LCD monitors for gaming.

[Brusher]

Someone told me that they wasn't good for heavy graphics games. Can anyone explain? I've never owned one before. I saw a 30" (or so) LG at Best Buy that made me drool but the tag said it had a "natural res" of 1024x768. What do they mean by "natural"? Is this good or bad?

I won't sacrifice performance in the game I play for a nice looking monitor. I play a online WW2 flight sim with lots of realistic and fast moving graphics and sounds.

Thanks for any help.

 

[IceWindus]

Do you think me and dozens of other people would spend hundreds of dollars on LCD"s that wern't up to par to play our games? Kid, LCD"s have come a long way in the last few years and today they will only get better and better. Let me be the first to say the the world of CRT"s is officaly over with. With the upcoming technologies of SED and OLED displays in final stages of testing, the CRT world is over with, LCD"s are king, period.

Response rates for higher quality screens in the 12ms 8ms and soon 4ms has all be eliminated ghosting that has plauged LCD"s for so long. Granted, some people are more senstive to ghosting then others but MANY, MANY people will attest that once going to a high quality LCD, they will never go back to CRT ever again.

Let me give you a little taste what playing on a LCD. Let me introduce you Mr. 24" inches of gaming heaven, the one monitor that has changed many gamers lives on these forums and others across the internet, the Dell 2405FPW

 

[Cadaver]

LCD technology has evolved enormously in recent years. Previously, they were not good for gaming because they had low response times (measured in milliseconds). These days, they are very good, and most people will not be able to tell the difference between a good quality LCD and a CRT monitor (unless they are side by side, or a HardOCP reader).

The "natural" resolution they were talking about (I suspect they meant "native" resolution) refers to the optimal resolution for the screen. Unlike CRTs, which are able to display a wide variety of resolutions, LCDs display at their best quality when in their "native" resolution. A common native resolution for 17" and 19" LCDs is 1280x1024.

LCDs can scale the resolution to display something smaller like 1024x768, but this is often accompanied by reduced quality. In games this is often hard to see, but it often manifests itself as blurry text. The 30" display you saw could only display a maximum resolution of 1024x768. Given the size of the display, this was probably designed for television use first, and not as a computer monitor. This is not an ideal situation.

Icewind has inflamed my jealousy by showing pics of his 2405FPW. This is an excellent example of a truly awesome LCD display that works well in games, and many people have made the transition and never looked back.

In short, gaming on LCDs is good, and you don't have to sacrifice performance. Of course, there are probably people around who will challenge this assertion.

 

[mathesar]

Depends how picky you are with picture quality and how much you can tolerate motion blur , from my 3 week CRT vs. LCD side by side comparison LCD is not a good enough CRT replacement for gaming, Unless you dont mind having inferior black levels ,motion blur,weaker color accuracy ,inferior contrast ratios(average CRT has tested well above 3000:1) , viewing angle restrictions, and dont mind being stuck in one native res.

No thanks

Digital camera doesnt do it justice but a well calibrated Apreture grille / Trinitron based CRT offers the best visual quality hands down without the worry of response times / resolution restrictions, I had Far Cry in 2048x1536 mode in this shot,it actualy ran pretty good to lol:

 

[FlatLine84]

I game with a Dell 2001fp, before that I had a Sony Trinitron E540B. The only ONLY thing a really good CRT has over a really good LCD is being ably to run in multiple resolutions without any loss of quality relating to the display as well as damge to the display. The one other thing is pure black, but I don't really notice this with Even my Dell which is somewhat dated compared to today's panels, and it's still in the top end of gaming LCDs.

But yeah, the resolution thing bugs the crap out of me because I still use a 9800pro 128mb, and thing like Doom3 at 1600x1200 are kind of slow, source runs smooth though.....

 

[mathesar]

I game with a Dell 2001fp, before that I had a Sony Trinitron E540B. The only ONLY thing a really good CRT has over a really good LCD is being ably to run in multiple resolutions without any loss of quality

Not from my experiance ,The 2001FP is the LCD I was comparing it to (Sony G520P CRT)

The black levels on the 2001FP are VERY poor I couldnt handle it. Especially when watching movies or playing dark games like Doom 3 / Thief.

