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LCD's = crap because...

OK, I see now why people are recommending 20"s. There is more S panels at the lower price.

So, let's suppose there are two LCDs, one smaller and one bigger. They have both the same pixel density and same panel type. Do they have the same image quality or does the bigger have worse?

Same pixel density? Bigger.

Same resolution? Smaller.
 
I take it your FW900 wasnt in proper working order? A properly working & calibrated FW900 is hard to beat. Unfortunately its getting harder to find them in top condition due to there age. Im still very happy with mine.

exactly, there was something wrong with your CRT. there is nothing to this day better than the FW900, period. no CRT, and no LCD by a long shot.:D

there's a reason the movie studio that created the movie '300' ordered 40 of these from accurateIT, because of their color accuracy;)
 
Do you still live at home? Cause with that many hrs of play and being 24yrs old, I find it hard to believe that you make time for work.

And how can you be a "serious gamer" and not know that wide screen gives you more to see then 4:3?
As posted earlier, wide-screen gaming mode doesn't allways give you a wider field of view. It all depends on the games developers.

This is a great link about widescreen gaming and how each game does it...

http://www.widescreengamingforum.com/wiki/index.php/Master_Games_List_-_C

widezh1.jpg


I do work, I'm a Network Admin for a large global logistics company. I work the standard 8-5 M-F and only sleep 3-4 hours a night.

This is my newly purchased home that I just finished renovating, it was a foreclosure owned by a hispanic family, the walls were brown, pink, purple, and had red baseboard everywhere. I replaced the cabinets in the kitchen with fresh white one from home depot and layed down tile counter tops. The washer and dryer were in the kitchen, I took them out and turned it into a bar and cut and opening in the kitchen and office to open things up, I did all the work myself...

http://members.cox.net/garritvisser/

Thanks for all the info on this subject. I'm not a cal style "pro gamer", I just do TWL and own it up in the pubs :D
 
I've ownd a TN, S-IPS and *VA panels for lcds and i had a 21" FD Trini aswell, I have to say there is a slight difference in movement, it's alot more noticable on the *Va and TN panels, S-IPS has no bluring for me, where as both my "8ms" TN and 12MS *VA panels did, u had a TN, i would say try the as-ips before u quit lcds :D
 
exactly, there was something wrong with your CRT. there is nothing to this day better than the FW900, period. no CRT, and no LCD by a long shot.:D

there's a reason the movie studio that created the movie '300' ordered 40 of these from accurateIT, because of their color accuracy;)

As long as I can still find a good working FW900, I'm not gaming with an LCD ever again, cept for lans. Unless of course, some new technology comes out.
 
lol @ the noob statement :eek:

Many of my coworkers use *recent* Sony LCD monitors. WTF are you talking about? :confused:

the monitor sitting on my desk is begging me to disagree with you

http://www.eclipseoc.com/image/DSCF6926.jpg

The old news about Sony: http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/other/display/20060825040442.html
they still sell some models bundled with Vaio PCs (and what was left in stock), but afaik no new monitors for the rest of the market.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benny View Post

BTW the legal issues tat held back Canon from building SEDs (flat fixed pixel CRTs) seem to have been resolved, so the big monitors (probably ~50'') will go in production early next year. This together with Sonys XEL-1 OLED-TV that features a dot pitch equal to a LCD Monitor gets my hope up that we'll see some good stuff for PC use before 2009.

Please provide a source.

It's been a while back, can't find the news about the SEDs. Canon bought the shares from the joint venture it had with Toshiba. The legal problem was that only canon had a license to manufacture SEDs.

I don't think we'll see a SED/FEDs monitor soon but Sony leaving the LCD market seems like they are willing to put their money on OLEDs
Most of the information about the XEL-1 (and other new monitor technologies) can be found on http://www.oled-display.net/ it's only 11'' (and expensive) but in production, and that's what counts :)

But maybe I'm just too optimistic ^^;
 
I haven't turned on my LCD since I got my FW-900, and I don't plan to neither. I play a lot of FPS's and I can say I lost a considerable amount of skill gaming with the LCD. For example, in CS:S I can get around 55% headshots per session of gungame on my lovely FW900, compared to 42% with an LCD. There you have it, scientific data points to CRTs being superior.

