Klipsch Amp failure fix - Save your 60 bucks!

J

jen4950

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Apr 25, 2001
Messages
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Stop! Save Your 60 Bucks!!!! - Cost of sending it back to the factory for a fix.. Only for the electrically inclined and ambitious!

The engineer in me wouldn't let me be content with a broken set of $500 speakers without any real damage. So I opened it up and inspected the situation. If they're really broken... let's make sure, and make sure it's irreversible!! :D

Got out the trusty multimeter and started testing traces- nothing's really burnt out that's obvious. And then I saw a lead that had come loose from it's socket. This was right below the only mechanical relay in the whole assembly.

I repaired the connection.. No Dice. BUT. I started playing around with the relay- shorted out the actuating contacts on the relay, and voila! Back rockin'!

So the answer to this is the relay is shot- you turn it off, and it won't kick back in. A simple 2 dollar retail part that anyone here can replace. This makes sense- it's one of the only mechanical parts in the whole thing- electronics don't just die.

So- SURE! We'll charge 60 bucks to change out a 2 dollar relay (10 cents at cost) ..DUH!

Oh and be careful around 120V- that shit stings a little :D (not from this experience, just in general..) So unless you are comfortable in your electronic fixing skills- don't leave it plugged in while poking around. :D

Part number: get it off the pic..

Not sure if this fixes other people's problems, but it fixed mine!

PICS:

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Full Resolution Notice the singed PCB- I couldn't find my soldering iron, so I used my torch :D

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Again, PROCEED AT YOUR OWN RISK!! I'm not claiming any responsibility explicit or implied about the safety or sucess of any operation described herein! PROCEED AT YOUR OWN RISK!!
 
Wow, that sub's got more electronics then I would have thought.

I'm always impressed when others can take apart something and fix it. It seems now a days this is becomming a rare occurance, with the way electronics have changed.

Most impressive!
 
Update:

I found the part from a couple supply houses.. Problem was I don't need 425 of them :D

I finally found a place with a $30 minimum order- so I will have like 25 extra relays- I'll sell them for 2 bucks each mailing included.. PM me if you are interested!
 
towert7 said:
Wow, that sub's got more electronics then I would have thought.

I'm always impressed when others can take apart something and fix it. It seems now a days this is becomming a rare occurance, with the way electronics have changed.

Most impressive!
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Well it is the audio amps for 6 speakers in it.
 
what was wrong in the first place? my brother has a set of klipsch speakers that no longer work, but i havent looked at them closely.

dualdrop[H]enia
 
OP i do gotta say that DIY desk kicks most ass, everybody really ought to check out his thread if they haven't already.

Oh yea, good job with the amp too :D
 
It cost me 90 bucks to send mine back. It still has not been repaired either I have been waiting over a month now. :(
 
My dad is an audio technician, so if I have any problems, i'll just show his this. Luckly, my speakers have been running solid *knock on wood* He repairs home recievers, bose systems, jbl etc....this shouldnt a problem :D I'll show him these pics just for fun when he gets home, but does it look like the amp is made out of good parts? Is it good amp in general? Sounds good, but I don't know much about the actual amp.
 
WOW. Super post. I'm pm'ing you now and I'll take 2 of those. I've had 2 of my Klipsch's blow out.
 
A bit unrelated, but I got quite a performance boost by replacing the stock power cord on mine with a signal cable magicpower.. not subtle ymmv
 
Circuitbreaker8 said:
My dad is an audio technician, so if I have any problems, i'll just show his this. Luckly, my speakers have been running solid *knock on wood* He repairs home recievers, bose systems, jbl etc....this shouldnt a problem :D I'll show him these pics just for fun when he gets home, but does it look like the amp is made out of good parts? Is it good amp in general? Sounds good, but I don't know much about the actual amp.
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I'm a structural engineer, so this is a bit out of my element; but I do know just enough to be dangerous :D Add a couple beers for courage.. :D

Looks to be built pretty well. Having this relay located where it is implies to me that they knew it was a weak point or component - so place it where it would be easy to fix.
 
santaliqueur said:
what was wrong in the first place? my brother has a set of klipsch speakers that no longer work, but i havent looked at them closely.

dualdrop[H]enia
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They wouldn't play anything- nada.

