Liquid Cool Noobie Questions

[Sneak]

Have been reading and lot of stuff getting all the info I can. Keep reading, buy components and build your own ! That sunk in so I read more. Looks like it is the way to go too.

Question: I have a Thermaltake Xaser III case which I like just fine. But as you may know it has 80 mm fans. It has 7 fans in there though. Looking around at rads I can't seem to see one that will fit with this rig. Looks like I would need a narrow one to go on the back of the case with 2 80 mm fans blowing on it. I see them out there that are 5 3/4 inches wide and that won't work on this case. Any narrow ones or any ideas how to do it?

Would be cooling the CPU which will be aan e6700 and vid card which looks to be a GX2 unless G80 hits.. So we should call that SLI because of the 2 GPU's.

Any advice?

Also ha, I was in Fry's a couple of years ago and they had some system there that had some kind of sparklies in the liquid that flowed through the cooling system. Was a neat looking mod actually. Was told that they were not conductive and didn't hurt cooling performance. Is that a fact? Are those things still available? Are they a problem for cooling?

 

[penguin]

Black Ice Micro:
http://www.dangerdenstore.com/home.php?cat=87 (Not necessarily the best place to buy - I haven't done any price comparisons on them)

 

[danks]

In order to fit a quality rad you may have to do some modding. I've seen lots of people dremel out the top of that case and mount a BIP2 or GT2. You going to want at least a 2x120 rad if you plan on cooling the cpu and the vid card. There are 80mm rad's out there but I doubt that will cut it for your planned loop.

I'm not sure what that thing is you saw at fry's but anything floating around in your loop is a bad idea IMO. Especially if your using an impingement waterblock for you cpu, it will just clog the jets.

 

[penguin]

I'm not sure what that thing is you saw at fry's but anything floating around in your loop is a bit idea IMO. Especially if your using an impingement waterblock for you cpu, it will just clog the jets.

Back then it might have been they were running low-restriction blocks like Swiftech 6002s or Maze4s, in which case the sparklies might not have been as bad, but now adays they would kill any decent waterblock.

 

[Sneak]

Hey thanks for the quick replies. No decision on the water block but the TDX seems to fit well enough. OK so sparklies are out. Too bad, you could see the liquid flowing with that mod.

So I take it that a micro II rad with 2 good 80 mm fans is not going to do it with a GX2. Or is it a possible? I use the USB ports on top of this case so a mod would force me to re-route those somewhere. And there doesn't seem to be a nice place for them to my eye yet.

I can't remember the name of the part at the moment but do those micro II 80 mm fan rads have the shroud item that properly directs the fan onto them?

 

[penguin]

If your case has 7 80mm fans, you could always run two Black Ice micro II radiators in it, but you would probably want a hefty pump (a D5 could probably handle it).

The Black Ice radiators have mounting holes drilled in them for you to mount fans on. The fans screw directly onto the radiator.

 

[Sneak]

Thanks, was looking at that D5 pump. Looks like 2 brands of the same pump I could buy.

Penguin, you have me thinking now. Hmm, maybe even a Micro and a micro II. There is a fan on the inside top of this case and that micro rad might fit under it. I could loop from the Conroe e6700 which is good with heat to the small rad then to the GPU and then to the bigger rad, then to the reservoir and then pump. Not sure how efficient that would be but you have me thinking. A bit more tube but oh well.

 

[Sneak]

OK a couple more questions:

Tygon or Masterkleer tubing? Masterkleer is 1/16 thinner inside so it fits snugger. Tygon is premium stuff. Does it last a lot longer?

Does is make any difference if the fans push the air through the rad or pull it through?

T line or reservoir? Lots of opinions around on that. Some say a few C better cooling with a reservoir. Opinions? Is having both just redundant. I actually like the idea of a T line with a fill port on top of my case.

Fluids? Boy lots out there. Having one that is UV reactive would be nice. Blue. Those brands out there are a bit pricey I think. Is it better to use just distilled water with a UV additive? Or buy one of those complete bottles? Whats good as far as brand. Could be lots of Snake Oil out there.



I think I can fit a 2 x 120 rad with fans on the back of my case if I use the GT stealth 240 rad. 5 1/4 wide which might just squeek by without having to overlap the edge of my case. This size rad will not go inside.

