Leopard Looks Like …Vista

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ZDNet columnist Mary Jo Foley says that Leopard looks a lot like Vista and goes on to compare Apples latest OS to Windows Vista. Ugh oh, I feel a huge flame fest coming on.

But if you’ve seen Vista, there’s no way you could help but compare the feature-complete Leopard beta Jobs showcased with Windows Vista. And — surprise — Vista looked pretty darn up-to-date in comparison.
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I beg to differ.

Leopard looks more like Project Looking Glass

For that matter, so does Vista.
 
Looks very similar indeed. Sadly, Vista adds nothing useful over XP. If only I could actually work in OS X, if the fundamental shortcuts keys (and other interface nuances weren't so different from XP) I'd switch to using OS X on my work box in a heart beat.

Beautiful OS... too difficult to learn or configure the damn thing to operate in a manner I'm familiar with (been using in XP/2k/98/3.1 for 15 years). Probably sounds silly, but when i have to learn another keyboard "layout" (copy/paste, home, shift delete.. very basic things, that I use 100x a day). Would be nice if OS X had a check box "XP user mode"... kinda like Word did for Word Perfect (before Word killed WP off).

OS X remains my media center box (mac mini) OS of choice. We'll likely upgrade the wife's MacBook to Leopard. XP for my productivity/game machine... no matter how "pretty" either of those other OSes are.
 
Sure they look similar.. that's not the point of an os though. Eye candy is great and all, but functionality and stability are the meat of an os.
 
An OS that has been out for 5 months better look pretty damn up to date.

Leopard does look nice, but it isn't groundbreaking and neither was Vista.
 
I find Apple users to be overly defensive while commonly leaning on very bad arguements to "defend" their precious company. The really funny part is most of them who try to argue OS's with me (when I don't even care) own ZERO shares of stock in Apple, thus have ZERO stake in the companies success or failure.

Nobody cares who "stole" what from who. Every car has tires...just as every OS should have search features, etc. I'm not sure why it matters. If you like OSX...use it! You don't need a Windows users permission. And if you like Vista, Linux or even OS/2, use it...it's ok...you don't need permission, nor do you need to defend your choice!

I read some of the stupid comments from the Apple "fanboi's" on the zdnet site, they are mostly rude and beyond stupid. If you truly cared about Apple, tell them to shut up, becaues they seriously make the company look like the bratty little brother who is so completely beyond jealous of his older brothers success that they resort to personal and very stupid attacks against a journalist...without even bothering to read the entire story, or leaving entire sections of it out of their collective memoies.

Much of the same happened with the "fanboi" invasion after they read the 30 days of OSx on this website...their counter arguements would ignore half of what was said in the article.
 
The only real comment I have respond to the article is that it makes a large number statements that weren't researched, and two that are actually completely false.

And then it takes one more fact (Google trying to get the Department of Justice to rule the integrated Search as being anti-competitive). Google actually specifically named Microsoft- and more specifically Windows Vista- on this one.

Now, I'm a fan boy to "Doing research before posting claims". Here's my "fan boy response":

1. I don't see a lot of confusing translucent windows everywhere, just a lot of gray. I personally think both Window Managers were poorly thought out.
2. First, Coverflow has been in iTunes and iPhoto for a long time. Second, have you ever used Flip3D?
3. Wait, Vista thumbnails aren't static and actually play video? You can see the contents of the file in it's icon? The first idea was stolen from Sony. The second has been a part of KDE for a very long time (and probably even gnome).
4. The implication is that 32-bit applications won't work. This also means you weren't paying attention to the speech. You didn't have many lectures in college, did you?
5. The comparison technology in Vista would be called XAML, and it's a part of the Windows Software Development Kit. It showed promise, but it's already been established that Vista has some graphical performance issues. Also, writing everything as XML gets tedious with the tools Microsoft has.
6. Congratulations, you have made a correct logical assumption. This is your first one in this article. Better watch out, they might ban you from 4-chan.
7. After the Desktop Cube, the idea of having multiple spaces (which has been in most linux/unix window managers for years now) just isn't all that great.
8. Where were you when 10.4 came out again? Or even when that add-on for 10.3 was released?
9. Who uses either iChat or Meeting Space? Seriously? AdiumX, Pidgin, and Trillian are where IM is going. Maybe iChat/MeetincSpace will appeal to our younger (naive) myspace users.
10. When's the last time you used Vista's backup? Write another article about that particular process, then try back. Even Microsoft admitted that it's backup system is sub-par- that's what Windows Home Server is all about.

