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LED vs CCFL

C

cerbul

Limp Gawd
Joined
May 14, 2012
Messages
242
Probably this has been discussed all over the internet so far, but what I find really strange is that some ppl find led annoying while I saw that even more people find CCFL annoying.

I have in my front, Asus PA246q and Samsung S24A350H to compare.

It is clearly that something related to the white color, makes me much more comfortable with the CCFL one, while when I look to the LED one I see the white so dark, that I feel like at the end of the day when the darkness of the night is falling and you can hardly distinguish things.

Is it something normal? Is the difference between IPS LED and TN LED that big so that my problem is related to the fact that is a TN monitor, or to the fact that is a LED monitor.
I am literally unable to decide if the LED lighting is causing my eye strain, the TN technology or S24A350H is simply a very poor contrast ratio monitor.

Anyone can give me some advice with this?

I am afraid now to give a chance to DELL U2412M cause is LED. The graininess of the coating doesn't seem to bother me, but I think that something is causing the whites of the LED to be way too dark compared to the amount of light coming off the screen, making it feel like it doesn't have enough contrast. Also Benq GW2450HM is LED, cutting down the options for me.
I need to return this Asus anyway due to defects and I would like a monitor with a coating that is less hard, a bit more contrast (though I don't think I need more contrast), and a bit less ghosting.

Anyone can give any idea or some video, or some reading to do that would actually help me decide if the cause of my strain is the LED white color or something else.
One thing that would really help is to see a side by side comparing of a DELL U2410 and Dell U2412M.

One other idea about the difference between LED and CCFL, is that I feel that the amount of light coming through the screen towards my eyes is more constant on the CCFL, while is very image related on the LED. Ofc, I might be totally wrong, but I would really like to find any information that would confirm or that would make my assumptions wrong.
Thank You.
 
do you have the same issue with the s24a350h vs the pa246q?
i'm pretty sure the problem is the ag coating

I spend 2 yrs on an asus ms238h, i was truly happy, it's one of the first LED LCD available. one of the best investment I made, my eyes were fine, no eye strain.
Now I'm on 3x 2412m. after 7 mths I'm pretty sure the problem is the ag coating. not the led. or maybe it has to do with the ips glow.

I also have the lg ips231p, same issues. I regret selling my ms238h now =(

My suggestion, try a higher quality tn panel, maybe even glossy if that doesnt bother you, see if that solves your issue.
i'm currently in the market for 3x 24 inch right now. just cant decide which to get. or maybe just 1x 27, but thats also very limited since i'd prefer 1920x1200 or 2560x1440
 
Asus PA246Q seems alright, I can live with it.
However S24A350H seems to be really causing problems. I did notice that the coating on this monitor is making the whites seem to sparkle at me, so might be the cause of the issue, but I can't find any decent option for 24 inches glossy, except for Apple Cinema which I can't afford. I am also avoiding getting a 27 inch, and 1920x1080 for 27 inches I will never buy.
 
yes. sparkles, especially on whites/grey. when you look away from the monitors towards a wall, all you see is sparkles right?
you're in the same boat as me my friend. let me know if you find any decent monitors, I am interested in whatever you have to offer =)
I looking for ones with a pivot stand too, which makes it even harder. 27' i'll do without pivot stand, since i dont think there are that many to begin with.
 
@cerbul

How is the coating on the S24A350H? It's a TN panel, right? So I'd assume it would be a standard AG coating, while the PA246Q, being IPS, would be heavier. At least normally that seems how it goes.

If that is in fact the case, then it does seem your issue is with LED vs CCFL, or contrast levels, not the coating as much.


As for options, umm... you'd want CCFL with good contrast, and 24"? You may have to dip into the used market for a 24" VA using CCFL. Or go with a very expensive Eizo.

Or get the Benq GW2450HM from Amazon or some place with a no hassle return policy.
 
I saw in a store an LG 236V connected on VGA, and I can almost confirm that there isn't much of a difference between the white on an IPS LED and TN LED. However, I can't be 100% certain, as it might also be the coating making it worse. Probably, from what I saw, I can't use LED with coating. That is the best idea I could come with.

Does the Benq GW2450HM use the same coating as S24A350H? Or is it more glossy?

I would like a lighter coating then Dell, but can't risk anymore with the coating used on Samsung. So I would pretty much need a 3rd type of coating.

