LED Backlights

[Raxxath]

I'm currently looking for a new HDTV to replace my 37" Westinghouse as a monitor. I like the Westy for the most part, and its been good to me, but the backlight makes a buzzing sound, regardless of what percentage its set to. I'm building a silent computer, so that's not acceptable.

The LED backlights in newer HDTVs wouldn't make the buzzing noise that current cold cathode backlights do in monitors and televisions, would they? I don't mind the added price of LED technology if it means a silent LCD in the least. My old 20" LCD made a ridiculous high-pitched ringing sound, regardless if it was on or off. I had to unplug it to sleep at night(Yes, I have very sensitive hearing).

And, if I read correctly, the 120hz HDTVs really wouldn't offer anything over 60hz models for PC gaming, would they? A few threads I read indicated that it wasn't true 120hz, and would therefore more or less still be capped at 60 fps.

 

[Weenis]

True on the 120v60Hz, they can still only accept 60Hz signals, so its really not doing you any good from a frame limit perspective.

As per LED backlit, well I'm not sure there are many if any HDTVs with LED backlights right now?

Your CCFL lamp should not be buzzing though, if its under warranty get westinghouse to replace it, or if you like the TV get it serviced if its not under warranty..

 

[Scyles]

The buzzing is probably coming from the monitor's power supply.

 

[Odin75]

Hmmm, I don't have an answer for you, but I do have a few comments. As noted in my signature, I have the same hdtv as you. So, either your screen is defective, I am going deaf, or you seen to posses extraordinary ears. I go to sleep every night, 90% of the time with the screen on, and I never seem to hear any sound. So, I don't know man, but if the sound is so great and annoying to the point to spend extra money than what you already did, to disappear it, then maybe you have any of the problems above.
Sorry if my post was useless, but I just felt like I had to share my feeling towards your issue there. Hope you find a solution that satisfies your needs, tho'.

 

[Raxxath]

True on the 120v60Hz, they can still only accept 60Hz signals, so its really not doing you any good from a frame limit perspective.

As per LED backlit, well I'm not sure there are many if any HDTVs with LED backlights right now?

Your CCFL lamp should not be buzzing though, if its under warranty get westinghouse to replace it, or if you like the TV get it serviced if its not under warranty..

Is it at all possible for 120hz to hurt PC gaming in any way? I ask because some LED HDTVs have the 120hz feature, so I may end up getting one of those. The xx81 series from Samsung uses an LED backlight, among others.

My Westy has been buzzing from the moment I got it, and I've read a lot about other buzzing monitors and HDTVs, so I figured returning it wouldn't solve anything.

The buzzing is probably coming from the monitor's power supply.

I think you could be right. The loudest buzz comes from the spine on the back. I can look in and see a red light. However, softer buzzes also come from the edges/corners where the cathodes are, but the one in the spine is by far the loudest.

Hmmm, I don't have an answer for you, but I do have a few comments. As noted in my signature, I have the same hdtv as you. So, either your screen is defective, I am going deaf, or you seen to posses extraordinary ears. I go to sleep every night, 90% of the time with the screen on, and I never seem to hear any sound. So, I don't know man, but if the sound is so great and annoying to the point to spend extra money than what you already did, to disappear it, then maybe you have any of the problems above.
Sorry if my post was useless, but I just felt like I had to share my feeling towards your issue there. Hope you find a solution that satisfies your needs, tho'.

I can hear light bulbs when they're on and I frequent Silent PC Review, so yes, I do have very sensitive hearing . Maybe you could stick your head behind your monitor and see if you hear the buzzing? Its very faint from the front, but still enough to annoy me. From the back however, its quite loud.


So, if it is the power supply that's making the noise, is there anything I can do? Do they make silent HDTVs? I know silent monitors can be somewhat rare, as most buzz when you lower the brightness below 90%.