I rather like this thread since it has sparked some interesting discussion...
 
I haven't turned on my LCD since I got my FW-900, and I don't plan to neither. I play a lot of FPS's and I can say I lost a considerable amount of skill gaming with the LCD. For example, in CS:S I can get around 55% headshots per session of gungame on my lovely FW900, compared to 42% with an LCD. There you have it, scientific data points to CRTs being superior.

I rather like this thread since it has sparked some interesting discussion...

Could be purely psychological or just a crappy LCD.
 
Haha... If you honestly think the FW900 is going to make a difference... then go right ahead...

It warped my wooden desk because it weighed 100+ lbs, it was low-brightness, and even after calibration it didn't look "mind blowing" that everyone so-claims... I dropped it for a Soyo 24" (The $300 "discount") monitor and don't regret it. The cult that follows the FW900 is getting old...

3+ years ago you would have been right, but LCD technology is catching up...

Meh... I'm just happy I can take this one to LAN's... haha...
 
Man am I tired today, fell asleep right after work around 6pm-9pm last night then was up till 6am this morning playing COD4. I slept an hour to wake up @ 7am to go to work. I stopped by the quickie mart and got a bigass 32oz soda cup and filled it with the strongest coffee they had :D

Last night I figured out how to make my 21" Trinitron FD CRT into a hi-performance widescreen monitor so I get the best of both worlds (hella fast refresh rate with no input lag and widescreen capabilities) 1st step I did was change the resolution and find the highest refresh rate for each resolution then manually adjust the stretch horizontal adjustment bar on the CRT's OSD(on screen display) buttons on the front of the screen, this gives you a 1"-2" black bar on the top and bottom, but it really isn't noticeable, especially if you game with lights off.

I took 3 different screenshots all at the same spot and compared my results - I have screenshots at home and will show u guys later tonight.

4:3 1600x1200 @ 100hz - standard viewing
16:10 1680x1050 @ 100hz - wider viewing
16:9 1360x768 @ 144hz - widest viewing

In the past with my CRT I've used the standard 4:3 square format and until doing research for my buddy thats building a new system I've never realized how much of an advantage using widescreen really gives you. The 16:10 widescreen format at 1680x1050 is nice, but when running at such a high resolution it drops your frames like 1600x1200 does. So I decided to try out the 16:9 format at 1360x768 which gave me hella good fps and an amazing field of view even more then 16x10!!! In the past when playing the boat map I would constantly be looking left and right checking my flanks for the enemy, but now with 16:9 I can just walk down the middle looking straight ahead and see everything to my left and right giving me a huge advantage over someone using standard 4:3. Another thing that's sweet about running 1360x768 is that a Trinitron FD CRT can do it at 144hz which is a very high refresh rate giving you an amazing in game response to your movement.

For graphics tweaking I went into my Nvidia control panel and set the 3d graphics mode to Quality and in game AntiAliazing to 2xAA, with doing this it removed all jagged lines and the game looks immaculate. Also in the control panel I went to the color settings and turned the vibrance up to 23%, this made all the colors come to life and the game is much more vivid with deep rich color on my CRT, it's honestly night and day and I feel like Im playing a new game now with doing these easy changes.
 
from using 3-4 FD trinitron monitors, I had the experience that AS you raised the Refresh rate, the image became more blury, and not as bright, at 60Hz(which I couldn't stand, it would give me a headache and my eyes would hurt) its much sharper, so higher refresh isn't always a +
 
§·H·ï·Z·N·ï·L·T·ï;1031690439 said:
Man am I tired today, fell asleep right after work around 6pm-9pm last night then was up till 6am this morning playing COD4. I slept an hour to wake up @ 7am to go to work. I stopped by the quickie mart and got a bigass 32oz soda cup and filled it with the strongest coffee they had :D

Last night I figured out how to make my 21" Trinitron FD CRT into a hi-performance widescreen monitor so I get the best of both worlds (hella fast refresh rate with no input lag and widescreen capabilities) 1st step I did was change the resolution and find the highest refresh rate for each resolution then manually adjust the stretch horizontal adjustment bar on the CRT's OSD(on screen display) buttons on the front of the screen, this gives you a 1"-2" black bar on the top and bottom, but it really isn't noticeable, especially if you game with lights off.