I'm done.
 
alphaone said:
Sure they look similar.. that's not the point of an os though. Eye candy is great and all, but functionality and stability are the meat of an os.
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Eye-candy and shiny objects ARE the meat and potatoes of Apple...
 
haysupimark said:
5. The comparison technology in Vista would be called XAML, and it's a part of the Windows Software Development Kit. It showed promise, but it's already been established that Vista has some graphical performance issues. Also, writing everything as XML gets tedious with the tools Microsoft has.
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What issues with graphical performance?

10. When's the last time you used Vista's backup? Write another article about that particular process, then try back. Even Microsoft admitted that it's backup system is sub-par- that's what Windows Home Server is all about.
Click to expand...

Where did MS admit that their backup system is sub-par? How about some links on these claims?
 
haysupimark said:
1. I don't see a lot of confusing translucent windows everywhere, just a lot of gray. I personally think both Window Managers were poorly thought out.
2. First, Coverflow has been in iTunes and iPhoto for a long time. Second, have you ever used Flip3D?
3. Wait, Vista thumbnails aren't static and actually play video? You can see the contents of the file in it's icon? The first idea was stolen from Sony. The second has been a part of KDE for a very long time (and probably even gnome).
4. The implication is that 32-bit applications won't work. This also means you weren't paying attention to the speech. You didn't have many lectures in college, did you?
5. The comparison technology in Vista would be called XAML, and it's a part of the Windows Software Development Kit. It showed promise, but it's already been established that Vista has some graphical performance issues. Also, writing everything as XML gets tedious with the tools Microsoft has.
6. Congratulations, you have made a correct logical assumption. This is your first one in this article. Better watch out, they might ban you from 4-chan.
7. After the Desktop Cube, the idea of having multiple spaces (which has been in most linux/unix window managers for years now) just isn't all that great.
8. Where were you when 10.4 came out again? Or even when that add-on for 10.3 was released?
9. Who uses either iChat or Meeting Space? Seriously? AdiumX, Pidgin, and Trillian are where IM is going. Maybe iChat/MeetincSpace will appeal to our younger (naive) myspace users.
10. When's the last time you used Vista's backup? Write another article about that particular process, then try back. Even Microsoft admitted that it's backup system is sub-par- that's what Windows Home Server is all about.
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1) I feel that both windows managers work fine. I'm sure they could both be better, so we can agree here.

2) Since you asked, yes, I use flip 3d all the time...is it necessary? No. But neither is eating a thick juicy steak, but I enjoy those, too.

3) Yes, you can see the contents of the file in the icon. I know, because I'm looking right now.

4) Not to defend her or anything, but seriously, she missed something and made an error. Maybe we should boil her in oil! Heaven forbid you miss something in a 500 hour Steve Jobs speech that sounds identical to every speech he's given since 1984! Some of us aren't "fanboi's", and we don't hang on every word the Lord Steve Jobs says...some of us have actual opinions of our own.

5) XML is tedious, agreed, but so are a lot of programming languages. Graphical performance issues in Vista are driver related, not OS or hardware related. The drivers are getting better by the day. I know this from personal experience. Example: My first set of Nvidia drivers scored me 250 points less on 3dmark. 250 is a lot, by the way.

