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It's about time!

Though that article was from October ;) it's still good to see review sites (who are no doubt under as much pressure as the hardware manufacturers to get information to the masses asap) making an effort to not be the lap dogs of ATi and nVidia.
 
I am always hopeful to see unbiased reporting. To much to ask Brent or Kyle for.
 
SocketA said:
I am always hopeful to see unbiased reporting. To much to ask Brent or Kyle for.
Click to expand...

which one are we biased for at this moment?

cause it like changes minute to minute apparently, heh
 
imo, it doesnt matter what review site you are talking about, none of them seem to take a stand one way or the other anymore.

I remember back in the day... at the end of a product review, you'd find something to the effect of "this is a peice of shit, don't buy it"... or "this thing rocks more than ted nugent, buy it."

Now all you get is watered down, "This might be the card for you IF... blah blah" But hey, im just some dumbass that doesn't know what he's talking about.

This is why I inevitably read all reviews, from all sources possible... then form my own opinion after I use a product - before I reccomend it to my customers.
 
Brent_Justice said:
which one are we biased for at this moment?

cause it like changes minute to minute apparently, heh
Click to expand...

All of 'em Brent my boy, all of 'em. Every review written by you this year has some stupid asinine comment promoting Nvidia. http://www.hardocp.com/article.html?art=Njk3LDE= For example, this dumb remark.

"You really have to give a lot of credit to the GeForce 6800Ultra here as to the workload it is handling with many less clock cycles. We have NVIDIA’s 16 pixel-pipeline video card clocked at 400MHz on one hand, and then we have ATI’s 16 pixel-pipeline card clocked at 540MHz on the other; that is a very large 140MHz core speed difference. Yet the GeForce 6800Ultra is doing very well considering the brute force it is up against. While it does lag quite a bit in some games, you are still able to run those games with the maximum in-game quality settings; you just have to back off an AA setting or resolution. It is really a testament to the architecture of the GeForce 6800Ultra."

Tell me Brent, how is it maximum quality settings if you have to back off AA and resolution settings?
 
^^
you are still able to run those games with the maximum in-game quality settings
Click to expand...

talking about the in-game quality settings like textures, effects etc.. not specifically AA/AF

the point of that remark was that there is a large difference in clock speed, yet the 6800U is keeping up quite well, only 1 AA setting lower in that specific case (and as we know AA is more memory bandwidth limited than pixel limited) it shows how good the architecture actually is

as we move into the future you are going to start seeing more of this, where its not all about clock speeds, but rather which one has a more efficient architecture, which one can execute shaders faster etc...
 
DandyBear said:
"you are still able to run those games with the maximum in-game quality settings; you just have to back off an AA setting or resolution. It is really a testament to the architecture of the GeForce 6800Ultra."

Tell me Brent, how is it maximum quality settings if you have to back off AA and resolution settings?
Click to expand...

maximum in-game quality settings, probally meaning textures, etc. not AA, which most of the time you set out of the game to get it to work.


edit: damn...i suck at being first :\
 
DandyBear said:
All of 'em Brent my boy, all of 'em. Every review written by you this year has some stupid asinine comment promoting Nvidia. http://www.hardocp.com/article.html?art=Njk3LDE= For example, this dumb remark.

"You really have to give a lot of credit to the GeForce 6800Ultra here as to the workload it is handling with many less clock cycles. We have NVIDIA’s 16 pixel-pipeline video card clocked at 400MHz on one hand, and then we have ATI’s 16 pixel-pipeline card clocked at 540MHz on the other; that is a very large 140MHz core speed difference. Yet the GeForce 6800Ultra is doing very well considering the brute force it is up against. While it does lag quite a bit in some games, you are still able to run those games with the maximum in-game quality settings; you just have to back off an AA setting or resolution. It is really a testament to the architecture of the GeForce 6800Ultra."

Tell me Brent, how is it maximum quality settings if you have to back off AA and resolution settings?
Click to expand...

That's funny, because I have always felt that Brent is bias towards ATI.
 
Not this piece of shit again.

Here, THG was mighty jealous when they didn't get the 6200 along with everyone else. So they decided to make ATi and nVidia out to be the bad guys, and act like some sort of videocard messiah in the process. Whatever.

Let's see:

# It is a disservice to our readers to rush testing just because a vendor wants to get a big PR launch.

-It seems that the half-dozen other sites didn't have any trouble.

# It is a disservice to our readers to constantly deal with last minute, rushed products that may have little to do with finally shipping products

-I've yet to see any "preReview" card that didn't compare to final products. It even seemed as though Brent was a bit wary of the 5800 way back when (http://www.hardocp.com/article.html?art=NDIxLDE=), and look how right he was.

# It is a disservice to our readers to constantly deal with products weeks or months before the products become available to the market.