I took 3 different screenshots all at the same spot and compared my results - I have screenshots at home and will show u guys later tonight.

4:3 1600x1200 @ 100hz - standard viewing
16:10 1680x1050 @ 100hz - wider viewing
16:9 1360x768 @ 144hz - widest viewing

In the past with my CRT I've used the standard 4:3 square format and until doing research for my buddy thats building a new system I've never realized how much of an advantage using widescreen really gives you. The 16:10 widescreen format at 1680x1050 is nice, but when running at such a high resolution it drops your frames like 1600x1200 does. So I decided to try out the 16:9 format at 1360x768 which gave me hella good fps and an amazing field of view even more then 16x10!!! In the past when playing the boat map I would constantly be looking left and right checking my flanks for the enemy, but now with 16:9 I can just walk down the middle looking straight ahead and see everything to my left and right giving me a huge advantage over someone using standard 4:3. Another thing that's sweet about running 1360x768 is that a Trinitron FD CRT can do it at 144hz which is a very high refresh rate giving you an amazing in game response to your movement.

For graphics tweaking I went into my Nvidia control panel and set the 3d graphics mode to Quality and in game AntiAliazing to 2xAA, with doing this it removed all jagged lines and the game looks immaculate. Also in the control panel I went to the color settings and turned the vibrance up to 23%, this made all the colors come to life and the game is much more vivid with deep rich color on my CRT, it's honestly night and day and I feel like Im playing a new game now with doing these easy changes.

REALLY good idea! Trying right now

edit: NIce! 16:9 is a bit small, but any 16:10 resolution gives a perfect 18.86 inch widescreen monitor. Obviously desktop work is better off with 4:3 full resolution, but gaming should be awesome at 1440x900, 1680x1050, 1920x1200.

To resize, you know that horizontal resolution is 16inches, so just stretch or shrink the vertical until it's 10inches.

from using 3-4 FD trinitron monitors, I had the experience that AS you raised the Refresh rate, the image became more blury, and not as bright, at 60Hz(which I couldn't stand, it would give me a headache and my eyes would hurt) its much sharper, so higher refresh isn't always a +

I noticed that too. 1600x1200 at 100hz is still plenty sharp and bright to me, though 60hz is a bit sharper. Unfortunately 100hz is a must for me, after using it so long I notice slight flicker even at 85hz depending on what's being displayed at the time.
 
REALLY good idea! Trying right now



I noticed that too. 1600x1200 at 100hz is still plenty sharp and bright to me, though 60hz is a bit sharper. Unfortunately 100hz is a must for me, after using it so long I notice slight flicker even at 85hz depending on what's being displayed at the time.


Flicker @ 85Hz isn't to hard to notice for many, especially when not looking directly onto the screen.
The blurriness could be a limitation of ether the aging screen or the analog signal quality, it's possible that even with high quality DACs the high bandwidth resolutions/refreshrate will be "softened" by the low pass filters (scroll down on http://www.anandtech.com/printarticle.aspx?i=1577 )... maybe it's still easy to mod them on newer cards but haven't seen any info on it the last years..

and, §·H·ï·Z·N·ï·L·T·ï which of the samsung LCD models did you test?
 
Haha... If you honestly think the FW900 is going to make a difference... then go right ahead...

It warped my wooden desk because it weighed 100+ lbs, it was low-brightness, and even after calibration it didn't look "mind blowing" that everyone so-claims... I dropped it for a Soyo 24" (The $300 "discount") monitor and don't regret it. The cult that follows the FW900 is getting old...

3+ years ago you would have been right, but LCD technology is catching up...

Meh... I'm just happy I can take this one to LAN's... haha...

1) the unit is 92 lbs. heavy, but not 'desk warping' unless its made out of cardboard.:) get a better desk.

