MIDI interface?

[cyclone3d]

So I have been looking for a decently priced MIDI interface to use with my computer. I only need a single MIDI IN/OUT for now.

I was originally looking at USB, but from what I was reading, the USB ones sometimes have issues with timing, and the cheapo ones seem to be hit or miss on whether they work at all.

The PCI and PCIe cards that are specifically made for MIDI (not just a cheapo sound card with MIDI included) are fairly expensive and I really don't need something like that now anyway.

Does anybody have any recommendations for MIDI interfaces (personal experience)?

EDIT: I have one of the cheapo usb-MIDI cables coming so I will post back here after I test it.

I am still looking for suggestions though.

 

[plinko]

With modern PCs, you're pretty much limited to the USB-MIDI interfaces. I've had a good run with my Emu 1x1 for several years. It works flawlessly with all the outboard gear in my sig. One MIDI in and one out is all you really need. You can always add a MIDI thru box later if you need more outputs.
It's pretty cheap on Amazon.

 

[cyclone3d]

With modern PCs, you're pretty much limited to the USB-MIDI interfaces. I've had a good run with my Emu 1x1 for several years. It works flawlessly with all the outboard gear in my sig. One MIDI in and one out is all you really need. You can always add a MIDI thru box later if you need more outputs.
It's pretty cheap on Amazon.

Well, here's to hoping the cheapo USB one I ordered works ok. I will be doing some tests including sending SYSEX to and from the keyboard.

I also ended up ordering an old parallel based one and hope it will work ok in Windows 7/8. If not, I will try to write a driver based off of the one available for Linux.

Also thinking about picking up a serial based one as those should work fine as well.

 

[jbltecnicspro]

So I have been looking for a decently priced MIDI interface to use with my computer. I only need a single MIDI IN/OUT for now.

I was originally looking at USB, but from what I was reading, the USB ones sometimes have issues with timing, and the cheapo ones seem to be hit or miss on whether they work at all.

The PCI and PCIe cards that are specifically made for MIDI (not just a cheapo sound card with MIDI included) are fairly expensive and I really don't need something like that now anyway.

Does anybody have any recommendations for MIDI interfaces (personal experience)?

EDIT: I have one of the cheapo usb-MIDI cables coming so I will post back here after I test it.

I am still looking for suggestions though.

Out of curiosity, what are you trying to do? I'm just asking because I'm hoping that I've run into another enthusiast with a sound module or the like. I personally have a Roland MT-32 module and a Sound Canvas SC-8850.

 

[cyclone3d]

Out of curiosity, what are you trying to do? I'm just asking because I'm hoping that I've run into another enthusiast with a sound module or the like. I personally have a Roland MT-32 module and a Sound Canvas SC-8850.

I found a Yamaha DX7 II FD fm synthesizer keyboard in a construction dumpster. A CR2032 battery replacement and reload of the internal patches and it works like new.

I want to be able to load different patches as well as do some recording once I actually get decent at playing a keyboard again.

I am also super exited about the fact that I will be able to program my own custom patches.

I'm also contemplating buying a sound module to be able to do even more stuff with it.

 

[cyclone3d]

Out of curiosity, what are you trying to do? I'm just asking because I'm hoping that I've run into another enthusiast with a sound module or the like. I personally have a Roland MT-32 module and a Sound Canvas SC-8850.

Well.... now I guess I have a reason to pull out my retro gaming machine and actually use it for something. I just bought a Roland SC-88VL.

Prices on the MT-32 modules are kinda high.. I will have to keep my eye out for a cheaper one.

The specs of the computer are:
Slot-A T-bird
Voodoo 5-5500 AGP
Sound Blaster Awe 64 Gold!
Some stupid high amount of RAM.. especially for running Win98SE

And if I can't get the MIDI adapters to work in Win7/8, I guess i will be using that machine for my keyboard as well.

 

[jbltecnicspro]

Windows 7 can easily handle MIDI adapters...

Well... Now that I think of it I shouldn't say that as I've only tried the MIDI interfaces in the Sound Canvas (it has two built in, in addition to itself being counted as a MIDI device. ). SC-88? Nice! If I had to do a gaming rig that included MIDI, the SC-88 would be on the short list. The SC-55 mode sounds identical to the real SC-55 (the SC-55 mode on my 8850 sadly doesn't), except it has a thicker sound and is more full than a real SC-55 (SC-55's sound a little thin). Congratulations!

