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Linux Adds 10K Users Overnight
- Thread starter CommanderFrank
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I'm just gonna say I'm all for linux but it's got nothing on windows when comes to certain areas and until it improves it's not going to take off. It's not just gaming. Office is leaps and bounds over openoffice even the most avid linux support has to recognize this. The biggest problem I have with linux is all the little problems, everything will work generally except one little thing which ends up being 9 hours going through config files to get it to work. Such as the mouse not working on my laptop. Wireless not working on my desktop. In general linux works but I always run into some little thing that just doesn't work and ends up being more hassle than going with windows. Linux is nice in that it's free, my router runs clearos. But I don't see linux taking over the desktop/cooperate world anytime soon.
heatlesssun
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Again if Linux were significantly cheaper none of this would matter. People would just use Linux because of the cost savings if they were that great. However you do bring up some valid points about the Linux desktop funding model.
This will eand in tears especially if thats 10000 users who are used to Windows and Office.
I wouldnt want to be the tech support team the next week/month/year.
I noticed someone said they could show a user round linux in 10 minutes. Thing is in large corporate environments you dont get even 10 minutes but your boss wants that 40 page report and presentation by lunchtime and you have Open Office to do it on and a whole different looking file structure.
Carnage.
Then you get 'special user' usually execs that dont want the 'crappy linux stuff' so they get dispensation to have a Windows box with Office. So then their secretaries/PAs have to have it. Then a few weeks later their subordinates need it...................
As mentioned...give it a year.
I wouldnt want to be the tech support team the next week/month/year.
I noticed someone said they could show a user round linux in 10 minutes. Thing is in large corporate environments you dont get even 10 minutes but your boss wants that 40 page report and presentation by lunchtime and you have Open Office to do it on and a whole different looking file structure.
Carnage.
Then you get 'special user' usually execs that dont want the 'crappy linux stuff' so they get dispensation to have a Windows box with Office. So then their secretaries/PAs have to have it. Then a few weeks later their subordinates need it...................
As mentioned...give it a year.
think about this hypothetical scenario...
Take a person who's never used a PC before and drop them in front of ubuntu and win 7 on identical machines or dual boots. Teach them how to use each one and ask which they'd prefer. I'd be willing to bet they'd actually prefer the linux distro over windows because it's easier to use (keeps you from rummaging around the net to update all of your programs/drivers), it's certainly prettier to look at and it's a thousand times safer.
I think what people neglect to understand, at least on forums like these, is that the average user gets a ton of malware and/or viruses just from normal web browsing. We tend to know better, but they don't. They don't keep their software up to date and subsequently pick up anything and everything with IE. They don't use photoshop, cad, and they game on the ps3/xbox. When set up properly (the correct drivers installed), a linux distro is just so much easier to maintain and gives much fewer headaches. Linux is just harder to break, and that's crucial. And the driver issue and lack of gaming isn't linux's problem in the first place, that's the hardware providers not providing proper drivers and a complete monopoly by microsoft with directx as the *only* real API. if it weren't for gaming I'd never boot into win 7. why in the world would you pay $140 dollars for an operating system when you can get better for free.
I hear horror stories that people's hardware is unsupported, chances are open-source drivers are better than the drivers you have to download (and an overwhelming majority work just fine and support much broader hardware than microsoft does even with their damn near 40gig windows 7 installation). I hate linux shouldn't be the next words uttering from your mouth, but rather what the hell is the company doing not providing linux drivers.
Take a person who's never used a PC before and drop them in front of ubuntu and win 7 on identical machines or dual boots. Teach them how to use each one and ask which they'd prefer. I'd be willing to bet they'd actually prefer the linux distro over windows because it's easier to use (keeps you from rummaging around the net to update all of your programs/drivers), it's certainly prettier to look at and it's a thousand times safer.
I think what people neglect to understand, at least on forums like these, is that the average user gets a ton of malware and/or viruses just from normal web browsing. We tend to know better, but they don't. They don't keep their software up to date and subsequently pick up anything and everything with IE. They don't use photoshop, cad, and they game on the ps3/xbox. When set up properly (the correct drivers installed), a linux distro is just so much easier to maintain and gives much fewer headaches. Linux is just harder to break, and that's crucial. And the driver issue and lack of gaming isn't linux's problem in the first place, that's the hardware providers not providing proper drivers and a complete monopoly by microsoft with directx as the *only* real API. if it weren't for gaming I'd never boot into win 7. why in the world would you pay $140 dollars for an operating system when you can get better for free.
