Microwave satellite dish must be installed 350 ft away from house, too long for CAT5e

Cerulean

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Greetings,

One of the few options we have if we go with Total highspeed (So far, this is the best possible option. it is unlimited, and gives a decent speed. All other ISPs are limited, cost more, and dont work as well.
Plus, we have already tested most of them.) Thing is, the antenna is not visible from our house. Two options: Cut down all trees in path, which may not work because of neighbors, or we could have it placed at the end of our driveway. Thing is, our driveway is roughly 350ft away from our house, and cat5 ethernet only travels about 300ft which even then is a bit sketchy. Any idea on how we could get etherent from point A to point B, over 350ft? Prefferably not fiber, which is quite expensive. we could use cat5 extenders, but all of this would have to be burried. Any radio type device worth using? Or how about the two adapters you had purchased that we have in our house that sends the internets through the power line? We could potentially (and may actually have to) run a power line out to there. Or do they not work for such distances? Also, (which may be hard/expensive/impossible) such a method that has low latency and minimal package loss?
thnx,

Short version:
  • In the area where most of my family lives is an ISP called Total Highspeed that offers a microwave-based wireless hop from their station in town about 7 miles away to residents living in the rural country
  • My parent's driveway is very long
  • The only place the technician can install the microwave dish is 350 feet away from the house (exceeding the 100m specification of CAT 5e) at the end of the driveway
  • The internet connection my parents will be receiving serves 128 KB/s down (1 Mbps) and something 32-48 KB/s up I think

Looking for a solution. Would it still be OK to use a CAT 5e cable, or would a repeater be required, or would we need to do something like use CAT 5e to coax adapters?

Would this work?
Only issue would be making sure the adapter unit that is 350 feet away outside doesn't exceed the 40 Celcius (104 F) temperatures, and also running clean voltage regulated power to it (which means additional $$$ for installation). Here in rural Missouri temperatures can reach 100 F during summer (in few cases even exceed them by a few degrees) and as low as -10 F during winter (but usually doesn't go below 0 F).
 

Red Squirrel

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I would try some quality cat6, maybe even shielded.

Otherwise, you could use fibre. Personally I'd probably go the fibre route, just to isolate the tower from the equipment inside the house in case of a lightning strike.

The ethernet over coax looks interesting, that could maybe also work.

I'd be worried about the 100F though, that comes up to 37C. That is insane hot. Whatever cable you use, you'll want to make sure it's rated for extreme temperatures.
 

Cerulean

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I would try some quality cat6, maybe even shielded.

Otherwise, you could use fibre. Personally I'd probably go the fibre route, just to isolate the tower from the equipment inside the house in case of a lightning strike.

The ethernet over coax looks interesting, that could maybe also work.

I'd be worried about the 100F though, that comes up to 37C. That is insane hot. Whatever cable you use, you'll want to make sure it's rated for extreme temperatures.
Could you recommend me to some Ethernet to Fiber adapters & fiber spools?

EDIT: I found another coaxial to Ethernet adapter at http://www.dual-comm.com/ethernet-over-coax-adapter.htm (DECA-100). Only concern are temperatures, would need to call Dual-Comm and ask.
 
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450

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100m is 328 feet. Not too different from 350 feet.

I think fiber would be the best option due to grounding issues as previously mentioned.
 

bds1904

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If you have power at the end of the driveway (lightpost or something) then I would reccomend a pair of mikrotik lite5 sxt's. Mounted 5 ft off the ground with los will allow 300mbit connection speeds. Rated for outdoor use too.

Hands down cheapest option and no digging.
 

Cerulean

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If you have power at the end of the driveway (lightpost or something) then I would reccomend a pair of mikrotik lite5 sxt's. Mounted 5 ft off the ground with los will allow 300mbit connection speeds.

Hands down cheapest option and no digging.
Link to product page: http://routerboard.com/RBSXT5nDr2

Product name: MicroTik SXT Lite5
Product code: RBSXT5nDr2
 

/usr/home

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If you have power at the end of the driveway (lightpost or something) then I would reccomend a pair of mikrotik lite5 sxt's. Mounted 5 ft off the ground with los will allow 300mbit connection speeds. Rated for outdoor use too.

Hands down cheapest option and no digging.

