After reading about the guy who stabbed the other guy over a virtual sword, it got me to thinking (a dangerous thing). With all of the online games that are popular (and have been for some time) does anyone think there will be a time when your virtual property will be covered under the law? I think most of the agreements you "sign" when you get a subscription basically say that everything in the game is the property of the developer/publisher.
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Making Virtual Property "Real"
- Thread starter Pr0nGS
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Quicksilver
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No, because said property is never "paid for" by you in the first place. Sure you can take time spent into account, but how do you write a law protecting "property" when there is no ascertainable value attributed to it.
How do you detirmine the difference between petty theft and grand larceny?
And the biggest issue is: Imagine actually going to jail because you stole a bunch of things that aren't real. Imagine that person's family and friends when they find out their relative is going to prison or paying fines for taking somthing of no real value.
How do you detirmine the difference between petty theft and grand larceny?
And the biggest issue is: Imagine actually going to jail because you stole a bunch of things that aren't real. Imagine that person's family and friends when they find out their relative is going to prison or paying fines for taking somthing of no real value.
Mazgazine1
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Quicksilver, I think thats a little off.
Depending on what the "property" is, I can under stand it..
A website IS technically virtual.. but if hacking it results in millions of dollars of lost revenue, you can sue the hacker.
An item in a game is MUCH different, it says RIGHT IN THE WOW USER AGREEMENT everything , and I mean EVERYTHING, is owned by blizzard.
THats why they have been craking down on ebay soo badly.
Does your character owning the sword gain you real money or gold/credits in the game? if its not real money it doesn't matter.
anyone, buying anything like that for money is juuust stupid...because your too lazy to get it yourself.
Depending on what the "property" is, I can under stand it..
A website IS technically virtual.. but if hacking it results in millions of dollars of lost revenue, you can sue the hacker.
An item in a game is MUCH different, it says RIGHT IN THE WOW USER AGREEMENT everything , and I mean EVERYTHING, is owned by blizzard.
THats why they have been craking down on ebay soo badly.
Does your character owning the sword gain you real money or gold/credits in the game? if its not real money it doesn't matter.
anyone, buying anything like that for money is juuust stupid...because your too lazy to get it yourself.
Placing a real world value on an item is kinda tricky. You are putting your real world money into the game as an investment (You're monthly bill, prepaid card, etc.) and nurturing it to earn more. In the case of the standard monthly, your money is converted into time you can spend online, which is then converted into you investing in said time and gathering items you can then turn into virtual money. It's not a direct IRLMoney->VirtualMoney but the end result is the same, it just takes a few more steps. You work hard for your Virtual money, just like you would in real life, so i don't see how its value can be any less.
You're doing the same in an online investment or stockmarket. You start with a bit of money, send it to the bank to be converted into virtual credits, then start trading online to earn more. Millions of dollars are moved through the wire without the owners ever physically seeing a nickel of it. The only difference is that you can legally convert the virtual money back into IRL money.
There's a game that does IRLMoney->Virtual money directly tho. Gunbound. The higher uber powerful equips cannot be earned ingame and has to be bought with real money. Thus, you convert IRLMoney directly into a Virtual asset. Say you pay $10.00 for a virtual helmet. Those dozen or so bytes in the database now represent a $10.00 asset (like the bytes in a banks computer saying you own $500.00 in stocks). If someone were to hack and steal that helmet (someone breaks into the banks database or steals your credit card number), doesn't that count as theft?
You're doing the same in an online investment or stockmarket. You start with a bit of money, send it to the bank to be converted into virtual credits, then start trading online to earn more. Millions of dollars are moved through the wire without the owners ever physically seeing a nickel of it. The only difference is that you can legally convert the virtual money back into IRL money.
There's a game that does IRLMoney->Virtual money directly tho. Gunbound. The higher uber powerful equips cannot be earned ingame and has to be bought with real money. Thus, you convert IRLMoney directly into a Virtual asset. Say you pay $10.00 for a virtual helmet. Those dozen or so bytes in the database now represent a $10.00 asset (like the bytes in a banks computer saying you own $500.00 in stocks). If someone were to hack and steal that helmet (someone breaks into the banks database or steals your credit card number), doesn't that count as theft?
