIC to run a router as a virtual machine...

Edit:// My board already has 4 sata ports I'm potentially not using (SG05)

 

[Machupo]

I think there was a tv tuner for the slot as well, but that was a while ago. If you've got the mpcie to pcie1x converter, you could always get a ceton infinitv4 and make it a super-tivo (more money to spend!)

 

[crABtoad]

As awesome as that sounds I actually watch very little TV. Just downloaded shows/movies and progamer live streams.

 

[negaprion]

I think there was a tv tuner for the slot as well, but that was a while ago. If you've got the mpcie to pcie1x converter, you could always get a ceton infinitv4 and make it a super-tivo (more money to spend!)

Yeah there's plenty of AVerMedia TV tuners available for mini PCIe slots and they go for pretty cheap off eBay. The only problem is that they use a u.fl/IPX connector and tracking down an u.fl/IPX to F connector cable is somewhat difficult. I found a Chinese company that will build one to custom length but I'm not sure about the quality.

 

[crABtoad]

Yeah, I'll figure something out. I almost wish I'd never found that amfeltec adapter... Real pandora's box for building, if it works, of course.

 

[StanRex]

Your combined reason has swayed my original build. I'll probably end up getting a ~$300 outboard DAC once I know a little more about the tech.

Honestly, there is absolutely no need to spend that much on a USB DAC.

You can get excellent ones usb or even optical if you're worried about electrical interferences in the 50-100 range (or even a little more).

I personnaly got a Poppulse 707 DAC, that I use with optical, and it's absolutely.

Spending a lot more on the DAC isn't really justified unless you plan to hook it up to a 10k$+ amp + speakers setup (and even in that case, I doubt that it would be of any use)

 

[crABtoad]

The preamp/amps I'm using are going to be the trends audio ba-10 setup. I don't know much about sound equipment in all honesty, but I did some research on them and the sound quality seems to have an excellent price: performance ratio. People readily compare them to $3000 setups from what I hear.

Anyone know a good place online I could order a decent DAC from canada? Any thoughts regarding the Fiio E17? I almost got one of their portable amps awhile back, they seem okay.