Linus Torvalds is Taking a Break from Linux Development

sirmonkey1985 said:
agree, screw being PC, if they're not going to listen privately then do whats best for everyone and publicly shame the hell out of them because it's obviously the only way shits going to get done.


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Well now, this is Interesting. Could there be a perfect example of how toxic behavior at the top has proliferated down to arrogance, intolerance, and unprofessionalism on the ground? Your spelling, grammar, and punctuation (and respect) here leave a lot to be desired. Do you feel like you, like Linus, have a hard time getting people to listen to you or respect you, even though you believe you are right?
 
tempertantrum said:
Well now, this is Interesting. Could there be a perfect example of how toxic behavior at the top has proliferated down to arrogance, intolerance, and unprofessionalism on the ground? Your spelling, grammar, and punctuation (and respect) here leave a lot to be desired. Do you feel like you, like Linus, have a hard time getting people to listen to you or respect you, even though you believe you are right?
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I was going to propose the same question. That style of leadership, if you'd like to call it that, is no longer a staple in industry. At least not in the multiple industries I've been part of in 20 years.

People like that have been run off the job. Rightfully so. People listen and comprehend so much better without the childish antics. They also work harder and recall more. That's a fact.
 
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Icon_Charlie said:
I don't give slack to ANY person who is an Arrogant ASS. He is one of them and in know for his holier than thou attitude. SuSe had an office in Oakland Calif in Jack London Square back in the early 2000's (remember I was a tech reporter ;) ) The people working for SuSe were way cool explaining things to a nub to me. I saw the great potential of Linux back then.

But I also saw the type of people that really did not give a shit about the average Joe wanting to make a change towards Linux. This mentality cost millions of dollars and years of wasted time.

Holier than thou attitude? I'm the wrong person to piss off. I shelved my report and like many others just said "Screw this noise I just want something that easily works" And the excuse of Engineers are "different"... Most of that is a god damned excuse so they can get away with things.

<snip>
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You know, you talk about his "holier than thou" attitude, but aren't you suffering from that same issue? Like the last sentence of what I'm quoting literally just reeks of arrogance (actually the whole post does...).

Frankly, as a person who has been through (a good) engineering school, is an engineer, and has seen many engineers... they are different (on average)... as is everyone. Like if you've ever seen a Myers–Briggs test result for an engineer or scientist, chances are they will test very differently from "normal" people (in double quotes because I don't believe anyone is normal). Their priorities and values are aligned on a completely different axis from yours. Depending on the extremity, they might be entirely cerebral. That is, they're so engrossed in what they do, they literally view the act of conversing as an annoyance (though not all of them express that in the same way). There are exceptions. People who are geniuses with well rounded personalities that can still accomplish a lot in their fields without cutting off society as much or at all (I have a friend like that as well)... but on average, the personality simply comes with the field and the type of work. We seek to contribute to society just as much as other people, but we're not exactly fans of conversing or maybe even other people at all. You could either view that as an idiosyncrasy or a flaw. That all depends on your perspective.

So just imagine this person, extremely passionate about his project, a thing that he might identify his self worth to society with, and other people just start doing changes that he vehemently cannot agree with. Now consider he's probably at least somewhat socially inept.

This is what happens. The most expedient solution he could think of, disregarding social propriety.

I won't say it's "right" or "wrong". This is simply how it is. You could ask these types to suddenly become much nicer... but it won't be sincere, and it will probably ruin their performance. Though admittedly they might be "happier", if they care to be... or they'll be miserable because they see no value in society and will find it boring.

I do know one thing. Being arrogant and "holier than thou" is an extremist attitude from both sides of the table, and will help no one, unless you're just prepared to barbarically kill people whose way of living you disagree with fundamentally. Then you won't help anyone but yourself, but at least the winner is always right in history so there's that (supposing you can get away from the law). Or you could try an ounce of tolerance. I was able to get people like that to slowly warm up to me by simply approaching slowly and methodically. Often it's worth it.
 
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StoleMyOwnCar said:
You know, you talk about his "holier than thou" attitude, but aren't you suffering from that same issue? Like the last sentence of what I'm quoting literally just reeks of arrogance (actually the whole post does...).

Frankly, as a person who has been through (a good) engineering school, is an engineer, and has seen many engineers... they are different (on average)... as is everyone. Like if you've ever seen a Myers–Briggs test result for an engineer or scientist, chances are they will test very differently from "normal" people (in double quotes because I don't believe anyone is normal). Their priorities and values are aligned on a completely different axis from yours. Depending on the extremity, they might be entirely cerebral. That is, they're so engrossed in what they do, they literally view the act of conversing as an annoyance (though not all of them express that in the same way). There are exceptions. People who are geniuses with well rounded personalities that can still accomplish a lot in their fields without cutting off society as much or at all (I have a friend like that as well)... but on average, the personality simply comes with the field and the type of work. We seek to contribute to society just as much as other people, but we're not exactly fans of conversing or maybe even other people at all. You could either view that as an idiosyncrasy or a flaw. That all depends on your perspective.