Since I shorted out the relay, they have been working..

Again, I know just enough to be dangerous.
 
could you circle in the pictures what you did?

I have a promedia 5.1 ultra in which I try to turn it on.. but i just hear a the sound of the system trying to powe up
I opened one time and didnt see anything burn.. so it had me puzzled
 
I'm hoping not to burst your bubble, because it would be great if that was all there was too it.

However, relays typically don't just die either; in fact I would say that they are probably more robust than much of the silicon in there. Have you removed the relay from the board to test it or otherwise confirm that is actually faulty?

I have seen this type of problem with many amplifiers that I have repaired myself - I believe it is a rather common symptom. More often than not the real culprit is in the protection circuitry that powers the relay. The purpose of that relay is usually to provide for 'anti-thump'; it removes the output of the amp until the power supply has stabilized. Often there is also a connection to some type of overlaod detection as well.

By manually closing the relay contacts you are just forcing the speaker to be connected to the amp at all times, which obviously makes it work if no other major problem exists. However, in addiotion to potential future damage from 'thumping' at power up, there may also be some underlying problem that the amp was trying to protect itself from. Keep an eye out for any unusual activity.

[edit]

As an aside, I have a 1974 pinball machine. Not a single piece of silicon, not even a diode. Just banks and banks and banks of multi-contact relays. Still works just fine 32 years later (and a wonder to watch operate). If you try to find an older solid-state machine, odds are the electronics are shot. Cars use relays to control many functions, including the horn, headlights and cooling fans. Yet of any electrical problem I have ever observed in someones car, relays were never the problem. My point is that although relays can indeed fail, more often than not it is some solid state part that fails first.
 
As an aside, I have a 1974 pinball machine. Not a single piece of silicon, not even a diode. Just banks and banks and banks of multi-contact relays. Still works just fine 32 years later
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i did an internship at a nuclear power plant, and the control room's back panel had an enormous wall containing what looked like a couple thousand relays, all from the early 70s, when the plant was built. i'm sure they replaced some over the years, but most of them looked pretty old.
 
santaliqueur said:
i did an internship at a nuclear power plant, and the control room's back panel had an enormous wall containing what looked like a couple thousand relays, all from the early 70s, when the plant was built. i'm sure they replaced some over the years, but most of them looked pretty old.
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There's really not much to go wrong. The electromaget coil will last virtually forever, and the contacts are typically tungsten or another similarly corrosion resistant hardened material. Additonally, the contacts are usually mounted so they slightly slide over each other instead of just going up and down, providing a self cleaning wipe effect when they close.

[edit]

Though I guess as with everything these days, they just don't make anything like they used to. Almost everything we buy today is throwaway not worth repairing crap. Don't even get me started :p Maybe that's why I have such a fondness for older equipment.
 
agent420 said:
I'm hoping not to burst your bubble, because it would be great if that was all there was too it.

However, relays typically don't just die either; in fact I would say that they are probably more robust than much of the silicon in there. Have you removed the relay from the board to test it or otherwise confirm that is actually faulty?

I have seen this type of problem with many amplifiers that I have repaired myself - I believe it is a rather common symptom. More often than not the real culprit is in the protection circuitry that powers the relay. The purpose of that relay is usually to provide for 'anti-thump'; it removes the output of the amp until the power supply has stabilized. Often there is also a connection to some type of overlaod detection as well.

By manually closing the relay contacts you are just forcing the speaker to be connected to the amp at all times, which obviously makes it work if no other major problem exists. However, in addiotion to potential future damage from 'thumping' at power up, there may also be some underlying problem that the amp was trying to protect itself from. Keep an eye out for any unusual activity.

