Looking for a reliable PSU... help

[Helorot]

I'm building another computer, and I'm sort of out of the loop I guess. Firstly, the motherboard I'll be usng accepts 24-pin, but I think 20-pin might be cheaper and then just buy an adapter for that. The hardware I'll be running is an AMD 64 3200+, Geforce 6600GT, MSI K8N Neo4 Platinum mobo, 2 WD 80GB SE HDDs, Sony Internal 16X DVD+/-RW drive, and a couple additional fans. It should be noted that I don't plan on overclocking at all for now. How much wattage should I get total, and what is a good cheap drive for my needs? I know Antec is reliable and trustworthy, but they're pretty expensive. Does anybody have any opinions on this Powman Demon 480W PSU? http://www.newegg.com/app/viewProductDesc.asp?description=17-163-017&depa=0

Also, I still need to find a case, I want one that is well made but nothing too extravagant/expensive/flashy. I want to make sure the PSU is secure in it most of all, and ease of installation is a plus I guess. I'm trying to spend like 80 combined on the case and PSU. Any suggestions would be great. Thanks.

 

[StinkyMojo]

dunno if its just me, but i just flat out had a horrible experience with a powmax 400 watt and i think it was one of their top line models. I reccomend Antec all the way. I currently have a TruePower 430watt, on newegg its about $80, but you can find them here from $40-$50. Power Supplies are the one area where one should never skimp at, you basically get what you pay for, thats what i found out in my past experiences.

 

[[Spectre]]

http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=792566

Should answer that question

 

[DooLocsta]

I would tend to stay away from that Powmax. Ironically I just got my stuff today the exact same system that is kinda funny. I decided to go ahead and actually buy a psu I can hope to rely on which was the OCZ modstream 450, it was only 79.00 shipped from monarchcomputer.com. If you are set on using the 20 pin with the adapter I would at the very minimum go with a little bit higher ended Thermaltake, but this is just my opinion.

 

[Helorot]

Thanks for the replies. That thread seems really useful, but I'm still wondering what the range of wattage I should be looking for is?

Also, it's not that I am looking exclusively at 20-pin models, it's just that the 24-pin ones I have seen are very expensive, and there isn't much selection.

 

[Helorot]

I came across this note on the power supply page review I was looking to buy:

F.Y.I -- This PSU has a 20 Pin Main connector and a 4 Pin +12V connector, no PCI Express Connector. Super quite. A high quality unit for the $$. Newegg is a pioneer in sorting PSU's in versions, but wish they would add more details on connector pins.

What does this mean? I am going to be using a PCI-E video card. Also, does anybody understand the consequences of using a 20-pin PSU on a motherboard that takes 24-pin only, but using an adapter to connect the two so it fits? Does it limit the amount of power or something?

 

[Ice Czar]

Also, it's not that I am looking exclusively at 20-pin models, it's just that the 24-pin ones I have seen are very expensive, and there isn't much selection.

Power supplies become increasingly expensive

When I initially asked about this on a mailing list, Solaris x86 advocate Al Hopper told me I was drowning in my tea, and that it was "all very simple". I love the simplicity of Unix people.

He explained that the later P4 CPUs take their power from a 12 Volt feed and, using the onboard voltage regulators, generate the high current, low-voltages they need to operate (anywhere from ~ 1.6V to around 2.7V). So the first requirement is a PSU that has plenty of power available from the 12V supply. Since the older ATX compatible PSUs didn't supply much current from the 12V section you have to ensure that your new PS delivers enough current (or power in Watts) from the 12V section. That's why using your old P3 ATX PS is a big "no-no".

He then described the history of the post-P3 power supply mess:

The earlier Athlon motherboard manufacturers decided to solve the 12v problem by using an additional 4-pin square connector to get the extra 12V those CPUs required. However many older PSUs didn't provide the 12V 4-pin square connector.

The motherboard makers then wised up and decided that there was nothing magical about a square 4-pin connector, so they put a normal hard disk type socket on the motherboard and provided the 12v power via a standard hard disk (4-pin inline) connector. Problem solved - you may now use your older PSUs provided they supply sufficient 12V current (many did not).

Further confusion came from PSU manufacturers not specifying the capabilities of the PSU in a way that allowed the end user to verify it's 12V power output rating.