So just imagine this person, extremely passionate about his project, a thing that he might identify his self worth to society with, and other people just start doing changes that he vehemently cannot agree with. Now consider he's probably at least somewhat socially inept.

This is what happens. The most expedient solution he could think of, disregarding social propriety.

I won't say it's "right" or "wrong". This is simply how it is. You could ask these types to suddenly become much nicer... but it won't be sincere, and it will probably ruin their performance. Though admittedly they might be "happier", if they care to be... or they'll be miserable because they see no value in society and will find it boring.

I do know one thing. Being arrogant and "holier than thou" is an extremist attitude from both sides of the table, and will help no one, unless you're just prepared to barbarically kill people whose way of living you disagree with fundamentally. Then you won't help anyone but yourself, but at least the winner is always right in history so there's that (supposing you can get away from the law). Or you could try an ounce of tolerance. I was able to get people like that to slowly warm up to me by simply approaching slowly and methodically. Often it's worth it.
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I love how you start, but I think you're using some pop psychology. M-B tests have been shown to be... less than scientific, and often pigeonhole people into "identities" as though those things are static and immutable. It can be used as an excuse for poor behavior. Which is why I prefer more science-based analysis, like the extended DISC profile, that focuses on behaviors, and doesn't make presumptions about motives and motivations (which can be extremely complicated).

I like your compassion and ability to see things through another's eyes - that's a necessary skill for a good manager or leader to be successful, and have a healthy, positive, and productive work environment!
 
I think it's sad that, instead of everyone on here taking the opportunity to take a step back and realize that if someone as brilliant as Linus sees the error in his ways, maybe we can all see opportunities for personal growth, rather there's a lot of people on here doubling down on the destructive behaviors Linus was exhibiting. Really? You think the best way to run an organization is to throw a temper tantrum every time someone is wrong? There's no better way to get what you want besides burning bridges left and right? You can't see that even brilliant people can be wrong sometimes?

I personally think this is a great day for programming - yes, there's probably a higher rate of people somewhere on the autism spectrum in engineering, but that doesn't mean they get an excuse to be an asshole to everyone around them, nor that they can't learn, and that those behaviors are acceptable.
 
tempertantrum said:
I personally think this is a great day for programming - yes, there's probably a higher rate of people somewhere on the autism spectrum in engineering, but that doesn't mean they get an excuse to be an asshole to everyone around them, nor that they can't learn, and that those behaviors are acceptable.
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Since my first job at 15 years of age, considering that I've only had three jobs as an employee my whole life, my experience is that people talk to you like shit from top management down - The expectation is that we pay you so you're our paid slave, suck it up or there's the door.

While I know it's easy for people to assume that the issue must lie with myself, I can assure you I am a very devoted and skilled worker who works very hard. Which in itself was a large part of the problem, I work so hard that management create an expectation of me that becomes impossible to live up to 100% of the time and literally chuck tantrums when I push back. As a result of my experience, my opinion of employment is forever tainted and I will never work for an employer again after being an employee for a good 30+ years.

So while I agree that the attitude Linus had was bullshit and probably resulted in more harm than good regarding Linux and retaining talented coders and while I would like nothing more than to believe that owning up to his shortcomings will result in others reflecting on their own behavior and changing the way they treat those below them, I know deep down that the attitudes of individuals in modern society will never change as a result of this one person admitting to their mistakes. In fact I honestly believe that as time goes on people are treating one another much, much worse than they did 20 - 30 years ago.
 
tempertantrum said:
I love how you start, but I think you're using some pop psychology. M-B tests have been shown to be... less than scientific, and often pigeonhole people into "identities" as though those things are static and immutable. It can be used as an excuse for poor behavior. Which is why I prefer more science-based analysis, like the extended DISC profile, that focuses on behaviors, and doesn't make presumptions about motives and motivations (which can be extremely complicated).
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Oh, I know M-B isn't really the end all (or for that matter even good). There are a lot of personality tests out there, all evaluating different profiles. For what it's worth, I agree with you about M-B, it does pidgeonhole people into different identities. For instance, I regularly test both INFP and INTP. Just slight change in mood, and apparently I go between two continuums on that, which is supposedly impossible. When I take any personality test, I don't really look at my personality type, but just traits that it thinks I have. That's about as far as it goes. And even if we end there, at the end of the day, scientists and engineers will generally have the traits I outlined...

Personality tests are hard to take anyway. Especially if you start seeing patterns of questioning (which isn't hard for M-B; most M-B tests are horribly transparent, if they're free).
 