There is one panel that I am really tempted with, and that is M240HW02 V5.
It is a CCFL panel, MVA, High Color Gammut, but I can't really find information like response time or coating used, as panelook website doesn't give this information. Does anyone know what company and when will use this panel to make a screen? If this screen has normal pixel structure, less or equal to 4 ms and a different coating then the one used on Samsung, I am sold for it then.
 
the lg 236v is the same as the 231 that i have, so yes, it'd have the same issue.

the S24A350H is by no means the greatest monitor, it is fairly grainy, more so that the pa246q, from what i know the pa246q has a slightly lighter ag coating than the s24a350h. with that said i never had them side by side for comparison, i had no reason to, i wasnt interested in either. so i might be slightly off on this one

I think the S23A700D would interest you, glossy 120hz. that's the one i'm tempted with atm. i'm trying to decide between this and the catleap glossy 27' ips

source: I used to work computer retail as a repair tech, I play with these things daily =P
 
I might misunderstand you but I would say that Asus PA246q has a coating that is more visible and is making the screen look like covered by ice. On a side by side comparison the Asus coating seems "harder" while the Samsung S24A350H seems to be much less noticeable.
In the other hand, while Asus PA246q coating is noticeable, I can detect it and ignore it, while the Samsung one is much harder to see its texture, but the result is that it mixing itself in the colors, making light colors glossy/metallic, and especially white seems to be always shining.
Am I missing something here? But I feel like the fact that I notice better the harder coating of the Asus allows me to ignore it, and read better, and have more correct light colors. Is it possible that the glossy colors of the samsung are the dithered colors? Is it actually possible to notice the dithering? However, I doubt that a R:255,G:255;B:255 pure white color is dithered, so I really don't think is the issue.
 
Well, two different opinions on the Asus + Samsung coatings. Usually the heavier coated IPS panel bothers people (it did for me). Most are okay with regular matte coatings.

The Samsung is a TN panel, so would use a 6 bit panel with FRC to sort of 'fake' being 8-bit. I'm not sure if any people can notice this with their eyes (some claim they can see it). So I guess it is possible that could be causing some eyestrain.


The Asus is wide gamut, so unless it uses FRC to go from 8 bit to 10 bit, it shouldn't do the FRC thing. It may cause oversaturated colors though.

As for the M240HW02 V5, is it still in production (or planned)? Last time I checked the manufacturer website, I couldn't even find that panel listed anymore.

The GW2450HM should be semi-glossy. I think all A-MVA panels are semi-glossy (Phillips, Samsung 650, BenQ). The Samsung PLS models are semi-glossy too.

Have you ever used other LCDs (regular matte, CCFL) and had any problems with it? How about laptop screens?
 
I only saw so far those:
- Dell U2410 - same as Asus, good but I would try for something better to be honest, if it exists with CCFL.
- LG 236V, it seems to be as bad as the Samsung I have with its dark white, so I guess is also the LED adding to my eye strain.
- Apple cinema display, glossy: this is fine even if is led, but I can't afford it..
- I used for like 5 years a HP Pavilion ZD8290ea laptop, and I liked it alot - but I can't do any programming on it, and is way too old now.
- Eizo Color Edge CG221, that looked like my Samsung coating wise. I could see the colors like the red of this forum sparkling at me, but I could not see the white sparkling at me. Is strange. That leads me to think that my monitor has defective contrast. I am not sure what to think. Also, since this Eizo is high gamut, I assume that it doesn't do any dithering at all.

Some other ideas that I thought about would be to test out if my samsung doesn't have dithering problems, and I saw some youtube movies about it, but I didn't really understand how exactly I can decide if is wrong or not.
One other idea would be that I can't really find enough contrast in the led lighting, unless I make it so bright that I can't look at it. So either I get strain from low contrast or from too much light coming from the monitor..
One odd thing though is that I feel fine with glossy led monitors, or is something else in that monitor that makes it easy for me.
I can also find myself in the situation that I can't accept the coating on the asus either, since I am not totally used to it yet.
One final idea could be that my samsung is defective, and the text is fuzzy and for some reason I can't notice it. But I don't think my brain can trick me like that to not notice.

Are there any CCFL monitors with normal coating that are close performance wise to my Asus? Ofc.. This would be my budget limit.
 
The color edge you previously used was IPS, so = bad coating. The Dell U2410 has pretty heavy coating. And it's possible that even though your Samsung was a TN, it had heavy coating too. And you did okay with glossy screens (ACD + laptop). So although it is possible that you are sensitive to some LEDs, I think the coating is playing a big role in your eye issues there.

So to be safe, you probably should go with a semiglossy or glossy display. And I assume you want IPS? *thinks* This will be tricky if you also want CCFL too. Only glossy IPS screens that I know of are the 27" ACD, Korean models and that Microcenter one. And they are all LED. The 24" ACD is another option, if you find one either new, or if willing to take a chance, used. I've seen the 24" in your price range. You can go semiglossy PLS, but again, they are LED. There are semiglossy VA panels, but they are LED, as well.

Maybe something like the NEC 2490 would be okay, as it's IPS, normal coating and CCFL. But... they stopped making the good (original) version years ago, so it'd have to be used. I'm also not entirely sure if you are okay with normal matte coating or not.

If it was me, I'd pick up a glossy or semiglossy LED from a place with a good return policy. The size, and IPS or VA, will be up to your preference. At least that way you can see how your eyeballs react.