6) Shes not making an assumption with this, but stating a fact. It would be beyond the realm of stupid to assume everyone that downloaded bootcamp did so to play solitare.

7) Agreed. Too much to manage.

8) Dashboard, widgets, sidebar, gadgets...nothing more than refined versions of active desktop, which was around in the 90's.

9) Agreed again.

10) Windows backup works fine and it's not hard to use. Granted, I disable most of the Microsoft default processes in Vista because I know what I'm doing, however, the backup suite worked fine when I used it. Complete image backup sitting right here, now it's all disabled becuse it's no longer necessary.
 
I wish they would concentrate on performance and stability. They can get rid of all the useless crap that add-ons do better a lot of the time anyway. Give me a modern 2000 Pro and I'll be happy.
 
haysupimark said:
10. When's the last time you used Vista's backup? Write another article about that particular process, then try back. Even Microsoft admitted that it's backup system is sub-par- that's what Windows Home Server is all about.
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Vista Backup is actually pretty good, unfortunately its only fully featured on Ultimate and Enterprise.
 
Although I (sometimes) try hard not to make fun of apple, the "new" spaces feature is really quite hilarious. What were they thinking? "Ooh if we give this old concept a new artsy anme, people will wonder how they ever lived without it" Hmm, well, as has been pointed out it has been around for at least a decade, possibly even two. Havign several workspaces IS amazingly useful, but I wish they would stop calling it revolutionary.
 
Well yeah, they both have transparency effects...but Leopard looks like iTunes and Vista looks like Vista. I would tell that author to cry about it.
 
shadowwyvern said:
Although I (sometimes) try hard not to make fun of apple, the "new" spaces feature is really quite hilarious. What were they thinking? "Ooh if we give this old concept a new artsy anme, people will wonder how they ever lived without it" Hmm, well, as has been pointed out it has been around for at least a decade, possibly even two. Havign several workspaces IS amazingly useful, but I wish they would stop calling it revolutionary.
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I don't think they called it revolutionary, but it sure as hell is when you're looking specifically at OS X
 
BlueF said:
Sadly, Vista adds nothing useful over XP.
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Blanket statements like this disappoint me, especially on a site like [H]ard. Just because you, in the limited time you have used Vista, have not found anything particularly useful in the hundreds, if not thousands of changes they have made does not mean that lots of other Vista users haven't. If you need any proof simply look through some of the Vista threads on here and you will find plenty of users that have found lots of useful changes. This is really a borderline flamebait, something I expect from Apple fanboys, not [H]ardOCP'ers.
 
AaronPSU79 said:
Blanket statements like this disappoint me, especially on a site like [H]ard. Just because you, in the limited time you have used Vista, have not found anything particularly useful in the hundreds, if not thousands of changes they have made does not mean that lots of other Vista users haven't. If you need any proof simply look through some of the Vista threads on here and you will find plenty of users that have found lots of useful changes. This is really a borderline flamebait, something I expect from Apple fanboys, not [H]ardOCP'ers.
Click to expand...

QFT. The more I use Vista the more I find I like about it, bling and all. I still dual boot, but my forays into XP are fewer and fewer, mainly to run some games due to the well documented perf hit DX9 takes on Vista.
 
Maybe I'm being a bit grouchy today, having worked on no less than 10 Dell's today, but I have to wonder: what is the big woopdy-doo deal over this!? :confused:
 
haysupimark said:
10. When's the last time you used Vista's backup? Write another article about that particular process, then try back. Even Microsoft admitted that it's backup system is sub-par- that's what Windows Home Server is all about.
Click to expand...

Neither Time Machine nor Volume Shadow Copy (present in Windows 2003 Server in... 2003 and now exposed in Vista as Previous Versions) is a "backup program".