 

[chris.c]

1. I recommend masterkleer
2. push or pull... whatever is easier to mount. as long as fresh "outside" air is being pushed or pulled through the radiator you are fine. some radiators perform better with push (thermochill PA) and others with pull. the difference is a few degrees at most.
3. t-line, less pressure drop, better flow.
4. additives: run pure water in an all copper/brass loop that never sees light. run a few drops of algaecide (from a pet store) in an all copper/brass loop that gets daylight. use pentosin if you want blue. stay away from everything else.

 

[EvilTwinSkippy]

Question: I have a Thermaltake Xaser III case which I like just fine. But as you may know it has 80 mm fans. It has 7 fans in there though. Looking around at rads I can't seem to see one that will fit with this rig. Looks like I would need a narrow one to go on the back of the case with 2 80 mm fans blowing on it. I see them out there that are 5 3/4 inches wide and that won't work on this case. Any narrow ones or any ideas how to do it?

Spend 20-25 bucks on a Swiftech Radbox and you can put any radiator you want on there. I have a Lian Li PC82 which has an 80mm exhaust, but I attached a Radbox and I have two MCR120 radiators hanging from it (one hooked to the Radbox, the second hooked to the first via a little custom homemade bracket fabricating) with no issues.

OK a couple more questions:

Tygon or Masterkleer tubing? Masterkleer is 1/16 thinner inside so it fits snugger. Tygon is premium stuff. Does it last a lot longer?

Go with Tygon. Thicker tubing wall is a good thing. It means it's less likely to kink if you need to make a low-radius bend.

Does is make any difference if the fans push the air through the rad or pull it through?

You'll get differing opinions on this depending on who you talk to, but my fans push. Especially if you decide to use a Radbox, the fan will be pushing air that's outside of the case anyway.

T line or reservoir? Lots of opinions around on that. Some say a few C better cooling with a reservoir. Opinions? Is having both just redundant. I actually like the idea of a T line with a fill port on top of my case.

Reservoir IMO. Generally, it's less restrictive, and you don't have to be quite so concerned about low fluid levels since it's easy to check. Plus, it's basically a big pool of coolant that's recently gone through the radiator so any particular drop of fluid has a little more time to lose a degree or two before going through another cycle.

Fluids? Boy lots out there. Having one that is UV reactive would be nice. Blue. Those brands out there are a bit pricey I think. Is it better to use just distilled water with a UV additive? Or buy one of those complete bottles? Whats good as far as brand. Could be lots of Snake Oil out there.

Most additives are glorified (and some not so glorified) anti-freeze, which means it will increase the cooling capacity of your distilled water. I would definitely recommend a UV coolant as opposed to a straight-up UV additive. The "complete bottle" isn't woth it since you're basically paying someone else to add the water. I know it's green instead of blue, but I use Swiftech HydrX and I get some pretty good temps with my setup. $2.95 a bottle plus shipping at Coolerguys:

http://www.coolerguys.com/840556037316.html

I usually buy 3-5 at a time just to make it worth the money I spend on shipping. No matter what you use, flush your system clean every six months MAX.

Now, with the all said, keep in mind I'm not an expert and this is not my gospel. It's only advice based on about 2 years' worth of WC experience and YMMV.

 

[chris.c]

Reservoir IMO. Generally, it's less restrictive

Explain to me how having a res is LESS restrictive than not having one.

Plus, it's basically a big pool of coolant that's recently gone through the radiator so any particular drop of fluid has a little more time to lose a degree or two before going through another cycle.

You realize that the temperature inside your case is warmer than the air that just passed through your radiator, so if anything, you will gain a few degrees because the res is sitting in hot case air.

Most additives are glorified (and some not so glorified) anti-freeze, which means it will increase the cooling capacity of your distilled water.

No. Please do more research before giving people advice in the future

 

[penguin]

Explain to me how having a res is LESS restrictive than not having one.



You realize that the temperature inside your case is warmer than the air that just passed through your radiator, so if anything, you will gain a few degrees because the res is sitting in hot case air.



No. Please do more research before giving people advice in the future

QFT, but that was a little harsh.

 

[EvilTwinSkippy]

Explain to me how having a res is LESS restrictive than not having one.