2) you didnt calibrate it correctly. movie studios dont special order soyo $300 monitors, they order FW-900's FOR A REASON. especially when they're not made anymore.:D

LCD technology is NOT catching up, or the black levels would have been better by now. they havent improved in more than 2 years, and cannot improve any further. the back of an LCD is just that, liquid CRYSTAL. you know, the SILVER backround on the old digital watches.....thats on the back of your LCD's making it IMPOSSIBLE for them to have good black levels, with that silver background.

i can take my samsung 19" crt to lan's also, and do. i put it on the cart like everyone else and haul it in. the same cart OP use to bring in their LCD's.....


so no, in the endless CRT vs. LCD arena, the FW-900 is STILL top dog, no one can prove otherwise except for the weight issue, but to have the best you have to make some sacrifices.;)
 
twl = pro... r-o-f-l-m-a-o
but for all things gaming crt is better. With lcd you can force the refresh rate to 75hz if you use vga cable and the smooths it out little bit. With Dvi/hdmi you are stuck with 60hz. Only use the crt when you game and use an lcd for everything else. Save your eyes.
 
§·H·ï·Z·N·ï·L·T·ï;1031675454 said:
I'm very competative in getting this 1st spot and keep training everyday to keep this position....

Obsessed much?
 
twl = pro... r-o-f-l-m-a-o
LOL, TWL does have alot of noobs I know, but there still is alot of good comp there, but not like the comp in CAL.

Obsessed much?
LOL, just striving to be the best. Although if it's more team based gameplay, I'll make sure the team I'm on wins even if it means defending more then attacking, which doesn't allways get you in 1st place position :)
 
If your a die hard FPS you'll notice the game looking relatively smoother on a CRT @ 100hz compared to an LCD @ 75hz. No way around it. Just gotta learn to get used to it. Even 85hz CRT is night and day difference to me.
 
the back of an LCD is just that, liquid CRYSTAL. you know, the SILVER backround on the old digital watches.....thats on the back of your LCD's making it IMPOSSIBLE for them to have good black levels, with that silver background.
If you put a lump of silver in a pitch black room, does it still look like silver? No, it's black, just like everything else is when there is no light being transmitted to your eye.

The real reason why LCDs have pitiful black levels is because they have to be backlit, and the LCD can't completely block the light. Some light gets through and so you see shades of grey. If the LCD could manage to block ALL of the light from its backlight, it would be completely black, whether there's silver used in the panel or not. I highly recommend checking out the wikipedia article on LCDs.

The opacity of LCDs has been improving, so less light is getting through, so black levels are improving, albeit not too impressively. The next step to getting better black levels is to control the intensity of the backlight, which is why CEATEC 2007 had a whole bunch of LCDs being backlit by arrays of LEDs that can be individually dimmed.
 
how about a 32" Sharp Aquos 1080p 120hz :p

the movement might look smooth but the 120Hz are calculated extra pictures put in between the 60Hz signal. It would only use those spec as 120Hz if they added a dual link DVI or displayport for pc use, that could drive the panel outside of all HDTV specifications if they added the extra electronics to do so...
You might want to ask them directly but remember that the LCD TVs even had trouble to accept a real 24Hz signal and only got it right this model generation.
 
§·H·ï·Z·N·ï·L·T·ï;1031690439 said:
Man am I tired today, fell asleep right after work around 6pm-9pm last night then was up till 6am this morning playing COD4. I slept an hour to wake up @ 7am to go to work. I stopped by the quickie mart and got a bigass 32oz soda cup and filled it with the strongest coffee they had :D

Not to be mean or condescending or off topic, but there are other things in life besides playing video games till the ass crack of dawn. I know its a hobby and addiction, but only getting 3-4 hrs of sleep per night is not healthy and will weaken your immune system. Get some sleep and think of your health.

Your goal for next year: Get a girlfriend and get some sleep

Sorry, someone had to say it.
 
Your goal for next year: Get a girlfriend and get some sleep

Sorry, someone had to say it.

You're always be [H]Lite if you don't improve your attitude. There are more important things in life besides girls and sleep.
 
Not to be mean or condescending or off topic, but there are other things in life besides playing video games till the ass crack of dawn. I know its a hobby and addiction, but only getting 3-4 hrs of sleep per night is not healthy and will weaken your immune system. Get some sleep and think of your health.

