Is water cooling really necessary?

T

Tonyrat

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Jun 12, 2005
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Question to all you experts out there... is water cooling really necessary? Here's what I have going on:

I haven't built a new system from scratch since 1995... when the 486 was king, and the Pentiums were just coming out. Back then, you popped the CPU in the ZIF socket, locked it down, and presto... CPU installed. Since then, I've purchased from HELL (Oops, I meant DELL) almost exclusively... due to my newly formed rather poor opinion of them, and the savings to be had on a custom build, I'm opting for the custom build for my new system. Now, I know a lot has changed since then as far as custom builds and mods go, but generally most things are basically the same, so having done this before (even if over a decade ago) and always upgrading my existing systems, I'm no stranger to the inside of the box.

Having said all that, here's where I'm at. The boss (my wife... aka my sugamama) has granted a generous budget on the new system... not to exceed 4k... with the expectation that it'll last another 4 years or so. I've decided on the Intel Core 2 Extreme Quad QX6700 and two GeForce 8800GTX in SLI. So, I'm all set to go, and I've been doing all the necessary research, and I'm ready to buy and build... almost.

One thing's got me stumped. I know all the blazing speed by the latest artwork by Intel and NVIDIA's got the cost of extreme heat. I get that much. And I read all the time that liquid cooling is "way better", which is great, but still, is it necessary? Especially considering that the gfx cards I'm looking at have built in fans and such, and the CPU comes with it's own stock air cooling, and I can't believe that they'd sell something that wouldn't be enough to cool it sufficiently. (Or would they?) So, is water cooling really necessary, or is the stock cooling just fine? Granted, I'm assuming this has something to do with usage of the system, so I'll tell you about that... I've always pushed my machines pretty hard, I code, I game, I render with Lightwave 3D, and I run my systems almost 24x7. (Usually in a project, don't want to "reset" my environment.) One thing I've never done is overclock. (That might amaze some of you, but I just never felt the need to.)

So, what it boils down to is this... There are four problems I want to avoid:

(1) I absolutely do NOT want to fry any part of my system via overheating. If I have to buy a new CPU because I fried the old one, I doubt I'd have the chance to do so, so I'd be screwed.

(2) If I choose liquid cooling, I absolutely do not want any accidents that might damage the system via short-by-moisture. I do occasionally have to transport my systems, and I wouldn't want to jostle things loose and get everything wet. I also don't want ANY condensation or leaks inside the box at all. Honestly, I'm a bit scared of the idea of pumping liquid inside my soon-to-be-BEASTIE.

(3) If I choose liquid cooling, I do not want to have to refill the d@$% thing periodically, I don't have the discipline for it, to tell you the truth. I'll forget, and I'll wind up frying the system anyway. I'm hoping that on most cooling systems, refilling is not necessary, or that refills are very seldom, and the system warns you when it's time... that wouldn't be TOO bad.

(4) I don't want an overly noisy system. My current system is a classic Pentium 4 (5 years old, doesn't even have HT, sigh) and it has a nice gentle fan hum to it, like all my other PCs before that one. I've grown quite accustomed to it, and honestly, I find a gentle fan hum comforting somehow. On the other hand, my wife's new machine, considerably more recent, has a side fan that changes speeds, and on high speed sounds like a jet engine... it drives me nuts. So, I'm looking for some comfort noise, but not lots of noise.

So, given my situation, is it necessary to use liquid cooling, or is the stock air cooling just fine for my particular use? If liquid cooling is highly recommended, then do I cool the CPU only, like I see so many kits offered on NewEgg, or do you guys really recommend liquid cooling other components as well... and if you recommend the gfx card in particular, how the heck to I apply it without voiding the card's warrantee? It's not like I can take it apart then complain to the manufacturer that it's busted. ;)

What do you all recommend for me? Liquid, stock air, or custom air?

One last question... are there any brands of cooling to look at in particular, and more importantly, certain brands to avoid? Same question for motherboard brands. I have this one shot to put together a kick-A system, I don't want to screw it up.
 
