Kojima upset with Metal Gear Solid 4 and the PS3

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InorganicMatter

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I usually avoid this subforum, but I saw this tidbit on Digg and it was just too good to pass up:
http://kotaku.com/381412/kojima-disappointed-with-metal-gear-solid-4
Apparently the team overestimated what the PlayStation 3 was capable of.
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we weren't really aware of what the full-spec PS3 offered - we were creating something we couldn't entirely see
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But when we actually started developing the game, we realized there were a lot of restrictions and so it turned out how you see it today.
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Wonder how madly the PR department at Sony is scrambling right about now. :p
 
Then what the hell was all that smack he was talking about "only possible with the PS3" type stuff? Meh. MGS4 doesn't look very fun to me personally so I'll have to wait longer before I get a PS3 I guess.
 
Kojima should have just built it for the PC, or I can always get the 360 version... Oh wait...
 
a poor craftsmen always blames the tool, not the person using the tool.
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i skimmed through that article and it sounds to me he wanted MGS4 to be a PS4 title on the PS3
 
While I am sure the gameplay will be exactly what people expect, not many people are being blown away by the MGS4 visuals. Interesting comments in that other developers like Insomniac (Rachet and Clank, Resistance 2) and Naughty Dog (Uncharted) are still noting that they still have a lot to learn and plenty of room to grow, and Kojima is bashing the PS3 after one game. Yet Kojima claims to be using all of the PS3 power while making a game that looks worse than the previously mentioned games?

I think the MGS team likely made some poor framework and game engine decisions early on in a long development cycle, and got burned.
 
Sounds like he fell for the early hype of the Cell and Sony Marketing machine, but at the same time this is the guy that said dual layer blu-ray isn't enough.
 
ocellaris said:
While I am sure the gameplay will be exactly what people expect, not many people are being blown away by the MGS4 visuals. Interesting comments in that other developers like Insomniac (Rachet and Clank, Resistance 2) and Naughty Dog (Uncharted) are still noting that they still have a lot to learn and plenty of room to grow, and Kojima is bashing the PS3 after one game. Yet Kojima claims to be using all of the PS3 power while making a game that looks worse than the previously mentioned games?

I think the MGS team likely made some poor framework and game engine decisions early on in a long development cycle, and got burned.
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and who builds a games and then trashes it before its release, is this guy just dumb? if he wants to recoop their investment this isn't the way to go about it.

i think there is way more to the story then his pov, dev's are not know to trash talk their own products.
 
Anyone have the rest of the interview? They only quote and show one page...
 
russnuck said:
Kojima should have just built it for the PC, or I can always get the 360 version... Oh wait...
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Yea, the pc is definitely more powerful and even if the game you release doesn't perform too well at the top settings there is always going to be future hardware that will run it better.
 
sculelos said:
Yea, the pc is definitely more powerful and even if the game you release doesn't perform too well at the top settings there is always going to be future hardware that will run it better.
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ummm like cryiss?

shit it will be 3 gens of video hardware or more before that game can run smooth at max settings.

but i don't buy into the notion of releasing a product that doesn't work on current hardware, that 1,2 or more gens of hardware are needed untiil the full scale of a game can be seen. console or pc, by the time crysis can be played at max settings no one will ever care,

and consoles fall even more into this because they are not replaced or upgraded continuousy, so build your games for what you have PS3, 360 whatever not what you wish you had or thought you might have.
 
Mac[X-D];1032385478 said:
i think there is way more to the story then his pov, dev's are not know to trash talk their own products.
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I completely agree with you on that. I bet we are never figure out what really happened, however I would say Sony promised features/devtools to aid Kojima, Kojima spec'd some of the game around it, and Sony failed to deliver.
 
sculelos said:
Yea, the pc is definitely more powerful and even if the game you release doesn't perform too well at the top settings there is always going to be future hardware that will run it better.
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Right, so people suffer with a game that runs like crap until no one cares about it anymore, then a few people blow the dust off it and play it on hardware that can play it 2 years later :p
 
I was purposely pointing out that it is PS3 only, if Kojima was so unhappy with the PS3, why is it the only console that has MGS4? ;)

Here is the first half of the quote from the article...