EDIT: And I'm sure you already know this, but I mention the SC-55 mode because most General MIDI games were written for it in mind.

 

[cyclone3d]

Windows 7 can easily handle MIDI adapters...

Well... Now that I think of it I shouldn't say that as I've only tried the MIDI interfaces in the Sound Canvas (it has two built in, in addition to itself being counted as a MIDI device. ). SC-88? Nice! If I had to do a gaming rig that included MIDI, the SC-88 would be on the short list. The SC-55 mode sounds identical to the real SC-55 (the SC-55 mode on my 8850 sadly doesn't), except it has a thicker sound and is more full than a real SC-55 (SC-55's sound a little thin). Congratulations!

EDIT: And I'm sure you already know this, but I mention the SC-55 mode because most General MIDI games were written for it in mind.

I know 7/8 can handle MIDI adapters. The reson I was asking was because of the reported latency/timing issues with USB adapters.

Anyhow, the cheapy one seems to work fine for playing stuff. I haven't tried anything else with it though.

I've also got another USB interface that I haven't tried yet since I am waiting on MIDI cables to arrive.

I also picked up a parallel one that doesn't have drivers past either 98 or 2000, But a Linux driver is available, so I might be able to cook up a newer driver for it based on the Linuz source.

The serial interface on the SC-88 does not have drivers for anything past XP from what I was able to find.

The SC-88 also needs to have access to 2 MIDI ports if I want to use all the channels.

Also, it has a CM-64 mode which gives you MT32 compatibility. I haven't tested it yet, but I also found that there is a utility that remaps the SC-88 to use it as an MT-32.

Going to have me some fun once my MIDI cables arrive.

 

[jbltecnicspro]

I know 7/8 can handle MIDI adapters. The reson I was asking was because of the reported latency/timing issues with USB adapters.

Anyhow, the cheapy one seems to work fine for playing stuff. I haven't tried anything else with it though.

I've also got another USB interface that I haven't tried yet since I am waiting on MIDI cables to arrive.

I also picked up a parallel one that doesn't have drivers past either 98 or 2000, But a Linux driver is available, so I might be able to cook up a newer driver for it based on the Linuz source.

The serial interface on the SC-88 does not have drivers for anything past XP from what I was able to find.

The SC-88 also needs to have access to 2 MIDI ports if I want to use all the channels.

Also, it has a CM-64 mode which gives you MT32 compatibility. I haven't tested it yet, but I also found that there is a utility that remaps the SC-88 to use it as an MT-32.

Going to have me some fun once my MIDI cables arrive.

Keep in mind that the SC-88 is not fully compatible with the MT-32. The MT-32 mode that you describe is a simple patch set of default MT-32 instruments. There are VERY FEW games that I know of that use only the default set. You will need a real MT-32 for MT-32 games. Roland MT-32 games make extensive use of MT-32 sysex and create new patches for it that the Sound Canvas series cannot understand and will ignore.

EDIT: So for MT-32 games, you'll need to buy one. Otherwise for General MIDI games, you're set. For old school DOS gamers, the best combo to get is an SC-55 and an MT-32. The combo unit - the CM-500 (MT-32 and SC-55 in one) is bad because its revision has vibrato that is off. Some patches sound weird.

 

[cyclone3d]

Keep in mind that the SC-88 is not fully compatible with the MT-32. The MT-32 mode that you describe is a simple patch set of default MT-32 instruments. There are VERY FEW games that I know of that use only the default set. You will need a real MT-32 for MT-32 games. Roland MT-32 games make extensive use of MT-32 sysex and create new patches for it that the Sound Canvas series cannot understand and will ignore.

EDIT: So for MT-32 games, you'll need to buy one. Otherwise for General MIDI games, you're set. For old school DOS gamers, the best combo to get is an SC-55 and an MT-32. The combo unit - the CM-500 (MT-32 and SC-55 in one) is bad because its revision has vibrato that is off. Some patches sound weird.

The SC-55 and MT-32 prices are quite high. If I ever seen an MT-32 for cheap, I will probably pick it up.