 

[Greenwit]

Do you think me and dozens of other people would spend hundreds of dollars on LCD"s that wern't up to par to play our games? Kid, LCD"s have come a long way in the last few years and today they will only get better and better. Let me be the first to say the the world of CRT"s is officaly over with. With the upcoming technologies of SED and OLED displays in final stages of testing, the CRT world is over with, LCD"s are king, period.

Response rates for higher quality screens in the 12ms 8ms and soon 4ms has all be eliminated ghosting that has plauged LCD"s for so long. Granted, some people are more senstive to ghosting then others but MANY, MANY people will attest that once going to a high quality LCD, they will never go back to CRT ever again.

Let me give you a little taste what playing on a LCD. Let me introduce you Mr. 24" inches of gaming heaven, the one monitor that has changed many gamers lives on these forums and others across the internet, the Dell 2405FPW

LOL! First to tell us 'the the world of CRT"s is officaly over with.' ???? You are the first? And so eloquent too.

Hilarious.

 

[FlatLine84]

Not from my experiance ,The 2001FP is the LCD I was comparing it to (Sony G520P CRT)

The black levels on the 2001FP are VERY poor I couldnt handle it. Especially when watching movies or playing dark games like Doom 3 / Thief.

I guess that's why it's called an opinion. Or maybe the 2001fp you have has a backlight leak problem, I know that was a problem with the earlier reasons. Or maybe my CRT was showing it's age, but I'm usually quite particualr about ghosting, color levels and the like, and I was quite impressed. It's just the whole native res thing that ticks me off.

 

[FlatLine84]

LOL! First to tell use 'the the world of CRT"s is officaly over with.' ???? You are the first? And so eloquent too.

Hilarious.

Yeah, I don't think CRTs are dead yet, I mean look at graphics designers, they still prefer CRT's over LCD's. I do think however LCD's are moving up in the scheme of things. I wish I could DLP for my comp though, the best of both worlds.....

 

[mathesar]

Or maybe the 2001fp you have has a backlight leak problem, I know that was a problem with the earlier reasons.

Mine had no leakage when looking at a black screen at night and it was a newer model:

 

[Spank]

If I could have goten a 24" ws crt for the same price as my 2405, i would have choosen the crt.

The only + thing this monitor got over a crt, is size

 

[FlatLine84]

Mine had no leakage when looking at a black screen at night and it was a newer model:

Well I don't know what to tell ya cause I really don't have that problem with mine, I've noticed it with other LCD's but this one is quite good.

 

[Greenwit]

Well I don't know what to tell ya cause I really don't have that problem with mine, I've noticed it with other LCD's but this one is quite good.

I had two 2001fps and each one had horrible blacks (as you would expect from a contrast ratio of 400:1) and choked on UT and other fast games.

 

[FlatLine84]

I had two 2001fps and each one had horrible blacks (as you would expect from a contrast ratio of 400:1) and choked on UT and other fast games.

Guess I just haven't had experience with other LCDs....

 

[mathesar]

If I could have goten a 24" ws crt for the same price as my 2405, i would have choosen the crt.

The only + thing this monitor got over a crt, is size

http://www.azatek.com/details.asp?iid=786 Doh!

Actualy ive never ordered a refurbished monitor but most people that have say they're fine.

 

[Asian Dub Foundation]

If I could have goten a 24" ws crt for the same price as my 2405, i would have choosen the crt.

The only + thing this monitor got over a crt, is size

QFT...

if they made a widescreen 20in plus CRT.. ill jump on that one... better for scaling lower rez

 

[Spank]

http://www.azatek.com/details.asp?iid=786 Doh!

I'm in sweden, they dont ship here

And I paid about 1/4 of the actual price for the 2405 and got a free 1505fp since i had to wait about one and a half month to get the 2405, I doubt I would find a crt for that money, not even a refurb around here.