This. Either that or a pair Ubiquiti Nanostations. (I prefer UBNT over MikroTik for Wireless but it's just personal. Either will work great.

You could also use a POE mid span extender. Basically it sits in the middle of the run and is powered via POE and extends the run by another 300ft. They also can pass thru POE if the end device needs it.

Something like this: http://www.interlogix.com/_/assets/library/203_3496_68666_d_ifs_trans_ds_poe_201ex.pdf

Many WISP guys use similar products.
 
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bloodypulp

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you don't have to place the modem next to the dish.
a 350' coaxial run from the dish to your modem(in your house) should be okay. don't need to run ethernet directly to the dish.
only hassle is trenching and laying conduit on your property.
 

Red Squirrel

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Could you recommend me to some Ethernet to Fiber adapters & fiber spools?

EDIT: I found another coaxial to Ethernet adapter at http://www.dual-comm.com/ethernet-over-coax-adapter.htm (DECA-100). Only concern are temperatures, would need to call Dual-Comm and ask.

TBH I only seen them used, never installed them myself, so can't make specific recommendations. For fibre, you'd probably want to call a cable installation company since the splicer tools for that arn't cheap so best to just get it done by a pro which will have the tools and experience to put ends on it. Idealy I'd have him put plugs then you just use fibre patch cables at both ends. Lay the conduit yourself, put a pull string and then let the installer do the rest.
 
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You can extend cat5 by doing Poe setup. By using this:http://veracityglobal.com/products/ethernet-and-poe-devices
 
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+Eric

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You need these: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16833156006

Guy in the reviews says his are outside and have been as high as 107 degrees. They're rated for 0 to 40C. You'll have to get power there, but how was the ISP's receiver going to be powered anyhow?? Considering they're only 45 bucks and the (albeit limited) reviews are good, I'd roll the dice and start here. Put them in a white weather proof box and hope they last a few summers....
 

Nicklebon

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you don't have to place the modem next to the dish.
a 350' coaxial run from the dish to your modem(in your house) should be okay. don't need to run ethernet directly to the dish.
only hassle is trenching and laying conduit on your property.

DING DING DING ^^^^^^^^^ WINNER!
 

/usr/home

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DING DING DING ^^^^^^^^^ WINNER!

It sounds like it's a UBNT or MikroTik or Motorola type fixed wireless CPE and not a dish or antennae. Most CPEs for WISPs don't have traditional detachable antennae so this isn't doable.
 

Red Squirrel

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You could put a switch in the middle.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00322Q2UK/

A small enclosure would be neaded and I would fuse it.

However as others have suggested coax could be run and/or fiber.

Actually this might be the cheapest solution. Put a small post with a weather tight enclosure on it, throw in a little 12V switch running off a battery that is hooked up to a 13.5v power supply and make sure it's decently ventilated. You'll have to run power to it though but should not be that bad. No matter what you have to run power as those fibre converters also need power. If you do a P2P link that needs power too. Come to think of it, what is powering the dish? There must be some kind of power already there?
 
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Actually this might be the cheapest solution. Put a small post with a weather tight enclosure on it, throw in a little 12V switch running off a battery that is hooked up to a 13.5v power supply and make sure it's decently ventilated. You'll have to run power to it though but should not be that bad. No matter what you have to run power as those fibre converters also need power. If you do a P2P link that needs power too. Come to think of it, what is powering the dish? There must be some kind of power already there?

You power that switch via POE. I have a few in use at work in a temporary offices. They are only 10/100, but for this application, who cares?
 

JPF_

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Most copper based will get you 300-400ft with very little attenuation.

cat6e can seriously go farther than 400ft.


RG6 with copper clad steel will go 420ft (worked at Comcast and ran my own drop) modem still worked.

You should be good using anything you want.
 

+Eric

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Like someone else said, if you have power out near there, the best solution is probably point to point wireless if there are no trees/vegetation in the way.