On the other hand...... why not just write a program that intercepts sysex from games that use the MT-32 and have it convert the messages to SC-55 sysex? It shouldn't affect the actual output as the sysex should be sent at game/level load or whatever. And even if it happens in-game, it shouldn't be sending sysex mid-song. And even if it did, with how fast computers are today, and with proper programming, any slight delay wouldn't really be noticeable.

EDIT: Ooohhh..and look.. from the description, this program should at least be able to capture all of the midi/sysex messages so I can see what is going on. This is a huge help in making a MT-32 to SC-55 sysex convertor:
http://www.midiox.com/

 

[jbltecnicspro]

The SC-55 and MT-32 prices are quite high. If I ever seen an MT-32 for cheap, I will probably pick it up.

On the other hand...... why not just write a program that intercepts sysex from games that use the MT-32 and have it convert the messages to SC-55 sysex? It shouldn't affect the actual output as the sysex should be sent at game/level load or whatever. And even if it happens in-game, it shouldn't be sending sysex mid-song. And even if it did, with how fast computers are today, and with proper programming, any slight delay wouldn't really be noticeable.

EDIT: Ooohhh..and look.. from the description, this program should at least be able to capture all of the midi/sysex messages so I can see what is going on. This is a huge help in making a MT-32 to SC-55 sysex convertor:
http://www.midiox.com/

Won't work. MT-32 and Sound Canvas (all of them) have no architectural similarities. Sorry. MT-32 uses the LA32 chip used in Roland's D-50 keyboard. Sound Canvases use something entirely different. Besides, Sound Canvases are all artificially gimped to not be able to create new patches. You need a real synth for that (MT-32 is one).

 

[cyclone3d]

Won't work. MT-32 and Sound Canvas (all of them) have no architectural similarities. Sorry. MT-32 uses the LA32 chip used in Roland's D-50 keyboard. Sound Canvases use something entirely different. Besides, Sound Canvases are all artificially gimped to not be able to create new patches. You need a real synth for that (MT-32 is one).

Ok, got it.. bleh.

I do have a real synth as well, but it is FM, not MIDI.

I wonder if MUNT will ever get to the point of being pretty accurate in emulating the MT-32.

 

[jbltecnicspro]

Ok, got it.. bleh.

I do have a real synth as well, but it is FM, not MIDI.

I wonder if MUNT will ever get to the point of being pretty accurate in emulating the MT-32.

Not sure what you mean by real synth versus MIDI. I'll help you out: MIDI is just the transfer method - it's a cable and a protocol. Nothing more. MIDI is how musical instruments communicate with one another. Tons of real synthesizers use MIDI. What I mean by "real synth" is that with a real synthesizer, you can take waveforms and create your own patches and sounds. These waveforms maybe FM-based, digital sample-based, etc (for the record, MT-32 is a combo of both).

The Sound Canvas units are what are known as "ROMplers." That is, they play samples that are stored in ROM. Higher-end Rolands are also ROMplers as well, except the difference between a Sound Canvas SC-8850 and an XV-2020 (besides the XV-2020 having better samples, in general) is that with the XV, you can create new sounds from scratch using its samples. Whereas with the Sound Canvas, what you got is what you got. The best you can do with a Sound Canvas, as far as editing is concerned, is edit the patch's Attack Sustain Release and Decay. That's IT!

Roland's MT-32, on the other hand, is a true synthesizer. For whatever reason, Roland allowed full control of the LA32 chip in MIDI sysex. With the Sound Canvas line, they didn't. And unfortunately, without serious modification to the ROM of the unit, you won't be touching the chip's architecture any time soon.

Many, many games take advantage of the MT-32's programability. So much so that you NEED an MT-32 to experience those games as you should. Hope this clears things up.

 

[cyclone3d]

Not sure what you mean by real synth versus MIDI. I'll help you out: MIDI is just the transfer method - it's a cable and a protocol. Nothing more. MIDI is how musical instruments communicate with one another. Tons of real synthesizers use MIDI. What I mean by "real synth" is that with a real synthesizer, you can take waveforms and create your own patches and sounds. These waveforms maybe FM-based, digital sample-based, etc (for the record, MT-32 is a combo of both).

The Sound Canvas units are what are known as "ROMplers." That is, they play samples that are stored in ROM. Higher-end Rolands are also ROMplers as well, except the difference between a Sound Canvas SC-8850 and an XV-2020 (besides the XV-2020 having better samples, in general) is that with the XV, you can create new sounds from scratch using its samples. Whereas with the Sound Canvas, what you got is what you got. The best you can do with a Sound Canvas, as far as editing is concerned, is edit the patch's Attack Sustain Release and Decay. That's IT!

