Judge Limits DHS Laptop Border Searches

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A U.S. District Court judge has ruled that laptop border searches do require a warrant. No doubt we will see a lot of back and forth legal wrangling on this topic since the government still seems to think they can search whatever they like.

U.S. District Judge Jeffrey White in the Northern District of California rejected the Obama administration's argument that no warrant was necessary to look through the electronic files of an American citizen who was returning home from a trip to South Korea.
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sweet, California does something good!

This whole "You don't have any rights if you're not on US soil" crap was quite scary.
 
I could never see what the deal was when the laptop seizes took place. Any terrorists or criminals worth their salt would not store sensitive data on computers they travel with in the first place.
 
Needs more hidden truecrypt volume, I doubt a border guard would even know what to look for.
 
If you read the article, you'll see that the judge didn't actually rule that border searches require a warrant. What they ruled was that warrantless searches at the border are perfectly fine. What isn't fine is to impound the object, remove it from the border, and search it 6 months later without obtaining a warrant. The man's laptop was searched at the border, which they said was fine. They also searched it within a month (but found no evidence), which was ruled ok. Only after letting the case drop for months and then picking it back up was the search ruled invalid.
 
Paladin21 said:
If you read the article, you'll see that the judge didn't actually rule that border searches require a warrant. What they ruled was that warrantless searches at the border are perfectly fine. What isn't fine is to impound the object, remove it from the border, and search it 6 months later without obtaining a warrant. The man's laptop was searched at the border, which they said was fine. They also searched it within a month (but found no evidence), which was ruled ok. Only after letting the case drop for months and then picking it back up was the search ruled invalid.
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I'm not seeing that in the article. The article says that it was previously ruled that you could not extend searches without warrants. Judge White rejected that ruling and said all electronic searches must require a warrant.

Also, previously, law enforcement tried to bend the law saying that "search incident to a valid arrest" allows them to search without a warrant, but Hanson was never arrested in the first place!
 
"A 2006 Police Blotter article reported that the Ninth Circuit, which sets precedents that are binding on San Francisco federal courts, ruled that random searches of laptops at the border without a search warrant is permissible."

This case did nothing about that, it merely said you can't keep someone's stuff even for an "extended border search" for months without a proper warrant for it. It makes me sad that someone acting subjectively "nervous" is grounds to suspect they are doing something illegal. If you get singled out for an extra security check, maybe that's natural. Crazy! Also, apparently carrying condoms is now a huge red flag.
 
If you look down in the excerpt from the ruling, you'll see what I was talking about. the first section outlines the circumstances regarding the initial search at the border (in January), and the initial follow-up search in Febuary. The search in Febuary is considered an "extended border search", and the Government needs reasonable suspicion to proceed with a warrantless search. The court rules that they met that burden of proof, and so the defendant's motion (to dismiss evidence) is denied for those two searches. Since both of those searches were warrantless, and the court declined to suppress the evidence, then the conclusion is that warrantless searches are fine in some circumstances. Note the fact that when they talk about the original search at the border, the court implies that there need be no suspicion of guilt at all to conduct the search, as they specifically note that the extended search requires "reasonable suspicion" as opposed to the original border search which required "mere suspicion or no suspicion".

In the second part of the ruling, you'll see the court throw out the much later searches on the basis of faulty legal reasoning. The Government's claim in this case was that they didn't need a warrant because the laptop was a "container" that they could search for evidence. However, the cases cited deal with containers obtained in the process of a valid arrest that are searched incidentally to the arrest. As the defendant was not arrested, this exception doesn't apply.

Bottom line: they can still search your laptop at the border without a warrant for any reason (or no reason at all), they can hold it and perform an extended search without a warrant if they can demonstrate "reasonable suspicion", they can *not* search it without a warrant after removing it from the border and holding it for an extended amount of time without a warrant.
 
radioactivez0r said:
Also, apparently carrying condoms is now a huge red flag.
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24418ph.jpg
 
snoozininsomniac said:
24418ph.jpg
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That guy got it from the article. Does nobody read the actual links anymore? The guy crossed the border, they searched his laptop for ANYTHING illegal (it could be a downloaded song, movie, evidence of not paying taxes, anything), and were unable to procure enough evidence of wrongdoing. 6 months later they showed up at his home and searched it again - claiming it was an 'extended border search' and they didn't need a warrant and listing one of the reasons why it was ok to search without a warrant was his suspicious behavior at the border 6 months prior including, quote: 'the discovery of the condoms and the male-enhancement pills'.
 