But if the choice was available to me i would get the crt instead of the 2405.

 

[Acaid]

fast moving graphics

Don't waste your time with an LCD then. They are all inherently blurry while gaming.

 

[FlatLine84]

Don't waste your time with an LCD then. They are all inherently blurry while gaming.

You obviously haven't looked at high end ones. If you look at the current LG panels, and you can see blur, then you my friend are superman, or have had 1 too many no fears.

 

[Greenwit]

You obviously haven't looked at high end ones. If you look at the current LG panels, and you can see blur, then you my friend are superman, or have had 1 too many no fears.

LCD owners in general have zero credibility with me. Too many of them sound like IceWind. "Let me be the first to say the the world of CRT"s is officaly over with." LOL! If you want any credibility, cite review measurements, links, etc. from reputable sources.

 

[Flak Pyro]

got a LD90+ here, picture is great, not missing my 17inch CRT at all.

 

[IceWindus]

LCD owners in general have zero credibility with me. Too many of them sound like IceWind. "Let me be the first to say the the world of CRT"s is officaly over with." LOL! If you want any credibility, cite review measurements, links, etc. from reputable sources.

Careful what you wish for kid.

http://www.anandtech.com/displays/showdoc.aspx?i=2289

http://www.anandtech.com/displays/showdoc.aspx?i=2467

http://www.anandtech.com/displays/showdoc.aspx?i=2467

http://www.techwarelabs.com/reviews/display/samsung_19_lcd/

http://www.behardware.com/articles/511-1/screen-comparative-test-crt-vs-lcd.html

http://www.behardware.com/articles/572-1/19-lcd-monitor-survey-4-8-ms-tn-ips-va.html

http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=867944

http://www20.graphics.tomshardware.com/display/20050215/index.html

http://www.firingsquad.com/hardware/budget_lcd_roundup_0405/

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/other/display/lcd-guide.html

 

[jdunner3]

Wow FarCry looks good on that monitor. I gotta get that game for sure. Just switched from CRT to LCD myself....LONG over due. Games run perfect.

 

[Greenwit]

Careful what you wish for kid.

http://www.anandtech.com/displays/showdoc.aspx?i=2289

Taken from your first link, a good example of 'unbiased' and comprehensive review findings:

Dell 2001FP
Intensity Range Check 5
Black Level Adjustment 4.5
Defocusing, Blooming, Halos 5
Screen Uniformity and Color Purity 4.5
Dark Screen Glare Test 4.5
Primary Colors 4
Color Scales 4
16 Color Intensity Levels 4.5
Screen Regulation 5
Streaking, Ghosting 5

The 2001fp scores almost perfectly on a five point scale. And streaking, ghosting a perfect score. I know for a fact that is bogus....it lags like h*ll in UT. Who knows what black level adjusment is but if it is in regards to black level reproduction, I would rate it more along the lines of "1". The black reproduction is awful in Doom3. Where is the talk of the backlight bleeding (turn out your lights and watch a blank screen), quality control (pixels). What about other practical considerations....very little play in brightness settings (too bright), compromised dynamic range when brightness is reduced, tiny text which borks up web pages, being tied to one resolution and constraints with interpolation. How many people have had to return a Dell because of backlight bleeding, bad pixels, ghosting. In fact, if you read through most of the links you posted, very little mention is made of these things. Thanks for the links, it was just as I asked for. I didn't expect though this much LCD cheerleading.

 

[Cadaver]

Greenwit, you have made some very valid points. CRTs are indeed superior for gaming, but LCD technology is getting better all the time. A lot of big, quality manufacturers like Sony have stopped producing CRT models. Many of the CRTs you can purchase now seem to be of a lower quality (resolution and refresh rate) than those from previous times. The only option is to buy second hand or refurbished models. Correct me if I'm wrong on this point.

I think that what Icewind meant when he said that the "world of CRT"s is officaly over with" is that as CRTs are becoming a decreasing portion of global production, and of lower quality, LCD technology is increasing in production and becoming of higher quality. Am I right, Icewind?

