Looking for Keyboard and Mouse (Low finger stress)

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egroeg555

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I get joint pain in my fingers from using the keyboard and mouse, and I'm looking for reccomendations for what keyboards and or mice cause the least amount of stress to fingers to press the buttons and keys.

I've used a few different mice such as the G500 and Deathadder, and I use the Logitech Illuminated Keyboard, which I think is decent, though the keys do not press as well as when I first got it several years ago. My most intense use is gaming, including high click/key press games like SC2 and Diablo 3.

From what I've been reading I think a mechanical keyboard with Cherry Red or Brown switches might work well, and when I get a chance I'm going to make the drive to the nearest Microcenter to see what they have to try out.

What do you suggest?
 
That may be a bit of a tough choice for mice since there are not many ergonomic mice designed to relieve stress aside from vertical mice, but many of those don't have the best performance. I think the most recommended vertical mouse is made by Anker though.

Cherry MX may be one of the better bets for keyboards with your concerns in mind. I would use an o-ring mod on them as well, using soft bands (orthodontic bands work great and are very cheap) for further stress relief when spamming keys. You may also want to consider going 10-keyless to help with posture and further relieve stress.

I would use the trip to microcenter to test out the different MX switch types rather than buying a keyboard unless they carry CMStorm products (aside from the Quickfire Pro) which are normally awesome budget boards, but you're not likely to find any other models in there that are seriously worth considering.
 
Thanks for the feedback, I made it to Microcenter this evening, and I think the Cherry Red switches are the way to go for me. The o-ring mod sounds like a good idea. I didn't know this was an option.

As for 10-keyless, I'm not sure if I can give up the number pad, and I'm not sure if that would help the ergonomics for finger pain. At any rate, now I'm sorting through the different options of mechanical keyboards...

Any suggestions for a board with red switches that would work well with the o-rings?

As for mice, I'm thinking I might just need a mouse with a lighter click. I tried a G400s at the store, and the click seemed pretty good. Anyone have a list of mice with the light click buttons?
 
The o-ring mod will work with any board really, you just remove the caps (carefully mind you, haha) and push the ring down the stem inside the keycap; stock keycaps should only need one 2~4mm (thickness) band pushed to the cross bar. From my personal experience, orthodontic bands are the best cheap option (and very soft/squishy) since cheaper o-rings tend to deteriorate rather quickly.

As far as keyboards go, I often recommend; Filco, Leopold, Ducky, CMStorm (Quickfire Rapid or XT), Rosewill (RK9000 series), Keycool (Cherry MX versions, new Kailh switches are still untested for quality). Filco and Leopold are often going to be more expensive for very little quality gain if you're not into modding and there are also other boards out there worth considering, this is just a quick list of manufacturers/boards with good to decent quality and standard key layouts. Should you consider aftermarket caps, a standard layout helps greatly; stock caps on most boards are very thin and easily transfer shock compared to thicker materials from my experience.
 
I'm going back and forth on tenkeyless, as compact would be nice. Though I think I'd want a separate number pad if I went that route.

Also, what makes the Filco and Leopold keyboards better for modding?

For aftermarket caps, do you mean like from WASD? I see they also sell their own keyboards also, though stock is a bit limited there right now as with many places.
 
egroeg555 said:
I'm going back and forth on tenkeyless, as compact would be nice. Though I think I'd want a separate number pad if I went that route.

Also, what makes the Filco and Leopold keyboards better for modding?

For aftermarket caps, do you mean like from WASD? I see they also sell their own keyboards also, though stock is a bit limited there right now as with many places.
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You can purchase separate 10-key pads, just make sure that the coding uses the scan codes for the 10-key keys and not the number row, lol. I think Leopold actually blundered with this, but their newer versions uses the correct codes.

It seems I was wrong about the Leopold; it's Filco and newer Duckys that use a dual-layered PCB, this makes them a little more resilient when it comes to (de)soldering components as mistakes made with using too much heat are slightly more forgiving (but not as mush as many people seem to think).

WASDkeyboards still uses thin caps, iirc. Original Cherry Corp. keycaps (molds now owned by GMK) are quite thick, BSP are close to similar in thickness to GMK, IMSTO are quite thick as well, Ducky makes some thick PBT sets (make sure they're labeled as thick PBT), I think WYSE and Vortex have a thick line too. I think Signature Plastics keys may be a tad thicker than most stock key caps as well, but this is only going off of how my current DSA set feels compared to stock Ducky backlit, CMStorm QFR and PLUM's POM.
 