Point taken. I should not have said "less restrictive", I should have said "not any more restrictive". You'll have to explain to me how putting a T-connector in the direct path of the coolant flow with nipples less than the ID of the hose isn't restrictive.

You realize that the temperature inside your case is warmer than the air that just passed through your radiator, so if anything, you will gain a few degrees because the res is sitting in hot case air.

Hmm.... can't argue that one. I have a good airflow path so my case temp is generally within a few degrees of ambient, but still, I see your point.

No. Please do more research before giving people advice in the future

I should have specified cooling additives as opposed to straight UV additives. Otherwise should I assume you run straight water through your car's cooling system during the summer? Also, to quote myself:

"Now, with the all said, keep in mind I'm not an expert and this is not my gospel."

 

[chris.c]

You'll have to explain to me how putting a T-connector in the direct path of the coolant flow with nipples less than the ID of the hose isn't restrictive.

A t-fitting adds restriction, no question about that. But keep in mind a resevoir also has input and output fittings with < tube ID, and it also "breaks" the flow of water.

I should have specified cooling additives as opposed to straight UV additives. Otherwise should I assume you run straight water through your car's cooling system during the summer?

Cars run coolant additives for 4 reasons:

lower the freezing point
raise the boiling point
lubricate
prevent corrosion

Additives actually reduce the "cooling capacity" of water, they are only used for the reasons I stated above.

And yes, I run straight water with a splash of water wetter year round in both my car and motorcycle. It never gets below freezing where I live.

 

[penguin]

A t-fitting adds restriction, no question about that. But keep in mind a resevoir also has input and output fittings with < tube ID, and it also "breaks" the flow of water.



Cars run coolant additives for 4 reasons:

lower the freezing point
raise the boiling point
lubricate
prevent corrosion

Additives actually reduce the "cooling capacity" of water, they are only used for the reasons I stated above.

And yes, I run straight water with a splash of water wetter year round in both my car and motorcycle. It never gets below freezing where I live.

Technically, watter wetter and other coolant additives lower the surface tension of water, making it a better coolant, but antifreeze decreases the cooling ability. That's why people only run 10% antifreeze in PC cooling systems - if it cooled better, wouldn't we run straight antifreeze?

 

[EvilTwinSkippy]

A t-fitting adds restriction, no question about that. But keep in mind a resevoir also has input and output fittings with < tube ID, and it also "breaks" the flow of water.

Agreed, but the res also provides a constant supply of fluid, so the disruption shouldn't prevent a constant rate of flow through the output fitting equal to the flow into the res from the input fitting. I think it's more a matter of personal preference.

Cars run coolant additives for 4 reasons:

lower the freezing point
raise the boiling point
lubricate
prevent corrosion

Additives actually reduce the "cooling capacity" of water, they are only used for the reasons I stated above.

And yes, I run straight water with a splash of water wetter year round in both my car and motorcycle. It never gets below freezing where I live.

A surfactant (such as Water Wetter) increases the capacity of a water molecule to transfer heat. I would bet that the vast majority of coolant additives marketed for water cooling systems also have some sort of surfactant in them, which would increase the cooling capacity of the fluid. Do I know this for a fact? No, I don't know the chemical make-up of all of the products on the market. I was making a reasonable assumption, which is why I called it "glorified". What I do know for a fact is that I see lower temps with HydrX in my WC system than when I run water alone.

Once again, it's all about personal preference. I don't claim to be an expert and I even stated so in my original post. Nor am I in any way saying you are wrong. You seem to know your stuff. I'm just trying to give the guy my point of view since I've spent a few dollars over the past couple of years trying to find a WC setup that works best for me.

Now enough about us. Let's all get back to the matter at hand and see if we can help Sneak make a decision.

 

[penguin]

A surfactant (such as Water Wetter) increases the capacity of a water molecule to transfer heat. I would bet that the vast majority of coolant additives marketed for water cooling systems also have some sort of surfactant in them, which would increase the cooling capacity of the fluid. Do I know this for a fact? No, I don't know the chemical make-up of all of the products on the market. I was making a reasonable assumption, which is why I called it "glorified". What I do know for a fact is that I see lower temps with HydrX in my WC system than when I run water alone.