In the meantime the ATX spec was saying "use the new 6-pin" inline connector - and very few motherboard makers implemented it.

Just to be sure, some motherboard makers, implemented *both* the hard disk style 4-pin inline connector and the square 4-pin connector. They said "use either or both in any combination you like".

The spec then evolved to the 24-pin main connector. Again, most motherboard manufacturers did not wish to make their customers mad by mandating that they replace their power supplies. This might cause their customers to avoid motherboard upgrades. Some used a "special" 24-pin connector with the extra 4-pin connection blocked off, or colored so that the user could plugin a 20-pin plug into the correct end of the 24-pin socket on the motherboard. Many others simply ignored the 24-pin requirement in the specs. Again - problem solved - use your older PSU.

now that part one (above) has been sorted out at the mobo level, with the 24pin + 4pin aux the standard , it looks like ATX12V is going to follow EPS12V completely by also adopting the 8 pin auxillary mobo connector

1. dont get a 20 pin supply for a 24 pin board

2. never buy a power supply based on a budget
buy a supply based on what your requirements are and pony up the $$$ required
(better to run out of a cardboard box w\ a good supply)

3. its generally cheaper to buy 1 good supply in say a 3 year period than to upgrade supplies with new components

4. if 3 applies consider an EPS12V supply or hold off till the rumored upgrade sorts itself out
PCI-E just got upped to 150 watts from 75 watts, the extra 4 pins rumored to be added by migrating to the 8 pin standard makes alot more sense in that light

and finally
5.even the most expensive power supply is far cheaper than the components its capable of frying to a crisp
pain is the most effective teaching tool, learning without direct painful experience is often said to be a mark of higher intelligence

6. POWmax's dont even make good doorstops, much less power supplies
Russian Roulette

in the cheap seats Id recommend the Blue Strom, but then I didnt run your numbers either
there is a sticky that covers that at the top of the board

 

[Helorot]

I ended up buying a Fortron 530W 20-pin model ( http://www.newegg.com/app/viewProductDesc.asp?description=17-104-968&depa=0 ). I figure this will have all the juice I will need in the foreseeable future, especially since people say Fortron's are conservative in their wattage estimate. So since my mobo is 24 pin, I did buy an adapter. I highly doubt this will have any adverse effects since I won't be overclocking, and I think the PSU is of a high enough quality and has enough power to be alright even if I do somehow lose some power through another link being added between the PSU and motherboard. This is the adapter I bought. http://www.newegg.com/app/viewProductDesc.asp?description=12-101-121&depa=0 Does anybody think that this is like a cardinal sin or a terrible idea in my situation? I will probably buy a 24-pin PSU in the future if this becomes a problem, but I hope and don't think it will judging from what I have read.

 

[Ice Czar]

as a general rule the reason not to get a 20 pin ATX12V v1.3 supply to power a 24 pin mobo is that

in the ATX12V v2.0 spec, more amps for a given wattage class where shifted from the +3.3\5V rail to the +12V rail

its unlikely at this time that you would actually exceed the capacity of the wire the extra connections slit off of, or that the resistance an adapter would add would matter (its a neglgible amount around 0.01 ohms)

the 530 is a hybrid supply with its +12V rail pumped up abit, the mysterious rating on the +12V likely do to a wide crossload capability at the upper end of 28A it doesnt fall into the "typical" 20 pin camp

 

[Helorot]

So I'm not royally screwed and this should work fine, but technically speaking this wasn't the best choice?

 

[Ice Czar]

its pretty much a dead end supply, with no upgrade path, so as an investment....
youll need to keep an eye on what your trying to power off the +12V rail
older P3s and Athlons (on boards without the extra 4 pin +12v mobo connector) use the +3.3V-+5V rail (often a combined capacity rail) to power the CPU
but P4s and AMDs with a mobo that has a 4 pin +12V mobo connector power the CPU off the +12V (all AMD64's, Opterons & many MPs), and more and more graphics cards employ that rail as well, and thats what poweres PCI-E, in addition to its historical components, HDDs, opticals and fans

with all that on one rail, it can be a dynamic load, quite a bit for many a lesser supply to handle the 530 is pretty powerful but you wouldnt want to overload that rail, and its not the tightest supply when it comes to load regulation but its pretty good, again provided its not overloaded on that rail

basically from here on out, the vast majority of its total 530 watt capacity is going to be largely unemployed, as an example, look at the Antec Phantom an unusual supply in that most of the backward capacity has been trimmed off, important in a fanless supply, it beats the 530 in +12V amps with two +12V rail for a combined 30 A,
and its a 350 watt