No warrant should be needed to search articles entering the country. If you are crossing the border you should fully expect that a top to bottom search of everything in your possession could happen and you can't do squat about it. And rightfully so.

A warrant is most definitely needed to search property that is already in the country. Which is what this ruling is arguing. How the fuck they managed to figure that a laptop that cross the border 6 months ago is still searchable anytime they want to up and get on the ball is a mystery. THAT shit, you need a warrant for.

Apparently the border patrol seems to think that articles that have been here for half a year are still "entering the country" after all that time. Once they get past the initial border check, the window has closed.
 
Bgrngod said:
No warrant should be needed to search articles entering the country. If you are crossing the border you should fully expect that a top to bottom search of everything in your possession could happen and you can't do squat about it. And rightfully so.
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Agreed.
 
Bgrngod said:
No warrant should be needed to search articles entering the country. If you are crossing the border you should fully expect that a top to bottom search of everything in your possession could happen and you can't do squat about it. And rightfully so.
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I disagree in the strongest possible terms. You think this sounds like a good idea when you're only thinking about terrorism. You're not walking out the full logic path here. There are several good reasons why this is a bad idea, even besides on just general principles.

I deal in very sensitive private client information. I constantly have to be available no matter where I am. If I need to bring my laptop across the US border (business or otherwise), I now have to concerned with some ragingly incompetent border guard seizing my laptop for the hell of it with all my client info on there? Do you have ANY idea of the shitstorm that would create for my firm and client? To have that kind of stuff in the wind?

You may claim no one has anything to worry about if they're not doing anything illegal - just remember that the gov't is NOT your friend, they have EVERY incentive to try to screw you and NONE to be nice. You CANNOT trust them in any way, shape, or form. Not because you are doing anything wrong, but simply because they do NOT have any interest in your welfare in these kinds of situations.

I have young relatives who are Asian (my brothers kids) and I have certainly at times past had pictures on my laptop of them sent from him that you may think are funny of them playing around at a beach or in the bath, sans clothes. Do you think border guards would look at a 6ft white guy and go, Oh sure, you're right, this is fine. No, they would make my life a living hell, probably even AFTER they confirmed they were relatives, JUST BECAUSE THEY COULD and would be REWARDED for it.

These people have a job and it doesn't involve making your life easy or looking out for your interests.
 
Bgrngod said:
No warrant should be needed to search articles entering the country. If you are crossing the border you should fully expect that a top to bottom search of everything in your possession could happen and you can't do squat about it. And rightfully so.
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I completely disagree. I don't think your rights as a US citizen should change just because you are entering or leaving the country. If they need a warrant in your car or in your house, they should need it at the airport as well. I would much rather have a judge grant the decision to search my shit than some moron at the airport.

Darknyt said:
I disagree in the strongest possible terms. You think this sounds like a good idea when you're only thinking about terrorism. You're not walking out the full logic path here. There are several good reasons why this is a bad idea, even besides on just general principles.

I deal in very sensitive private client information. I constantly have to be available no matter where I am. If I need to bring my laptop across the US border (business or otherwise), I now have to concerned with some ragingly incompetent border guard seizing my laptop for the hell of it with all my client info on there? Do you have ANY idea of the shitstorm that would create for my firm and client? To have that kind of stuff in the wind?

You may claim no one has anything to worry about if they're not doing anything illegal - just remember that the gov't is NOT your friend, they have EVERY incentive to try to screw you and NONE to be nice. You CANNOT trust them in any way, shape, or form. Not because you are doing anything wrong, but simply because they do NOT have any interest in your welfare in these kinds of situations.

I have young relatives who are Asian (my brothers kids) and I have certainly at times past had pictures on my laptop of them sent from him that you may think are funny of them playing around at a beach or in the bath, sans clothes. Do you think border guards would look at a 6ft white guy and go, Oh sure, you're right, this is fine. No, they would make my life a living hell, probably even AFTER they confirmed they were relatives, JUST BECAUSE THEY COULD and would be REWARDED for it.