Or maybe someone else has some ideas. I don't know of anything new that uses an IPS panel with light coating + no LED.
 
I start to think that the only way I could use a LED is with a glossy or semi-glossy display. The Samsung S27A970 seems to have the same "feeling" of my old Laptop Screen which was glossy. Obviously I couldn't afford it, but I would love to see a 24 inch 1920x1200 version, then I would defo save for it.

I was afraid that I would end up wanting something too similar to Nec 2490, which is impossible to find - also the price is too big.

There is also another aspect, and that is gaming, I will need something I can also game on. I don't think that I can afford 2 screens, one of them for work (MVA or PLS/IPS) and the other for gaming (IPS).
I probably should start saving some more, but to be totally honest, I would prefer to go with semi-glossy instead of glossy.

I was thinking about what would be the monitor I would love to get, using current technology. (otherwise the answer would be very simple, oled :p)

- 24 inch. 1920x1200, and not 27 inch since I don't want to keep upgrading my computer to keep up with resolution for gaming.
- tilt, height adjustment, swivel, no portrait (the monitors I saw that have portrait are hard to position perfectly horizontally, so I rather skip this feature).
- 2 ms GTG response time, the least amount of ghosting, TN like input lag.
- PLS or IPS, with A-TW polarizer or maybe the PVA from the Benq? I think is safer to stay with IPS/PLS.
- good contrast with 80-120 luminance.
- wide gamut colors - you have to see it in games to know how bad tn panels colors are and how awesome the colors can look on a high gamut one.
- semi glossy screen, or a darker glossy one, crt like.
- 500 eur max :p (maybe 600 if i struggle hard)
- CCFL or RGB LED. - I simply don't like WLED technology, and I really think was just a transition to RGB LED, which could end up being better then CCFL in terms of accurate/pleasant whites, and I honestly think that they should have jumped directly to RGB LED and skip WLED entirely.
 
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I'm not so sure you can find what you want, in your pricerange there.

For 500 eur... hmm... have you looked at Eizos at all? They seem to be a bit cheaper outside the US, for whatever reason. They do have some older CCFL panels, at 24". But the best you may be able to do is standard matte with an Eizo VA, unless you go for the Eizo FS2332. Semiglossy, PLS, but it's 23" and 16:9. I don't think it has height adjustment either.

If you want glossy or semi-glossy, it makes your choices easier, as there aren't that many to choose from. If you also want 24", 16:10 .... look for a 24" ACD? Most are used nowadays, but once in a rare while you can find new old stock. It won't have height adjustment, however. No idea how it is for gaming either, and you may need a mini display port adapter, if your video card doesn't have one already.

If you can find a backlight bleed free version, the 24" samsung PLS may match up with what you want. At least well enough, that is. But almost all seem to have some bleed, and they aren't wide gamut. They are actually 6-bit, FRC, if I recall right.

You aren't going to find everything you want in your list. The requirements simply don't match up to what is available. If you want PLS or IPS, you can throw out good contrast (unless you consider 1000:1 good enough) ... they won't reach VA levels. Only a handful of A-TW monitors are made anymore, and they are all super expensive. And none glossy, that I am aware of. Only inexpensive ATW option is to go for a used 2490. But it's not wide gamut. RGB LED won't be in your pricerange.

I'm not entirely sure why you want wide gamut either. It over saturates colors, and unless working with photos/images, sort of useless (actually a detriment). I certainly wouldn't choose wide gamut just to play games on. A s-rgb monitor is what you want, in my opinion.
 
Thank you for the ideas. Wide gamut and height adjustment is something I can give up on to be really honest, but only if the huge color difference between my TN and my ASUS IPS is caused by IPS vs TN and not by 6+FRC vs 10 bit(?).

Anyway, today I found something new, and it seems that the biggest part of my problem is related to the white color luminance.
I noticed that if I play around with RGB Gain levels, I get a solution to stop white from light bleeding, which is totally annoying when reading white text on black background. Anyone can give some ideas about how to set the RGB Gain and RGB offset values?
I did notice also that if I lower the value of RGB Offset, the blacks seem to be deeper, achieving better contrast. This seems to help, however, I am not sure how to set them up properly.

On my Samsung I don't have access to this as I only have R,G,B general values, and I can't stop whites from "shining".
And one bigger problem, is that the level of shining, is directly affected by the cable I use:
Video Card => Monitor Connection:
VGA(DVI adaptor) to VGA almost acceptable.
DVI to HDMI => Worse then VGA.
MiniHDMI to HDMI => this is disastrous, the whites are totally shining so bright that I could say is the sun.

The only way I was able to reduce this effect, but is obviously far from perfect, is to reduce the RGB from a standard value of 50, 50, 50 to 30,30,30, and the contrast from default value, down to 0. I am using my Samsung with 60-70 brightness and 0 contrast.
 