I know a lot of people who have moved to LCD technology and never looked back, but it is clear you set yourself very high standards for screen quality.

 

[Roger]

And streaking, ghosting a perfect score. I know for a fact that is bogus....it lags like h*ll in UT.

The ghosting test on anandtech doesn't refer to what people usually think of when they say a monitor "ghosts" (motion blur). Instead, it refers to streaking/ghosting as interference which is what "ghosting" really is.

Don't know about the "Black level adjustment" though. I hope they don't mean the actual reproduction of blacks because the 2001FP has the worst blacks I've seen on an LCD.

 

[mathesar]

I know a lot of people who have moved to LCD technology and never looked back, but it is clear you set yourself very high standards for screen quality.

Ill bet you most of those people owned the average Shadow mask based CRT, although they looked pretty good they just didnt have the contrast punch & color vibrancy a Trinitron CRT offers, Hopefully by the time my current CRT dies LCD's will of improved more otherwise Ill have to go the CRT Refurb route (or buy a Lacie wich they still sell new) The current crop of LCDs just doesnt cut it for me IMO.

p.s. Greenwit is right about the 2001fp , it had the worst black levels ive ever seen on ANY monitor. It looked fine when browsing the web but when it was asked to display a lot of black it just didnt happen.

 

[FlatLine84]

Careful what you wish for kid.

http://www.anandtech.com/displays/showdoc.aspx?i=2289

Taken from your first link, a good example of 'unbiased' and comprehensive review findings:

Dell 2001FP
Intensity Range Check 5
Black Level Adjustment 4.5
Defocusing, Blooming, Halos 5
Screen Uniformity and Color Purity 4.5
Dark Screen Glare Test 4.5
Primary Colors 4
Color Scales 4
16 Color Intensity Levels 4.5
Screen Regulation 5
Streaking, Ghosting 5

The 2001fp scores almost perfectly on a five point scale. And streaking, ghosting a perfect score. I know for a fact that is bogus....it lags like h*ll in UT. Who knows what black level adjusment is but if it is in regards to black level reproduction, I would rate it more along the lines of "1". The black reproduction is awful in Doom3. Where is the talk of the backlight bleeding (turn out your lights and watch a blank screen), quality control (pixels). What about other practical considerations....very little play in brightness settings (too bright), compromised dynamic range when brightness is reduced, tiny text which borks up web pages, being tied to one resolution and constraints with interpolation. How many people have had to return a Dell because of backlight bleeding, bad pixels, ghosting. In fact, if you read through most of the links you posted, very little mention is made of these things. Thanks for the links, it was just as I asked for. I didn't expect though this much LCD cheerleading.

I seriously don't know what you're talking about, I have a 2001fp, and there's no ghosting or streaking in UT, the black level leave a little to be desired, but I have no backlight bleeding. You must have a bad one.

 

[mathesar]

I seriously don't know what you're talking about, I have a 2001fp, and there's no ghosting or streaking in UT, the black level leave a little to be desired, but I have no backlight bleeding. You must have a bad one.

I never noticed ghosting / streaking on my 2001FP, I tested for backlight leakage and there was no noticable 'bright spots' in the corners etc. But the black levels pretty much ruined it for me especially with my CRT sitting next to it as a refrence.

 

[FlatLine84]

Ill bet you most of those people owned the average Shadow mask based CRT, although they looked pretty good they just didnt have the contrast punch & color vibrancy a Trinitron CRT offers, Hopefully by the time my current CRT dies LCD's will of improved more otherwise Ill have to go the CRT Refurb route (or buy a Lacie wich they still sell new) The current crop of LCDs just doesnt cut it for me IMO.

p.s. Greenwit is right about the 2001fp , it had the worst black levels ive ever seen on ANY monitor. It looked fine when browsing the web but when it was asked to display a lot of black it just didnt happen.