These people have a job and it doesn't involve making your life easy or looking out for your interests.
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QFT
 
Azhar said:
I could never see what the deal was when the laptop seizes took place. Any terrorists or criminals worth their salt would not store sensitive data on computers they travel with in the first place.
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Privacy? You want some random guy looking through all of your personal files without a warrant, just because he feels like it?
 
steal said:
Privacy? You want some random guy looking through all of your personal files without a warrant, just because he feels like it?
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You have it backwards. I meant to say "I don't see why border patrols and airport security are wanting to seize laptops so badly", not "I don't see why people care so much if their laptops are being seized".

That's why I added a second sentence saying terrorists and criminals aren't likely to have discriminating evidence on their laptops in the first place.
 
Azhar said:
You have it backwards. I meant to say "I don't see why border patrols and airport security are wanting to seize laptops so badly", not "I don't see why people care so much if their laptops are being seized".

That's why I added a second sentence saying terrorists and criminals aren't likely to have discriminating evidence on their laptops in the first place.
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Just for arguments sake, let's say somehow, someway, the DHS gets it into their head (or someone helps put it there) that searching normal people's hard drives at the border is great because it gives them a chance to now look for ANY contraband without ANY warrant.

Can't you just imagine how excited the RIAA or MPAA would be to get their hands into this somehow?

Do you trust a border guard to know the difference between your legally purchases itunes music, or music you ripped, versus pirated music? Those people are stupid enough to think that just because it's on a hard drive instead of CD it's probably illegal.

What about movies? Rip any of your DVD's? That's illegal whether you own it or not. You can be sure if you had digital copies of movies (even permitted digital copies from purchased DVD's) on your hard drive you can kiss that whole laptop goodbye while they "evaluate" it.

It's not like these people are remotely reasonable. They're not going to offer to make an image of your hard drive and give it back, or copy some of it, etc.. They are going to impound it at the merest HINT of impropriety, whether that be real, imagined, or straight out of the mother f'ing land of Oz.Then you realistically kiss that property gone, while they have created a legal mess for you that will eclipse any inconvenience you felt over losing the actual laptop.

And that's just TWO possible areas.
 
why not just keep all your sensitive stuff on a thumb drive in your checked baggage?

this whole concept is pretty stupid... its not like the terrorists are going to have a visio on their desktop called "plans to the deathstar" or something
 
Personally, I think I would minimize the potential trouble by wiping my computer clean before each border crossing and VPNing into my home server for my stuff. That way they can search all they want and not find nothing.

Truecrypt is great, but I'm worried that I'd be detained or the laptop confiscated because I look like I have something to hide. At the very least it'll arouse suspicion which will inevitably lead to delay.
 
Darknyt said:
What about movies? Rip any of your DVD's? That's illegal whether you own it or not. You can be sure if you had digital copies of movies (even permitted digital copies from purchased DVD's) on your hard drive you can kiss that whole laptop goodbye while they "evaluate" it.
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To my understanding, the law breaking part of DVD rips in the USA is the circumvention of encryption meant to prevent copying, not the ownership of a backup copy for personal use.


So, if you were traveling internationally, and ripped your DVD in a country that didn't have that law how would they treat that?

make the rip obviously titled and put it in the open, but have documented that it was done where its legal...


bait border patrol into complaining about it.....


????


profit?


i am not a lawyer....
 
Bgrngod said:
No warrant should be needed to search articles entering the country. If you are crossing the border you should fully expect that a top to bottom search of everything in your possession could happen and you can't do squat about it. And rightfully so.
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Really?

What is the difference between information on a hard drive and information flowing over a comms path? The Internet tubes all leave the country and it is common for even intra-country stuff to sometimes bounce off of a server in a foreign county before returning here.
 
It is rather simple border guards and custom are supposed to check everything for tariff violations and but there are too many people going through so they do spot checks on people who don't declare anything.

So if you are going to cross borders have either a blank drive to take through customs. Install windows and what ever you need once across the border from a private server you have to log into. Upload any data you need to your server. Break said drive mail it home, listing it as a broken drive needing repair. Declare to customs that your hard drive was broken and you mailed it home so it could get replaced.

Customs will not bother with you since they will assume that anything incriminating has already been taken care of.
 
why go through so much effort. Upload data wipe drive. They can't hold you(or your computer) for having no data and it makes the trip faster if there is nothing to find
 
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