Line Conditioning question.

[Godmachine]

I recently purchased a Tripplite LC1800 Line Conditioner mainly because I'm living in a house that is over 100 years old and the wiring is an ungodly mess. Now I haven't had many power issues (knock on wood) since living here but I due notice that my window AC's compressor tends to cause my lights to "dip" in a bit each time it kicks on. My computer , my baby , is connected to the same socket and I'm wondering if it isn't being effected because I've been experiencing some weird resets that are not software/hardware related internally since I started using my AC (it's been very warm recently here and my room has awful ventilation).

My computer has a Corsair 1200 watt PSU and I pretty much over bought because I wanted headroom for the future and a really well made PSU that could handle some abuse power wise.

SO my question is , did I go overboard buying a power line conditioner? Will this power line conditioner stop the "dips" I'm experiencing and possible weird resets on my PC? The line conditioner is rated for 1800 watts / 15 amps and my AC only draws about 5.1 amps when the compressor is on so did I possibly not get a strong enough line conditioner? To give you an idea what I have hooked up I have that computer (i7 920 OC'd to 4Ghz , 2 GTX 670's , 8 hard drives , 2 SSD's , 8 fans and 1 optical drive) , 1 27 inch 1440p monitor , 1 40 inch LCD TV , 1 DVR , 1 schiit headphone amp , 1 trendnet network switch , 1 other computer (AMD quad core CPU , 1 AMD 6970 GPU , 1 Hard drive , 1 SSD and 3 fans with a Corsair 750 watt PSU) all plugged into one wall socket.

Thanks for any responses

 

[timta2]

That unit should get rid of any worries you have about the electrical supply to your computer and will work fine with that power supply. In the future you might value the extra capacity to have some other things connected that you want to protect.

As far as the "weird resets" go, you will know when you get it hooked up

 

[Godmachine]

That unit should get rid of any worries you have about the electrical supply to your computer and will work fine with that power supply. In the future you might value the extra capacity to have some other things connected that you want to protect.

As far as the "weird resets" go, you will know when you get it hooked up

So no issues with my AC and computer both on the Line Conditioner then? And thanks for the speedy response

 

[Godmachine]

Anyone? I don't wish to trip my breaker if connecting my window AC to my new Tripplite Line Condioner and computer into the same socket and cause possible data loss is a strong possibility.

 

[mhenley]

I don't recommend having the air conditioner hooked up to the line conditioner. The unit may only pull ~5.1A when the compressor is running, but it probably draws much more than than when it kicks on, and even then there is a good chance that it causes ripple. ACs handle brownouts quite a bit more reliably than a PC, so I would run only the computer based components and other sensitive equipment off the line conditioner, and plug the AC unit directly into the wall socket.

I assume it's not possible to run the AC off a separate circuit? Also, do you have plans to add a UPS for the computer? If you haven't thought about it, you might want to start. Line conditioners are great for ensuring clean power, but it won't help you in the event of a blackout.

BTW, that's a lot of equipment all plugged into one socket. I'd be worried about stressing the old wiring and causing a fire. If you don't want to fix the entire house, at least get a dedicated circuit run from the fuse/breaker box into that room with very thick cabling.

 

[Godmachine]

I don't recommend having the air conditioner hooked up to the line conditioner. The unit may only pull ~5.1A when the compressor is running, but it probably draws much more than than when it kicks on, and even then there is a good chance that it causes ripple. ACs handle brownouts quite a bit more reliably than a PC, so I would run only the computer based components and other sensitive equipment off the line conditioner, and plug the AC unit directly into the wall socket.

I assume it's not possible to run the AC off a separate circuit? Also, do you have plans to add a UPS for the computer? If you haven't thought about it, you might want to start. Line conditioners are great for ensuring clean power, but it won't help you in the event of a blackout.

BTW, that's a lot of equipment all plugged into one socket. I'd be worried about stressing the old wiring and causing a fire. If you don't want to fix the entire house, at least get a dedicated circuit run from the fuse/breaker box into that room with very thick cabling.