We're using the Cell engine to its limit., actually. Please don't get me wrong, I'm not criticizing the PS3 machine it's just that...we weren't really aware of what the full-spec PS3 offered - we were creating something we couldn't entirely see.

I hardly believe that they have pushed the hardware as far as it can go.

"Apparently the team overestimated what the PlayStation 3 was capable of."

Kojima didn't actually say that.
 
russnuck said:
I was purposely pointing out that it is PS3 only, if Kojima was so unhappy with the PS3, why is it the only console that has MGS4? ;)

Here is the first half of the quote from the article...

We're using the Cell engine to its limit., actually. Please don't get me wrong, I'm not criticizing the PS3 machine it's just that...we weren't really aware of what the full-spec PS3 offered - we were creating something we couldn't entirely see.

I hardly believe that they have pushed the hardware as far as it can go.
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yea, but its funny how other dev's had said that the PS3 hasn't been maxed yet? so i wonder which is true?

or even with the 360 have either of them been pushed to their full potential, has one not the other or do they both have more to offer?
 
I'm sure neither has been pushed to their limits, as Kojima by his own admission said he wanted 10 steps forward. Anyone with such grandiose expectations from a single generational jump is setting themselves up to be diappointed.

From what I have seen from Insomniac I would say that the truth lies somewhere in between, but then again I guess we wont know for a while.

Anyone have the full interview for some perspective beyond just the negative? From other sites I have read they say that graphically MGS4 is gorgeous...
 
Kojima has impossibly high standards. He said the same thing about the last two MGS games, that it wasn't as good as it could have been etc...
 
Stereophile said:
Kojima has impossibly high standards. He said the same thing about the last two MGS games, that it wasn't as good as it could have been etc...
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Exactly, of course people jump to the conclusion "zomg the PS3 suxor cuz Kojima couldn't make the game to his vision"
 
I'm no programmer, however, I believe as long as the code becomes mature, it gets better and will utilize the hardware more efficiently, correct? I don't think the code is mature enough in MGS4 to utilize the hardware efficiently, but it may right now utilize 100% of it.
 
obs said:
Kojima is an absolute perfectionist
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Agreed.

Also, didn't he say he wanted to stop overseeing the MGS series after 3?

But he was even getting death threats to stay on.

If he bashes this game and Konami kicks him out, it's all good! :p
 
He says that they're using 100% of the Cell. I'd say that their programming is VERY un-optimized. The same has been true for previous MGS games.
 
Seems to be a mix of things here... he obviously bought into the hype on the CELL and doesn't feel Sony delivered, but then again he's always hard on his games too.
 
Psychotext said:
Seems to be a mix of things here... he obviously bought into the hype on the CELL and doesn't feel Sony delivered, but then again he's always hard on his games too.
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The problem with that is, the fact that the Cell isn't all that was shown a long time ago. He should have known that going into the project.
 
Maximus825 said:
The problem with that is, the fact that the Cell isn't all that was shown a long time ago. He should have known that going into the project.
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Yes, but the concept work would have started long before the PS3 was released... he wouldn't have known what the machine could or couldn't do at the time, only what Sony told him.
 
Psychotext said:
Yes, but the concept work would have started long before the PS3 was released... he wouldn't have known what the machine could or couldn't do at the time, only what Sony told him.
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Sony didn't develop the Cell, IBM did. Everyone knew what the Cell was capable of long before the PS3 was even announced.
 
Maximus825 said:
Sony didn't develop the Cell, IBM did. Everyone knew what the Cell was capable of long before the PS3 was even announced.
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You sure about that... because the specs changed not long before release as I recall. Also, IBM, Sony and Toshiba all worked together on the CELL. Besides that of course, it's not the only bit of hardware in the machine.
 
Maximus825 said:
He says that they're using 100% of the Cell. I'd say that their programming is VERY un-optimized. The same has been true for previous MGS games.
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you haven't really even seen teh game in action! From what I understand it looks fantastic. And I'm not talking about just screen clips and I'm talking about early previews reviewers have stated it being better that what you think you've seen. And you've only seen the middle east section

And BS about previous MGS games not being optimized. They were some of the BEST PS2 games graphically. I couldn't believe the graphic output they did with MGS3. There was a ton of detail added to that game. and MGS2 was a "launch game" and it still looks good.
 