-My god, I feel so overwhelmed by reading these reviews BEFORE the cards come out, I think I need therapy.

# It is a disservice to our readers to cave in to the pressure that comes from the expectation by vendors that every online review will appear on a single day giving them a big bang opening day.

-Again, everyone else does it. Adapt or become extinct.

THG occassionally puts out some good stuff. This was absolutely ridiculous though.

Now, as for Hard...

I, like most people, don't always agree what Kyle and Brent have to say. But I admire them both for sticking by their guns on the issues they feel strongly about.

Unfortunetally, there is no such thing as the unbiased review. Some folks make it out to seem that reviewers get paid to write favorably about products. If only.

The only thing you can do is try to find sources that you feel comfortable reading and gaining information from. Maybe you favor a number of sources when evaluating a product? Well, that's the beauty of the internet, my friends. ;)
 
The bias accusations are all funnyu to me. The reviews I have read I have always noted a bias towards the manufacture the delivers the most for the less. Last product cycle it was ATi, this product cycle it seems to be nVidia and ATi depending on which game you want to play. I just dont see the bias here at this site as I see at others.
 
Brent_Justice said:
^^


talking about the in-game quality settings like textures, effects etc.. not specifically AA/AF

the point of that remark was that there is a large difference in clock speed, yet the 6800U is keeping up quite well, only 1 AA setting lower in that specific case (and as we know AA is more memory bandwidth limited than pixel limited) it shows how good the architecture actually is

as we move into the future you are going to start seeing more of this, where its not all about clock speeds, but rather which one has a more efficient architecture, which one can execute shaders faster etc...
Click to expand...

I see your point, and I am not trying to start a war. I traded my Ultra to a friend for an X800XT PE because I felt it ran better using maximum settings and resolutions, in-game or not. If I am spending $500 on a video card I want to be able to run games wilth all "Eye Candy" turned on. Should the consumer expect anything less? Your reviews do seem slighted toward Nvidia even though the above linked review shows, the X850 XT PE is just building on a lead the X800 XT PE already had. The Ultra is more efficient? Well if efficiency means lowering visual quality settings to achieve comparable frame rates, count me out.
 
The point of this post?

I'm SICK of reading about cards that you can BARELY find in retail for even close to MSRP!

Who gives a flying shit about a card that will run D]|[ at 350fps @1600x1200 6xAA/16xAF if you cant BUY the goddamn thing. Time to hold the manufacturers accountable for vaporware.
 
only recently have the x800 pro XT PE been avaliable for 500 and its still rare to see that. it was goin for around twice the price of one 6800 ultra or more when it was first launched. so tell me, is it really worth that much to pay almost double or more for a x800 XT PE? for a measily bit faster card? plz think b4 u speak. its like buyin speakers, logitech vs altecs. yes the altecs are better but look at the price they are at? if u disregard the price then yes the altecs and x800 XT PE are faster but obviously we're not all rich here and cannot disregard the prices. so in conclusion the 6800 ultra is better if u take into account pricing and avaliability. if we listened to u and everyone bought the fastest card for 500 which would be the x800 XT PE, i'd bet that even now, not even 1/10th of the ppl here would have a x800 XT PE, which means they missed out on like almost half a year of gaming with eye candy. as u can see why we have to add other elements when thinking about vcards not only there pure power...
 
hey... how about a cup of STFU

I did not start this thread to have a bunch of flamers in here saying "ati is better" ... "NO, nvidia is better!"

This thread is about the two largest video card manufacturers, and their inability to actually produce the products that they market so well. It is also a thread about the role of hardware review sites, and their responsibility or lack thereof in reviewing cards that the public will never see.

... where is a damn moderator when you need one? Get these kiddies OUTA here so we can have a useful discussion on a topic that hasnt been covered 18,000 times already.
 
You'd be wise to just ignore shade.

fyi, googlegear has the XT/PE in stock for $519 with free 2 day shipping.
 
fallguy said:
You'd be wise to just ignore shade.

fyi, googlegear has the XT/PE in stock for $519 with free 2 day shipping.
Click to expand...
why am i wrong about the avaliability of the card in the previous 6 months? the price as well? where do u see in zipzoomfly a XT PE for 500? i only see one for 800.
 
The X800XT/PE was reviewed MONTHS ago. You are just now being able to find them, and certaintly not in quantity.

That is the problem. I'd rather have a product launch, and sit on the shelves for a week before a review is done. I know that won't happen.

So what is an acceptable timeframe after a review should you be able to find it in quantity on shelves and with online e-tailers? I'm saying a week to two weeks tops. If it is more than a month, that is utterly ridiculous and an INTENTIONAL marketing ploy.