And functionally, they are almost the same.
 
ir0nw0lf said:
Maybe I'm being a bit grouchy today, having worked on no less than 10 Dell's today, but I have to wonder: what is the big woopdy-doo deal over this!? :confused:
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This is the big deal:

466f26a0ad339146716244.jpg


Apple has been saying for a long time that MS copies everything they do. Now suddenly that is all reversed.

 
I just don't buy this.

So, Apple folks: What am I missing? I’m not trying to pull a Dvorak here and use this blog post for click bait.
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I disagree, I think she is using the list as bait. Look at these:

6. Boot Camp. You can run Vista on your Mac. Apple showed Vista running Solitaire in its WWDC demo. But I bet those downloading the 2.5 million copies of Boot Camp available since last year are running a lot of other Windows business apps and games.

7. Spaces: A feature allowing users to group applications into separate spaces. I haven’t seen anything like in in Vista, but the audience didn’t seem overly impressed by it.

8. Dashboard with widgets. Isn’t this like the Vista Sidebar with gadgets?
Click to expand...
Boot camp is copying Vista... how? They can't even be compared. Maybe if Apple was offering virtualization for any OS and MS did this already in Vista... otherwise, no.

Dashboard with widgets is copying windows? Again, how...? If memory serves me correctly - and I might be wrong - but Apple "took" widgets from konfabulator and that spawned a craze of other similar items. So to say Apple stole this from Windows is just saying so to be inflammatory. I'm not saying Apple or MS or anyone is "right," just that Mary Jo Foley is wrong.
 
AaronPSU79 said:
Blanket statements like this disappoint me, especially on a site like [H]ard. Just because you, in the limited time you have used Vista, have not found anything particularly useful in the hundreds, if not thousands of changes they have made does not mean that lots of other Vista users haven't. If you need any proof simply look through some of the Vista threads on here and you will find plenty of users that have found lots of useful changes. This is really a borderline flamebait, something I expect from Apple fanboys, not [H]ardOCP'ers.
Click to expand...

Really? I didn't mean to be controversial or overly critical of Vista... I'm honest and terribly unimpressed (you could say, disappointed) in Vista.

I've attempted to use Vista ever since it was "available" (thank you Torrent networks). On numerous occasions I've installed the currently available build, using it for as long as I could as my primary OS. Sadly, this has rarely latest more than a few days (weeks at best). In fact, I broke down and ordered a retail copy, for testing purposes a few weeks back. I've actually just deleted the Vista partition on my primary box, a few days ago, in favor of 10GB . Now, I still have it installed on a tech-tester system, but as is, I have absolutely no desire/reason to use Vista, as my work or play OS, as it sits. Coming from a SysAdmin of a 250 node (read, XP box) network, hopefully this would mean something.

When it comes right down to it, I simply don't see the value added in Vista. UAC is the only feature I would consider useful in a corporate environment. From a home/power user standpoint, UAC is a royal pain in the ass.

Other than that single feature (UAC), I can't see myself asking for $40k+ to upgrade our environment to Vista. Where as every previous release of Windows (excepting ME, which shouldn't ever really be mentions) has been a marked improvement over the previous version, in terms of functionality, user interface, and in the most important aspects, stability and performance... I can't say the same for Vista.

Perhaps I should do more research on these feature Vista offers?
 
BlueF said:
Other than that single feature (UAC), I can't see myself asking for $40k+ to upgrade our environment to Vista. Where as every previous release of Windows (excepting ME, which shouldn't ever really be mentions) has been a marked improvement over the previous version, in terms of functionality, user interface, and in the most important aspects, stability and performance... I can't say the same for Vista.

Perhaps I should do more research on these feature Vista offers?
Click to expand...

To tell you the truth, I'd be more inclined to switch my network over to OS X...

Of course, this isn't likely to happen (privately owned hospital), but I no longer steer users away from Mac/Apple, either professionally or for friends/home users. Sure, the price penalty is huge for apple... if only OS X ran MS SQL / Access, Internet Explorer, and in some small way assisted Windows familiar users (keyboard shortcuts, text editing, KB layout)...