[edit]

As an aside, I have a 1974 pinball machine. Not a single piece of silicon, not even a diode. Just banks and banks and banks of multi-contact relays. Still works just fine 32 years later (and a wonder to watch operate). If you try to find an older solid-state machine, odds are the electronics are shot. Cars use relays to control many functions, including the horn, headlights and cooling fans. Yet of any electrical problem I have ever observed in someones car, relays were never the problem. My point is that although relays can indeed fail, more often than not it is some solid state part that fails first.
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I completely agree- see above post-

I have a 1981? Pinbot pinball machine- they sure don't make shit like they used to! :D
 
Always liked the Pinbot. I've got a Gottlieb Super Soccer. Would also like to get an 80's solid state machine to go along side it, and ultimately a Twilight Zone when I win the lottery :D

Back to topic: If you have a voltmeter you can (carefully) check the coil pins to see if the relay is getting a power signal which would close the contacts. If you don't see about 24V on the coil pins then your problem is further up the line. Alternatively, you could remove the relay from the board and give it power, while checking for continuity at the contacts.
 
agent420 said:
Always liked the Pinbot. I've got a Gottlieb Super Soccer. Would also like to get an 80's solid state machine to go along side it, and ultimately a Twilight Zone when I win the lottery :D

Back to topic: If you have a voltmeter you can (carefully) check the coil pins to see if the relay is getting a power signal which would close the contacts. If you don't see about 24V on the coil pins then your problem is further up the line. Alternatively, you could remove the relay from the board and give it power, while checking for continuity at the contacts.
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That was my original plan; and then I shorted out the pins and everything worked again; I traced the lines starting at the wall plug- and got to the relay..
 
Well, I just gave my non-Ultra to someone to try and fix for me. If he succeeds, then we'll probably sell it with the controller (sorry, keeping satellites) on ebay or try and sell it to someone in the Tampa Bay area. I'll definitely tell him to keep checking this thread though.....some useful info here. :D
 
jen4950, what problem were you having with the speakers exactly?

mine have been dead for oveer a year. it started out where the sats would cut out occasionally , the subs still kicked thou. then it started getting worse untill they would only work for a few minutes before the sats cut off. every now and then i will turn them on and they will work for a little while then die.. when they work they sound great.
 
I believe my amp bit the dust to, but I dont think it's the relay. I posted the below on the klipsch forums http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/672831/ShowPost.aspx It shows pics of what I'm talking about. Any help would be appreciated.

After taking the guts out of the amp and looking around I noticed there were burnt sections on the back and front of 5 of the middle boards which I assume are designated to a speaker each. The board on the end identical to the rest didn't have any burnt spots, but it also recieved its power from a different location than the others. Would this be cause by a capacitor failure issue or a component that that turns the A/C into a steady D/C current that reduces A/C spikes?
Anyone have a clue what the burnt things are? They look like resistors, but I dont know much about this stuff. Obviously they aren't the cause, but may need to be replaced as well.

If any one is electrically incline and could tell me which little component it may be causing the problem I would appreciate it.
 
I(illa Bee said:
off topic sorry but what camera are you useing?
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Canon D20; EF 24-105mm f/4 L IS USM - just bought the lens; super happy with it :D
 
squashie8 said:
I believe my amp bit the dust to, but I dont think it's the relay. I posted the below on the klipsch forums http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/672831/ShowPost.aspx It shows pics of what I'm talking about. Any help would be appreciated.

After taking the guts out of the amp and looking around I noticed there were burnt sections on the back and front of 5 of the middle boards which I assume are designated to a speaker each. The board on the end identical to the rest didn't have any burnt spots, but it also recieved its power from a different location than the others. Would this be cause by a capacitor failure issue or a component that that turns the A/C into a steady D/C current that reduces A/C spikes?
Anyone have a clue what the burnt things are? They look like resistors, but I dont know much about this stuff. Obviously they aren't the cause, but may need to be replaced as well.

If any one is electrically incline and could tell me which little component it may be causing the problem I would appreciate it.
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Looks like you jammed out with that thing for a while :D I've been too busy at work; will dive into it later in the week
 
squashie8 said:
I believe my amp bit the dust to, but I dont think it's the relay. I posted the below on the klipsch forums http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/672831/ShowPost.aspx It shows pics of what I'm talking about. Any help would be appreciated.