Okay, this is all making more sense now. I certainly have no plans for modding that involves desoldering. So I'm thinking Quickfire Rapid with red switches, thick PBT keys, and o-rings.

Still sorting through keycap options though. It is not terribly obvious where to get certain things. I have seen some nice pictures of nice keysets like here http://imgur.com/a/jguAJ. Though, not entirely sure where to get.

Also, I see some things listed as PBT but no brand or picture to show thickness? Such as here: http://www.vendio.com/stores/E-spor...s/37-pbt-color-side-printed-key-/lid=37058179
 
I recommend a max keyboard with cherry mx browns. I have mild carpal tunnel and the browns with the O- rings are a great solution for my wrists.
 
egroeg555 said:
Okay, this is all making more sense now. I certainly have no plans for modding that involves desoldering. So I'm thinking Quickfire Rapid with red switches, thick PBT keys, and o-rings.

Still sorting through keycap options though. It is not terribly obvious where to get certain things. I have seen some nice pictures of nice keysets like here http://imgur.com/a/jguAJ. Though, not entirely sure where to get.

Also, I see some things listed as PBT but no brand or picture to show thickness? Such as here: http://www.vendio.com/stores/E-spor...s/37-pbt-color-side-printed-key-/lid=37058179
Click to expand...

You may want to take a look at Ducky's G2Pro series as well, they offer stock options with thick PBT caps. Overall cost should be similar to a QFR with good aftermarket caps; I'd expect to pay over $75 (USD) for a good set of new thick PBT caps, though you may be able to find incomplete second-hand Cherry or other sets sets of thick ABS or POM for very cheap (I prefer POM personally, but I love Signature Plastics DSA profile keys). The easiest place to find these things would be over at Geekhack.org's (US based) Marketplace section or at Deskthority.net (EU based).

I'm actually sure Signature Plastics still has alpha sets of Cherry POM caps still - here ya go.
 
Skull_Angel said:
You may want to take a look at Ducky's G2Pro series as well, they offer stock options with thick PBT caps. Overall cost should be similar to a QFR with good aftermarket caps; I'd expect to pay over $75 (USD) for a good set of new thick PBT caps, though you may be able to find incomplete second-hand Cherry or other sets sets of thick ABS or POM for very cheap (I prefer POM personally, but I love Signature Plastics DSA profile keys). The easiest place to find these things would be over at Geekhack.org's (US based) Marketplace section or at Deskthority.net (EU based).

I'm actually sure Signature Plastics still has alpha sets of Cherry POM caps still - here ya go.
Click to expand...

Yeah I had been looking at the G2 Pro with PBT keys, though one of the reasons I was leaning toward the QFR is that it seems to be easy to get. I won't rule out the G2Pro though.

Also, it's good to know the price range of the quality keycaps. I have seen a large range of prices and was wondering if certain prices were really worth it. I'm not opposed to paying a bit more for something that I like and will work well for me.
 
egroeg555 said:
So many out of stock keysets out there...

I just ran across this: https://www.massdrop.com/buy/kbtalking-doubleshot-pbt-keycaps?s=KBtalKing Doubleshot PBT Keycaps

Specs:
Cost: $70
Brand- KBtalKing
104 keycaps for standard ANSI keyboards
PBT plastic
Double-shot legends
Compatible with all Cherry MX switches
OEM profile

Is this good quality? Worth the cost?
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Looks like a good deal; I'm not 100% on KBT's double-shot keycap quality, but I don't remember seeing any complaints.

edit; oh! double-shot PBT, yeah, I've heard of them. Some don't like the legends on current PBT double-shot because they're not as crisp as ABS alternatives, the methods haven't been perfected quite yet.
 
Skull_Angel said:
Looks like a good deal; I'm not 100% on KBT's double-shot keycap quality, but I don't remember seeing any complaints.

edit; oh! double-shot PBT, yeah, I've heard of them. Some don't like the legends on current PBT double-shot because they're not as crisp as ABS alternatives, the methods haven't been perfected quite yet.
Click to expand...

I suppose they are decent quality other than the legends? I can see in the pictures that the printing isn't super crisp. Though I thought the blue/white ones looked decent in terms of color. I've been getting a bit frustrated seeing keysets with color combinations that look good to me, but are all out of stock. I guess this is typical in a non-mainstream markets.

