Kimera Industries Cerberus: The 18L, mATX, USA-made enclosure

Unless you add some perforations to the front panel ;)
Keep the angled face but decrease its depth, close the side openings if necessary, but add the circular vents as on the sides and top...
Then you've got ventilation holes on pretty much every side though, which is too much IMO. Aesthetically, I mean. If you want to put size over every other consideration, then sure. Punch it full of holes. It's not what I'd want to do, though.

Necere's assessment is essentially the same as our own. We do not want to remove the front panel given aesthetic considerations, and we can't really make it shallower without significantly impacting airflow.


I personally wouldn't mind the extra 10mm for more features.

10mm seems significant because we're comparing with what we have before, but if you just show the specs to someone who's never heard of Nova, they' won't be like "that seems... a little bigger than it should be". What they might be like is "Oh cool, it can accommodate feature XX!"

While I was very much opposed to adding 10mm to the Ncase for limited extended hardware support, I do see the advantages in this case's case.

In reality, it's an extremely minor difference that you'd never notice. A 3% change in volume is basically nothing; the impression of physical size will be basically the same. The obsession with volume measurements at this point is a numbers game for people to brag about, and nothing more.

Ah, but unfortunately that numbers game is important to a lot of people, and could very well influence buying decisions. But I agree in principle that the difference would be almost indistinguishable beyond the stats on paper.

It's worth noting that we'd probably want to add closer to 15mm (1.5cm) to more broadly support front-mounted hardware with most configurations. But that assumes that we'd decide it's worth adding, period.


After re-reading PP's post above, I have a major concerns about what you say that additional 10m will enable in terms of front-mounted radiator support.

First off, the GPU card lengths announced are in fact only the PCB lengths, and you need to add around 2-3mm to find the card length from back of the PCI bracket to the tip of the card. So, a 10.5" card is actually around 269-270mm.

With the added 10mm, total clearance (end-to-end inside the frame) will be 324mm.

The measurements I specified have tildes to indicate that they aren't precise down to the exact mm. Aiboh has yet to take a caliper to Nova and the various components :p But in general we agree with your assessment that the card is 2-3mm longer than the stated length, as a result of the bracket.


With the 269mm for the 10.5" card, you're left with 55mm "total" clearance.
Technically, a 25mm-thick fan and a 29mm-thick rad can fit, as in using the "teleportation" spell :p

Not really - a partial list of the AIO's that would fit in that clearance would include Corsair's H40/H55/H60/H110i GT/H100i, Enermax's Liqtech 240, Deep Cool's Captain 240, Cooler Master's Seidon 240M/Nepton 240M/Glacer 240L, Silverstone's TD02-E... Granted, a few of these are just 1-2cm shy of 55cm, but some have more room, and that's why we'd want to add closer to 15mm if we were to add anything at all ;)


But, how those will go in and out practically, is the big question.

You can install the card first, rad second, and then push in the fan(s) in that tight spot, but then screwing the fan(s) on the rad will basically not be possible. Suppose you fit all those in, if you need to take the graphics card out, or install another in, you would have to remove everything and install them back in.

What I'm trying to say is 10mm will not be sufficient for that option to be practical. More like 20-25mm would be needed.

I think you're overthinking this a bit - the tab cutout would make it easy to insert the card at a diagonal, straighten it out, and then push it into the PCI slot. Aiboh feels similarly, as he's had to do as such with a non-reference card that all but touches the front fan.

So, the order would be fan(s)-on-rad, rad-in-case, card(s)-in-case.

Is it ideal? No. But is it feasible? Sure.


If I were to install a ATX PSU in this case, there are already very nice options:

1) Install 240mm rad + fans on the bottom and use the front for either fan(s) and/or drive(s).
2) Install a thick 140mm or 120mm rad on the front-top, and use the front-bottom and bottom of the case for whatever.
3) In case one wants to do AIO cooling for the GPU too, one can install a 240mm rad on the bottom AND a 140/120mm rad on the front-top.

As a result, I don't think that the additional 10mm will be worth it.

#1 would preclude the bottom motherboard PCI slot at a minimum, and you would actually lose the ability to mount anything on front-bottom, since the radiator and fans would be in the way.