Roland's MT-32, on the other hand, is a true synthesizer. For whatever reason, Roland allowed full control of the LA32 chip in MIDI sysex. With the Sound Canvas line, they didn't. And unfortunately, without serious modification to the ROM of the unit, you won't be touching the chip's architecture any time soon.

Many, many games take advantage of the MT-32's programability. So much so that you NEED an MT-32 to experience those games as you should. Hope this clears things up.

Sorry, I meant Wavetable, not MIDI.

 

[jbltecnicspro]

Oh okay. Now, for what it's worth, I've heard of people making sound fonts for specific games that are supported by the MT-32. But of course, it wouldn't sound the same. Most games, if I recall correctly, just write new sounds to the unit and rearrange the patch order just once, and they never create new sounds after the game has loaded. I know of only one game that will send sophisticated sysex to games and that's Wing Commander.

If you eventually get a unit, I would actually recommend a CM-32L. This is the "Computer Music" module of the LAPC-I. LAPC is the sound-card version of the MT-32, except that it has 33 additional sound effects in the drum kit. Some games (a few - not a lot) actually use the extra sound effects. But then again, if you get a CM-32L, it won't have a screen and therefore you'll miss out on the special messages that you would see on the unit. I feel they're gimmicky, but some people do care about it. CM-32L has none of the buffer overflow problems that the first generation MT-32's have, and they have the extra sound effects. But they're more rare (and expensive).

 

[cyclone3d]

Oh okay. Now, for what it's worth, I've heard of people making sound fonts for specific games that are supported by the MT-32. But of course, it wouldn't sound the same. Most games, if I recall correctly, just write new sounds to the unit and rearrange the patch order just once, and they never create new sounds after the game has loaded. I know of only one game that will send sophisticated sysex to games and that's Wing Commander.

If you eventually get a unit, I would actually recommend a CM-32L. This is the "Computer Music" module of the LAPC-I. LAPC is the sound-card version of the MT-32, except that it has 33 additional sound effects in the drum kit. Some games (a few - not a lot) actually use the extra sound effects. But then again, if you get a CM-32L, it won't have a screen and therefore you'll miss out on the special messages that you would see on the unit. I feel they're gimmicky, but some people do care about it. CM-32L has none of the buffer overflow problems that the first generation MT-32's have, and they have the extra sound effects. But they're more rare (and expensive).

And it has to be Wing Commander.. one of my all-time favorite space combat games.

I'll keep my eye out for a good priced MT-32 and CM-32L. From what I was reading, some of the older games were programmed specifically to work with the MT-32 that had the buffer problems and don't sound quite right on the newer MT-32 or similar.

So much complication to make everything sound like it should.

As for the old junky FM music that was heard by the masses, I never really had to do that as I bought a used 4MB hardware wavetable card for like $20 probably less than a year after I got my first PC, which was an 80386sx-25Mhz. I guess maybe some stuff wasn't quite right, but it sure is a lot better than the FM synth stuff on games that supported Roland stuff.

 

[jbltecnicspro]

And it has to be Wing Commander.. one of my all-time favorite space combat games.

I'll keep my eye out for a good priced MT-32 and CM-32L. From what I was reading, some of the older games were programmed specifically to work with the MT-32 that had the buffer problems and don't sound quite right on the newer MT-32 or similar.

So much complication to make everything sound like it should.

As for the old junky FM music that was heard by the masses, I never really had to do that as I bought a used 4MB hardware wavetable card for like $20 probably less than a year after I got my first PC, which was an 80386sx-25Mhz. I guess maybe some stuff wasn't quite right, but it sure is a lot better than the FM synth stuff on games that supported Roland stuff.

If you want to play Wing Commander correctly, I think that the first gen MT-32's actually crash in that game due to the buffer overflow error. CM-32L or second generation MT-32 (one with the headphones) is the best bet for no locks. But the first gens are the ones that Sierra used for their games. The sound differences are there, but they're subtle. And only worth it if you're nit-picky.