As I mentioned before, the 236V does have the same issue.
You said you feel fine with LED glossy monitor, your issue could very well be the same as mine, but combined LED flickering and heavy ag coating, mine is mostly heavy coating, less so the flickering.

Also I failed to note, you said the amount of light coming through seems more constant with CCFL, which you might be correct due to LED flickering. Most users of the korean 27 ips seem to not notice this issue though, or if so, minimal.

If the 246Q seems ok, why not get another one? If you must try something else, within a reasonable price, you might still be able to find the matte ccfl EA231WMI around some local stores brand new.

My personal suggestion remains: go with 120hz glossy. or just any glossy, LED or not. I really don't think the issue is the LED. As I said before, my first led monitor was a ms238h. it was great, light coating, no eye strain. I had eye strain on any matte, heavy coated monitors, led or not.

cerbul said:
Anyway, today I found something new, and it seems that the biggest part of my problem is related to the white color luminance.
I noticed that if I play around with RGB Gain levels, I get a solution to stop white from light bleeding, which is totally annoying when reading white text on black background. Anyone can give some ideas about how to set the RGB Gain and RGB offset values?
I did notice also that if I lower the value of RGB Offset, the blacks seem to be deeper, achieving better contrast. This seems to help, however, I am not sure how to set them up properly.

On my Samsung I don't have access to this as I only have R,G,B general values, and I can't stop whites from "shining".
And one bigger problem, is that the level of shining, is directly affected by the cable I use:
Video Card => Monitor Connection:
VGA(DVI adaptor) to VGA almost acceptable.
DVI to HDMI => Worse then VGA.
MiniHDMI to HDMI => this is disastrous, the whites are totally shining so bright that I could say is the sun.
Click to expand...

Try taking the monitor off RGB. Use user define. R100 G100 B90. Lowering blue dominance helps quite a bit in reducing white sparkle, at least on my 2412m it did, still, no better than my $100 benq G2220HD when reading white. It's kind of sad a monitor 1/3 the cost works better.

Also, never use vga/dvi adapter, that just kills the whole point of color/digital. HDMI is also a fail.
ALWAYS do DVI to DVI, no other option is as good, well, supposingly DP is the same, but thats a whole different issue.

If you find vga is more pleasant vs DVI, that's probably because your font is too sharp. Lower the sharpness on the monitor until it matches the way the VGA displays the font. I know this because I am also very sensitive to this issue, which was a non issue on the ms238h. now i really wish i didn't sell it lol.
 
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Hmm, my video card only has 2x DVI and 1 MiniHDMI and my Samsung monitor has only VGA and HDMI. Kind of unfortunate situation. I tried all possible cables and VGA was still the best.

Interesting point with sharpness, will try to see how it works.
 
if u're feeding it with vga you won't be able to adjust the sharpness.
hdmi might be part of your issue. I know for a fact my eyes & hdmi do not get along. lol
 
hakkafusion said:
if u're feeding it with vga you won't be able to adjust the sharpness.
hdmi might be part of your issue. I know for a fact my eyes & hdmi do not get along. lol
Click to expand...

Can you explain a bit why you don't like HDMI?

I can explain how it feels for me. When I use HDMI I get the feeling that the light comes freely through a white pixel, just like it would be totally transparent. Normally, I would expect to have a white colored pixel that lets white light to come out of it, and not the white light coming out freely out of it. It feels also that there is a bit better contrast overall with HDMI but that seems to come from the fact that light colors sparkle, and not because the blacks are deeper and stand out better compared to white.
Also, my asus looks exactly the same regardless of the connection I use, I was unable to spot any differences, while my Samsung looks entirely different even in the situation when I use "Dvi to HDMI" and i compare it to "Mini Hdmi to Hdmi", so the monitor is fed using hdmi in both situations.

You get the same situation?

Also, anyone can give a bit more details about RGB Gain and RGB offset and how to set them up properly?

I am unable to reach the exact same sharpness style that I get on VGA, and I tested this also with LAGOM test, so the image looks different.
Also, you were saying that I should try RGB 100, 100, 90. Either way, if I go over 60 with R,G,B, I get the whites so sparkling, that I would be better looking at the sun.
 
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CCFL Gave me blackouts and mini seziures LED was the best thing to happen to me for PC gaming
It's not perfect by any means though it took me a good year to calibrate my monitor to make it useable and some newer Nvidia drivers and a Bias antec backlight. I use a CRT for most of the week though I was one of the people waiting for SED to come out it never really did so I bought a projector for gaming. I just sold it on ebay a few weeks ago.
 
cerbul said:
Can you explain a bit why you don't like HDMI?

Also, my asus looks exactly the same regardless of the connection I use, I was unable to spot any differences, while my Samsung looks entirely different even in the situation when I use "Dvi to HDMI" and i compare it to "Mini Hdmi to Hdmi", so the monitor is fed using hdmi in both situations.