If anyone thinks that remotely mounting the antenna and "modem" is acceptable, they're just mistaken. At 350+ feet, the attenuation on that coax at microwave frequencies will be tremendous, and that's even if you use expensive and hard to work with coax. Those people are also failing to account for the signal strength the antenna will be getting. It could be marginal, and I suspect it is if the tech wanted to install it 350+ ft from the house, and any attenuation in the coax would likely be utterly unacceptable. Even with good coax, at those frequencies you're looking at possibly several db of loss..... To get the loss under even say 2db at 350+ft would probably be quite expensive. All of course all of this is considering the antenna is not integrated into the "modem."

If there is no power out there at all, and you're going to have to run it to power the ISP's equipment, then run the conduit, and run fiber in it.

No way I'd be rolling the dice with ethernet.....
 

Nate7311

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If it's parents, I'd doubt that they'll be doing much else besides basic Web and Email, MAYBE a bit of youtube if someone sends them a link, right? Why jump through hoops with another $100-$200 in customer-owned equipment, a boatload of time and 3 extra points of failure. Unless the microwave broadband is DIRT cheap, just go Cell-based or, as much as I hate to advocate it, Exede or Hughes Satellite and call it done.
 

Mackintire

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So here's what I would do.

Buy (2) Ethernet to fiber media converters that are industrial grade (that supports wider voltages and temperature ranges like this: http://www.bb-elec.com/Products/Eth...verters/Elinx-EIS-Series-Media-Converter.aspx

Connect the inside to the remote location via fiber line buried in cheap electrical PVC conduit.

Buy a 45 watt solar power kit with charger and sealed Gel cell battery.

Place the media converter and various electronic in a white weather tight box in the ground, along with a 12V gel cell sealed battery.

You should get 24 hours of use for every 50Ah of capacity your battery has without charging. I'd get at least an 100Ah battery.

This is NOT cheap, you're probably looking at $750 in materials when its all said and done.

Alternately... just use the media converters above or something similar and run AC power out 350'.

Personally I could run AC that distance for the same cost as the remote power source.

PVC electrical conduit, 14g sooj wire, a circuit breaker, sealed weathertight box, GFIC duplex, spray foam, sealent, small pressure treated 4x4 a couple of anchors, and a trencher (rental)

If I had line of sight and already had AC at the end of the driveway, I'd use (2) Ubiquiti nanostations and call it a day.
 

DeChache

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For that much distance your not much over spec. I think I would just start with good in ground shielded Cat5e or 6 and see what happens. If the speeds are only 1mbps/386kbps it should work just fine. It wont run gig but even a 10 meg link would be over kill.
 

Cerulean

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If it's parents, I'd doubt that they'll be doing much else besides basic Web and Email, MAYBE a bit of youtube if someone sends them a link, right? Why jump through hoops with another $100-$200 in customer-owned equipment, a boatload of time and 3 extra points of failure. Unless the microwave broadband is DIRT cheap, just go Cell-based or, as much as I hate to advocate it, Exede or Hughes Satellite and call it done.
They're on HughesNet and they absolutely hate it. They really need to have their frequent visitors stop torrenting and raping the bandwidth quotas non-stop, but whatever. They're switching and going away from satellite because they need something without bandwidth quotas, which neither HughesNet or WildBlue provide. Dialup isn't an option (those are not unlimited, are unreliable, and have poor speeds). Cell is not an option because cell phones are useless in the area despite having a nice handful of some of the world's tallest antenna towers (approximately 1250 feet high), plus it would be horridly expensive + worse than satellite with the overage charges for exceeding quotas.
 

gangolfus

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They really need to have their frequent visitors stop torrenting and raping the bandwidth quotas non-stop, but whatever. They're switching and going away from satellite because they need something without bandwidth quotas, which neither HughesNet or WildBlue provide.

How about just implementing some QOS and keeping the HugesNet? Is the problem that they need more bandwidth, or is the problem that the bandwidth they have is being abused?
 

Cerulean

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How about just implementing some QOS and keeping the HugesNet? Is the problem that they need more bandwidth, or is the problem that the bandwidth they have is being abused?
Both abused and the desire to reduce monthly costs.
 

Nicklebon

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It sounds like it's a UBNT or MikroTik or Motorola type fixed wireless CPE and not a dish or antennae. Most CPEs for WISPs don't have traditional detachable antennae so this isn't doable.

I see nothing in this thread from the OP to indicate this is the case. Even if it is the case it a trivial matter to disconnect the antenna leads and make the antenna detachable. It may not be pretty in the end but it is certainly nothing that someone with access to soldering iron and even a modicum of skill could not accomplish.