I hear horror stories that people's hardware is unsupported, chances are open-source drivers are better than the drivers you have to download (and an overwhelming majority work just fine and support much broader hardware than microsoft does even with their damn near 40gig windows 7 installation). I hate linux shouldn't be the next words uttering from your mouth, but rather what the hell is the company doing not providing linux drivers.
>90% of people who use MS office can get by with libreoffice and openoffice, both of which they can find support for by contacting novell. there are only certain rare cases where you actually need MS office because an open source alternative won't suffice. Most claims that they need ms office are to do with familiarity, laziness and being stubborn.
While I do agree with most of what you said, I don't agree with people paying $140 for Windows. For the "average" consumer they look at getting windows for free with their new PC they just bought at BB or the likes. Why should they wipe out Windows then turn around install Linux after they try to figure out how to burn an ISO to disk when they have a perfectly good OS already installed? Way to much of a hassle for the "average" user.
As for Linux being better and prettier, well that's just your opinion. Linux might be better at certain things just like Windows is better at certain things, but no OS is the better at everything
.Linux is no immediate threat to Windows for the average home user, for a bunch of reasons. However in many organizations I think it's not such a crazy idea to switch over. You obviously have to take a good, hard look before you make the leap. The key issue is the applications being used - if there's no good Linux alternative to Windows applications currently in use, that's a deal-breaker generally. Taking MS office for example, even if office suites for Linux lack some of the functionality, this isn't an issue unless the missing functionality is an issue. I think it would be smart to do a small-scale experiment with some users to see how that works out first. As for higher "hidden administration costs" with Linux - I don't really buy that. I don't see how it's inherently more expensive to run, even though I keep hearing this claim.
cdr_74_premium
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I really think Win7 is safe enough, but hey, I'll give you that Linux is safer.
But... faster? I can't think of a computer that ran Ubuntu faster than Windows 7. And I did install Win7 on some damn old PCs...
4saken
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yeah, not really. Win7 opened up a massive gap on the workstation segment. linux has zero traction there.
I work with linux everyday in a server environment. I would NEVER wish linux upon our organization as a desktop. Nightmare scenario. I think people who do not understand what we mean when we say that work for mom n pop shops, or are hobbyists. Working at an enterprise level corp opens your eyes as to why MS is by far and wide top dog and wont be unseated anytime in the near future.
Who cares? Why are people talking about Windows and their numbers?
Microsoft spend MILLIONS of dollars advertising the new windows... linux has not spend even one million (if any at all) and it has a shit ton of users. If it did not, you would not even know what Linux is!
Linux is more popular than you think... I use windows 99.9% of the time so don't get me as a fanboy, but Linux is used in our lives every single day, I'm pretty sure.
I will admit I have been a windows tech for over 10 years. I have dabbled in linux/ubuntu.
While I can see ubuntu being a decent desktop solution for "simple" computing needs aka web browsing, it falls VERY short in many areas, especially for a non-techie.
I am not a complete noob, not afraid of a commandline, or scripts etc. I found setting up ubuntu was a pain in the arse (about 1 year ago).
Had video driver issues, try to upgrade... wait even nvidia has some long commandline process to upgrade drivers.... Can't I just download a file and run it and click next next next... nope! not with linux.
Ok search the internet... learn about su and sudo commands, ok got it..
Ok why isn't my linux showing up on my windows network (sorry but they HAVE to support this)... Ok search internet, find some blow hard linux god that says open admin command line go to users\blah blah blah file open it and edit config... REALLY I have to manually edit a config file to setup a windows workgroup????? OK where the hell is this users directory??? Since the internets didn't say a path, assume root... nope its somewhere else cause the linux forums assume everyone is a guru...
Oh sweet ubuntu has a software repository like an app store... this is cool as hell... type, type type, search for gimp software... oh 100 items found, most seem to be gibberish names... oh this one has the actual work "gimp" in it (56 on the list)... I will click that... huh why did half the window highligt and enable???????? Why is this so user UNFRIENDLY???