Geeze!! Call me an apple fain boi or a mis-informed SysAdmin all you like (I don't think either would be true).... I've been nothing but impressed with the mac mini (been using it as a Media Center box for 6+ months) and my wife happily gave up her dell notebook in favor of a MacBook when she started Med School last year.
 
AaronPSU79 said:
Blanket statements like this disappoint me, especially on a site like [H]ard. Just because you, in the limited time you have used Vista, have not found anything particularly useful in the hundreds, if not thousands of changes they have made does not mean that lots of other Vista users haven't. If you need any proof simply look through some of the Vista threads on here and you will find plenty of users that have found lots of useful changes. This is really a borderline flamebait, something I expect from Apple fanboys, not [H]ardOCP'ers.
Click to expand...

Why should it disappoint you? Why say in several sentences when one sentence will suffice. I don't see your post as flamebait but it's something I'd expect from ME Redux users. That was flamebait. :D
 
The thing is that at this point in time no one on both ends can think up of something original to incorporate into their next-gen OS. MS and Apple aren't exceptions to this concept, as are Sony, IBM, Acer, Linux kernels, eVGA, Samsung, the list goes on and on. This isn't a really surprising concept, it's been going on for years now. Lets cut this short and not turn this post into another flame war like it's always been; Vista users vs. XP users vs. Apple users.
 
This is like a good presidential election... Seriously, who cares who did it first? Unless you're an total idiot, you are going to use good ideas. Contrary to popular beliefs on both sides, Microsoft/Apple don't hire idiots, on purpose at least. However the marketing team at Apple might be an exception... If something like 90% of the computer users are Microsoft users, you don't go and call them idiots and hope they switch over.

Also, if you created something ingenious first, then you better patent it. If you didn't/couldn't/wouldn't then you are the idiot, and stfu when someone copies it. If I could patent fire right now, I sure as hell will. It's like saying "Oh look, Hardocp has a forum, they copied [insert one of million other website]."

Selective imitation is what humans do, it's instinct.
 
ok, lets look at this the other way...with the thought in mind that MS copied Apple...

1. New Vista desktop, not a whole lot different than Apples Aqua and Dock (see my point already?)

2. New "Instant Search" in Vista, very similar to spotlight added in OS X Tiger (10.4)

3. Live file previews (that aren't really live.) just like the file previews in 10.4? (at least in the column viewing mode)

4. (Ok, This is just a fucking moronic statement on her part. If she is gonna write an article, at least confirm the damn facts (even if she was there! she obviously missed, or left out, a VERY important piece here)) There is no comparison here, 64-bit is the future, and EVERYONE is moving there. Apple just did it in one big leap. No one copied anyone...

5. (no real equivalent here, plus core animation has been around since 10.4 was released, 10.5 just uses it ALOT more)

6. You can't run OS X on your PC! yay! Something MS CAN'T copy

7. Spaces: a bunch of OSs have it..yay....not really, no big deal. Apple just applied it better. (from what I've seen) Vista doesn't really have an equivalent, so I don't see why it's in her article about Leopard copying Vista? Idiot...

8. Vista's sidebar with gadgets: Isn't this like OS X TIGER'S Dashboard with widgets? you know tiger...the one that came out way before Vista?

9. Yay for iChat? seriously this is no big deal...

10. Time machine backup: I don't believe windows has anything like this. Nothing as simple, or as elegant. Sure they have their backup program, but to find one file in one directory you have to go back into all your backups, and find that one single one. Which you can do in mere seconds in Time machine. Apple wins this one hands down.

More on quick look:
In Vista, can you find a movie file in explorer (or w/e now) preview the movie IN EXPLORER, and even have the option to make it full screen, without opening WMP? same for stuff such as word docs, or PDFs, can you go through the whole thing without opening the respective program? Even 10.4 allows you to preview movies and text docs in the column view.