Saloma Teale
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You will never be able to claim "Property" in a virtual world such as EQ2, WoW, Lineage, etc. The reason for this is because all content extending within the game is owned, developed, and maintained by the creating companies. That means that you cannot sue someone for taking your sword. You can gripe to a GM or CSR about it, but you cannot sue. You have no domain over the items since they are basically on loan to you from the game developers.
A paper on virtual crime.
http://www.nyls.edu/pdfs/v49n1p293-316.pdf
I'll admit tho, it's a boring read. I fell asleep after page four
Some other articles
http://terranova.blogs.com/terra_nova/2004/08/virtual_crime.html
http://www.gamespot.com/all/news/news_6101604.html
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6870901/>
There was an article i read before about a guy who took his case to court demanding that his ingame items, which were stolen when he got hacked, be returned. And he won. If anybody here can still remember that one, could you give the link please? Thanks.
http://www.nyls.edu/pdfs/v49n1p293-316.pdf
I'll admit tho, it's a boring read. I fell asleep after page four
Some other articles
http://terranova.blogs.com/terra_nova/2004/08/virtual_crime.html
http://www.gamespot.com/all/news/news_6101604.html
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6870901/>
There was an article i read before about a guy who took his case to court demanding that his ingame items, which were stolen when he got hacked, be returned. And he won. If anybody here can still remember that one, could you give the link please? Thanks.
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I think that sums it up. When you play these online games, you are subscribing/paying for that privilege (to play the game) and not for whatever level you get to in the game. That's simply a side issue.Quicksilver said:
The fact that a person holds great value to whatever they've gained in a mmorpg is irrelevant.
It's like saying you own a piece of an arcade machine just because you made it into the high score table.
Sly, I remember to what you refer, but I can't remember the details. Well lets take this a step further, off the PC and onto Xbox LIVE! If some of the speculation I am reading is true, MS will allow you to buy add-ons and items through the Xbox 2...at least thats what they are envisioning. In that case, I think a case could be made, if i spent real world cash on a virtual item...it should be mine. If it gets hacked or stolen, I am out some sort of tangible value.
As for getting scammed or shafted out of an ub3r sword in WoW, EQ2, DAoC etc...I think you have a right to be pissed, killing someone over it is just a liiiiiiiiiiiiiitle extreme. But I understand! (a little Chris Rock ripoff there)
As for getting scammed or shafted out of an ub3r sword in WoW, EQ2, DAoC etc...I think you have a right to be pissed, killing someone over it is just a liiiiiiiiiiiiiitle extreme. But I understand! (a little Chris Rock ripoff there)
Quicksilver said:
Shrug, things that are 'virtual' have eBay value. It's just like when I used to trade playing cards. To somebody who didn't know or appreciate the game, they were just pieces of cardboard, but to us kids they were worth quite a bit.
Same applies for online stuff. I know friends who sold their 'time spent' leveling up characters in City of Heroes as well as their 'time spent' acquiring goods in games. They got quite a bit of money for it.
Sly said:
I don't remember the exact case you mention, but there was a recent case in Taiwan with a man and his ex-girlfriend. Apparently they met in an MMORPG and broke up soon afterwards in real life. She hacked and deleted his characters in this game. The cops literally arrested and handcuffed her for doing this.
IIRC, she was guilty in Taiwan. I think it would've played out differently if it were to happen in the US though...
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Not legally, only in perceived value. If two people agree something has value, then they can trade over it.Charles said:
Know that money (a trading medium) is only worth what it is because everybody agrees it does. If, for no reason, everybody suddenly decided a dollar is worthless, then it would be.
There is "ownership" of virtual items, because time and money have been spent in their creation (yours and/or the developers).
If the EULA states that all "ownership" remains with the developer then you are a basically renting the items on an open ended basis.
However, if there's no such contract that makes a specification it does get less clear (in just about any non-commie country).