Bottom line, while I think linux is probably much better then 10 years ago... it is still a geek OS (at least ubuntu which I hear is the most user friendly) unless its been locked down for device like OS. While I COULD eventually figure out basic config there is NO way my girlfriend could where as at least she has a shot.
Not even to mention that linux is versions are confusing, people complain about android... they would freak over linux desktop. As even mentioned in this thread NO packaging/installer standard. I hear audio and even video is improving but still a major sore spot and the distros have trouble standardizing the cores.
While I can see ubuntu being a decent desktop solution for "simple" computing needs aka web browsing, it falls VERY short in many areas, especially for a non-techie.
I am not a complete noob, not afraid of a commandline, or scripts etc. I found setting up ubuntu was a pain in the arse (about 1 year ago).
Had video driver issues, try to upgrade... wait even nvidia has some long commandline process to upgrade drivers.... Can't I just download a file and run it and click next next next... nope! not with linux.
Ok search the internet... learn about su and sudo commands, ok got it..
Ok why isn't my linux showing up on my windows network (sorry but they HAVE to support this)... Ok search internet, find some blow hard linux god that says open admin command line go to users\blah blah blah file open it and edit config... REALLY I have to manually edit a config file to setup a windows workgroup????? OK where the hell is this users directory??? Since the internets didn't say a path, assume root... nope its somewhere else cause the linux forums assume everyone is a guru...
Oh sweet ubuntu has a software repository like an app store... this is cool as hell... type, type type, search for gimp software... oh 100 items found, most seem to be gibberish names... oh this one has the actual work "gimp" in it (56 on the list)... I will click that... huh why did half the window highligt and enable???????? Why is this so user UNFRIENDLY???
Bottom line, while I think linux is probably much better then 10 years ago... it is still a geek OS (at least ubuntu which I hear is the most user friendly) unless its been locked down for device like OS. While I COULD eventually figure out basic config there is NO way my girlfriend could where as at least she has a shot.
Not even to mention that linux is versions are confusing, people complain about android... they would freak over linux desktop. As even mentioned in this thread NO packaging/installer standard. I hear audio and even video is improving but still a major sore spot and the distros have trouble standardizing the cores.
by faster i meant consumes less resources and more streamline; less PC intensive. As for the file system being faster, that would depend on the tests being done http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=ODIxNw
clean installation of win 7 takes up around ~700mb ram? I have xplanetfx, docks and widgets running on my ubuntu 10.10 and it still takes up less resources than win 7 running steam and winamp alone.
One thing that the average user does buy (and pay for with regularity) are anti-virus programs and updates. I can't tell you how many PCs I've fixed that have had norton or mcaffee and have been littered with malware and viruses despite the poor sap paying for "security." Win 7 is still trying to remind me that I need to turn on my firewall and find an antivirus program -- and apparently it's "important." If you're smart you won't need to use the windows firewall and simply being wary of how you browse and which browser you use can nearly eliminate any potential risk. And when you do get a virus, just back up and format or fix it yourself.
Unfortunately, though, as incredibly easy as all this may sound to us, it's like hieroglyphics to an average user. I've installed ubuntu on my parents' PC after they picked up a trojan. For years my father used to think that AOL was the internet, and now he's using linux and doing nearly everything from there. With one click he updates all of his drivers and programs and doesn't need to worry about viruses and security. The one thing he can't do on linux is use google's sketchup for architectural drawings and 3D designs, so I installed windows on his laptop. But for an overwhelming majority of users, linux would more than suffice, frankly it'd just be easier...
Some of this is a flat-out lie, or you only spent 5 minutes with the distro and therefore know little or nothing about it.
Standardization in packages has come about, and when you download a driver from AMD it'll say "Linux" rather than ubuntu, or suse, or fedora. Some packages, like .tar's and .rpm's and .deb's will install and work just fine across other distros. Ubuntu can open nearly all of them. As long as you don't go looking for joe shmo's basement linux distribution, you'll be fine. The biggest problem you'll run into is am i running gnome or kde? but that's about as difficult as is this operating system 64 or 32 bit?