More on Finder/Coverflow:
Coverflow has been around for years. It was originally a 3rd party app to browse your iTunes music, then in iTunes 7 it was added directly into iTunes by Apple. Now They have expanded it to the finder as well (quite well IMO). Oh, and you can even preview docs, movies, PDFs, etc right inside coverflow. Again, coverflow was 3rd party (freeware) application, around before Vista's Flip3d was introduced, and was bought by Apple.

So my point is, in case you missed it: The argument can go both ways, and actually is stronger towards MS copying Apple. Also, that lady needs to be bitch slapped because she has almost NO CLUE what she is talking about.

Cliffs:
1. Writer is an idiot
2. Argument goes both ways
3. Nobody Copied anybody.
4. STFU
5. ???
6. Profit
 
4b5eN+EE said:
lol. this is the first I've heard of her. :eek: :p
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Lucky you. She was polluting industry magazines way back in the late 80s IIRC (very early 90s at the latest).

Many of the ZDNet/ex-ZDNet clowns you see online came from the same magazines. :barf: The good writers seem to have disappeared, which is a shame.
 
I love reading these XP/Vista/Apple hate threads. They are always entertaining. The one thing the two newest ones have in common is they are no great departure from their previous versions.
 
hl3395 said:
Selective imitation is what humans do, it's instinct.
Click to expand...

I trade mark (imitate) the above quote.

Oh, snap! :p

LOL @ the whole idea behind this thread. I do not use Operating Systems, I use software that runs on top. I am gonna have to go with whatever OS has the most games/ most software written to run on top.

I probally will go with Vista basic just for the freaking requirement to obtain Dx10... once some games come out.
 
Heh, if you ask me, Vista is a ripped off a bunch of ideas from tiger, never mind leopard. I personally like OSX. It's just not for gaming. That's still Billies world for sure.
 
Adisharr said:
I wish they would concentrate on performance and stability. They can get rid of all the useless crap that add-ons do better a lot of the time anyway. Give me a modern 2000 Pro and I'll be happy.
Click to expand...

QFT. Well the order of the day is copy others and eye candy
 
Apple is a marketing company more than anything, as much as Jobs wants to claim that they are a software company I can't help but laugh. To be honest I could care less these days. I do nearly all my work these days in Ubuntu, which is actually run in VMware which is installed on Windows Vista. Performance is high enough and memory cheap enough to pull this off without a hitch, and why you ask? Well, I like to game and booting into Vista is a pain I just simply don't have to deal with anymore. I can minimize Ubuntu and with my 4GB of memory (which only cost me $150) I can play any game I want with zero issues and no need to reboot.... its wonderful!

Ironically I can't help but feel that within the next five years Apple will be releasing OSs for your typical PC and they will no longer be in the hardware business. As every day goes by they push more and more products out onto the Windows space. They've had to release their other products for Windows users, they've made Boot Camp because they understand that no matter what there are many people who need Windows. While I certainly don't think Windows is going to hold its fleshy hands around the market like it does today forever, I just can't shrug off the feeling that besides Mac worshipers people really could care less. You hear about switchers when it comes to Mac's, but does the market share actually show any type of swing? It doesn't, and at the end of the day that's really all that matters.
 
give this woman some space, she has a point.

Everything now is copy copy copy, someone comes up with something new, competitiors copy it.

Read back 6 months headlines, "Vista Copies Mac OS"

makes sense if they are to woo over windows users they'll wan't similar utilities
 
I don't think the point of the article was to point out who copied who. The headline was flamebait really. She just thought it was strange that the crowd was "Oohing and Aahing" as if they have never seen those things before when they are similar to features that are already in Vista. She probably thought that more revolutionary features would be more deserving of such a response and that the guys there probably did not know much about Vista for them to get some impressed. Some people are just different I guess. Personally, it would take something really impressive to get me to go gaga over an operating system.
 
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