Also, anyone can give a bit more details about RGB Gain and RGB offset and how to set them up properly?
Click to expand...

For whatever reason, hdmi when transmitted to anything but a tv (ie. a monitor), will look worse than dvi/vga. Don't let other people tell you other wise, I've done extensive testing of this at work, I tried looking online for an answer, but all I find is people saying "hdmi should be same as dvi because they're both digital." In a way, what they say is true, but they obvious is going by the text book answer and have never tested this themselves, or not as much experimentation as I have.

Bare with me here since I'm not going to stick to the technical terms and try to use words that normal people can comprehend.
I came to the conclusion that because hdmi uses a decoder (pcb board) inside the monitor that is different than the one required for dvi, if at all because hdmi requires a rescale of the things being displayed, while dvi can be a straight pass through. This is evident when using a monitor (hdmi in) and (dvi out) from video card, the image almost always requires overscan set by the video driver otherwise the image appeals too small. This happens most models I've tested made between 2010-early 2012, from 22 inch monitors with hdmi inputs to 50 inch sony TVs. Just google hdmi overscan if you are really interested.

That isnt where the problem is, it is when you overscan the image, even at the correct resolution, the font appears distorted on the TV. This is most evident on the Samsung ToC series TV/Monitors, ie (T220hd/T240hd), where the picture quality is so horrible you'd prefer vga over it, because at least vga is usually only slightly blurry, and varies to almost same as dvi quality, depending on the ad board the manufacturer used; while the hdmi has horribly wrong colors, pixelated font, etc. LG TV/monitors with hdmi inputs had the same issue.

For whatever reason, either manufacturer cheaped out, or it is an inherent problem with hdmi, that is just the way it is, hence I just stay far away from hdmi unless push comes to shove, I've got no choice but hdmi (ie. office TV setups, etc.)

This is probably the same issue with the samsung monitor you're using. Albeit my asus ms238h was hdmi or d-sub input only, using the dvi-hdmi cable that came with the monitor or dvi to hdmi adapter gave no noticeable picture degradation; that said, I could not compare it with a dvi connection to the monitor as it did not exist, so maybe the dvi quality would've been better, but we'd never know, either way I was happy with the quality, unlike that of ie. Samsung T220hd.

I tested this theory at work with many different models of monitors/tv, and more or less up until december of last year, they all display this issue to various degree. DVI remains the choice of quality and simplicity. DP should provide identical quality, but I did not test that extensively so I will not comment.

About the RGB color setting, you could just lower the settings to 50/50/45 if the monitor is too bright @ 100. the color being display stays roughly the same provided the ratio stays about the same. or even 25/25/23, just lower the color that is dominant on your display. It is usually blue that is dominant since most monitors have white LED and not RGB led backlighting, and blue tint causes much more eye uncomfortableness vs a warmer tint such as red/orange or even green. Of the three main colors, green supposedly is the most pleasant to the eyes, has the least strain on them, but it does affect image quality and not everyone like things green tinted. The ms238h I used has a natural strong green bias, which might've helped with the overall experience, which I've also grown used to. The benq I'm typing this on is stronger on the red side, so its not as comfortable, but it's still better than blue bias that is evident on a lot of newer monitors being sold today.

Solution? find a RGB led back lit monitor, and hope that it has no led flicker.
 
HDMI
Some monitors use different circuit for HDMI decoding and graphics card see this as "HDTV" wchich can lead to all different kind of problems like need for 16-235 levels (those will produce banding even if set properly). Also decoder in monitor can do all kind of strange things like red push, overscan, stupid crazy hdtv scaling, etc. My LG is fine on DVI and with HDMI it's just looking like HDTV with all it's limitations. Of course most monitors look just fine on HDMI. It's good to actually check DVI if it's the same or not.

Coating
If you don't see any problem with PA246Q then coating is definitely not bothering you at all. This panel have worst 3H coating ever produced :D

LED
LED comes in two main variants:
- RGB-LED
- W-LED (W for "white")
If you can't afford Apple monitor then you can't afford RGB-LED either. Not going into details but those technologies differs greatly.
W-LED sucks because it is actually blue LED + phosphor that generate remaining light. Problem is that blue component is much stronger and that is why all W-LED have this blue thing going on.
Ofcouse W-LED differ and cheaper = worse. Better monitors have filters in their LEDs to reduce blueness and refine gamut (colors) and cheaper are just raw blue led + phosphor that just looks ridiculous...

CCFL
CCFL lamps also have various types. What you have in PA246Q is WCG-CCFL and it have different light than other CCFLs.
Also normal CCFLs differs greatly. There are at least three types of them, one the best closer to WCG-CCFL in light but normal gamut and unfortunately rare, other most common and third the worst having strange looking red and washedout colors. Better monitors generally use first type and second type.