***Edit: Or perhaps I should hold of and get that Signature Plastics Cherry POM alpha numeric set you mentioned.
 
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Okay, so regarding the partial POM set. Would those key heights work with the standard QFR keys that aren't included in the POM set? Or what kind of keys would I be looking for to work well with those?

I'm somewhat inclined to get the POM set and the double-shot PBT set, because the POM isn't too expensive. Then use the keys I like better, and perhaps try to sell the leftovers.
 
Thread about the PBT double-shots. It seems like there is some QC issues regarding scratching caused by the manufacturing process.

There are a few reasons key sets go out of stock, mostly it's because the better sets only see small production runs through group buys; if you see any interest checks or group buys for something that interests you, it's normally a good idea to pick it up since the resale value can increase if it gains any popularity [if you later change your mind]. Much of the time if you post in the classified section on a dedicated site like Geekhack or Deskthority you'll find something you're looking for, just expect it to take a little time.

Keycap material and profile is pretty subjective, but the Cherry set from SP is one of the cheaper finds to start checking things out.


egroeg555 said:
Okay, so regarding the partial POM set. Would those key heights work with the standard QFR keys that aren't included in the POM set? Or what kind of keys would I be looking for to work well with those?

I'm somewhat inclined to get the POM set and the double-shot PBT set, because the POM isn't too expensive. Then use the keys I like better, and perhaps try to sell the leftovers.
Click to expand...

I found this that seems to describe different profiles pretty well.
 
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I really liked my cherry brown blackbird, nice light weight browns that still provide a slight tactical bump. They felt smoother and quieter than Tt Poseidon board I tried, it wasn't just the dobleshot keycaps on the bnlackbird either or the crappy stabilizers on the Poseidon, so I'm not sure what makes it so awesome.

I just purchased a Leopold FC660C now with electrostatic switches, but it will be a while before I can determine which keyboard is less stressful to my fingers. Right now I can say the cherry switches felt a lot lighter, but bottoming out on this board is more pleasant, and it sounds nicer when I type.
 
Thanks for the suggestions. I liked the feel of the red switches when I tried them out because it was the lightest press. I felt that I'd probably type faster on a heaver switch or one with the tactile bump, but I'm looking for the option that will be eaisest on my fingers, espically when spamming keys in a game.

I just ordered a quickfire rapid and that Cherry keyset. I'll save a little money this way, and I'll try to keep my eye out for groupbuys on keysets.

For O-rings, what size orthodontic bands work well? From what I'm reading it looks like 1/4" is right, but I wanted to double check.
 
egroeg555 said:
Thanks for the suggestions. I liked the feel of the red switches when I tried them out because it was the lightest press. I felt that I'd probably type faster on a heaver switch or one with the tactile bump, but I'm looking for the option that will be eaisest on my fingers, espically when spamming keys in a game.

I just ordered a quickfire rapid and that Cherry keyset. I'll save a little money this way, and I'll try to keep my eye out for groupbuys on keysets.

For O-rings, what size orthodontic bands work well? From what I'm reading it looks like 1/4" is right, but I wanted to double check.
Click to expand...

Reds require the same pressure as browns so the bump is really light and towards the top of the keystroke. Both switches register towards the top of the keystroke rather than when you bottom out like a crappy rubber dome. I don't think it could possibly add any stress to your fingers it's more of a question of whether or not you want feedback as the key registers. I like it because when I feel the bump I know that I do not have to bottom out the key since would create more stress and requires more time. Then again I still bottom them out sometimes when gaming or typing fast anyways so maybe it's a moot point.

Some people like the reds because they feel the bump makes the brown switch feel dirty( perception because the bump is so light). It is certainly not a click like a blue switch.

I think you will be happy with that setup, you might want to learn how to lube the stabilizers since I hear costar stabs can be a bit noisy compared to cherry stabs. For me that would take precedence over adding o-rings or keycaps but then again I returned my board that had costar style stabs (they were not the same mind you) do to clang they were making. You should certainly at least try the board without o-rings first. Also before buying a keycap set you should be sure that your keyboard uses standard size keys and the same stabalizers as the keycap set you intend to purchase.

"Quickfire keyboards have the "non-standard" key sizes for the CTRL / ALT / Windows / Fn keys. " according to my quick google so make sure they keycap set you order is specifically for a quickfire board. Double check the spacebar as well. Both CM and Corsair use non standard sized keys.
 