For #2/3, the front only has 120mm mounts, so you couldn't use 140mm radiators or fans. And a GPU AIO would have to be no taller than a standard PCI slot if you wanted to put a radiator and fans at the bottom - otherwise, there isn't enough clearance.

Anyway, awesome feedback from everyone! We really appreciate it :) And for those that haven't already, I encourage everyone to participate in the straw poll.
 
Just a heads up - I've posted an update on the KI blog that summarizes some of the more significant design changes we've been mulling over the past month. Those who follow us on various forum threads should be familiar with most of it, but I'd bet that almost every reader will find kernels of new info in the post, so I invite everyone to take a peek!
 
A link to the blog would be nice, since the start post still has no link to the website or the blog ;)
EDIT: excuse my ignorance, links towards a commercial project are generally considered advertising. This has been mentioned before, I should have known.
 
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Sorry for the radio silence, everyone - Aiboh and I have both been very busy as of late :rolleyes:

That said, we want to do a repeat of the last poll we posted, but this time we're limiting it to a consideration of a 15mm depth increase. After looking at the range of video cards, radiators, AIO's, and other hardware that's available, we've concluded that ~15mm would be the necessary length to add, in order to provide the greatest utility from such a change. Any less, and you begin to quickly reduce component flexibility; any more, and you only really benefit a small minority of builds that use the longest of cards.

So, what do you think: Is it worth it to add around 15mm of depth to Nova?

After playing around with this change, we can confirm the following about it's implications:

  1. Super-long cards (R9 295x2, or rediculous-length non-reference cards/coolers) will now be "comfortably" supported, and would be easier to install. Pretty much all cards will be supported length-wise, actually, that we know of.
  2. For all but the longest of cards (again, R9 295x2-territory), a 25mm front fan will be supported as well.
  3. For 10.5" cards (most notably nVidia's current and last-gen flagships, 780(Ti)/970/980/Titan/Titan X/Titan Z, as well as many of AMD's cards at or below the 270X, though some 280s/290s can be near this length), there will be ~58-60mm of clearance at the front. That's enough for pretty much any AIO, and any discrete radiator around 30-35mm - which will be particularly useful for builds that rear-mount the power supply, or populate 4-5 PCI slots (either of which prevent mounting a radiator and/or fan in their respective locations).
  4. Since we're adapting "sliding" 120mm mounts/grooves at the bottom of Nova, the ~15mm of depth would be reflected in added range of movement for bottom-mounted components. This could be handy if you had hardware mounted to the front and bottom, for example.
  5. For builds with ITX-length graphics cards and PCI devices, front-mounting the HDD cage near the bottom would now be possible.
  6. Finally, this change would give additional clearance to any hardware mounted to the side bracket, when it is swung out. Currently, the X41 used in testing just swings past the 2x2.5" drive bracket, even with the mounts pushed all the way towards the back. The depth increase would thus alleviate concerns of clearance issues for practically anything you could mount there, when used in conjunction with the drive bracket.
  7. The "cost" of these changes would be a ~4.5% increase in Nova's depth (to 348mm) and volume (to ~17.7L).

I encourage everyone to both vote in the poll, and contribute their thoughts on the thread! We're still very much on the fence about this possible change, and look to you all for a better sense of what you'd value - and whether or not this would affect the sorts of builds you'd want to make inside Nova.
 
I think Nova has to position itself as versatile as possible and offer SFF for mATX users as convenient as possible. Having these additional 15mm allows configurations quite a few people have in their large cases now, 2x240mm rads + ATX PSU for example.

What the goal here should be is to make it as easy for people to just switch cases from Midi-Towers to the Nova without having to buy additional hardware, and I think this will now be possible for even more users. So yes, make the 15mm happen.
 
Yes, I'm constantly getting comments about not supporting ATX PSUs. Dual 240mm rads will be difficult even with the extra space but people are doing it in the M1 so I'm sure someone will try it in Nova.
 
I wouldn't be surprised some people will even try three 240mm rads or more insane stuff just to see if it can be done. But in the end, those are a handful of people that will color outside of the box anyway, regardless of how huge you end up making the case.