Flickering
There is something called PWM flickering. It's high frequency flickering that regulate brightness. Some LEDs can be worse than CCFL because LEDs are faster and can actually go on-off very very fast whareas CCFL need some time and frequencies like 175Hz are enough to not cause headaches or eyestrain on CCFL, while causing it on LED. LEDs need much higher frequencies and filtering that costs money...

----
Generally it might be possible that you would like good W-LED IPS like Dell U2412M even when you don't like cheap W-LED TN because it's different kind of W-LED, not so crappy and raw. Also IPS is not TN and don't strain eyes so much.
 
Now that is very useful information.

I started to come to the conclusion that I got no choice but to use DVI(video card) to VGA(monitor), as the other 2 options that I have, specifically DVI(vidcard) to HDMI(monitor) and MiniHDMI(vidcard) to HDMI(monitor) are both causing me severe eye strain. Out of those, MiniHDMI to HDMI is the worse of all, I am not able to use the monitor at all in a browser or anything that is white, gaming on it is fine tho..
The reason I didn't accept to use VGA is because there is a clear degradation in the sharpness of everything, especially where you see 2 big blocks of different colors and there is not a clear distinction between them.
I do remember that my Samsung is seen by windows 7 as HDTV and not at PC. On my asus, regardless of what connection I use, and I tried them all, except display port, it sees it as a PC Resolution.

So I should understand from here that the best of the CCFL lights is WCG-CCFL?

I am afraid that I would have to wait too long to see an affordable RGB Led, but I am sure that this would be the best choice if it ever comes with soft coating. I am asking myself at this moment if an IPS LED is or is not better then TN LED, in terms of color strength, without letting that much light out. I was also thinking about S24A850DW, but I am simply afraid to try this cause of backlight bleeding. Prolly I will take 1 risk since I got my Asus from amazon.
What do you mean by good WLED? Are there any that are better?

For example, on this Asus, I am able to work with 50 brightness during day, and with 12-15 during the night, the colors are a bit strong but is alright. With Samsung, I can't up the brightness over 50 as it burns my eyes, yet I still can't read text easy. I start being able to read text at 60-70 brightness but can't look at the screen more then 10 minutes as the brightness is killing my eyes.

I saw some videos with HP Dreamcolor RGB monitor, and yes... that would be awesome.. but still, hard coating.
I can't say that Asus coating bothers me, but it does affect the text to some degree. I am fine with the brightness and with the color of the white, and with the contrast, only problem that remained is the coating. Also, the blurring of image when gaming is a bit at the limit of acceptance. But if this coating could be like samsung's one I would accept this slight blurring while gaming.

So my main question is: is there that much difference between LED TN and LED IPS then it is between this ASUS and a LED TN?
Or anyone that compared a LED TN with an LED IPS, and felt like there is not enough contrast for reading on the TN and was fine on the IPS then I would try the Samsung PLS.

Also, the S27A970 seems awesome, glossy ftw, but I would like to see it coming in 24 inch version.
Probably I should wait ...
 
W-LED sucks because it is actually blue LED + phosphor that generate remaining light. Problem is that blue component is much stronger and that is why all W-LED have this blue thing going on.
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The native whitepoint differs amongst screens emitting various spectra (and is also far away of being ideal when using a CCFL backlight) but all better screens should offer RGB Gain controls or at least fixed temperature presets that will allow to achieve the desired color stimulus.The problem of a quite limited color gamut (when using filters which don't absorb too much light) in comparison with screens implementing a WCG-CCFL or RGB-LED blu remains of course.

Best regards

Denis
 
So I should understand from here that the best of the CCFL lights is WCG-CCFL?
yes and no. It surely is very good and professional monitors can use that to their advantage but in lower end monitors such as U2410/PA246Q it make sRGB not being as accurate as it should be. Proper gamut emulation require specialized hardware that isn't cheap... NEC PA241W uses this panel and will have all necessary features to make it great.

I am afraid that I would have to wait too long to see an affordable RGB Led
Won't happen. RGB-LED costs much and require gamut emulation hardware that costs even more...
Whole point of changing CCFL to W-LED was to reduce costs, not increase it...

What do you mean by good WLED? Are there any that are better?
by general rule: the better panel the less W-LED flaws are visible. So yeah, light coming from IPS W-LED will be slightly better than from TN W-LED. Of course other things like viewing angles will also be better.

So my main question is: is there that much difference between LED TN and LED IPS then it is between this ASUS and a LED TN?
No.
I'm sure though that even 6bit E-IPS with W-LED will be much much better than TN with W-LED

I saw some videos with HP Dreamcolor RGB monitor, and yes... that would be awesome.. but still, hard coating.
Hard but much much better than what you have on Asus
I had Dell U2410 that uses panel PA246Q uses and I was bothered by coating. With RGB-LED W2420R there is no coating problem at all. It's still there and is just doing it's job in making monitor useable in almost direct sunlight. Newer E-IPS monitors shoud have similar reduced coating.
 