Ahh, sorry, I had thought you were calling Antifreeze a surfactant. My mistake

 

[Sneak]

Now enough about us. Let's all get back to the matter at hand and see if we can help Sneak make a decision.

Well I am enjoying all of this. Actually reading the banter and opinions does help. There may not be any hard and fast answers to some of this, only opinions and personal choice.

Here is basically where I am on components and this could change.

CPU Block: TDX (seems generally good all around.)

Pump: D5 (Don't really care whose label is on it)

Radiator: Stealth GTS 240 Black Ice (The width should work well on the back of my case and looks like a good one anyway.)

Rad Box: Whatever brand works, doesn't look like it matters which.

120 Fans: Not partial to any brand yet. Maybe Vantec but I keep seeing the name Papst.

Tubing: Tygon at this point although Masterkleer looks pretty good too. The Tygon I now see is made in the 7/16 ID and 5/8 OD which would be a snug fit. But the 1/2 ID and 3/4 OD has nice thick walls. Does it matter?

T Line or Reservoir: As I said above, the T Line to the top of my case sounds about right and one of those nifty DD Fill Ports in anodized black would be nice. But I have space to easily put a small res in a 3.5 drive bay or bigger elsewhere. Saw a few out there. Would having both be dumb?

Clamps: Stainless Worm Drive (Doubt I would use anything else)

GPU Block: Ha, in a quandry here. With G80 maybe looming soon I am torn. If that thing pops soon then I can figure out what block based on the new G80 card. My choice now would be an eVGA GX2. But I would not buy those nice $200.00 blocks for a card I may trade in in less than 2 months. I could just WC the cpu for now and leave the GPU on air. Not decided there.

Cooling Liquid: I am really torn between Schlitz Malt Liquoir or a nice Merlot. The golden color of hops and barley might look genuinely cool running through this comp. But then the Burgundy color of Merlot under a black light might truely fit while I am playing FEAR.

I have no firm idea what liquid to put in this thing at this point. The hardware is not hard to figure but the flow juice is bogging me down. OK so water is the best coolant, add some Zerex and a bit of algea inhibitor and all is well. But I want UV reactive Blue to mod up the case a bit.. Throws a kink in there. HydrX looks real good but it is UV green. PC Ice looks kind of good, a bit more money, and seems to cool a couple of degrees hotter based on reviews. But that could be subjective. It is a bit conductive but not as conductive as water or anything else except the high dollar 3M stuff. I could just put a lot of blue lights in this case and use the HydrX UV green. The blue ambiance with green liquid might be nice. But then again Robert Mondavi really makes a nice Merlot!

Thats where I am right now. It could change based on info I get. All opinions are helpful. If you have any thoughts, fire away.

And thanks guys for all the posts and info above.

 

[Sneak]

I guess no one liked my idea of Schlitz Malt Liquoir or Merlot for coolant!

After reading Petra's great post I am looking hard at the Liang DDC+ 18 watt pump and a custom top for it. Is small, dumps little heat in the coolant, fairly quiet, does the job it is inteneded for very well, and looks kind of cool too.

Oh, one quick one. Is there a best way to drain a coolant system when you need to change fluid or replace a water block or whatever. Must be a method, just unplugging a full coolant line looks messy.

 

[Arcygenical]

Masterkleer tubing. Dont go for the Tygon crap. (OK it's not Crap, but the performance/price ratio is very, very low).

Good choice on the radiator. There are 4$ yate loon fans over at Jab-Tech which do the job very well.

Um, as for draining the system, you can put a Tline in the bottom, and have like a ball valve for draining. I just do the "unplug and prey" method, which usually results to getting water EVERYWHERE.

 

[Sniper X]

Yate loon fans are very quiet and are a excellent choice for watercooling.

 

[Sneak]

OK Sniper X and Arcygenical, will go have a peek at Yate Loons, sounds like the ticket. And there seems to be no compelling reason to go with Tygon over Masterkleer for the price then. At least am gathering that.

Arcygenical, that second T line is a good idea. I have a picture of that in my mind. Might it be best to be a 45 angle coming off the line away from the flow for that drain line? Right at the bottom of the case? I need to look at fittings. Will go out hunting a valve or cap for the end of that line.