But I'm all for the 15mm increase, this case should be more than just an Ncase M1 with mATX support, it should also be able to house two high-end cards along with the power supply and cooling that goes with it. The flexibility to allow more than average cooling and almost any (single) graphics card is a huge plus.
You should be expecting people to install dual Titan Z's or GTX 690's in them with a 1000W PSU, even if it would be a bad idea or totally not supported.
 
I wouldn't be surprised some people will even try three 240mm rads or more insane stuff just to see if it can be done. But in the end, those are a handful of people that will color outside of the box anyway, regardless of how huge you end up making the case.

I'm pretty sure three 240mm radiators would never be possible - the most that could potentially be supported is two (at the bottom and front), but that assumes that we support both rear-mounted power supplies, and implement the added depth we've proposed. Plus, even then, it will be quite tight at best.

But I'm all for the 15mm increase, this case should be more than just an Ncase M1 with mATX support, it should also be able to house two high-end cards along with the power supply and cooling that goes with it.

You know, I would bet that those who have voted against any depth increases see Nova as "a mATX NCASE M1", whereas those who have voted for any increases are more in line with your thinking.

Such a contrast in perspectives is very interesting to me. Because, when you look at the very early designs that Aiboh made, as well as the impetus for creating Nova, it really was "M1-style mATX". But, as interest in the project has grown, and as we've been doing a lot more research and contemplation, we've seen additions and design changes that look to maximize efficiency, and provide many more options, for a "SFF mATX" computer case (which is a bit broader in scope).

Even the prototype that exists today, in that sense, represents something that's much more ambitious than "M1 style mATX". A lot of people can't really justify the sacrifice in flexibility and component support to downsize to mITX. But many more could, for the right SFF mATX solution. I think that's the goal that a lot of people want Nova to aspire to.

The flexibility to allow more than average cooling and almost any (single) graphics card is a huge plus.

Technically, any graphics card will fit in the prototype length-wise. The only one that's a "maybe" is, of course, the R9 295x2 - but it's still ~3-4mm short of the 314mm maximum, when accounting for the bracket.

Further, this means that any single graphics card out there today is supported by the prototype, since even the 295x2 could be paired with a CPU and other components that would collectively consume under 600W at load (the current high water mark for SFX).

You should be expecting people to install dual Titan Z's or GTX 690's in them with a 1000W PSU, even if it would be a bad idea or totally not supported.

Oh, absolutely. And it will be supported - since any single graphics card fits (assuming it isn't too wide), two cards will work, too. We just don't have a firm understanding of what the thermal performance of that will look like, since we haven't done any testing.

I'd hypothesize that it will be moderately warmer than "regular"-sized cases, but not much more so - ATX PSU's would act as an exhaust for the case, and the volume is low enough were even just a few 120mm fans will evacuate hot air quickly.
 
You know, I would bet that those who have voted against any depth increases see Nova as "a mATX NCASE M1", whereas those who have voted for any increases are more in line with your thinking.
Yep, that was exactly my logic for voting against it. I just want an SLI setup that can fit in my backpack, I know I'm crazy. :D

That said, after hearing peoples' perspectives, I realize that adding the extra space is probably best (at least for most folks and maybe even myself) given all that you can do with it.
 
Yep, that was exactly my logic for voting against it. I just want an SLI setup that can fit in my backpack, I know I'm crazy. :D

That said, after hearing peoples' perspectives, I realize that adding the extra space is probably best (at least for most folks and maybe even myself) given all that you can do with it.

What kind of backpack are you rocking that the nova will easily fit inside? :confused:
 
What kind of backpack are you rocking that the nova will easily fit inside? :confused:
Well my current backpack only fits the Ncase M1 comfortably, I'd have to get a new backpack to fit this case anyway. I just worry that if they make it too big then the resulting backpack will be unwieldy.
 
Well my current backpack only fits the Ncase M1 comfortably, I'd have to get a new backpack to fit this case anyway. I just worry that if they make it too big then the resulting backpack will be unwieldy.

Yeah I've heard that the M1 fits in some larger backpacks quite easily, but the Nova is a lot taller, so you wouldn't be able to slide it in with the back first in most cases. But length is probably the least problem there.
 