What I would really want to find is what exactly is the reason of low readability on my TN panel, so that I know what to chose next.
Those could be the solutions, and what I would do in that case:

1. Not deep enough blacks. This means that I will have to go with a VA panel, might have to wait for the 120 hz one to get better results. Obviously, TN has a bit better blacks then an IPS, but I don't know how blacks are on a LED IPS or on an PLS monitor.

2. White is not white enough, to create contrast with the black. I can assume that this is the main cause of my problem, as the whites on a CCFL monitor do look white, while on an LED look more like dark blueish.

3. The difference between IPS and TN I assume is the smallest part of my problem, but there could be that the white on a LED IPS could look better then the white on a LED TN.

4. Last part that could matter is the coating. I can assume that the white is so white on a CCFL that it doens't bother me having heavy coating that much, but I guess on a LED it makes the difference between being able to use or not to use a panel.

I would like to know why exactly I do like Glossy IPS LED, and more specifically, I would like to know if the glossy screen allows me to read regardless of the fact that white is dark blueish, or is the quality of the white being better because is an IPS and not a TN(or simply the technology allows for better sharpness). I would guess that I need to see a hard coating IPS like U2412M to have an answer to this question, but I don't know.
 
1. someone correct me if i'm wrong, but ips is in every way superior to tn exception of response time
2. some monitors are more 'blue' than others. so you're only choice is to go by a review/physically view the monitor
3. ips does have a glow, but since you dont have much issue on the p248q let's assume that isn't an issue
4. it could be a problem compounded by bad led flickering/heavy ag coating, which causes a horrible eye strain when it's not as bright. keep in mind the lower the brightness the more noticeable the led flickering becomes (if it's present, some monitors do not have led flickering issues)

I am looking at the 2412m on the side while typing this. It is almost in every way identical to the ips231p. go glossy. u will not regret it, unless the monitor is mirroring a window/bright light
 
My setup at home is perfect for a glossy monitor, as the window is behind the monitor, and behind me there is absolutely no window.
However, I don't see any viable options at this point, except for the few semi-glossy monitors that started to get manufactured.
If they ever make a 24 inch version of the S27A970 then it would be awesome. Or even better, an RGB Led 120 HZ IPS Glossy monitor. Yep, I should stop dreaming :p I can see OLED coming faster then they would actually bother making such a screen.
 
Everyone here is ignoring the obvious, just go to ebay and pick up one of the following:

achieva shimian

catleap

crossover monitor


be happy



When I went from a CCFL ips 20" to a TN 23" CCFL, I got eye strain because the monitor was crappy. It's like my eyes and brain could tell the missing detail and clarity. Once I got my 27" 8 bit color achieva shimian panel there was ZERO strain, led backlight does not harm anything, a crappy panel does.

when I got my shimian it was 395, it's sub 300 dollars now.

EVERYONE on this board who gets anything but one of those korean ips panels is basically saying they hate themselves, and would prefer to dine on beef jerky than a nice cut of salmon.

2560x1440p is not that difficult to drive unless you play the highest end pc gaming titles, I am running a 6870 and it does fine. If you are really concerned get a 670 and call it a year, times 2. You are not going to have issues.
 
Which one of them is the best option?
I am not really concerned about how much you can up the hz, but I want the least problems, the best performance ghosting/blurring wise, quality stand and quality image. And ofc, glossy.
 
it comes down to your own preference. They are all glossy.
crossover should have the smallest bezel, best stand quality, does pivot (portrait)
I'm personally going to get a potalion. if I ever get 3 i'll debezel it.
I'll report back after I receive it. probably later this wk or late next week.
 
If the OP lives near a microcenter, he may be better off getting the similar panel, 27" glossy from there. If he does in fact have an issue with LEDs, at least that way he can return it to the store. If buying the Korean ones on eBay, he'll be stuck with it.

That said, I suspect his main issue is with the coating. I used to have a 2412 and found the text on white backgrounds really bothering my eyes due to the 'sparkle'.

Options are limited if you want no heavy AG coating and new (and either IPS or VA) ... ACD, Microcenter or Korean 27", Dell 21.5" touchscreen, Samsung PLS, Eizo PLS, Samsung VA (650). So just pick whatever is in your price range, your size preference and how much risk you want to take as far as returns go. Or wait until that new Dell 27"er comes out, which is rumored to be glossy.
 
CCFL has warmer color then LED. LED tends to be very blue.

CCFL has flicker and takes a bit to warm up when first turned on. LED suffers from neither of these.

I will reccomend against the GW2450 as its LED is very blue and I couldn't get past it.


For me personally CCFL looks better but is a bigger strain on my eyes due to flicker. LED has poor color characteristics and is more prone to diffuser problems (IE inconsistent backlighting/backlight bleet ect.)

Yet everyone would have you beleive LED is superior in every way.

LED uses less power and powers on instantly. Theres your benefit.