For these reasons I do miss my Trinitron, I really don't think you can get better than a high end Trinitron, but they get quite dim after use. Who makes a good CRT anymore? I mean I'm not like "CRTS are D34dz0rz" or anything, and I'm really particular about my displays. But the only thing that really pisses me off about this LCD is the black levels and the whole native res crap with LCDs. I play mostly source so I don't notice the black levels, I don't really notice them in Doom 3 either. Once I decided I needed a new display to replace my sony E540 I knew I didn't want to lose the screen realestate, and I didn't want to spend more than $500 (which was how much I bought the E540 for new). So I was looking at different displays, and they had discontinued the E540, and the next one up was I think the GP somthing.... help me out here... And it was like $600 or $700 at the time. So I decided I was gonna branch out, and try somthing new. I did a lot of research on LCDs, and was really disappointed, but one of my friends had just gotten a 2001fp, and I brought my E540 over during a lan party, and I sat next to him to compare. My CRT really showed it's age, it was a lot more dim, it wasn't even close to being as sharp, and everything had a purpleish hue to it compared to the 2001fp. Plus the 2001fp is a fuck of a lot easier to lug around than a 21" CRT. I know most of the reasons the LCD looked better was due to my CRT getting old, but it just pretty much sold me on it, and I hit one of those Dell deals at the time, so I payed $462 for it. So I have better image quality than my E540, More screen realestate, brighter picture, easier to read text, more desk space, easier to cart to lan parties, puts out less heat. And the real kicker I don't have to worry about my damn refresh rate. I had stared at screens so mcuh I had problems with headaches no matter what refresh, and now I don't have to worry about it.

So in conclusion, No LCD's have not killed CRTs, I still think high quality CRT's look better than any LCD on the market. But for my application, I will take the 2 short-commings I have stated.

 

[wiretap]

hrm, I've never noticed any ghosting on my friend's 2001fp.. it looked good.
But I have a Viewsonic VX910 (19'' 1280x1024), and love it.. you can pick one up for about $349 in store with a warranty. Mine has no ghosting at all, no smears, no streaking, no uneven color.. none. Its not the brightest or highest contrast monitor, but I love it for gaming. It sure beats my Samsung 955DF CRT monitor (19'' 1600x1200).

 

[Slider19]

I'm willing to sacrifice the very slight loss in image quality or response times for more space that I get with an LCD.

Coming from a budget 5yr old 19" Trinitron CRT (bought for $290) to a budget 19" LCD w/ 12ms res time (bought for $255 AR) is pretty big upgrade for me. My LCD actually has better black levels! Response time is slightly slower on LCD, but barely noticable. The LCD's color fidelity is also better. This could just be because my CRT is so old.

I'm sure a high-end new CRT would beat up my LCD in IQ, but I have never owned a high-end CRT I guess and I like the extra space.

 

[Acaid]

Simply not true. Your monitor blurs while gaming. Now, when I say blur, I don't mean the integrity of the display is completely compromised, but a slight blur is nonetheless present.

Some folks can deal with it. In fact, some folks become completely oblivious to it. I respect that, but don't claim that it is nonexistent. The blur is an inherent, inescapable limitation of the technology. Perhaps once LCDs reach <2ms things will change.

 

[Slider19]

Was this directed at my post? If so, just wanted to clarify that I never said that LCD's don't blur. But like you said, just as with new audio equipment, your ears get used to the sound, your eyes also need some time to adjust to different qualities of an LCD.

And that's ok with me, especially since I am not a competitive online gamer.

 

[Glyndur]

I game quite freauently on my 37" Phillips LCD HDTV from the comfort of my couch and it is simply beautiful. No ghosting that I can perceive and since the resolution is set to 1280x720, I can turn on all the visuals in just about every game I have. I will definately be replacing my clunky Viewsonic P95f+b 19" CRT the next time the 2405 goes on sale.

 

[btf1980]

I use my 20" Apple Cinema Display for gaming and quite frankly it's fine for me. No blur, ghosting or any of that mess, at least not that I can tell with visually. Any of you guys that that tell visually, go join the Air Force and become a fighter pilot because you have 20/20 vision. Until then, i'll be hugging my sleek, sexy monitor, while you still hold on to your obese and ugly gal of a monitor. Hey, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, some guys like em thick!!