I do have to ask the OP one question.

What does the WISP have to say about this? In their line of work I'm certain this isn't the first time they've seen this situation arise.
 

Cerulean

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What does the WISP have to say about this? In their line of work I'm certain this isn't the first time they've seen this situation arise.
http://totalhighspeed.com/faq.php

...
Total Highspeed can reach users as far as 15 miles away and possibly even further from our access points!
...

What about security?
Communications between your location and our access point locations are encrypted using DES “Data Encryption Standard”. This is the same security used by federal agencies in their wireless networks. This is not an 802.11 Wi-Fi network.

Does this use a satellite receiver?
Total Highspeed service is not to be confused with satellite access, like HUGHES (www.hughes.com) or lumped in with cellular phone services which are slow and require handheld devices. Total Highspeed Internet access does not suffer from the latency or weather fade that plagues satellite based Internet delivery. Total Highspeed service is not effected by rain, fog or snow.

Fixed wireless does not require satellite systems, a cable connection, or even local phone service. By eliminating many of the expenses associated with other high-speed services, we are able to pass much of the savings on to our customers to provide an affordable yet high performance service for business and demanding residential users.

Total Highspeed uses a small microwave antenna that is attached to a radio at the customer premises. The Customer Premise Equipment (CPE) is pointed back to one of our access points. Even during rain or snow, your Total Highspeed connection will be strong, reliable, and out of reach of falling limbs, outages, and other effects prone to wired networks.

...

Special Installation Circumstances
A typical installation is one that can be completed within 2 hours. Time over 2 hours is billed at $75.00 an hour when we encounter problems that are not a result of our equipment.

http://totalhighspeed.com/residential.php

Installation fee
  • A one time installation fee of $199.00 applies to all plans.
  • Installation includes everything needed to start surfing the internet!
  • If you choose the Total Highspeed Wireless Access Point, there is an additional install fee of $25.00

One of my family members told me they will inquire the technician about what they can do to ensure connectivity to the house + about the location of the modem.
 
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The antenna provided by Total Highspeed is a Cambium Antenna provided by Motorola. The antenna is powered by POE (Powered over ethernet) Best solution in my opinion would be to run ethernet from the antenna to a well house (Which is 100~150 feet away from the antenna location, midway between the house and the driveway end) Have a swith powered by the wells internal power (120v line is also installed in the well house) and continue the ethernet to the house.
Sources: (1)Just got off the phone with Total Highspeed. (2)Am one of the residence the OP is talking about, and am the one who is conducting business with Total Highspeed. We shall find out the outcome when the tech guy comes out on Saturday, April 26.
 

/usr/home

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I see nothing in this thread from the OP to indicate this is the case. Even if it is the case it a trivial matter to disconnect the antenna leads and make the antenna detachable. It may not be pretty in the end but it is certainly nothing that someone with access to soldering iron and even a modicum of skill could not accomplish.

I do have to ask the OP one question.

What does the WISP have to say about this? In their line of work I'm certain this isn't the first time they've seen this situation arise.

Many CPEs have the antennae built in and even if they don't, I'd highly recommend not running a 350ft antennae lead. Especially if you don't have experience with RF.

OP, like I said, look into a midspan POE extender like this. https://www.anixter.com/north-america/us/en/product-detail.POE201-EX-INTERLOGIX.463594.html (This is assuming they are standard 48V or even 24V)

No other remote power needed. Just make sure the power draw on the CPE and voltage are compatible.
 
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Grentz

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I bet you would be fine running cat5.

It can run over spec, especially with the speeds you are dealing with. The biggest issue will be the PoE, but that likely would still work too.

If you want to try it, grab a spool of cat5 and terminate the ends in the box,
 

Parja

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Wow, that's about as maximum ghetto as I could have possibly imagined.
 

DeChache

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Do we win any food stamps ? :D

I saw zip ties and no ducktape

The cable wasn't joined in any way between the two points (no splices barrels or anything else)

and I saw Silicon caulk where it entered the house.


So I'm gonna go no. No food stamps.

That being said I would be burring that cable or putting it in some kind of a conduit.
 
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