 

[Raxxath]

Well, my question still remains... would an LED backlight solve the buzzing problem that many LCDs have when you change the brightness?

 

[Rozal0]

And, if I read correctly, the 120hz HDTVs really wouldn't offer anything over 60hz models for PC gaming, would they? A few threads I read indicated that it wasn't true 120hz, and would therefore more or less still be capped at 60 fps.

133Hz would be worse than 120Hz....
120Hz is a MAGIC number. Heres why:

Film is 24 frames per second. We're not just talking DVD. We're talking about HD DVD and Blu-ray, too.

The problem is, most TVs run at 30 frames per second. Fitting that 24-frame content onto a 30-frame screen isn't that easy; the math just doesn't compute cleanly. You can't divide 24 by 30 without filling in the gaps with some junk. That junk causes stuttering in the video. This is a jerky-looking phenomenon that's particularly noticeable when the camera pans across a scene. The conversion is better known by film and TV wonks as 2:3 pulldown. It spreads out 24 frames into 30 by placing one frame on the screen three times and the next one after that two times, and repeating this pattern ad infinitum.

How does this relate to an 120Hz HDTV showing frames at 120 frames per second? A bit of simple math tells you that 120 is a multiple of 24, because 24 x 5 = 120. So one of the claims of the purveyors of these sped-up monitors is that they can natively reproduce 24p programming, namely, just about every film has ever been shot.

These new HDTVs avoid this awkward 3:2 pulldown process altogether by changing their frame rate to something that's a multiple of 24 by using either frame doubling or interpolation (also called "tweening"). Then, their playback can be as close to native 24fps playback as you can get. That's why 72Hz (24 x 3 = 72) and 120Hz refresh rates are gaining traction. This is why most other RR, even if it was 133hz, suffer from the 3:2 pulldown.

Film 24 x 5 = 120
Interlaced 30 x 4 = 120
Progressive 60 x 2 = 120

 

[conghelach]

Well, my question still remains... would an LED backlight solve the buzzing problem that many LCDs have when you change the brightness?

buzzing noise in a monitor is most likely the power supply inside it, not the lighting and yes I am talking about lcd's here, you have to remember ccfls in a monitor are not like four foot long light tubes in groups of four in a ceiling for lighting. If you have an lcd thats making buzzing noise then the power supply is likely the culprit, either that or you are hearing buzzing from fourescent light tubes in your works space or living space.

 

[conghelach]

133Hz would be worse than 120Hz....
120Hz is a MAGIC number. Heres why:

Film is 24 frames per second. We're not just talking DVD. We're talking about HD DVD and Blu-ray, too.

The problem is, most TVs run at 30 frames per second. Fitting that 24-frame content onto a 30-frame screen isn't that easy; the math just doesn't compute cleanly. You can't divide 24 by 30 without filling in the gaps with some junk. That junk causes stuttering in the video. This is a jerky-looking phenomenon that's particularly noticeable when the camera pans across a scene. The conversion is better known by film and TV wonks as 2:3 pulldown. It spreads out 24 frames into 30 by placing one frame on the screen three times and the next one after that two times, and repeating this pattern ad infinitum.

How does this relate to an 120Hz HDTV showing frames at 120 frames per second? A bit of simple math tells you that 120 is a multiple of 24, because 24 x 5 = 120. So one of the claims of the purveyors of these sped-up monitors is that they can natively reproduce 24p programming, namely, just about every film has ever been shot.

These new HDTVs avoid this awkward 3:2 pulldown process altogether by changing their frame rate to something that's a multiple of 24 by using either frame doubling or interpolation (also called "tweening"). Then, their playback can be as close to native 24fps playback as you can get. That's why 72Hz (24 x 3 = 72) and 120Hz refresh rates are gaining traction. This is why most other RR, even if it was 133hz, suffer from the 3:2 pulldown.