I would not suggest water for you.... I would get high end air, which is close to the same temps 5-10*C difference, and if you want to experiment with water then get a cheap $300 system, like a 754 setup or even 939, and have fun.


BUT DO NOT experiment for the first time with your $4000 system, IMO

I would use the tunq tower to cool that CPU, stock 8800gtx cooler, and a good case with proper case flow.... this will give you good temps.

Cases to look at..... something with multiple 120mm fans
lain li
silverstone
Antec p180 or 900
some thermaltake

as for brands go.....

video card...
i like XFX and eVGA

Motherboards...
eVGA, ASUS or DFI

RAM
OCZ, Gskill, GEIL

Heatsinks
Arctic Cooling Freezer, Tunq Tower, Scythe Ninja, Thermalright SI-12


don't get a cheap steel case with 80mm fans and an ALIEN HEAD on it

for $4,000
DO get
min 1TB of storage
arctic cooling, yate-loons or panaflo 120mm fans
2x2GB DDR800 RAM KIT
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231112

DO NOT USE ANY IDE DEVICES ALL SATA

do some good wire management like in the case/mod forum

take your time, read reviews on stuff, do you homework, and like you are doing ask questions



I will reiterate

I would definately recommend you NOT using any kind of watercooling on this build

good air will give you close to the same performance....
 
1)I'm not sure how you're going to fry any components of a system. That's really hard to do especially with the advancements of air cooling over the past few years. If you don't want to fry things be smart about how you approach your build/overclock

2) Leaks are a concern you'll have to deal with if you plan on liquid cooling. Again, if you're smart you won't have any. Use proper hose clamps and take your time and you'll be ok. I'm convinced the vast majority of people who have leaks just don't take their time. As far as condensation...you won't have any, it's a closed loop. I transport my system frequently and haven't had any problems with leaks nor am I concerned with any future problems. In fact, I plan on WC'ing my carpc here soon, the connections won't go anywhere if you move it from time to time.

3) It's a closed loop. If you have to refill something's wrong. If it's such a big concern get a reservoir that allows you to monitor the system.

4) If done right noise is something that you won't have with WC'ing. If you're concerned with noise I'd look at the other components of your system, especially the hard drives. Samsung's makes the quietest drives on the market right now. Check out the hard drive forums for dB rating on the hard drives. Seasonic's S12 power supplies are also a top choice for silent PC enthusiasts (please buy a good PSU regardless). Once you eliminate CPU/card fans with water cooling you'll notice everything else that makes noise inside your computer. If you air cool I'd suggest looking into replacing your fans with quieter options if noise is a concern.

It sounds like air cooling would suit you just fine but water cooling will work just as well. At this point I will water cool every computer I own from here on out, from a silence aspect it's the best investment I've ever made. Do not use the water cooling kits, build your own. I don't agree with Adida's enthusiasm towards not WC'ing though, it's really not that dangerous. The rest of your answers can be found using the search feature of the forums. FWIW, I think spending 4K on a computer is asinine.
 
my own main rig is watercooled with a custom built kit;
DD TDX
Maze4
alphacool chipset
BIP240+innovatek 120mm
Laing DCC aphacool top
tygon 3/8" tubing

all controlled with a mCubed Tbalancer

it is great but i worked up to it.... stock air-good air-water
and my first WC system wasnt my brand new $4k baby

that is the only reason i would not suggest water in this scenario...

you can get leaks, i had some in the beginning, my rig now has been running for 6mo w/o any maintenance other than dusting :)

for his first build in 4 year costing $4 grand and not having the $$ to replace expensive components does not seem like an idea learning situation.....
 