After taking the guts out of the amp and looking around I noticed there were burnt sections on the back and front of 5 of the middle boards which I assume are designated to a speaker each. The board on the end identical to the rest didn't have any burnt spots, but it also recieved its power from a different location than the others. Would this be cause by a capacitor failure issue or a component that that turns the A/C into a steady D/C current that reduces A/C spikes?
Anyone have a clue what the burnt things are? They look like resistors, but I dont know much about this stuff. Obviously they aren't the cause, but may need to be replaced as well.

If any one is electrically incline and could tell me which little component it may be causing the problem I would appreciate it.
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looks like you got a few bad resistors... the last board you speak of apperes to be the power supply control board.... it is sending power to the other 5, and the five boards look to be the sat amps... (being as theres five and all...) how modular is the whole package??? i can see that there is a hard soldered wire chain ganged acrossed all of the boards, but beyond that is any thing alse "socketed" or is it all hard soldered???

and thoughts look to be some faily wimpy cables for the power dilvery, i would beef them up.... but thats just me.. ;)

/edit hmm.. theres more to it... each board looks more like channle control after i looked at the other pics i see there is 6 channles and not 5... im curious to know if that last channle is for the sub or for the center... its one or the other... and im betting its center

any way... if you can get a closer clear shot of ONE of the control boards, front and back, it would go along way

thore
 
Here is a top down pic of the whole thing. There is actually 7 boards in that middle section the far right is the power, the middle 5 are the sat's and the far left is the sub. Notice power is going to the sub board from a different location than the sat's. However, all of it comes from the bottom left board. I assume that is power jumping to all. All middle boards are attached to the top main board, but the power board also leads to the bottom right board and then from there it jumps to bottom left and so on. The sub board is not burnt like the rest but it is still identical from apparence to the sat boards. I can't figure out how to get pics on here so here is the link to the pic I'm talking about on klipsch forums. http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=672831

also by the resistors it says r39 and r40 right under each one. On the outside of those little white boxes it says w1 and w2. Of course r39 is in one box and r40 is in the other. I have no clue if that's helpful. Thank's for looking into this though :)
 
ok that gives me alot better idea of whats going on, the top most board looks like its the imput and preamp stage it may have some controls for power on when a signal is recived, but dont know for shure with out looking at the board its self.. the right most vertical board is for power control, its the 120vAC input ciruit the reason there is so much here is due to the auto switching capabilitys... the other 6 boards are deffinatly channel amps, each board is its own amp, and after looking at the manule im certain of all of this now...

the r30 and r40 just tells me they are resistors... nothing more, there are color bands on the resistors them selves, they will give you the values you need to replace them (google resistor values ) i dont know if i would change the resistor value with the exception of maybe going it MIL spec resistors, (tighter tolerences never hurt any thing.. ;) )

as for why there going bad... is beyond me , but if your going to delve into this the one thing i would do would be to back track the traces from the resistor solder pads to the next solder pad, grind off the covering on the copper trace, and lob solder on it to beef up the curcuit and possibily replace the next componets both befor and after the resistors... as im not shure which way the curcuit goes... about 36 parts need to be replaced by my count would take a good hour to do with the right tools... 3 with out

thore
 
^ Your assumptions of the board functions are correct.

Those fried resistors are a typical result of blown output transistors. When they go, they almost always take their biasing resistors with them. It's just that the packaging of the trasistors doesn't burn up like the resistors do. Replacing just the resistors won't help, they'll just instantly fry again. And unless you have the equipment to test the rest of the circuit, it is difficult to tell whether there are other damaged components as well. Short answer - this would be a prime candidate for the $60 factory repair if it applies in this case. I'm sorry to suggest that it would be highly unlikely that simply replacing the parts you suspect are bad will lead to a complete repair.

That modular assembly method of amp-card-per-channel is very comoon these days. Almost every newer amp I have worked on is designed in this manner. It is hard to tell from the images, but a lot of today's equipment uses some type of packaged power amp ic instead of discrete transistors that the older amps used. This can make repairs more difficult (and expensive) because sometimes those ic's are hard to locate.