The synaptic manager and software repository got so popular that apple decided to use it. I do agree, though, there needs to be subdivisions with respect to the program itself and the addons. It is still too messy. Furthermore, KDE/Gnome/XFCE should all be hidden away somewhere and only show the proper programs depending on which desktop environment you're currently running.
your video drivers would've worked fine with the open source drivers, furthermore, you can download the proprietary drivers right from the repository; in fact it'll even recommend it. why you chose to use the command line or what the hell happened I don't know, but it's literally as easy as clicking install. If you want to get the latest drivers from their site (and not just the recommended ones) then download the linux drivers from the nvidia website, you know, the same drivers that work for all distros. Don't work? Blame nvidia. Linux didn't make your graphics card.
Yeah I lie cause I hate linux... I have 3 windows and 2 linux boxes in my house... just so happens both linux distros are custom "device" built versions.
As I said this was about a year ago... no shit nvidia had a long command line instruction webpage to downloading and upgrading their drivers. I am glad it has improved. I did find a repo someone put up but then again it was 3rd party (rather not do that) and I had to setup a repo which wasn't the easiest for a first timer.
Yes it was a first use of the OS, and that is my point EXACTLY. It is easier to config the simple stuff in windows. More and better info, better instructions for the average person. Virtually no commandline file editing for simple STANDARD networking stuff.
I got everything working but it was just plain harder to do with ubuntu. Not a huge deal for me, I like figuring out this stuff. But when people say linux is good for the normal desktop I balk.
As for security... yes its much safer to browse the web NOW... but what happens if linux becomes #1... then you will see infections even on linux cause people will click OK to ANYTHING.
Well, you set the OS up on the machine. How many users do that? They buy a prebuilt system that they overpaid for that came with a ton of crap they don't need asking them to subscribe. Installing ubuntu is about as difficult as installing win7 from scratch. Pick the hard drive, install. Drivers are up and ready to go. I actually had more trouble installing win 7 and getting the drivers to work than i did ubuntu 10.10 because win 7 wouldn't recognize my realtek sound on my asrock mobo, whereas ubuntu did. But really, the point about the first time installation is moot, as it's usually people like us who do it. And if they need to format and reinstall the OS it's problem because of security, and you still should be doing a clean format -- which is still the same difficulty on either OS, but with ubuntu you won't ever have to.
You can avoid the terminal completely. You don't have to set up any scripts. no sudo. none of that. everything is point and click. I personally love the terminal and would prefer to use it because it's faster and easier for me, but if you find it difficult then simply tuck it away somewhere in the closet, sort of like what apple does.
And, apple is also a unix OS. They're very popular and they also don't worry nearly as much about viruses. Thankfully, linux available browsers are far safer than safari or IE. The way that's handled is with the repositories and sifting through the garbage apps, making sure that there's no funny stuff. Linux was the first to introduce that, apple jumped aboard soon after and now windows is looking to do the same with win 8.
Furthermore, your router is running linux. It'll recognize a linux distro without ease, it's the windows machines that won't see the linux OSes. Blame microsoft.
I would disagree with you here. If ubuntu wants market penetration they are responsible for making their OS compatible. Why should windows do it when 80+% are windows and work already? Your view is almost the same as apple and flash... Lots of content is flash, people was flash on apple. apple says it's crappy (which it might be), but people still want flash on apple.
Ubuntu did join the windows workgroup eventually. I had to edit a config file to do so. I eventually found you there is an app you could download that put a GUI to SMB settings but imho that should be built in. Maybe with 10.10 its there now??? But this should not be the case. I wasn't trying to add the machine to a domain, just a simple workgroup. I think I even had to do some other things to get name resolution work work via netbios...
I am not saying linux/ubuntu is crap, I am just saying that when there are any sort of issue, it was more difficult and confusing for me to fix. And I am comfortable with what I am doing...
I agree a OEM OS build would be a better and more common situation, but then you still run into lack of app support by vendors. Chicken and the egg situation here though really... you need users to have people make apps... users won't buy in unless there are apps.
Seems pretty apparent that a lot of folks commenting here have never worked in large front line clerical offices in large corporations, nor actually worked in supporting the IT of said type offices and users.
Like I said earlier, such a move...carnage.