Adidas4275,

Thanks so much for your very valuable input... MUCH appreciated. I have most of the brands you recommended already selected: ASUS Mobo (glad to hear you approve!), GeIL ram (4 GB in 4x1 config to save $$$), but for the gfx card, I plan to buy the PNY model, I've purchased theirs before, and loved their product... but that was when Doom 3 came out, so if they've gone to $%^# since then, that would be good to know, so tell me if you know. :)

As far as HD space goes, for my needs, I need more than 1TB to be honest... between the games, coding, animation, and video editing I'm into, I use it fast. Oh, and that doesn't include testing installs via Virtual PC in earlier versions of Windows.. and those virtual drives take big space too. (In fact, I've got over a TB on my current system with IDE, was necessary to make 2 drives external for video just to have > 1TB) so I'm getting drive trays. This way, when coding, I can easily switch between XP and Vista by just shutting down, replacing the drive, and booting back up. Same with primary data drive. So, in short, I'll have some flexibility with drives. I have been doing the same thing on my current system and server... very handy... been using Vantec racks with the temp LED on the front.. absolutely love 'em.

I'm glad to hear your advice on cooling... a relief... I was a little nervous about the liquid bit... but I did like the idea of the look of the cooling tubes showing through the side panel with lights, thought it'd look wicked cool. But, I'm more about function these days, so I'll nix the liquid cooling for now... maybe I'll play with it next time my wife wants a new machine... muhuhahaha... ;)

As far as cases go, I had already narrowed it down to two (no alien heads, lol), but now I'm not so sure... the two I had in mind were: Thermaltake Swing VB6000BWS Black and LIAN LI PC-60BPLUSII W Black... both had good reviews on NewEgg... my requirements for a case are: good airflow, and no covers on the front to obscure my drive rack trays... and preferably black. Problem is, since your reply... neither has dual 120mm fans on the rear. The LIAN has 2 x 120mm fans, one on the side, and one in the front (intake, I guess), and an 80mm on the back. The Thermaltake has only 1 fan, 120mm on the back, and no side vent at all. (I preferred that because the place my PC has to go is to the immediate right of a 21" CRT monitor, not much room for venting on the side.) I guess you would't recommend either then? Should I keep looking?
 
Lian li cases are, in general, much MUCH nicer than anything else on the market (with the exception of Silverstone).

Be careful, once you buy one, you never go back :eek:
 
Thanks everyone for the great input. VERY much appreciated...

Regarding...

Blown 89 said:
FWIW, I think spending 4K on a computer is asinine.
Click to expand...

...you know what, I agree, it's a lot. It might even seem wasteful. If I was just gaming, or editing the occasional video clip, whatever, I'd get away with much less. The biggest single expense on my proposed system is actually HD storage. (Read my previous post) Due to my work-at-home programming job (I have my own company... albeit very small) I have need of multiple drives on trays that can be dropped in and out for OS. This is for testing and development. Though XP is still the primary OS, Vista will be within a year or two (same happened with XP when it first came out) and there will likely be a mix of 32 and 64 bit systems running by my customers, so right there I have four OS drives to buy, each with their own tray. There will be a total of 6 drives being purchased, and 6 trays (2 full kits + 4 separate trays), and that's going to be a small chunk of it. I wish it wasn't necessary, would like to keep the cash, honestly, but in my line of work, it's absolutely necessary. (Sure I could do the multi-boot thing, and if my budget was less, I'd be forced to do it, but that takes up valuable HD space on a single drive, and space is something I absolutely need a ton of.)

In any case, considering that the system needs to last at least 4 years, the only seemingly wasteful (aka NEW TOY) part of it is the dual gfx cards in SLI. I may not do it, but if it fits in my budget I just might... just for fun.

Besides.. just because the budget is 4k, doesn't mean I have to (or will) spend all of it. As of this moment, the config is ~ $3,800 with shipping.

Anyhoo.. thanks for all the input everyone... I'll keep monitoring the thread for a couple days in case anyone else has some great nuggets to share. :D
 
I suggest you wait until April 22. Intel will have price drops then, and your money will go farther

I also suggest that you have a PSU. Can't run a pc without one. Try the Silverstone Olympia 1kw.