As I said, time and effort and money have been spent to acquire the item.
It's easy to dismiss the topic because its "Virtual", but if you think about it, isn't Intellectual Property "Virtual" and you can own ideas by virtue of patents.
So items won in a game (It is sort of like gambling isn't it, only the prize is fun, fun and virtual swords) don't actually fall far outside the current way law works anyway.
And lest we forget, money is pretty much virtual as well, since the gold standard was abandoned, so it's "ownership" isn't that straightforward either.
If the EULA states that all "ownership" remains with the developer then you are a basically renting the items on an open ended basis.
However, if there's no such contract that makes a specification it does get less clear (in just about any non-commie country).
As I said, time and effort and money have been spent to acquire the item.
It's easy to dismiss the topic because its "Virtual", but if you think about it, isn't Intellectual Property "Virtual" and you can own ideas by virtue of patents.
So items won in a game (It is sort of like gambling isn't it, only the prize is fun, fun and virtual swords) don't actually fall far outside the current way law works anyway.
And lest we forget, money is pretty much virtual as well, since the gold standard was abandoned, so it's "ownership" isn't that straightforward either.
Quicksilver
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Charles said:
Ok, I'll give you points for the most coherent argument in favor of online items having real cash value. And, I'll say that I agree with the principal of what you're saying. That being regardless of how anybody feels about it, these things DO have real world value. Trading cards, vinyl records, a badass virtual sword, the top spot on a popular arcade game, a leadership position in a multiplayer army, or a warehouse full of online artifacts gleaned from countless hours of laboring at the mouse. All these things, regardless of my inability to understand so, have real world cash value.
The problem I have with this whole idea of real world penalties for THEFT of online role-playing game items (Items that take time and have a certain degree of chance in acquiring) is this: Who determines the real world value of the goods? Who gets to put down the dollar sign followed by a numerical figure that quantifies the degree of damage done? Is the destruction of your online avatar a loss of...... what? $1,000? $2,000?
What if somebody in a hospital played 24/7 and amassed a huge army of whatevers.... and that was stolen. Could he argue that all of that could have been converted into income and now he is entitled to hundreds of thousands of dollars of "lost wages"?
I know the above example is a little extreme, but you must consider things of this nature when you go about writing laws defining what the crimes are and what the punishments should be. Should the perp be fined, or should he be forced to work online gathering items of comparable value to be given to the plaintiff? Should there be any penalty to the perpetrator at all? Wouldnt it just be simpler to have the game makers return all the stuff lost? Of course, a policy like that opens up all kinds of avenues for abuse.
Who should make the rules? The developer? The publisher? The government? Is this a state or fedral issue? What if the developer or publisher with their game servers is overseas?
The point Im trying to make is that this is a really complicated issue, and no legislature in any jurisdiction in any country is going to put laws of this nature on the books. It's too irrelevant for the amount of time it would take to legislate.
Saloma Teale
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It is not complicated. WoW, EQ2, Lineage, DAOC, CoH... all of them have an EULA that specifically states that characters and game content are specifically enforced, updated, maintained, and in the end owned by the Developing companies. This means that even though you are playing your character and leveling him up, getting uber lootz!, or having an ingame marriage, it still has to coincide with, and not fracture the EULA.
As a point... the girl in Taiwan that was arrested for deleting her ex boyfriend's characters was not arrested for deleting HIS property. She was arrested for knowingly breaking the EULA of the game. To log into the account of another player, and knowingly destroy, change, or disrupt what the account entails is an infraction against said EULA.
The same EULA determines that game content, including characters and items cannot be resold for a cash profit. This means that all the people who sold Jedi from SWG were breaking the EULA, and by law could be arrested and prosecuted. I know this for a fact because it happened to a friend of mine. She was caught selling her Jedi on EBAY, and SOE found out about it. I dont know the details, but I know that she was contacted by an attorney working for SOE, and was given notice she would be sued for her actions. The account, character, items, and information pertaining to her online "Life" were frozen and then deleted.