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Humm well too late on the keycap order. I already placed the order, though I'm not certain it dosn't work from what you said. According to the reddit keycapsize guide posted above:

"QuickFire Rapid
Standard Key Spacing: Key sizes in the CTRL / ALT / WINDOWS / SPACEBAR / etc row are (from left to right are) 1.25 1.25 1.25 spacebar(6.25X) 1.25 1.25 1.25 1.25"

Though I'm not sure about what these "stabilizers" are that you mention. Also, the set I ordered is only letters and numbers. So, that may avoid issues?

**Edit: I believe the quickfire pro/TK have the non standard key spacing.
 
egroeg555 said:
Thanks for the suggestions. I liked the feel of the red switches when I tried them out because it was the lightest press. I felt that I'd probably type faster on a heaver switch or one with the tactile bump, but I'm looking for the option that will be eaisest on my fingers, espically when spamming keys in a game.

I just ordered a quickfire rapid and that Cherry keyset. I'll save a little money this way, and I'll try to keep my eye out for groupbuys on keysets.

For O-rings, what size orthodontic bands work well? From what I'm reading it looks like 1/4" is right, but I wanted to double check.
Click to expand...

That (1/4") sounds about right, you may also want to purchase a wire type key puller (or make one) since it makes the task of pulling keys much faster and easier (good to have for basic key maintenance/cleaning as well if you're OCD about keeping things looking clean, lol).

As far as lubing the stabilizers Justintoxicated mentions; any cheap plastic safe grease will work, you can find white lithium grease at the local hardware or all-purpose store dirt cheap. Be very careful removing the stabilized keys as well; Costar stabs have fragile plastic inserts [that attach to the underside of the keys] that like to break if you muscle them at all (WASD sells replacements, but it still sucks busting them to begin with). Just make sure you're only using it to lube the wire stabilizers' contact points on the larger keys and not the micro-switches them selves, haha.
 
egroeg555 said:
Humm well too late on the keycap order. I already placed the order, though I'm not certain it dosn't work from what you said. According to the reddit keycapsize guide posted above:

"QuickFire Rapid
Standard Key Spacing: Key sizes in the CTRL / ALT / WINDOWS / SPACEBAR / etc row are (from left to right are) 1.25 1.25 1.25 spacebar(6.25X) 1.25 1.25 1.25 1.25"

Though I'm not sure about what these "stabilizers" are that you mention. Also, the set I ordered is only letters and numbers. So, that may avoid issues?

**Edit: I believe the quickfire pro/TK have the non standard key spacing.
Click to expand...

I didn't look into it too deeply but if the set is just letters and numbers you will probably be fine. The spacebar is always the key to develop shine the fastest and a lot of people really hate that, so it's nice to at least get a standard size space-bar ;)

Stabilizers are what keeps the long keys from tilting to the side if you do not press them dead dead center. For the most part there is costar and cherry. Cherry stabs are the easiest to remove the keycaps from, but some (maybe most) people prefer lubed costars to them. Then again lubed and trimmed cherries are supposed to be even better but I have never felt the need to do any of those mods to my blackbird with cherry stabs. CM uses costar stabs and I think lubing them is probably really easy to do. I think key-caps for both types are compatible though, but if you get something screwy like the Poseidon board that uses it's own crappy stabs then your screwed.
 
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Justintoxicated said:
I didn't look into it too deeply but if the set is just letters and numbers you will probably be fine. The spacebar is always the key to develop shine the fastest and a lot of people really hate that, so it's nice to at least get a standard size space-bar ;)

Stabilizers are what keeps the long keys from tilting to the side if you do not press them dead dead center. For the most part there is costar and cherry. Cherry stabs are the easiest to remove the keycaps from, but some (maybe most) people prefer lubed costars to them. Then again lubed and trimmed cherries are supposed to be even better but I have never felt the need to do any of those mods to my blackbird with cherry stabs. CM uses costar stabs and I think lubing them is probably really easy to do. I think key-caps for both types are compatible though, but if you get something screwy like the Poseidon board that uses it's own crappy stabs then your screwed.
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The QFR uses a standard key layout and normal full aftermarket key sets should fit it fine. The TK, Pro, Ultimate, Trigger and Mech have non-standard bottom rows, iirc, so those would have issues finding sets.

I'd advise caution when removing Costar stabilized keys as well; Costar stabilizers use slider tabs on the underside of the stabilized key to attach to the wire, these are often fragile and prone to breakage. That said, they are easier to lube than Cherry stabilizers because the full mechanism is exposed after removing the key cap.
 
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