Thanks for the response. Ahh so keep the AC directly on the socket? No problem. I figured AC's were built for much more fault tolerance than a typical PSU for a computer. I'll be moving in a few months so it really isn't worth the hassle of running the AC off a separate circuit and or running a direct circuit from the breaker to my room unless its a simple matter of relocating to another plug in my room but even if I could is there a good quality extension cord I could buy that could handle the load from the AC over a 10 foot distance lets say without being a possible fire hazard to another socket in my room?

The owner upgraded the circuit for something like a 30 amp load on this side of the house I believe (he has an extensive collection of equipment that requires a 240v connection from the garage) so I believe its capable of handling a pretty hefty load (there were times were 3 window AC's , one of which is something like 15,000 BTU's and his equipment in the garage would be running at the same time and the house seemed to handle it fine other than the lights dimming when the compressors would kick on).

The line conditioner is more about piece of mind for my very expensive equipment and NOT replaceable data that I have stored across two computers. I figured perhaps it could maybe help smooth out the overall load and prevent anything bad from spiking in during storms. Anytime there is a storm around here the power gets a little jumpy , its not the worst I've experience (that was in Georgia) but the possibility of losing thousands of dollars worth of hardware is just not acceptable and a simple piece of mind investment is all I figured I would need. I've considered a UPS but honestly with the kind of load requirements I have it would have to be a UPS that doesn't come cheap and at the moment I can't really afford to drop $440+ on a high quality UPS that would only run my gear connected for about 5+ minutes (this is the UPS I would consider base line for my requirements http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0007OF0ZO/?tag=extension-kb-20). Down the line I could afford it but at the moment I need to save what I can for the move.

 

[Red Squirrel]

Personally I'd run a dedicated circuit for the AC, make it a 20 amp circuit, 12awg wire is not that much more expensive.

Also run a dedicated circuit for the PC. Heck, if the outlet can be in the same location just run a MWBC. Though I think you're better off with two completely separate circuits. Lights dimming when a big load kicks in is fairly normal though so this may or may not do anything, but it will give you piece of mind that you have two new and safe home runs. Technically your house has 2 circuits, which is the two legs of the centre tapped transformer. The breakers are only there to limit how much current can go on a set of items. They don't do anything special. So when a big load kicks in it will cause a small to each wire, it does not do anything else special like filter noise or anything.

 

[Godmachine]

Personally I'd run a dedicated circuit for the AC, make it a 20 amp circuit, 12awg wire is not that much more expensive.

Also run a dedicated circuit for the PC. Heck, if the outlet can be in the same location just run a MWBC. Though I think you're better off with two completely separate circuits. Lights dimming when a big load kicks in is fairly normal though so this may or may not do anything, but it will give you piece of mind that you have two new and safe home runs. Technically your house has 2 circuits, which is the two legs of the centre tapped transformer. The breakers are only there to limit how much current can go on a set of items. They don't do anything special. So when a big load kicks in it will cause a small to each wire, it does not do anything else special like filter noise or anything.

If I could I would but considering I won't be here much longer the investment of paying an electrician to come in and install what I need probably wouldn't make it worth it.

Since that is the case , what would you recommend personally that doesn't involve rewiring anything at the moment?

 

[Red Squirrel]

Since you're moving, just get or make a heavy duty (14 or 12 awg) extension cord for either the AC, and plug it to an outlet that is on the opposite power leg as the PC. To test this, plug into another outlet and then test the voltage between the hot prong of the extension and hot of the outlet the PC is plugged to. Should read 240. If it reads 0 then plug the extension somewhere else and repeat.

Though since you're moving I probably would not even worry about it and figure things out once you're in your new place.

Extension cords are normally frowned upon in a permanent installation especially if it's going throughout the room/hall etc but for a temp solution it will work fine. Just don't cheap out on the wire, it has to be the proper gauge. Personally I'd go 12 just because stranded wire may possibly have a lower amp rating. Don't quote me on this though.