Mac[X-D];1032385503 said:
ummm like cryiss?

shit it will be 3 gens of video hardware or more before that game can run smooth at max settings.

but i don't buy into the notion of releasing a product that doesn't work on current hardware, that 1,2 or more gens of hardware are needed untiil the full scale of a game can be seen. console or pc, by the time crysis can be played at max settings no one will ever care,
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Guess you haven't bothered to read the 9800gx2 evaluation? :rolleyes:
 
N3mi5is said:
Guess you haven't bothered to read the 9800gx2 evaluation? :rolleyes:
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i wouldn't call 28.7 FPS @ 1920x1200 with no aa and 8af all that great.

don't get me worng the game engine looks amazing if you can get it to run at its higher detail settings. but quad sli shouldn't a requirement.
 
Mac[X-D];1032386869 said:
i wouldn't call 28.7 FPS @ 1920x1200 with no aa and 8af all that great.

don't get me worng the game engine looks amazing if you can get it to run at its highest detail. but quad sli shouldn't a requirement.
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*laughing* like how everyone goes for the "insane" resolutions. *in quotes meaning its' sort of high*

Mainstream isn't running at that high of resolution on pcs
 
Netrat33 said:
*laughing* like how everyone goes for the "insane" resolutions. *in quotes meaning its' sort of high*

Mainstream isn't running at that high of resolution on pcs
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well blame kyle he tested at 1600x1200 and 1920x1200 both with same results

i am not going to get into a debate over this but unrealistic specs are dumb on any game platform,

and you make my point for me mainstream can't run crysis and there isn't enough enthusist to make it a game like crysis profitable
 
Netrat33 said:
MGS2 was a "launch game" and it still looks good.
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No it wasn't. I remember reading months and months of magazine previews AFTER I bought my PS2 until the game finally came out.

edit -
PS2 Release Date: Oct 26, 2000
MGS2 Release Date: Nov 14, 2001
 
If MGS: 4 is pushing the PS3 as hard as the PS3 can be pushed how do they explain games like Uncharted, which Naughty Dog states they can improve upon?

I just think MGS: 4 is underwhelming and DOES NOT use the PS3 to full power. However, Kojima wants to save face and the game hasn't even been released yet?
 
jaguax said:
No it wasn't. I remember reading months and months of magazine previews AFTER I bought my PS2 until the game finally came out.

edit -
PS2 Release Date: Oct 26, 2000
MGS2 Release Date: Nov 14, 2001
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*sigh*

that's why i said " Launch " notice the quotes. a year after a ps2 comes out is still early a consoles game development.
 
Games probably won't ever look the way he wants them to. Soon as you have a finished product, I'm sure you can still see things that could be improved... things for the next title, or things that will just take a next generation of hardware to be done.

I think the problem is that everyone keeps expecting our games today to look like cinematic. As graphics for games gets more detailed, so do the graphics for cinematic. Until graphics look like the Matrix, I don't think you'll ever be able to please all the nerds.
 
Maximus825 said:
Sony didn't develop the Cell, IBM did. Everyone knew what the Cell was capable of long before the PS3 was even announced.
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The cell was actually suppose to be the all in one solution. It was suppose to be the CPU and Video card. Obviously that didn't work out so the PS3 got a Nvidia GPU. Some people, use the PS3 in a cluster/farm with linux to do graphics rendering and ray tracing with the cell. If the Sony could of actually used the cell as a CPU&GPU, the PS3 could possibly be a lot better. It would have saved the cost of the GPU and the memory wouldn't have been divided in 2. Maybe they could of even put more memory in with the savings of the GPU.
 
It's Ps3s early life cycle still but over time i think hideo will release another exclusive franchise on the Ps3, and he will be proud of his work since how he would have alot of more time with his new project. But overall hideo and his team put alot of work into the last installment for the mgs franchise plus for the Fans it's going to be such a great game thatll be one of the most important games of gaming history.

mgs4gotp3bv1.gif
 
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