Video card: I haven't exactly had luck with PNY since I've never had one, but from what I've heard, they're pretty crappy. Try eVGA.

case: Lian Li, no doubt.

cooling: Try the Thermalright Ultra 120 for the CPU.
 
If you need that much storage, why not get a case like a Lian-Li V2000 which has space for 12 disks internally? You can always stick two hot-swap bays (3 5.25" to 4 3.5") in the case and get another 8 that are hot swappable. I mean, right now, thats close to 15TB (using 750GB advertised size disks). And thats without any modification!
 
i do not believe PNY has lifetime warranty's

xfx is lifetime and transferable
evga allows you to change the stock cooling an not void + they have a step up program

i would not buy PNY
 
Granted, can't run a PC without a PSU... I didn't mention it, didn't seem important as far as cooling goes, but I had picked out the OCZ OCZ1000PXS, it's 1000w has 4 x 6Pin PCIE connectors, so perfect for 8800's in SLI, and had 100% positive reviews on NewEgg, albeit only 5 reviews total. Unless someone knows something different, like OCZ is generally crappy, then I'll stick with it.

Thanks everyone for the advice on PNY... guess they suck these days... my GeForce 6800 from them has worked very well, always runs cool with no special treatment, as did the GeForce 4600Ti I had before that (I'm pretty sure it was PNY too) and D3 runs great on the 6800 at 1280. But again, that was a couple years ago... guess they've changed. <sigh> So, XFX or eVGA... preferably eVGA if I ever decide to liq. cool it due to warranty... so thanks guys SOOO much.

And Bbq.. thanks for the tip on the upcoming Intel price drop... does this mean they're releasing their 45nm tech in a few days? That might change my specs a bit since that'll have the SSE4 instruction set, which has some string instructions I want to take advantage of in my new code. (Via function pointer array, so I can still support older systems.) I had thought SSE4 wouldn't be available for the public until 2008.

Regarding the FW900, I presume you mean that Sony 24" monitor. I have dual monitors at 21" already with my current system @ 1600x1200 each, one a CRT for gaming, and the other an LCD for programming (cleaner text at native res)... I'll keep them TYVM. :) Thanks for the advice though. ;)

Jomanscool2... that's kind of the idea, but not quite that drastic. I don't need hot swappables though, in fact, couldn't use them for the OS drives at all. Those by definition must be swapped when powered off, lol. ;) (Unless of course if they were on a RAID array, like my server, but even then to switch OS's I'd have to power down.) But anyhow... yep, lot's of space, but still portable. (I take all critical data with me when I go away for the weekend, etc., in case of robbery... they're getting my source code over my dead body!)
 
I don't suggest the OCZ psu, until there is a good review. Not a NEwegg review, but someone with an ATE, O-scope, etc. Someone like www.jonnyguru.com. The OCZ is unproven, and newegg reviews mean nothing. One alternative though, is the Ultra X3 1kw.
 
I was able to run my system at 3.2ghz (an e6700) with a scythe infinity stack. If you have room, it's a great cooler. It was running at 53-54c at 100%. Now that I'm running water, I can get 3.6ghz at 50-52c. Water is not necessary, but it can take you farther. I'm running a frankin monster water system with parts from home depot and wal-mart...and I'm not losing any coolant to evap.

 
I found this case after much digging...

Has 2 x 120mm fans, one front, one back. (Well... sorta... the front one must be purchased separately, but that's OK) Plus 3 x 80mm fans on the side, which might make that 120mm in the front unnecessary to install, but point is, seems to have great airflow, and users report it not being very loud. It has the transparent window and on the RIGHT of the case (which is perfect for my setup, since on the left of my PC is a big honkin monitor with no where else to put either.

It's not expensive (100 bux):D , has plenty of bays (10 5.25 external) which I can use also for HDD's, with adapters of course, but I don't mind the work of futzing with adapters to 5.25 bays.