I remember when our corporation tried to get rid of Visio. Oh they did for a few months but the resulting outrage, bloody mindednes of the users cost a fortune and after trying to replace it with Powerpoint 97 it wasnt long before folks wrangled Visio onto their machines so then it spread back in. Eventually it died out but that was more to do with trends in software than anything else.
Like I said earlier, such a move...carnage.
I remember when our corporation tried to get rid of Visio. Oh they did for a few months but the resulting outrage, bloody mindednes of the users cost a fortune and after trying to replace it with Powerpoint 97 it wasnt long before folks wrangled Visio onto their machines so then it spread back in. Eventually it died out but that was more to do with trends in software than anything else.
heatlesssun
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I do, I work for a company with one of the largest private Windows desktop deployments in the world. It would literally cost us a billion dollars to replace Windows with Linux. We have around 400,000 Windows XP workstations and laptops and are in the process of migrating to Windows 7 which is going to take about 2 years. But when you consider all of the training and application migration costs associated with a world wide deployment of Windows desktops.
People love to talk about Windows lock in and while there's truth to that much if not most of it really has nothing to do with any overt attempts to lock in, it just happens as you use a set of tools for years. An organization could standardize on a distro of Linux and still suffer lock in issues if they ever switched distros,
The issue with apps is the biggest one. But apple experienced much the same problem ~ 10 years ago. People wouldn't touch an apple laptop/desktop because it lacked those critical apps. That's changed and apple has been doing quite well, particularly in the mobile market. I think with linux doing well in the mobile market we may see the same change occur -- cross your fingers. apple addresses the app problem the same way linux does and we do: run a VM. If an apple user can do it then anybody can.
The compatibility issue isn't so much a linux problem as it is a not-enough-users problem, which ties to the apps issue. If linux gains market share the programmers will oblige, nvidia will step up and start caring more and windows workstations will finally be able to read operating systems that don't run fat32 or NTFS (was this the problem? i know that it's a widespread issue, but linux can read NTFS and other filesystems just fine whereas microsoft can't). If linux is ~10% then windows will care, and more importantly so will everyone else.
Is it mature enough to get an influx of users today? No. If android steps into netbooks and laptops and we see a single linux distro take charge and garner enough attention (hopefully ubuntu) then it's possible. In fact, I think it's likely.
Even if you don't like where it is now you should still push for linux to do well. Rooting for the underdog in this case is like rooting for AMD v intel. you may think their processors are just too far behind intel, but if AMD gets enough support and money to be able to make a competitive product that gets treated well and embraced -- even if it's lacking 10-15% of the processor power -- it helps consumers in the end. The AMD product ultimately drives prices down across the board (as we've seen recently with GPU's and AMD/Nvidia) . with a larger linux not being bullied around Windows will have to start opening its doors and you won't be paying as much for office, or windows 8, and directx may even run on your android smartphone.
So whether you dislike it or won't recommend it... whatever. but for the sake of all of us, please support it. Ultimately it benefits us all.
Exactly.
Remember how pissed off users got when Microsoft added the ribbon to Office 2007? It made things easier. It was contextual. It was better. But they hated it...why? It's different. Users hate change. Same was true with many users in going from XP to Vista or 7. Slightly diffferent menus and a different feel. People hate change and hate being uncomfortable.
Now imagine those users going to a completely different OS and office suite...Picture your mom trying to use this desktop.
The operational costs in training, lost productivity, and helpdesk tickets alone will wipe out any "savings" on the "free" licenses.
bigpimpatl
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This is my point exactly. For a BUSINESS/CORPORATE environment Linux is not there. Nobody has to time to mess around with Linux when you have reports and presentations due in the next hour. And god forbid you need to use some 3rd party software to get your work done, have fun scouring repositories to find the right software (if it even exists).
Have fun with the new rollout! I remember several of mine. Some went better than others.
Yeah as you say its not really lock in. It's what you are used to an that just comes with well..history.
Also as a corporate, you use what everyone else is using for many key platforms. Nothing put off potential partners when they find none of your systems or software are familiar or will interface with theirs.
Costs money kids, yes it may come as a shock to some of you young ones, things actually cost money.
Will be funny but our organization used to be OS X only(including the bastard child called OS X Server deployed everywhere) Now the backend is linux and me myself I couldn't be happier. There's gained ground right there.
As for workstations I must agree. Not because of linux itself but because of commercial developers who are scared to develop for it.