That SC-88, on the other hand, is sweet. In my opinion, it sounds better than an SC-55 when in its SC-55 mode, even though it uses the same samples. The sound character is more full-bodied. I believe that you have the best gaming MIDI device because of that. I believe that it goes like this:

SC-55 (the one that started it all) > SC-88
SC-88pro > SC-8850.

That is - the SC-55 and SC-88 share the same sound engine, but the SC-88 is a beefed up version.

The SC-88pro, on the other hand sounds VERY different than the SC-88 and below. It also adds multi-FX (real distortion for guitars, for example)

Then the big daddy - SC-8850 - is a suped-up SC-88pro. They sound identical when the SC-8850 is in 88pro mode. But like the 88pro, doesn't sound like the earlier units when put in their respective modes...

So the SC-88 is the best of its heritage, in that it has the same exact samples as the SC-55 (in SC-55 mode that is) and shares the same engine, albeit with better sound quality. Whereas the 88pro uses a different engine and will sound different than the SC-55 when in SC-55 mode, and won't render old games accurately. Likewise with the 8850 - it's essentially a double-polyphony, double-channel device (can crank out 128 voices and has 64 channels of MIDI!!).

And yeah, there's a bunch of stuff out there that complicates it. My personal best setup would be a CM-32L and SC-88 for DOS games. I could care less about the screens on the MT-32, and the extra sounds are good to have, not to mention you'll NEVER have buffer overflow problems. You give up a couple of MT-32 proper renderings in games like Kings Quest V, but I couldn't care less.

EDIT:

And yes, the Sierra games were written to take advantage of the first generation MT-32's (numerous) bugs. The other prominent bug is that it had some ring-modulation error in it. Space Quest 4 exploits this to create an electric shock sound that isn't rendered properly in the later generation units... Because Roland fixed the bug. Not that it matters though, because in the CM-500 (the last known LA revision), they INTRODUCED a vibrato bug that makes sounds like "Whistle" over-vibrate like crazy! It sounds awful.

Sorry - probably more info than you wanted...

 

[cyclone3d]

If you want to play Wing Commander correctly, I think that the first gen MT-32's actually crash in that game due to the buffer overflow error. CM-32L or second generation MT-32 (one with the headphones) is the best bet for no locks. But the first gens are the ones that Sierra used for their games. The sound differences are there, but they're subtle. And only worth it if you're nit-picky.

That SC-88, on the other hand, is sweet. In my opinion, it sounds better than an SC-55 when in its SC-55 mode, even though it uses the same samples. The sound character is more full-bodied. I believe that you have the best gaming MIDI device because of that. I believe that it goes like this:

SC-55 (the one that started it all) > SC-88
SC-88pro > SC-8850.

That is - the SC-55 and SC-88 share the same sound engine, but the SC-88 is a beefed up version.

The SC-88pro, on the other hand sounds VERY different than the SC-88 and below. It also adds multi-FX (real distortion for guitars, for example)

Then the big daddy - SC-8850 - is a suped-up SC-88pro. They sound identical when the SC-8850 is in 88pro mode. But like the 88pro, doesn't sound like the earlier units when put in their respective modes...

So the SC-88 is the best of its heritage, in that it has the same exact samples as the SC-55 (in SC-55 mode that is) and shares the same engine, albeit with better sound quality. Whereas the 88pro uses a different engine and will sound different than the SC-55 when in SC-55 mode, and won't render old games accurately. Likewise with the 8850 - it's essentially a double-polyphony, double-channel device (can crank out 128 voices and has 64 channels of MIDI!!).

And yeah, there's a bunch of stuff out there that complicates it. My personal best setup would be a CM-32L and SC-88 for DOS games. I could care less about the screens on the MT-32, and the extra sounds are good to have, not to mention you'll NEVER have buffer overflow problems. You give up a couple of MT-32 proper renderings in games like Kings Quest V, but I couldn't care less.

EDIT:

And yes, the Sierra games were written to take advantage of the first generation MT-32's (numerous) bugs. The other prominent bug is that it had some ring-modulation error in it. Space Quest 4 exploits this to create an electric shock sound that isn't rendered properly in the later generation units... Because Roland fixed the bug. Not that it matters though, because in the CM-500 (the last known LA revision), they INTRODUCED a vibrato bug that makes sounds like "Whistle" over-vibrate like crazy! It sounds awful.

Sorry - probably more info than you wanted...

Heh. The more info the better. Thx.