Film 24 x 5 = 120
Interlaced 30 x 4 = 120
Progressive 60 x 2 = 120

with all the penis envy going on about frame rates, is anyone familiar with the maximum FPS your eyeballs can handle????? That would be 30 FPS if memory serves correctly, anyone care to chime in on this????

 

[RaynQuist]

Is it at all possible for 120hz to hurt PC gaming in any way?.

Input lag. The TV needs to know what the next frame looks like before it can interpolate the frame inbetween, so you're guaranteed 1 frame lag (1/120 or 0.5/60). In reality it'll be more, since motion interpolation isn't exactly easy to do so there will be processing time. Plus whatever other lag that was already there. I know Samsung's 71f series has a Game Mode that turns 120Hz off. I'm sure the 81f series has a way to let you turn that off too.

 

[Rozal0]

with all the penis envy going on about frame rates, is anyone familiar with the maximum FPS your eyeballs can handle????? That would be 30 FPS if memory serves correctly, anyone care to chime in on this????

around 220

 

[Raxxath]

133Hz would be worse than 120Hz....
120Hz is a MAGIC number. Heres why:

Input lag. The TV needs to know what the next frame looks like before it can interpolate the frame inbetween, so you're guaranteed 1 frame lag (1/120 or 0.5/60). In reality it'll be more, since motion interpolation isn't exactly easy to do so there will be processing time. Plus whatever other lag that was already there. I know Samsung's 71f series has a Game Mode that turns 120Hz off. I'm sure the 81f series has a way to let you turn that off too.

Thank you both for the very informative posts. That clears a few things up. I guess I won't go out of my way for a 120hz model.

buzzing noise in a monitor is most likely the power supply inside it, not the lighting and yes I am talking about lcd's here, you have to remember ccfls in a monitor are not like four foot long light tubes in groups of four in a ceiling for lighting. If you have an lcd thats making buzzing noise then the power supply is likely the culprit, either that or you are hearing buzzing from fourescent light tubes in your works space or living space.

I'm fairly certain that the power supply is the culprit in my monitors, but I've heard of many others having issues when they lower the backlight. Wouldn't that mean that the backlight itself is what's making the noise in those monitors?

with all the penis envy going on about frame rates, is anyone familiar with the maximum FPS your eyeballs can handle????? That would be 30 FPS if memory serves correctly, anyone care to chime in on this????

I believe we can distinguish around a maximum of 30 individual frames per second, but we can notice the difference in fluidity between 30 and 60 or so easily, even if we're not really recognizing every frame.

 

[Weenis]

around 220

No. Do some research.

I'm sure its been discussed here before, e-penis war etc.

The human eye cannot distinguish over ~24-25fps.

I'm not saying 24-25fps is sufficient for video games. Your eye can't tell the difference between 50 and 100 frames, (I'm sure theres people who are like YES I CAN LOW FRAME RATES FOR NOOBS). Fluidity and being able to tell are difference. When you notice frame rate lag it has to do with how smooth the interface is between your mouse. It just so happens that when your frame rates dip(hey imagine that they're not constant and jump around quite a lot sometimes) things get choppy, and fluidity goes out the door.

It all has to do with the light and blur your eyes receive, which is why television runs at 24fps and seems perfectly fine, film blurs things.

Also, Frame rate is not frequency response.......learn to read.

Hz is the measurement for how many times the monitor updates the image coming from the GPU.
FPS is how many frames your GPU can render in a second.

Obviously FPS are limited by frequency response. However BFI (black frame insertion) which is generally a method to say "hey we have 120hz!" doesn't do you any good, because its not a relevant frame.
The human eye cannot tell the difference between 60/120 refreshes per minute on LCDs, its not like a CRT where it will flicker, the pixels don't light up in the same manner.