If you don't have a UPS, then definitely get that first, bad idea to run a PC without one anyway. Might possibly solve the issue. Though I have seen even UPSes let such a brownout through as it does not reach the UPS's low voltage threshold, but still low enough that the computer PSU fails to produce adequate power. Laser printers are bad for causing issues like that.

 

[Godmachine]

*UPDATE*

Received my Line Conditioner today and there is a tag on it stating that Tripp Lite recommends that you give it an ENTIRE circuit in your home because it continuously draws 12 amp's / 1500 watts and can burst up to 15 amp's / 1800 watts.

Basically I can't use it because their are heavy appliances on both circuits in this house and all I'll do is trip the breaker and piss everyone off. So since I'm moving soon I'll just keep it in the box and set it up in my new home.

Word to the wise then , unless you can dedicate a circuit without any other heavy drawing appliances on it then you really can't use this product without tripping your breaker.

Thanks for the advice Red Squirrel , I'll go order a 12 gauge extension cord anyway so I can have the freedom to place this line conditioner where I want when I move.

I've noticed that A LOT of UPS setups do not have very good surge protection (some even listing around 330 Joules which is pathetic considering I can buy a power bar with many times that amount for basically nothing. I've heard recommendations that you should buy a quality surge protector to put between your wall and UPS so perhaps that is what I will do.

 

[Red Squirrel]

Wow did not realize they actively used up that much power. Would cost a lot just to have it plugged in!

A poor man's version of this would perhaps be a 12v PSU and a 12v inverter. I could be wrong but I think it would help against dips and such especially if you throw in a capacitor bank. Technically it's how a dual conversion UPS works but the PSU would have be be changed with a float charger and you add batteries.

 

[Godmachine]

Wow did not realize they actively used up that much power. Would cost a lot just to have it plugged in!

A poor man's version of this would perhaps be a 12v PSU and a 12v inverter. I could be wrong but I think it would help against dips and such especially if you throw in a capacitor bank. Technically it's how a dual conversion UPS works but the PSU would have be be changed with a float charger and you add batteries.

Yea I really can't believe it uses that much power just on an active basis. I can't even imagine how that would effect my power bill , it could be crazy high if you had that and an AC unit running full time in the summer.

I'll guess I'll have to save my money for a dual conversion UPS and a quality surge protector for now though.

Your idea interests me though , I'll look into it.

 

[ToddW2]

I have over 3 Tripp Lite line conditioners in use over the last 3 years and they do NOT draw constant steady power, especially not 12 amps. I`m thinking you misread something.

You also need to check the error correction % rate as the higher rated units correct a wider range than the lower. I learned this the hard way and ended up with a couple smaller ones as extras now as I wanted to be extra safe and upgraded.

I use them for my house power (grid) as well as generator power, and they work great.

We were specifically told when we purchased our Kenmore Gas range that the motherboards were known to go out in power outages or surges so I've always ran one on that and it's lasted over 5 years now through many many many many outages

 

[Godmachine]

I have over 3 Tripp Lite line conditioners in use over the last 3 years and they do NOT draw constant steady power, especially not 12 amps. I`m thinking you misread something.

You also need to check the error correction % rate as the higher rated units correct a wider range than the lower. I learned this the hard way and ended up with a couple smaller ones as extras now as I wanted to be extra safe and upgraded.

I use them for my house power (grid) as well as generator power, and they work great.

We were specifically told when we purchased our Kenmore Gas range that the motherboards were known to go out in power outages or surges so I've always ran one on that and it's lasted over 5 years now through many many many many outages

Comes with a tag connected directly to the Line Conditioner that says "Draws CONTINUOUS 12 amps / 1500 watts and burst's to 15 amps / 1800 watts" and I called Tripp Lite to confirm that it basically needs the circuit to itself otherwise it'll trip the breaker and I was told it does and NOT to connect it to the same socket as my AC and that it shouldn't even be on the same circuit as the AC since the AC draws a lot of amperage to simply start up. So I'm not trying to assert a false impression , its what I'm being told by both the product's warning label and by the support from Tripp Lite themselves.