 

[afropuff]

its pretty much a dead end supply, with no upgrade path, so as an investment....
youll need to keep an eye on what your trying to power off the +12V rail
older P3s and Athlons (on boards without the extra 4 pin +12v mobo connector) use the +3.3V-+5V rail (often a combined capacity rail) to power the CPU
but P4s and AMDs with a mobo that has a 4 pin +12V mobo connector power the CPU off the +12V (all AMD64's, Opterons & many MPs), and more and more graphics cards employ that rail as well, and thats what poweres PCI-E, in addition to its historical components, HDDs, opticals and fans

with all that on one rail, it can be a dynamic load, quite a bit for many a lesser supply to handle the 530 is pretty powerful but you wouldnt want to overload that rail, and its not the tightest supply when it comes to load regulation but its pretty good, again provided its not overloaded on that rail

basically from here on out, the vast majority of its total 530 watt capacity is going to be largely unemployed, as an example, look at the Antec Phantom an unusual supply in that most of the backward capacity has been trimmed off, important in a fanless supply, it beats the 530 in +12V amps with two +12V rail for a combined 30 A,
and its a 350 watt

Then the FAQ needs to be updated and people to stop saying "look at the FAQ" blah blah..

because it is misleading people these days into buying the Fort 530 instead of a 2.0 PSU, causing a bunch of problems!

-fro

 

[64bit_is_here]

true it does need to be updated, with more emphasis on ATX12V V2.0 Supllies, but then many, many PSU's out there have to be given a thumbs down.

and the fortron 530 is still one of the best 20pin supplies available, so people are not really mislead, its just that they would be better off with a blue storm etc. look at the number of people buying crappy PSU's, atleast by getting the fortron they are getting a solid PSU. I think its actually even better than some 24pin PSU's (think crappy ones)

However i dont understand why the fortron 530W has been so popular, and most people sont even know that there is a EPS version of the 530, the 550W fortron available for a little bit more.

 

[Helorot]

OK, can somebody just say whether or not this is going to melt my computer down or not? I'm not overclocking and know jack shit about rails and voltage blah blah blah. Is this going to work and not cause some sort of electrical failure?

 

[[Spectre]]

OK, can somebody just say whether or not this is going to melt my computer down or not? I'm not overclocking and know jack shit about rails and voltage blah blah blah. Is this going to work and not cause some sort of electrical failure?

It is a quality PSU from a good manufacturer. You are fine.

 

[Helorot]

OK, I just wanted to make sure the adapter from 20-pin to 24-pin motherboard wouldn't complicate things. If I thought/knew that it would I would probably just buy another PSU and send this one back (and eat the shipping cost).

 

[[Spectre]]

OK, I just wanted to make sure the adapter from 20-pin to 24-pin motherboard wouldn't complicate things. If I thought/knew that it would I would probably just buy another PSU and send this one back (and eat the shipping cost).

I think what everyone was trying to tell you was that the PSU you picked is fine....the one issue is that if you decide to do some heavy duty upgrading down the line you will probably have to get a new one at that time. There is a transition right now in the PSU spec to the new 2.0 spec......it is kind of like getting caught in a socket change for a processor.......they both work just one will be the nmore current tech and it will be upgradable longer. Hope that helps.

 

[Helorot]

Yes, that helps to ease my fears. I don't do much upgrading, I usually keep a computer for 3 or 4 years and then build a new one. I have a feeling that things will change even more by then that there is a chance if I did get a 24-pin PSU it might even be obsolete by then too. I am just glad to be having a new computer, this one has been handicapped (AGP slot is fucked up and I can't use my good video card in it) for a while so I am more than excited to finally have some gaming capabilities again.

 

[Helorot]

I got my motherboard today, and the manual says you can just plug a 20-pin PSU in right into the 24-pin spot and leave the 4-pins unconnected on the end. Problem solved.

 

[afropuff]

I got my motherboard today, and the manual says you can just plug a 20-pin PSU in right into the 24-pin spot and leave the 4-pins unconnected on the end. Problem solved.

seems like you 0wned that motherboard..

-fro