 

[FlatLine84]

Simply not true. Your monitor blurs while gaming. Now, when I say blur, I don't mean the integrity of the display is completely compromised, but a slight blur is nonetheless present.

Some folks can deal with it. In fact, some folks become completely oblivious to it. I respect that, but don't claim that it is nonexistent. The blur is an inherent, inescapable limitation of the technology. Perhaps once LCDs reach <2ms things will change.

Yeah, I'm going to be that much of a moron to say It's non existant 100%, that's absolutely a crock. I'm saying it's not noticable, and I'm the one who gets pissy about v-sync and texture tearing where no one else can see it, so if you can notice the blur from a 12ms panel and have it bother you, they really need to employ you as a tester for LCDs or somthing, because that's just insane you can see it. Please take that as a compliment.

 

[Greenwit]

I seriously don't know what you're talking about, I have a 2001fp, and there's no ghosting or streaking in UT, the black level leave a little to be desired, but I have no backlight bleeding. You must have a bad one.

You can call it whatever you want....the label is not important. What is important is that the 2001fp does not keep up with UT. The action is frenetic.....toons are moving across the screen at high speed, your toon is pivoting, jumping, looking 180 degrees and back in an instance. UT is just plain nasty on this monitor and if you don't notice it then you must not be moving much which means you are getting you a$$ handed to you.

Regarding backlighting and black level......turn your screen saver to 'blank' set it to one minute then turn off the lights. You will see backlighting in all it's glory. You say you have no backlighting....try this test. Say you don't play in the dark? Just note what you are seeing. You are seeing as black as your monitor will ever get (more like milky-gray). In LCDs backlighting and lack of good black levels is related. I tried two 2001fps and each couldn't hold its backlight.

 

[FlatLine84]

You can call it whatever you want....the label is not important. What is important is that the 2001fp does not keep up with UT. The action is frenetic.....toons are moving across the screen at high speed, your toon is pivoting, jumping, looking 180 degrees and back in an instance. UT is just plain nasty on this monitor and if you don't notice it then you must not be moving much which means you are getting you a$$ handed to you.

Regarding backlighting and black level......turn your screen saver to 'blank' set it to one minute then turn off the lights. You will see backlighting in all it's glory. You say you have no backlighting....try this test. Say you don't play in the dark? Just note what you are seeing. You are seeing as black as your monitor will ever get (more like milky-gray). In LCDs backlighting and lack of good black levels is related. I tried two 2001fps and each couldn't hold its backlight.

2 things, you've never played my at UT or any FPS so don't question my skill. 2nd, I do realise about the backlight, I was talking about it bleeding, mine doesn't seem to have that problem, it's even throughout the display. I game frequently in the dark bcause my office has poor lighting, and consentration is better without the lights on. If you've read my other posts, I did note that blacks arn't black. I am also not some ignorant person saying LCDs rule over CRTs, I'm simply saying, for the price, the side by side comparison, and the application, this suits me perfect. The thread was about LCD monitors for gaming, and I feel that for the price, size and ability of this display, it warrents taking a look at for gaming.

If you ever are playing CS, CS:S, Q3, UT, UT2k4, or Halo, my name is FlatLine, and I will be more than happy to teach you some stuff.

 

[Greenwit]

If you ever are playing CS, CS:S, Q3, UT, UT2k4, or Halo, my name is FlatLine, and I will be more than happy to teach you some stuff.

Nope, no, notta, nein, negatory or nyet. I don't play any of those anymore but I can hold my own in SoF2 quite well. On good nites I don't lose a DM and on bad ones I don't get out of the top three or so. Then again, if you are using an LCD and I'm using a CRT....I have no motion hang-ups, I can dail in any resolution I want......and I'll camp you a$$ in dark corners 'cause your monitor doesn't resolve dark corners worth a crap. So, in other words, no fair for you.