Yeah I've heard that the M1 fits in some larger backpacks quite easily, but the Nova is a lot taller, so you wouldn't be able to slide it in with the back first in most cases. But length is probably the least problem there.
Right, I'd have to get something like this: http://amzn.com/B00G03S4GI kind of like a suitcase backpack. In fact I may even need the larger version of that case, I'd have to take a closer look at the dimensions.

I just have a pipe dream of being able to go places and randomly pull out an extremely powerful desktop computer while everyone else is using laptops and the like. And I could get something like this for my on-the-go display: http://amzn.com/B00DS18ZTG

On a more practical note, I just want something that's less of a pain to haul around if I go to a LAN party or go to one of my friends' houses and play games, or even if I just want to take it downstairs and plug it into the TV. Or at the very least can fit more easily on my table. Right now I use the BitFenix Prodigy... it's bulky so I keep it on the floor, and the handles are kind of sharp and dig into my hands whenever I try to carry it.

Also, and I know this seems silly, I want a computer that feels less like a desktop, and more like a console that can do VR. A small box that I can turn on, put on an HTC Vive or Oculus Rift (when those come out), and lose myself in the fully immersive games. And to be able to take that experience with me without too much trouble and show my friends.

Hopefully that gives you an idea of what I want out of this type of case. I know I'm a strange one, don't judge me. :D
 
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Right, I'd have to get something like this: http://amzn.com/B00G03S4GI kind of like a suitcase backpack. In fact I may even need the larger version of that case, I'd have to take a closer look at the dimensions.

I just have a pipe dream of being able to go places and randomly pull out an extremely powerful desktop computer while everyone else is using laptops and the like. And I could get something like this for my on-the-go display: http://amzn.com/B00DS18ZTG

On a more practical note, I just want something that's less of a pain to haul around if I go to a LAN party or go to one of my friends' houses and play games, or even if I just want to take it downstairs and plug it into the TV. Or at the very least can fit more easily on my table. Right now I use the BitFenix Prodigy... it's bulky so I keep it on the floor, and the handles are kind of sharp and dig into my hands whenever I try to carry it.

Also, and I know this seems silly, I want a computer that feels less like a desktop, and more like a console that can do VR. A small box that I can turn on, put on an HTC Vive or Oculus Rift (when those come out), and lose myself in the fully immersive games. And to be able to take that experience with me without too much trouble and show my friends.

Hopefully that gives you an idea of what I want out of this type of case. I know I'm a strange one, don't judge me. :D

Just for you:

Nova is 300mm high (11.81in), 170mm wide (6.69in), and 333mm deep (13.11in), so it would easily fit in the backback you linked (13.8x9x19in), even if it was 5 inches deeper.
 
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Just for you:

Nova is 300mm high (11.81in), 170mm wide (6.69in), and 333mm deep (13.11in), so it would easily fit in the backback you linked (13.8x9x19in), even if it was 5 inches deeper.

That's awesome, thanks!! I could probably fit my other gear in there too, at least most of it. Oh man, this is gonna be so awesome.

Nova people, hurry and finish this so you can take my money!
 
We'll probably be looking at 313mm H x 173mm W x 360mm D overall (including feet and PCI flange, excluding handle).
 
That's great to know, thanks! That's 12.3 H x 6.8 W x 14.1 D in inches, still a pretty comfy fit for that giant backpack which is 13.8x9x19in as iFreilicht helpfully pointed out. And on that backpack's website, it states that it has a capacity of 2727 cu. in which is actually greater than those dimensions would suggest (probably because the pockets can bulge out a bit and so forth), meaning I'll probably have a fair bit of room for other stuff. This is totally going to work, I'm excited!
 
Here's what I've come up with for the fan mounts on the front:

6qw6T6W.png


Should give complete flexibility for mounting fans and/or radiators.
 
A quick cross-post from LTT:

willemdoom1 on LTT said:
you mentioned that you will be including front io in the final design but wouldn't the case be much cleaner without it.
Aibohphobia on LTT said:
I've grown rather fond of the clean look of the prototype but front IO has been much requested.

You know, I'm too curious to not put a poll up on this:

What do you think: Would you prefer that Nova have USB and audio ports up front (under the power button), or would you prefer that we eschew front I/O completely for a cleaner look?