In server and potentially "browsertainment" linux is on the rise.
cant happen here. Its not as simple as switching to linux and teaching the desk grunts how to use open office. There's countless custom apps that would be impractical to try to get them all to work the same in a linux environment. And then there's Exchange...
Runningflame570
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Why should Linux go out of its way to support a limited, legacy networking technology that is somehow even less secure than TCP/IP?
Ubuntu has been able to access domain shares for ages thanks to Samba (preinstalled on most or all popular distros), although admittedly they don't always do the best job making that functionality discoverable.
Do you typically do OS upgrades/migrations at your place of work without providing guidance on the software required for people to perform their job? Because if so I'd suggest you look into the mirror if you want to see where the problem is here.
Custom apps might be a problem for you, but Exchange has compatible alternatives available today and for the last several years. It's not that the software isn't out there to integrate and support Windows domains, it's that people generally aren't aware of it.
Erm happens all the time in corporate environments. Training is the last thing they worry about. The IT dept is prepared to do the training but the exec (who are all IT luddites anyway) dont want to foot the bill or take 20000+ users out of the loop for a few hours or a day.
Yes the training could raise productivity and ROI but its not somethnig you can show as a tangible solid benefit in the plan.
Bottom line - Execs dont use IT, their PAs do. So they dont git a shit about the average Joe User.
Besides everyone in the company is in the same boat...
4saken
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This last statement is LOL. seriously, yes there are exchange alternatives, but they are absolutely not comparable in terms of features, reliablity, ease of use, interoperability with all other software etc etc.
AD/Exchange/Sharepoint/Office/Lync/Voip/etc/etc all integrate virtually seamlessly. There is NOTHING in the open source world that remotely compares to be a viable replacement, or even be considered for more than a nanosecond as a worthy replacement. Large corporations need this type of integration these days, it would be a backwards step to event attempt this type of change.
Like ive said in my earlier posts, i work with Linux for our backend/server environment everyday. But there is absolutely no way i would put Linux in for our intranet infrastructure for our end users. Not only does Microsoft offer products that idiots can figure out, but they offer integration from every angle that our internal end-users need and demand.
Linux is incapable of offering this to the end-user.
InorganicMatter
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I was going to stay out of this thread until I saw this. LOL! No there's not. I spent last summer trying no less than half a dozen *nix-based "drop-in Exchange replacements" for my last employer. Nothing even comes close.
You desktop Linux guys need a dose of reality. It's a great server OS, and a pretty decent embedded device OS (VxWorks is better but costs money), but it's never going to succeed in the mainstream user market.
Runningflame570
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I wasn't speaking about training specifically as I'm well aware of how often that is neglected, I was speaking specifically about documentation pointing to which software applications should be used or to including the applications as part of the image.
If you are having people digging through repositories then you have failed in that respect.
PopeKevinI
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No, Windows survives because it is heavily used in business. You can't even switch most offices from MS Office to OpenOffice without workers screaming bloody murder...and I don't blame them, as good as it is OOo isn't nearly as easy to use or efficient as MSO. This is after personally two years of using OOo exclusively then switching to MSO2k7.
Many people know Windows because they started using it at work. Then when they bought a PC for home, they went with what they know. With Windows having the market penetration it has, of course it's the primary PC gaming platform. If Linux gained marketshare, it would get more attention from the game devs.
heatlesssun
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Don't know about that, tons of [H] members are Android phone owners, far more of them than Windows Phone owners.
PopeKevinI
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If free software projects want to be competitive with Microsoft, they need to pay attention to the "bashing" they get and take the criticisms to heart.
Here's an example: In Excel, I can CTRL+click multiple unconnected cells and modify their properties or paste a value into them at the same time. This has existed AT LEAST since Office 2000. Neither StarOffice nor OpenOffice could do this last time I tried, which was about a year ago (before LibreOffice came about). When I tried to raise the issue a few years ago and suggest it as a feature for OOo, I got the response of that I should code it myself if I wanted it so much.
If it's bashing to call a product inferior because it doesn't have the features I want, then yes I bash free software all the time. Because it doesn't do what I want it to, while Microsoft's competing product does.
(note: I use a lot of free software, while I only buy two things from MS: Windows and Office)