You have to realize this is only data. There is no transferance to the real world for MOST games that are currently being played. Most of the companies have EULAs to make sure that their product can ONLY be profited upon by them only, and the user is made into a renter of content. Selling Cards, tires, stuffed animals, car parts, food processors, blah blah blah, on ebay is a totally different animal. There is no ownership from the company that manufactured the item for the consumer. Once the consumer takes ownership of the product, it is theirs to do with as they wish. Think of the online games like this... The manufacturer, or developer in this case has not let their product leave their hands. They are allowing you the consumer to borrow their material at a rented price. Much the same as renting a car. You dont own it, but you're allowed to drive it while you have it rented. You're not allowed to sell it, because it is not yours.
See... virtual is governed ALOT by these EULA agreements. If there WERENT any EULAs, then I can understand and agree that items from games could be sold for a profit, by us the consumer. As of now however, we cannot. The Developers own everything, and we are but the leasee.
As a point... the girl in Taiwan that was arrested for deleting her ex boyfriend's characters was not arrested for deleting HIS property. She was arrested for knowingly breaking the EULA of the game. To log into the account of another player, and knowingly destroy, change, or disrupt what the account entails is an infraction against said EULA.
The same EULA determines that game content, including characters and items cannot be resold for a cash profit. This means that all the people who sold Jedi from SWG were breaking the EULA, and by law could be arrested and prosecuted. I know this for a fact because it happened to a friend of mine. She was caught selling her Jedi on EBAY, and SOE found out about it. I dont know the details, but I know that she was contacted by an attorney working for SOE, and was given notice she would be sued for her actions. The account, character, items, and information pertaining to her online "Life" were frozen and then deleted.
You have to realize this is only data. There is no transferance to the real world for MOST games that are currently being played. Most of the companies have EULAs to make sure that their product can ONLY be profited upon by them only, and the user is made into a renter of content. Selling Cards, tires, stuffed animals, car parts, food processors, blah blah blah, on ebay is a totally different animal. There is no ownership from the company that manufactured the item for the consumer. Once the consumer takes ownership of the product, it is theirs to do with as they wish. Think of the online games like this... The manufacturer, or developer in this case has not let their product leave their hands. They are allowing you the consumer to borrow their material at a rented price. Much the same as renting a car. You dont own it, but you're allowed to drive it while you have it rented. You're not allowed to sell it, because it is not yours.
See... virtual is governed ALOT by these EULA agreements. If there WERENT any EULAs, then I can understand and agree that items from games could be sold for a profit, by us the consumer. As of now however, we cannot. The Developers own everything, and we are but the leasee.
bonkrowave
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I have a hard time believing that a company would actually sue a customer. They may make threats and have lawyers (read:scum) threaten people.
But what MMORPG developer wants all the bad press that would be caused by suing a customer.
But what MMORPG developer wants all the bad press that would be caused by suing a customer.
Saloma Teale
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Sueing does not necessarily mean millions of dollars though if that's what you mean by "believing". She was sued for $8,000 because she was trying to make a profit upon something she did not own, and it directly went against the SOE EULA. This is a similar suit to was the RIAA is doing. Sueing may not be the proper word... Fining may be closer to the right thing. In any case, she was hit with a monitary value which had to be settled upon.
bonkrowave
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Saloma Teale said:
Fining is a better word for it I think. Suing usually envolves damages ... and I dont think a customer could damage a MMORPG company. Now if it was a fine for breaking a copyright ... then ya it sounds a little more reasonable.
Saloma Teale
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Sorry... I know a little bit of legal, but I'm really bad with terming.
bonkrowave
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No need to be sorry, I just wanted to make it clear, anything outside my native neanderthal logic sometimes confuses me.
Saloma Teale
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Lol. Neanderthalic?
/looks at bonk dragging his club...
Hmm.. you must be from Canada =)
(sorry... that was so shameless. i'm slapping myself right now)
/looks at bonk dragging his club...
Hmm.. you must be from Canada =)
(sorry... that was so shameless. i'm slapping myself right now)
bonkrowave
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Saloma Teale said:
Thats right .... all you Homoerectus's/Homoerecti (SP?) thought you killed us off eh?