The latter is what is happening now, and has been happening for the last year.
 
shade said:
why am i wrong about the avaliability of the card in the previous 6 months? the price as well?
Click to expand...

The availability was never in question, it has been hard to get a hold of. The problem I had with your post, is that you said the XT/PE is almost twice the cost of a 6800U. This is not true. Lots of people got theirs for MSRP at BestBuy, CompUSA, etc. There is a 6800U for $850 on googlegear, does that represent the average price? No.

Everything you are saying about the price inflation, and lack of availability can be said for the 6800 Ultra as well, just not to the same extent. The 6800U at launch was hard to get, and over MSRP almost everywhere. Its still over MSRP in a lot of places.

Try finding a 6800U PCI-E in stock anywhere close to MSRP. Googlegear has one for $900.. on back order.

So hows about taking your own advice, in your AOL talk;

shade said:
plz think b4 u speak..
Click to expand...
 
fallguy said:
The availability was never in question, it has been hard to get a hold of. The problem I had with your post, is that you said the XT/PE is almost twice the cost of a 6800U. This is not true.
Click to expand...
He said when they first came out.
shade said:
only recently have the x800 pro XT PE been avaliable for 500 and its still rare to see that. it was goin for around twice the price of one 6800 ultra or more when it was first launched.
Click to expand...

and as i recall, they were pretty expensive if not very close to being twice as much. i think the highest i saw it was around 700 or 800. (that was just what i saw) maybe not exactly twice but pretty close.
 
I see I was mistaken thinking I could have people post on topic.

you people sicken me.
 
I know what he said, and hes wrong. When both cards first came out, the Ultra was not $500 online. At BB and such it was, as was the XT/PE.

Just as I posted the Asus 6800 Ultra price is $850 at googlegear. Does that mean thats the average price of a 6800 Ultra? No.

Im not going to bicker back and forth, anyone with half a memory remembers the prices. Saying the XT/PE was "around twice as much" is just plain silly. Thats all Im going to say on the matter.
 
All the bickering in the world... will not make you realize that most of you are idiots... for not being able to understand a concept as simple as posting something relavent to the topic under which you are posting.

This thread has, and had nothing to do with the prices or the performance of said video cards.

It has to do with the availability of products to market in relation to the marketing and reviews/previews on said hardware.

The next person to post anything deviating from that topic, you could just as well put a bullet in your head, and save us the argumentative trouble.
 
sorry but my last post about the performance. dude are u serious? the BB deals and DELL deals never came thru!!!!! the ppl who ordered from DELL STILL DO NOT HAVE THERE CARD. maybe a couple of ppl got it. but for like 99% of the other ppl who ordered it never came thru. there was even a buzz goin around at the time that the XT PE was canceled becuz no one could get one. ppl on ebat were sellin them for 1500, but i was being relistic and sayin the price that most logical and ppl who knew about comp stuff sold it for which was about twice the ultra. once again sorry...
 
orkan said:
The point of this post?

I'm SICK of reading about cards that you can BARELY find in retail for even close to MSRP!

Who gives a flying shit about a card that will run D]|[ at 350fps @1600x1200 6xAA/16xAF if you cant BUY the goddamn thing. Time to hold the manufacturers accountable for vaporware.
Click to expand...

Damn right. I'm going on day 22 of backorder status of my video card. Screw ATi and nVidia for not getting thier shit together.

The price gouging is insane. I think it was Atacom that had the X850XT-PE listed for $1475.00. F@!#$ Bul@#$%. You should charge MSRP or even a few bucks over won't hurt. If it's not in stock, just say it's not in stock. No consumer level card, even when it's for gaming is worth that much money. Price gouging when the demand is high and supply is short is an old and acceptable practice in the market place. Within a certain realm of reason. When the C6 Vette came out, they were charging between 4 and 8 thousand dollars over sticker price for them. Percentage wise that's a 20% increase or so. A $1475.00 video card with an MSRP of $549.99 is a bit over 150% markup. That's INSANE. Nvidia and ATi shouldn't even allow it. It's not like they are getting that money from the vendor.

I know this much, if SLi motherboards were more common and available for Pentium 4's and Athlon 64's alike, you'd see ALOT of 6600GT's in SLi since no body can buy anything else.

The retail stores don't do this. The online one's shouldn't either. Comp USA charges $499.99 for an X800XT-PE. If they have them. They rarely do, but you won't get screwed by them.

If they had 6800GT's in PCI-E I'd get one from them.
 
purefun65 said:
Dude it's all good thats what theses forums are all about opinions and debates.
Click to expand...

opinions and debates... ON TOPIC!!!!!!!!! Sir fragalot is the only one with half the sense to post something relevant to topic.