I'm doubtful that we'll get rid of the I/O, since it's all but a requirement in any case that's to be sold (many would probably refuse to buy it if it didn't have front-mounted I/O ports), but there is definitely an understood correlation between shrinking case sizes and the acceptance of fewer (or no) I/O ports, as they become easier to access in the back. I'd love to know where Nova falls on that trend line.
 
I think 1xUSB 3.0 it's a need these days. One along with the power button won't bother anyone but it's very handy and practical.
 
I think 1xUSB 3.0 it's a need these days. One along with the power button won't bother anyone but it's very handy and practical.

2 usb out front, or side, our top, but somewhere. I use both usb on the front of my current case at the same time a few times a week.
 
My personal preference: two USB ports and quality audio connectors I'd prefer. For instance, the Maximus VII Impact has a headphone amplified line, but only for the front-panel connector. I believe another motherboard also has this, the ASRock Z97E-ITX I believe ? The motherboard USB 3.0 header is meant for two ports, so having one USB port seems kind of a waste.

On top, in the front or on the (left) side doesn't matter to me.
 
One down side of having regular USB ports is that the type-C connector will probably take over more or less completely over time, but that "problem" is of course shared with all cases in existence and in the near future. No biggie, just a thought, and regular USB ports is still better than no ports at all. :)

Also, there's of course nothing (except availability) that prevents an upgrade to type-C connectors in the future.
 
On the USB thing...

-People who don't want/require USB on the front will still buy this case if it has USB on the front.

-People who do want/require USB on the front will give second thought to buying this case if it does not have USB on the front.

One way potentially loses sales, the other does not. Just keep that in mind ;)

(front ports are mainly for items like headphones/mic or mous or wireless dongle, so USB 3.1 wont be needed up there at any point and the 3.0 (or even 2) will be sufficient)
 
(front ports are mainly for items like headphones/mic or mous or wireless dongle, so USB 3.1 wont be needed up there at any point and the 3.0 (or even 2) will be sufficient)

Personally I use them mainly for temporary high-bandwidth external storage, so I think USB 3+ is definitely useful. But yes, 3.0 is sufficient, and the reason I mentioned the type-C connector isn't because of the higher bandwidth of USB 3.1 but because I suspect most or all near-future USB devices will have that connector. But type-C adapters would be a perfectly adequate solution, so it doesn't really matter at all, it was just a thought. :)
 
On the USB thing...

-People who don't want/require USB on the front will still buy this case if it has USB on the front.

-People who do want/require USB on the front will give second thought to buying this case if it does not have USB on the front.

One way potentially loses sales, the other does not. Just keep that in mind ;)

(front ports are mainly for items like headphones/mic or mous or wireless dongle, so USB 3.1 wont be needed up there at any point and the 3.0 (or even 2) will be sufficient)

You're assuming too much. What about the group of people that hate front USB for aesthetic reasons?
I have no idea which option would cause the least amount of lost sales, that's why PP started a poll.

I'm assuming that nobody would ditch this case just because of front USB. Nova is the only case of it's kind. If you were searching for a true SFF (<20L) mATX case, this is the only way to go. Would anyone really choose another case just because this doesn't have the front I/O configuration they want?
 
Would anyone really choose another case just because this doesn't have the front I/O configuration they want?
We could look at it the other way: would anyone not want this case if it did have front I/O ? Like 99% of all cases.

I personally want it front I/O Why ? Because if I need to plug in my headphones, a USB storage device, an iPod or a card reader, I wouldn't have to get up, bend over my table, find a free port in between the dozen cables sticking out behind the PC and doing the same thing when I'm done. It may sound lame, but to me so does removing commodities many have just for the sake of not having them in sight.
 
I'm thinking that 2x USB + audio I/O near the front won't look as clean, but is still a necessary evil.

No way of slightly stealthing the I/O at all? I really enjoy how the lower recessed I/O looks on the M1. If that isn't an option, perhaps frontward on the top or side.. or maybe have a flush color-matched rubber/plastic cover? Still like my placement on the old beveled top edge from page #9.

Just think having the I/O smack dab in the middle-front, below the power button will just look rather cluttered.. don't think it's a deal-breaker, though. Maybe compromise, if possible.. instead of the usual 4 ports, have only 1x USB right below the power, and only 1x audio port just below that?