Your goal for next year: Get a girlfriend and get some sleep

Sorry, someone had to say it.
Thanks for the warning, I'm doing fine though with the 3-4 hours of sleep a day that I've been getting for the past 3-4 years. I've only missed 2 days of work this year and I feel very healthy, I'm 6' 8" @ a healthy 270lbs. I don't have a girlfriend, but I do have some girls that are close if you know what I mean that I party with on the weekend for our beer pong tournys :D here is more info about me and my hobbies.... www.myspace.com/gvisser

Here's some widescreen difference's resized to 640rez viewing purposes...

4:3 1600x1200
1600xc1.jpg


16:10 1680x1050
1680bw8.jpg


16:9 1360x768
1360fn9.jpg


As you can see the 16x9 gives you much more viewable area of the map giving you a huge advantage over people using the standard 4:3 format.
 
For right now this is what COD4 looks like with my 7800gtx on my 21" Trinitron FD CRT, only a single 7800gtx since SLI isnt supported in COD4....

1360x768 @ 144hz, nvidia control panel 3d settings on Quality and 4xAA turned on...

This is how I play, 115fps...
iw3mp2007112004171920cw2.jpg


This is with Specular Map turned on, 82fps...
iw3mp2007112004173206xz0.jpg


This is with Specular Map and Shadows on, check out that drop in fps!, 47fps...
iw3mp2007112004175929au7.jpg
 
Not to be mean or condescending or off topic, but there are other things in life besides playing video games till the ass crack of dawn. I know its a hobby and addiction, but only getting 3-4 hrs of sleep per night is not healthy and will weaken your immune system. Get some sleep and think of your health.

Your goal for next year: Get a girlfriend and get some sleep

Sorry, someone had to say it.

I wanted to say it, but I knew everyone would get their panties in a bunch if it was said.
 
§·H·ï·Z·N·ï·L·T·ï;1031696962 said:
Thanks for the warning, I'm doing fine though with the 3-4 hours of sleep a day that I've been getting for the past 3-4 years. I've only missed 2 days of work this year and I feel very healthy, I'm 6' 8" @ a healthy 270lbs.


As long as you're doing well that's fine, but you should probably still strive for more sleep.

I use to get very little sleep as well because I like to maximize my time doing other things besides work, but the results aren't pretty in the long term. Now, I'm not going to go out on a limb and paint everyone who gets very little sleep with a wide brush, but not getting a good night sleep makes your brainwaves change and deviate from normal operation. There's a reason people are more irritable without sleep. I read an article not too long ago that lack of sleep causes the frontal lobe of your brain to shut off or defer information to other parts of your brain. The frontal lobe regulates your emotions as a person. So you can see where I'm going with this. Lack of sleep can be linked to psychological disorders, impairment and delusions to some extent. You can research more yourself below.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=15798944

Sleep Deprivation always catches up with us one way or another. Best to lay off the mountain dew, cheetos and COD 4 brah.
 
If you want to run life on very little sleep you need to look into Polyphasic sleep (google it) but this requres a job that you can take a nap every 4 hours or so.

You'll only pry my FW900 from my cold dead hands for something like SED, and that's mainly because of black levels / black detail. You end up with a lot of black detail lost on an LCD, or for that matter, almost any non-CRT digital display. I wish they made tiny plasma or SXRD monitors because they have IMO tolerable black/contrast ratio/etc.
.
On the LCDs lagging issue, which IMO only matters to super-expert type gamers (not me):
http://www.behardware.com/articles/632-1/lcds-images-delayed-compared-to-crts-yes.html

They do test and find a very few LCDs that have very tiny amounts of lag, though.
 
If you want to run life on very little sleep you need to look into Polyphasic sleep (google it) but this requres a job that you can take a nap every 4 hours or so.

I actually experimented with this. Its off-topic so I just want to take a moment to warn creative types away from this. After the living-hell of the first 60 hours, I actually did begin to feel as though I could function on a slightly less-than-normal level. My brain was very disinterested in letting me sit still and think about creating art, however.

Back to the CRT vs LCD debate... concerning gaming, CRT's have the edge in every area except widescreen aspect ratio (unless you count the FW900). So, its a mystery to me why developers cut widescreen from competitive games. It is an advantage, sure, but does it make up for motion blur, input lag, poor shadow detail and possibly lower frame-rate (from fixed resolution and V-sync)? No, surely not. In my opinion, in only serves to level the playing field a bit. I wish more games would use proper widescreen FOV.
 