Lakados said:
The Linux community is famous for being Toxic and Hostile, if that is going to change it has to start at the top. Good for Linus for recognizing his own deficiencies and taking steps to correct them before an incident occurs.
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I am a long time member on phoronix and it is a nice and kindly community.

I think you really mean some linux kernel devs are toxic and hostile, but the same happens with other devs.
 
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tempertantrum said:
Turns out Linus was effectively held accountable for his abuse by the New Yorker

There, fixed
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The problem I see is that they try to make an argument that Linus's behavior 'kept women away from Linux development' while also quoting a professor who said she couldn't find any evidence that he was more abusive towards women in his commentary, just that he got a 'free pass for being a dick.'

Isn't it sexist to assume that women can't handle tough criticism? Anonymous peer-review of scientific publications can get downright savage and insulting when papers have serious problems... is that the reason there are fewer female scientists? Anyone who's been a manager, male or female, knows you quite literally have to be mean sometimes to get results.

Not trying to be an alt-right weirdo or anything, but it sounds to me like somebody has an agenda here.
 
DeathFromBelow said:
The problem I see is that they try to make an argument that Linus's behavior 'kept women away from Linux development' while also quoting a professor who said she couldn't find any evidence that he was more abusive towards women in his commentary, just that he got a 'free pass for being a dick.'

Isn't it sexist to assume that women can't handle tough criticism? Anonymous peer-review of scientific publications can get downright savage and insulting when papers have serious problems... is that the reason there are fewer female scientists? Anyone who's been a manager, male or female, knows you quite literally have to be mean sometimes to get results.

Not trying to be an alt-right weirdo or anything, but it sounds to me like somebody has an agenda here.
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No, it's sexist to assume that women should have to handle extra criticism. There's plenty of studies showing that the exact same behavior and performance in women in most professional environments, but especially in technical and leadership positions, are treated differently. The other half of that, "tough criticism" is being rather generous about completely toxic behaviors. It's perfectly possible to create a culture where criticism is given in a positive and professional, as opposed to given out of anger, contempt, and condescension. The results tend to be better, as well. "Why doesn't anyone listen to me [when I treat them like shit]?" There's plenty of classes on leadership, management, professionalism, communication, culture building, training, customer service, etc. etc. etc... If you think you have to be "mean" to get results, you are a shitty failure of a manager, who doesn't know how to work with people. Go learn.

Regarding peer review, yes it's vicious (I work and went to grad school at a Tier 1 Research University, one of the biggest in the world, so trust me, I know) but the truth is it IS biased against women, as study after study has shown. https://duckduckgo.com/?q=peer+review+bias+against+women&atb=v111-1_h&ia=web

As far as your dig on diversity and inclusion... well, I'm a diversity, equity, and inclusion advocate for our IT department, and let me tell you, it's bad. IT, in particular, benefits heavily from having the perspective and input of diversity in even recognizing issues, let alone creating solutions, providing support, etc. Not just Gender or sex, but race, SES, regional differences, accessibility, etc., all come into play. The lack of empathy is astounding, for a group of people who expect respect and to be listened to, they sure have a lot of troubles giving respect and listening to others.
 
tempertantrum said:
No, it's sexist to assume that women should have to handle extra criticism. There's plenty of studies showing that the exact same behavior and performance in women in most professional environments, but especially in technical and leadership positions, are treated differently.
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What extra criticism? As I stated, even the quoted professor stated that there's no evidence that Linus treated anyone differently based on their gender.

Regarding peer review, yes it's vicious (I work and went to grad school at a Tier 1 Research University, one of the biggest in the world, so trust me, I know) but the truth is it IS biased against women, as study after study has shown. https://duckduckgo.com/?q=peer+review+bias+against+women&atb=v111-1_h&ia=web
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Study after study has found inconsistent evidence of bias against women in publishing and peer review. There's a stronger case for bias in favor of previously published authors and prestigious universities in some fields (particularly medicine and psychology), but the claim that there's a systemic bias against women doesn't seem to be justified. You can find studies that claim video games cause violence or cell phones cause tumors. We both know that that alone doesn't constitute a solid argument for those opinions.

As far as your dig on diversity and inclusion...
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What dig?

This attitude is precisely what bothers me. You're talking to one of the more progressive types around here. I'm all for diversity, I understand the benefits of a diverse range of skills and opinions. I'm also a manager, and I understand that a lot of opinions are wrong. I've had to have some angry 'come to Jesus' moments with subordinates/other managers who were not performing/screwing my people over. Maybe Linus needs to work on his bedside manner a little, but I can completely understand having a shit fit when somebody commits code as stable that they obviously haven't even compiled to test. To try and turn that around and say he's 'abusive' for writing an angry email is the kind of nasty office politics that ruins organizations by allowing inept people to flourish. You may not like what he has to say, but he's clear about what's wrong and he's most certainly not actually 'threatening' anybody.
 
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