Now unless the label and the support staff are both completely wrong I don't want to burn out my equipment testing out this issue. I could disconnect my AC and my other high draw gear off the circuit I'm using right now and see if it works but that would be a hassle at this point.

Here is a picture of the tag :



Hard to deny that they advise what I'm being told DIRECTLY.

 

[ToddW2]

Like I said you are reading it wrong, and probably the tech support didn't understand you.

It's RATED at 12amp continuous that doesn't mean it's going to draw 12amp continuous with no load on the other side.

I have a number of this in service for many years, trust me, I know for a fact it doesn't draw 12amps continuous. If they did I would be drawing 30-60 amps 24/7 for over 5 years now.
My electric bill is regularly in the $60/mo range and more than half that is from my electric dryer.

The unit is RATED at a full 15amp which COULD be the max of a standard home circuit (20amp possible). That simply means that if you have 15amp circuit you shouldn't plug anything else into it but this device, and then plug your other items into the line conditioner. There will be NO HARM done if you however trip a breaker, and have to go to the box and switch it back Trust me, I know. I've done this on accident too! I've also overloaded the tripp lite line conditioner and it works as it should and disables itself before overheating, and causing failure.

 

[Arcygenical]

Comes with a tag connected directly to the Line Conditioner that says "Draws CONTINUOUS 12 amps / 1500 watts and burst's to 15 amps / 1800 watts" .

No. The tag says it has a continuous current capacity of 12a. It can provide up to 15a in short burts, as the demand is required (such as a motor startup).

"Rated at" means it can safely provide. Wires are "rated at" an ampacity rating, with 12g wire "rated at" around 41a for chassis wiring, per conductor.

Your PSU is rated @ a wattage figure. Meaning the weakest component inside can provide up to that wattage.

The tripp lite would say "this unit consumes 12a continuous" not "this unit is rated at 12a continuous."

These units are typically very efficient, and can draw as little as 0w during a no-load condition. Thinking logically, thermodynamics prevents these units from drawing power. If the unit did draw, say, a constant 10a... That 1200w of power would have to go somewhere. If your PC was drawing 600w of power under load, of that continuously provided 1200w, 600w would be left over, and would be dumped to heat. That's just not possible.

And remember, joule ratings for surges are largely exaggerated. You don't need 15000 joules of protection. Many of those power bars offer a one time shunt-like protection, which after the first transient, will destroy the unit. A joule is a watt/second. 300 joules of surge protection means that the unit can safely dissipate (key word safely, aka without catestrophic failure) 300 w of power. A transient doesn't typically last a whole second, so like the mah value of a battery, the 100-200ms transient can be substantially stronger than 300w. No surge protector will protect against lightning damage, nor a voltage spike (say, one produces by the reconnection of a line post brownout) as these values are substantially higher than a few joules.

 

[Godmachine]

Like I said you are reading it wrong, and probably the tech support didn't understand you.

It's RATED at 12amp continuous that doesn't mean it's going to draw 12amp continuous with no load on the other side.

I have a number of this in service for many years, trust me, I know for a fact it doesn't draw 12amps continuous. If they did I would be drawing 30-60 amps 24/7 for over 5 years now.
My electric bill is regularly in the $60/mo range and more than half that is from my electric dryer.

The unit is RATED at a full 15amp which COULD be the max of a standard home circuit (20amp possible). That simply means that if you have 15amp circuit you shouldn't plug anything else into it but this device, and then plug your other items into the line conditioner. There will be NO HARM done if you however trip a breaker, and have to go to the box and switch it back Trust me, I know. I've done this on accident too! I've also overloaded the tripp lite line conditioner and it works as it should and disables itself before overheating, and causing failure.

Yea even so I can't dedicate a circuit to this one device right now because of load already on it , I'm moving soon (as I mentioned) and the cost of installing a dedicated circuit wouldn't even be worth it in a home with such old wiring. I would imagine the electrician would find other faults first that would have to be fixed and it would end up costing a bundle.