The only monitor I have used with LED that I liked and has been the easiest on my eyes is the S24A650 from Samsung.

tybert7 said:
EVERYONE on this board who gets anything but one of those korean ips panels is basically saying they hate themselves, and would prefer to dine on beef jerky than a nice cut of salmon.
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Can you mount that monitor on a arm or wall mount? Pictures I have seen of it suggest you can not.

What are the black levels like? What is the contrast?

For me the display must be VESA mountable and have contrast in excess of 3000:1 and black levels of no greater than .05 cd/m2
 
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I tried to search a bit about types of led monitors, and I wasn't really able to find anything.
Anyone can give a hint about what type of led a good monitor has to have?

Also, I am trying my best to stay away from 27 inch, though, I am sure that a text will look even better with a smaller pixel pitch. I might take a risk with Samsung S24A850DW and if is not good enough, I will return it and wait for anything glossy with 24 inches, IPS/PLS, 1920x1200, 4/5 ms GtG.

I would like to know if companies actually do start making cheaper RGB Led monitors anytime soon. The one thing I like about this technology is the fact that I am almost certain, that if any company relies on the RGB LED to achieve the white color temperature, they need really good quality color control to make the rest of the pixels act correctly to the amount of light they receive. This I would consider a good sign, even though I might be wrong, but I think that the amount of light coming out has to be perfectly controlled, color wise, uniformity wise, and color accuracy has to be perfect, in order to be able to take advantage of the RGB color of the light coming through. I would love to see soon a cheaper RGB LED monitor, I would actually raise my budget for that.
 
ccfls always create better colors compared to w-leds

however leds cannot produce any noise
they don't need a inverter that produces noise
and they can be hooked up to any 1000hz> led dimmer (10$) in case of flicker

with ccfls you're screwed in all 3 cases
 
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Bun-Bun said:
CCFL has warmer color then LED. LED tends to be very blue.

CCFL has flicker and takes a bit to warm up when first turned on. LED suffers from neither of these.

I will reccomend against the GW2450 as its LED is very blue and I couldn't get past it.


For me personally CCFL looks better but is a bigger strain on my eyes due to flicker. LED has poor color characteristics and is more prone to diffuser problems (IE inconsistent backlighting/backlight bleet ect.)

Yet everyone would have you beleive LED is superior in every way.

LED uses less power and powers on instantly. Theres your benefit.

The only monitor I have used with LED that I liked and has been the easiest on my eyes is the S24A650 from Samsung.



Can you mount that monitor on a arm or wall mount? Pictures I have seen of it suggest you can not.

What are the black levels like? What is the contrast?

For me the display must be VESA mountable and have contrast in excess of 3000:1 and black levels of no greater than .05 cd/m2
Click to expand...

The achieva shimian variant DOES have vesa mounts, not sure about the catleap but people say they have to remove the stand if its even possible. So if you are looking for vesa mounts, get the achieva shimian.

http://www.overclock.net/t/1215866/...ian-qh270-and-catleap-q270/4010#post_17461864



As far as performance, Anand picked up on a tip on these displays and had a friend bring one over for testing. Here are the results.


http://www.anandtech.com/show/5885/the-achieva-shimian-qh270-a-350-27inch-wqhd-sips-display


If you REALLY need contrast higher than 3000:1 then your only option is one of those PVA panels of the sort Ben Q makes, I don't think any tn/ips panel can do what you want.
 
Good to know about the VESA mount option.

And that anandtech article proves exactly my point. Black level on that monitor is horrendous at .342 cd/m2. That is 5 times more than my current monitor and 34 times more than my TV.

I personally would not be able to game on that display.
 
XoR said:
----
Generally it might be possible that you would like good W-LED IPS like Dell U2412M even when you don't like cheap W-LED TN because it's different kind of W-LED, not so crappy and raw.
Click to expand...


U2312HM have same W-LED?
 
Bun-Bun said:
Good to know about the VESA mount option.

And that anandtech article proves exactly my point. Black level on that monitor is horrendous at .342 cd/m2. That is 5 times more than my current monitor and 34 times more than my TV.

I personally would not be able to game on that display.
Click to expand...

I believe those black levels are at max. brightness -- which nobody will ever use, unless they want to burn out their retinas. What are the avg. black levels for a calibrated IPS nowadays, around .15-.20ish?

It won't reach good VA levels, and there is no IPS that will reach a contrast of 3000:1. But if used in a room with any light source, blacks may be acceptable. Although if you include IPS glow into the equation, then it'll depend on how much glow bothers you.

@cerbul

I don't think RGB LEDs will be made affordable anytime soon (although I'd like to be proved wrong). I'd think there is a better chance OLED will come down to semi-affordable prices within the next couple of years. There is little financial incentive for monitor makers to even use RGB LEDs, since most people either don't care about W-LEDs, don't know the difference, or think W-LEDs are superior (talking about general public).
 
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