I don't care what any marketing says, my old 70's Kenwood stereo amp weighs like 40lb and puts out an honest 100W channel, and I think it both sounds better and may even be more 'punchy' (sounds more powerful) than a lot of the newer cheesy 10lb 500W HT recievers I have heard. You know there's something going on when a 200W amp has a power transformer 4X the size of a "500W" amp. I don't know, maybe they are using the metric system for watt measurements now ;)

I really just think mass marketed electronics suck these days.
 
Thanks for the help I do appreciate it. After reading a bit on the forums at klipsch I ran across someone talking about the bash controller in the amp and how it does something with the power. Anyways, I was looking at the bottom left board and where the controllers go it is marked Bash hc1012, but the actual controller is marked hc1011. Wonder what the difference is and where could I get the right controller or either if thats part of the problem?


Not real sure what to do about the amp....It's shot and gonna cost money either way, I just thought I might give a first time go at electronics :)
 
agent420 said:
^
I don't care what any marketing says, my old 70's Kenwood stereo amp weighs like 40lb and puts out an honest 100W channel, and I think it both sounds better and may even be more 'punchy' (sounds more powerful) than a lot of the newer cheesy 10lb 500W HT recievers I have heard. You know there's something going on when a 200W amp has a power transformer 4X the size of a "500W" amp. I don't know, maybe they are using the metric system for watt measurements now ;)

I really just think mass marketed electronics suck these days.
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YUP, a good judge of how much power any amp can put out is to look at the power transformer. Many of todays multichannel amps are rated using total watts across all channels, however this is not how much power can be applied to all channels at once. So take a 5x100W amp, this says it can drive 5 channels to 100W but does NOT say it can drive ALL 5 channels at 100W at the same time. This is a very common marketing trick almost ALL manufactors use. My Denon 3805 is like this I know, in fact if you dig into the specs it will claim a different rating for 5 channels driven at the same time. My Denon has a rating of 7x120Watts, I know it is NOT a 840 Watt amp, because it only has an 850VA transformer. Read this review on page 10 at the bottom it talks about this.
http://www.audioholics.com/productreviews/avhardware/Denon-AVR3805_review10.php

This is not uncommon, then other manufactors are even worse by talking about peak power and not telling you at what distortion or freq. the rating is for.
 
I had the first revision the non-ultras. After about 1.5 years the amp just stoped working. I contacted Klipsch and since it was still under warranty and I had my receipt, they sent me a shipping label and rma number. Within a week I had a brand new set of upgraded Ultras at my door. The best thing is I kept my satellites from the first set. However, I don't think it will go that well a second time... That's why I'll need two of those relays. ;)
 
Ok without all the electrical engineering jargon ... how many of you techies think this relay deal is a fix and how many don't?

Just reply with a ... I think it will fix it or I think it won't fix it. Or .. it's for sure worth a shot.

maybe just put it in the heading and go on with you drawn out explainations
 
Won't fix it.

[edit]
But I've found making informed decisions has always worked better for me. Sometimes I even learn something.
 
The official cause of the original Promedia 5.1's dying, according to Klipsch, was a "hybrid transistor" failure. I wouldn't be surprised if the Ultra 5.1's had nearly the same problem.
 
in the cases where that speaker pop on and off again, it might fix it and is worth a shot, in the cases where the there is mass ammounts of distortion, static or non power related poping it wont do a damn thing... his fix is only for the power switching section, where as squashies problem has nothing with the switching function of the amp at all, the transformer in his case may be over volting or theres a bad componet infront of the resistors that have gone bad, his is more likely at the fualt of the Klipsch, "hybrid transistor" failure that big[h] spoke of

it looks like there are numerous cases of problems with these speakers, and im happy i didnt buy a set when every one was raveing about them...

thore
 
Is this "hybrid transistor" the same as the BASH HC1011 controller? I emailed bashaudio.com to ask them some questions etc...so far no return email Prolly wont reply to it :)
 
thore said:
it looks like there are numerous cases of problems with these speakers, and im happy i didnt buy a set when every one was raveing about them...
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Sat quality and amp failure was the main reasons why I got of multimedia sets altogether and went component. I wanted an amp that won't die on me anytime soon. :D
 
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