Well we sure fooled you ... we just moved to Canada.
Saloma Teale
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LOL!!
touche' =)
touche' =)
Actually a women was arrested in japan for logging into her ex-boyfriends MMO account and deleting his key items.
http://techdirt.com/articles/20050120/105218_F.shtml
http://techdirt.com/articles/20050120/105218_F.shtml
bonkrowave
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statious said:
This was because she violated the EULA. The EULA specifically stated that logging into someone elses account and deleting their information was against the EULA.
Deja Vu
Ohhh oh ... they must have changed something in the Matrix.
Saloma Teale
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Exactly bonk. To go into someone elses account and knowingly alter, delete, modify, etc to your own ends is an offense against the EULA. She was prosecuted to that end. Even if the gaming company does not pick up on this infraction, the boyfriend had the right to enforce the EULA to his own end. This is how the woman was arrested. He used the EULA help himself.
So really... the EULA CAN help us as well as hinder us. Personally, I have no issues with leaving game content in the hands of the developers.
So really... the EULA CAN help us as well as hinder us. Personally, I have no issues with leaving game content in the hands of the developers.
Saloma Teale said:
The only problem with all the statements like the above one is that they only apply to any given game where the EULA says you don't own anything. If there were ever a game that specifically stated you DO own your character and equipment then such arguments would be invalidated.
So my advice is to assume such a game will some day exist, if it doesn't already, and so discuss this situation in light of the potential for such a game to come out.
BTW, there may already be a game like that. I have never read any of the EULA's for games where you actually pay money to the developers for specific in-game items (and in one of those games you can trade in-game money directly for real-life money as a basic game mechanic), but they could very well state that you own your equipment and cash.... Since the dev's are themselves putting a RL value on something and charging you for it, or paying you for it, it seems to me it's property just like anything else is.
bonkrowave said:
Actually even if the EULA didn't say anything about that it would be illegal... And it's illegal in the U.S. right now as well. You may not be able to get it prosecuted, but you could win a civil suit.
Why is it illegal you ask? Because an MMORPG is a service, and in the US people can be prosecuted for interfering with a service another person has paid for. So legally isn't really no different than someone intentionally blocking your phone service, canceling your cable account, or using your internet service to access the web without your consent. All those things are violations of the law because you are paying money for the use of the service and someone else is imparing your ability to do so.
The big problem with allowing virtual property to be real property having an accepted value outside of the game world is that it places an unreasonable burden on the people running the game. What happens in the case of a server crash/rollback? What happens when a game finally shuts down? How about game mechanics modifications resulting in items/characters being nerfed?
A really good recent example involves EQ2 - a recent patch made it so that all items must be 'attuned' (previously only certain special items were attunable) in order to function properly. Once an item is attuned to one character, it can't be reattuned to another char. This essentially makes all used weapons/armor valueless on the resale market.
If in-game items were 'property', I could see a major class-action suit coming out of this.
Personally, I like the attitude taken towards virtual worlds in Pat Cadigan's book "Tea From an Empty Cup". In game, nothing is real - it's all roleplaying. You can admit to crimes & it's inadmissable. You can make business deals but contracts in game are unenforcable IRL. It's pretty straightforward - the game world is self-contained and separate from this one. Just make sure to pay your bill & not tell people your real name.
A really good recent example involves EQ2 - a recent patch made it so that all items must be 'attuned' (previously only certain special items were attunable) in order to function properly. Once an item is attuned to one character, it can't be reattuned to another char. This essentially makes all used weapons/armor valueless on the resale market.
If in-game items were 'property', I could see a major class-action suit coming out of this.
Personally, I like the attitude taken towards virtual worlds in Pat Cadigan's book "Tea From an Empty Cup". In game, nothing is real - it's all roleplaying. You can admit to crimes & it's inadmissable. You can make business deals but contracts in game are unenforcable IRL. It's pretty straightforward - the game world is self-contained and separate from this one. Just make sure to pay your bill & not tell people your real name.