If your PC is pegging games at 60fps and doesn't dip you're not going to have problems, being able to go over 60 is basically useless. It doesn't inhibit you, now if it was 30hz that would be different

 

[mathesar]

Ive seen the Samsung 52" 1080p LED backlit LCD in action and was truely amazed at the picture quality, It's also the first LCD ive witnessed with *true* CRT like black levels (The tv was in a very dark room as well) ,Samsung claims 500,000:1 contrast ratio with these models but they're very expensive. , the 52" retails for a little over 5k.

 

[Odin75]

When they get huge numbers like that, I think they refer to Dynamic Contrast Ratio.

 

[Weenis]

Ive seen the Samsung 52" 1080p LED backlit LCD in action and was truely amazed at the picture quality, It's also the first LCD ive witnessed with *true* CRT like black levels (The tv was in a very dark room as well) ,Samsung claims 500,000:1 contrast ratio with these models but they're very expensive. , the 52" retails for a little over 5k.

This is because Samsung makes great stuff I'm sure. True LED back lighting is great if there are a ton of LEDs that can be switched off, but its pricey as hell. If they aren't a lot of them they aren't going to provide a better experience than CCFL backlit displays.

 

[Scyles]

When they get huge numbers like that, I think they refer to Dynamic Contrast Ratio.

It is dynamic contrast, but that particular model is different than what we are used to. Instead of adjusting the brightness of the entire panel at once, many sections of LED's adjust independently. Its a much better result, but its extremely expensive.

 

[Rozal0]

The human eye cannot distinguish over ~24-25fps.

http://www.100fps.com/how_many_frames_can_humans_see.htm good read

220 is the maximum, PROVEN and tested by the USAF.

Also, Frame rate is not frequency response.......learn to read.

Obviously FPS are limited by frequency response. However BFI (black frame insertion) which is generally a method to say "hey we have 120hz!" doesn't do you any good, because its not a relevant frame.
The human eye cannot tell the difference between 60/120 refreshes per minute on LCDs, its not like a CRT where it will flicker, the pixels don't light up in the same manner.

Yes it is, most things run at different frames, 24 for movies, 30 for interlaced, 60 for progressive. But if your monitor is running at 60Hz, you might say "oh it should be fine because refresh rate matches the FPS of programming" [BTW FPS term was derived from film making, NOT computers.] well, it's not. If you look at some real 120Hz televisions at best buy, which there are only a few of, and you can't tell the difference, even when I pretty much explained why all numbers won't work and why 120hz is a magic number, and you still think 24 fps - 220 are the same, than I honestly don't know what to say.

Also there is no reason to insult me.

 

[Odin75]

@Rozal0
Very interesting reading indeed. That does explain a few things. Thx.

By the way, I would like for you guys to see THIS VIDEO. It talks about how our brain reacts, allowing us to see things faster when we have adrenaline running through our body. So, the question is: Would the intensity and excitement of video games really be enough to stimulate our body with adrenaline, therefore speeding up our brain to the point of actually seen faster?
Well, I don't know about that, but it sure is interesting to think about. I personally get really into games at times, specially multi-player. I have to confess, the fist few times I ever did PVP in a MMORPG, I actually felt like I was been injected with some type of drug or something. I was literally shaking so bad to the point of not been able to hold the mouse, nor press a single key on the keyboard, allowing the other player kill me easily. Yes, it was like having an orgasm. It was horrible, but I eventually got used to the feeling, and over time I learned how to control myself since I basically got used to it and the experience was as amusing. So, I somehow believe there is a possibility that our body may perceive video games differently, aside from how many fps we are getting or how much blurriness is been applied.

 

[Kaldskryke]

I have to confess, the fist few times I ever did PVP in a MMORPG, I actually felt like I was been injected with some type of drug or something. I was literally shaking so bad to the point of not been able to hold the mouse, nor press a single key on the keyboard, allowing the other player kill me easily.

That's how it was with Asheron's Call for me, because you knew that if you died you'd be losing a handful of your most valuable items. So delightfully unforgiving! PVP with consequence was terrifying but so very satisfying when you won.