9ZboPHA.jpg
 
Since I don't use a headset but plain ol' headphones, I don't need a mic-in, but I can imagine there are plenty of people that want it. Maybe they are using USB headsets, I don't know. But 1 USB port and one audio-out is the bare minimum in my opinion.
 
What about making the front audio port a TRRS connector like phones have one? That way, you get the cleanest possible look while maintaining the highest possible functionality.
Regular headphones or smartphone headsets could be plugged in just like that and large headset would require a small adapter, but could be plugged in as well.

I personally really like having a single usb and audio port, they look much better than two of both.
 
A good suggestion, I'm all for maintaining maximum functionality and reducing clutter.
 
I like the idea of the TRRS connector but I lean towards having both USB since that's what the header is capable of.
 
I like the idea of the TRRS connector but I lean towards having both USB since that's what the header is capable of.

Probably impossible to source such a cable, but it would be neat to have the 1x USB and 1x TRRS on the front, with the other 1x USB hidden on the inside front. The inside-front port could be used to keep a Logitech Unifying receiver or similar dongle out-of-sight, but physically closer to where a keyboard/mouse would be (as long as the front panel doesn't block the wireless connection, possibly with the signal passing through the front-side slot vents).

Just an idea, though.
 
I like the idea of the TRRS connector but I lean towards having both USB since that's what the header is capable of.

Probably impossible to source such a cable, but it would be neat to have the 1x USB and 1x TRRS on the front, with the other 1x USB hidden on the inside front. The inside-front port could be used to keep a Logitech Unifying receiver or similar dongle out-of-sight, but physically closer to where a keyboard/mouse would be (as long as the front panel doesn't block the wireless connection, possibly with the signal passing through the front-side slot vents).

Just an idea, though.

In my opinion this fear of "wasting" USB3 ports isn't such a big deal. There are up to 5 wasted USB2 front ports on a mITX board and I don't see anyone complaining that those are wasted.

If you really wanted to make as much USB ports available as possible, you could have cutouts on the back and maybe even have one of the two USB3 ports go there. Alternatively, having one of the two ports at the front and one at the top would allow for a clean look and added flexibility in placement of the case. USB would be available when the case is placed on the table as well as on the floor.

For internal connection of dongles, which is an amazing idea, I would resort to USB2, though. No wireless transceiver I know of even uses USB3 and wouldn't even benefit from it in the first place. Having support for that might be something to look into if it just requires a few additional cuts.
 
In my opinion this fear of "wasting" USB3 ports isn't such a big deal. There are up to 5 wasted USB2 front ports on a mITX board and I don't see anyone complaining that those are wasted.

I think it's because Intel is so stingy with 3.0 ports that it feels wasteful to not make use of the front panel headers.


Got lucky and snagged a Intel 750 400GB from the first batch at Newegg. Then I ran some thermal tests to see how it held up when installed between two video cards:

xfplZY3h.jpg

Here it is installed between the two reference GTX 980s. Side panel was installed when running the tests though.


When running both Unigine Valley and pounding the SSD using Iometer with random 4K writes to the entire drive it got pretty warm.

1 hour of Iometer, GPUs running Valley, front fan @ 1020RPM
ambient: 28-29°C
750 temp: 72°C

PPdSLIz.jpg

Pretty toasty :p


Then with Valley still running I stopped the Iometer testing and ran ATTO:

XAQubU4.png


So even with the video cards cooking the drive it doesn't seem to effect performance.

However the Intel spec rates the AIC version only up to 55°C operating temperature (2.5" version is rated up to 70°C) so for now I took the second card out and have the rig configured with the 750 in the top slot and the remaining 980 in the bottom slot.

Another bench for fun:

D7Bm9aZ.png
 
I think it's because Intel is so stingy with 3.0 ports that it feels wasteful to not make use of the front panel headers.

I agree on that one.

When running both Unigine Valley and pounding the SSD using Iometer with random 4K writes to the entire drive it got pretty warm.

What if you sandwich the ssd with thermally and electrically isolating sheets of suitable material, to prevent it being heated by the graphics cards? Cardboard, maybe (though I have no idea how good cardboard is as a thermal insulator)?
 
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