I wanted to drop my 2 cents but I skipped almost every post so I apologize if what I've said has already been brought up.

But honestly..LCD's in my eyes are completely inferior to CRT's. They have their strengths but the weaknesses are just way too high. Yes, they are extremely light and easy to move around. Yes, the colors are vibrant, especially with wide gamut displays. They are also easy on the eyes since they don't use a scanning interface like CRT's.

But....When I pay $500 to $2000 or so for a monitor. I expect 0 dead pixels. We are paying for a product, we want what we pay for to work without defects. I find it inexcusable to purchase a monitor only to have dead black pixels around the display. Especially with this horrid "if you have 6 more dead pixels will replace it" policy, I find it inexcusable to have a slight delay/lag as well. Especially for those who do extremely tight video editing (Which I do), the lag is inexcusable and ends up ruining the timing of a beat intensive project. I was also a dedicated FPS gamer as well in many leagues...Once you get into the the upper tiers of the gaming leagues as well...having a delay like that really does hurt you. Many people claim that they don't notice it..But there are a handful who do...I just happen to be one of them. Dark levels have improved though...But they are still inexcusable for losing details in darker areas as well.

Personally I can't wait for FED...The fact that even if 20% of the field emitters failing won't cause any dead pixels is simply fantastic. You get all the benefits of the CRT based form in a flatpanel form. They are even cheaper to manufacture compared to LCD/Plasma. I might be getting my self a high end LCD display within th 1200-1700 price range in the next few months. But that's only because I am a bit worried on spending 700 dollars for a grade a- refurbished FW900. It does have a year warranty from accurateit.com ...But the fact that it's refurbished is still upsetting. We shouldn't have to put up with a technology that has way too many faults. I'm still on a CRT...and if they made FW900's still..I'd be purchasing a new one in a heartbeat. But unfortunately I doubt I could wait till 2009/2010 for a FED monitor. I'll just have to nab a refurbished FW900 or take the plunge into LCD's which I really don't want to do. But if I do nab a LCD..I'll still have to hook up a CRT as a secondary display to see the results/timing of my video editing projects.
 
LCD's = Here to Stay indefinitely.

Even if a new technology comes along, there will be crap monitors using that technology as well as high end monitors. Don't think that just because we're going to embrace a new technology means we're going to get better monitors without any problems. Expect to pay out the ass to get anything with good quality especially if it's new.
 
If your a die hard FPS you'll notice the game looking relatively smoother on a CRT @ 100hz compared to an LCD @ 75hz. No way around it. Just gotta learn to get used to it. Even 85hz CRT is night and day difference to me.

This is true .. Every game Ive compared (especially FPS games) appear smoother on my CRT vs. LCD (i have them side by side) especially when the game is running around 60fps and higher. Also when running without Vsync with a game in the 80 - 100+ FPS range the amount of tearing is FAR less noticeable on the CRT due to higher refresh rate. Heck even when running both monitors at 60Hz the CRT exhibits noticeabley less tearing. .I'm assuming this is due to the differences in the way each technology refreshes.
 
don't some (expensive) lcds now are capable of 124% color reproduction? that's far better than crts (which are 100% capable), no?

and lcd technology won't be replaced with something else, because of the infrastructure lcds already have now. unless something amazingly better comes (which is unlikely for near future) imo.
 
don't some (expensive) lcds now are capable of 124% color reproduction? that's far better than crts (which are 100% capable), no?

and lcd technology won't be replaced with something else, because of the infrastructure lcds already have now. unless something amazingly better comes (which is unlikely for near future) imo.

<scratches head> How is over 100% possible if 100% represents the full color gamut... Anyhow Ive seen high gamut LCD's such as the Dell 2407WFP-HC which feature 92% color gamut vs. the 72% found on typical LCD's ..but so far these high color LCD's suffer from higher than normal ghosting & motion blur.
 
it reproduce color that is not possible to be seen with crt technology i think. DLP tvs have something like that too.
 
the 100% refers to the NTSC color space, LED backlight LCDs are capable of having a larger gamut resulting in a higher maximum saturation of colors.
 
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