So even though it doesn't draw that current always (you have to admit the tag is a bit misleading and there tech support is obviously poorly informed) It would just be sitting around at the moment so I decided to return it and save my money for a dual line UPS proper. I'll put a quality surge protector in front of it just to make sure that isn't going to be an issue and call it done .

No. The tag says it has a continuous current capacity of 12a. It can provide up to 15a in short burts, as the demand is required (such as a motor startup).

"Rated at" means it can safely provide. Wires are "rated at" an ampacity rating, with 12g wire "rated at" around 41a for chassis wiring, per conductor.

Your PSU is rated @ a wattage figure. Meaning the weakest component inside can provide up to that wattage.

The tripp lite would say "this unit consumes 12a continuous" not "this unit is rated at 12a continuous."

These units are typically very efficient, and can draw as little as 0w during a no-load condition. Thinking logically, thermodynamics prevents these units from drawing power. If the unit did draw, say, a constant 10a... That 1200w of power would have to go somewhere. If your PC was drawing 600w of power under load, of that continuously provided 1200w, 600w would be left over, and would be dumped to heat. That's just not possible.

And remember, joule ratings for surges are largely exaggerated. You don't need 15000 joules of protection. Many of those power bars offer a one time shunt-like protection, which after the first transient, will destroy the unit. A joule is a watt/second. 300 joules of surge protection means that the unit can safely dissipate (key word safely, aka without catestrophic failure) 300 w of power. A transient doesn't typically last a whole second, so like the mah value of a battery, the 100-200ms transient can be substantially stronger than 300w. No surge protector will protect against lightning damage, nor a voltage spike (say, one produces by the reconnection of a line post brownout) as these values are substantially higher than a few joules.

Thank you for the information. Good to know for the future. It would have helped if Tripp Lite's tech support was better trained (thank god for these [H]ardForums) for these kinds of questions so its a lesson learned.

 

[ToddW2]

You don't need a dedicated circuit they just advise it if you plan to use it to full capacity because most homes are 15amp circuits.

You could run a fridge and an AC and a heater from the same unit (if it was rated for such capacity/startup load) just not run them all at once, and each of those would suggest a dedicated circuit it doesn't mean you can't share a circuit as long as you don't run them all at once

 

[Godmachine]

You don't need a dedicated circuit they just advise it if you plan to use it to full capacity because most homes are 15amp circuits.

You could run a fridge and an AC and a heater from the same unit (if it was rated for such capacity/startup load) just not run them all at once, and each of those would suggest a dedicated circuit it doesn't mean you can't share a circuit as long as you don't run them all at once

I know but again as I've stated previously , this is a 100 year old house (actually possibly older) and its wiring is pre-1950's. I do not wish to stress it more right now considering I'm leaving it soon. Last thing I want is to push the circuitry right before I move out and cause some kind of serious problem that I'll have to pay for.

So while I'm sure this is an excellent product , I do not feel comfortable using it in this house when I have no intention of staying longer than a month or so extra.

However its good to know that if in the future I want to get one again I'll know exactly how to use it

 

[larrymoencurly]

A line conditioner shouldn't be used to cover up bad wiring.

I'd plug a high power electrical device, like a hair dryer, into a Kill-A-Watt and plug that into each electrical outlet to check for excessive voltage droop, which could indicate a bad wiring connection. Where I used to live, a couple of outlets would drop 10-30 volts when tested this way because of loose push-in wire terminals or loose sockets.

 

[Red Squirrel]

Push ins are the worse, from what I've heard. I've never used them myself or seen them used though, but I've never heard anything good from them. May actually be worth going around and checking to see if pushins are being used. One that's going bad would add resistance on the rest of the outlet string.

 

[ToddW2]

I give up

 

[Godmachine]

I give up

I appreciate the advice though So it wasn't a waste of time.

 

[ccityinstaller]

I appreciate the advice though So it wasn't a waste of time.

Want some advice from an EET, who has a cousin that is a full P.E. specializing in construction? Plug it in, and be done with it. You aren't going to have any problems, especially something you would have to "pay" for..If the house isn't up to NEC code, then that is the owner's fault, plain and simple.