I feel your pain frag. I'm waiting to upgrade my box, and would like to put an x800xl or something in there... but I probably wont see one for a few months.
 
orkan said:
All the bickering in the world... will not make you realize that most of you are idiots... for not being able to understand a concept as simple as posting something relavent to the topic under which you are posting.
Click to expand...

orkan said:
opinions and debates... ON TOPIC!!!!!!!!! Sir fragalot is the only one with half the sense to post something relevant to topic.
Click to expand...

Yeah, this is really on topic;

orkan said:
Ruby > tinkerbell
Click to expand...

Way to be a hypocrite. No wonder this worthless (and OFN) thread died.
 
orkan said:
The point of this post?

I'm SICK of reading about cards that you can BARELY find in retail for even close to MSRP!

Who gives a flying shit about a card that will run D]|[ at 350fps @1600x1200 6xAA/16xAF if you cant BUY the goddamn thing. Time to hold the manufacturers accountable for vaporware.
Click to expand...

Ah, but see, they get around the "vaporware" moniker by just having enough of the card available. Like with the X800XT PE's...very few have them in relation to the entire "enthusiast" market, but there were enough people who did get one that "vaporware" wouldn't apply.

I do agree with you though, just pointing out the above.
 
orkan said:
THG has put its foot down, and I'm happy to see it.

http://www4.tomshardware.com/column/20041011/index.html

If more review sites did this... we might actually be able to BUY the cards that we see getting reviewed.
Click to expand...

While I am definately NOT a fan of the above site, I do agree with the approach. I do see value in preview type pieces to explore the up and coming tech but full blown reviews; I think Orkan is right on the money.

To play devils advocate though, the problem is that unless the big sites like the [H], anandtech and a few others make a pact, nothing will change. Also, if they do, it opens the door for some of the lesser hardware sites to step up and offer reviews concurrent with these "launches". It comes down to money, which is a result of advertizing, which is a result of traffic, which is a result (at least in part) of being "first to print" or close there after.

Once again, I agree with the context of the TOPIC of this thread but I really think it is just pie in the sky.
 
that is on the money. I think you are right that money is king, and sites like [H] are not about to turn it away. Toms isnt my favorite site by any means. Frankly, the [H] is my favorite review site. But like you say, at what point should they postpone the money, in light of giving the loyal supporters of this site a more accurate assesment of the hardware on the horizon.

It doesn't take very much effort to just spew out a review the earliest you can get your hands on a product. It would take more work, but would be a better service to us if [H] could predict availability as part of its review. Pretty sad state of affairs when review sites have to do this, but I don't see much option. Like I say, what good is a review of the highest caliber, if you can't buy the damn thing?

I'd like to hear brent or kyle's viewpoint on this subject.
 
Anandtech had this to say about it in their X800 XL article.

If you ask us, we don't know who or what to believe anymore. This past year has been filled of missed releases, missed launches and misinformation. From NVIDIA's Video Processor to ATI's disappearing X700 XT, we're tired of all of it. ATI's promise about X850 GPUs being sold a week after they were launched turned out to be empty as we still can't find any X850 based GPUs available for sale. Even after firing off multiple emails to ATI asking for resolution on the availability matter, we were met with nothing but silence. ATI had no problem answering other questions, but all of our queries about X850 availability have been left untouched. Maybe radio silence will make the problem go away...

We don't think so. The credibility of both GPU vendors has been hurt tremendously this year. Neither side can say that they aren't guilty of the very same things that they accuse the other of doing. It's really a shame because in the end, it hurts their consumers, our readers and makes it much more difficult for anyone, including us, to put faith and trust in what we are told by ATI and NVIDIA.
Click to expand...

http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=2299

I thought it was funny how ATI tried to feed us this line about how the X800 XL was going to cost $299 and it would be on the market soon. Here we are months later and I have to agree with Anand that it was all a ploy to try to draw market share away from the 6800 series with a product that they have no intention of releasing for months down the road and at a higher price. They would have had to undercut their X800 Pro, which goes for $399 on their web site, with a stronger card. It doesn't make sense.
 
The X850 was never supposed to be avail within a week, they said in january, and I see, using dealtime, the X800xl was avail at 3 stores, but is now OOS, but I was able to see them be IN stock.
I think they'll be avail in the next few weeks.
Also based on the R430, the Radeon X800 XL could be a heckuva value for the money when it arrives, but I don't think ATI will make the Christmas shopping season with R430-derived products. If they do, it'll be very close. They're telling us that we should get press samples in about two weeks. If the cards start shipping in volume by then, it just might be possible to pick one up at an online reseller in time for Christmas. Maybe. But I really doubt it.
Click to expand...
However, they did the X850 XT would be avail mid decemember..
Thats goes back to me"I think they'll be avail in the next few weeks." .
If it isn't, then we have a problem.
 
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