AeroCool Masstige BLK Black Steel ATX Mid Tower Computer Case - Retail Your thoughts anyone? Look like a winner for my impending Core 2 Extreme Quad system?

If you tell me AeroCool is complete @#$%, then I'll keep looking, but if this is a decent case (even if it's not a Sliverstone, Lian Li or Antec 900. (I am still considering the Antec 900, looked at it, like to some, but don't like the non-flat top, where I put my external video drives via USB. Can live with finding a new home for those though.) So, the AeroCool shown any good? Any thoughts?:)
 
I'll be another voter to say that you don't need WCing. You aren't overclocking and it seems that you are interested in building an extremely nice stock system instead of trying to OC a less expensive system like a lot of us.

Either way, watercooling is NEVER necessary unless you are OCing for the most part.

Get a Silverstone TJ-09 and that will cool your VCs well and the rest of the system should get some nice air as well. Fill it with panaflo, Silverstone does have some nice stock fans from what I hear. I would definitely upgrade the main intake fan though.

My favorite HSF is the Ultra 120. They have a "Plus" or "Extreme" version out, so I'd opt for that one with a nice panaflo or something.

Btw, you may want to hold off just a bit and see if you would rather have the ATI cards that are hopefully going to come out soon.
I wish I had 4k to build a system, lucky you! Good Luck!
 
I've watercooled for years, the last four to be exact and recently I moved to high end air just to see what all the hoopla was about. Let me just say that water is much better for overall lower temps on the CPU and GPU(s). I went from 38C under load on the CPU and 42C on the GPU to 48C on the CPU and 72C on the GPU. Needless to say I'm in the process of hammering my loop into my new case.

IMHO the guys that poo-poo water cooling as too risky or too likely to be harmful have either never tried it or tried it and didn't execute it correctly and killed something. The guys that say it's too expensive don't stop to consider that generally a good loop can outlast every other piece of gear in your PC by years if properly maintained. With the advent of universal CPU blocks you can pretty much be assured that even with the introduction of new sockets and retaining methods you'll be able to buy an adapter for your block and move to a new socket when the time comes. The GPU only blocks are pretty much like that too.
 
madmat said:
I've watercooled for years, the last four to be exact and recently I moved to high end air just to see what all the hoopla was about. Let me just say that water is much better for overall lower temps on the CPU and GPU(s). I went from 38C under load on the CPU and 42C on the GPU to 48C on the CPU and 72C on the GPU. Needless to say I'm in the process of hammering my loop into my new case.

IMHO the guys that poo-poo water cooling as too risky or too likely to be harmful have either never tried it or tried it and didn't execute it correctly and killed something. The guys that say it's too expensive don't stop to consider that generally a good loop can outlast every other piece of gear in your PC by years if properly maintained. With the advent of universal CPU blocks you can pretty much be assured that even with the introduction of new sockets and retaining methods you'll be able to buy an adapter for your block and move to a new socket when the time comes. The GPU only blocks are pretty much like that too.
Click to expand...


QFT...........Been at this water cooling game for more than a few years, and even though I use air (testing) my system always goes back to water. You just can't beat the niose level vers cooling performance, and it's a even a bigger differance when OC'ing a little (3.7 GHz out of a E4300).
 
madmat said:
IMHO the guys that poo-poo water cooling as too risky or too likely to be harmful have either never tried it or tried it and didn't execute it correctly and killed something. The guys that say it's too expensive don't stop to consider that generally a good loop can outlast every other piece of gear in your PC by years if properly maintained. With the advent of universal CPU blocks you can pretty much be assured that even with the introduction of new sockets and retaining methods you'll be able to buy an adapter for your block and move to a new socket when the time comes. The GPU only blocks are pretty much like that too.
Click to expand...

I agree completely, but the reason I still would not recommend the WC direction for the OP is in your response:

madmat said:
...if properly maintained.
Click to expand...

What qualifies as "maintenance" with an HSF vs what qualifies as "maintenance" in a WC loop are rather extremely different. Admittedly the hard part of WC maintenance doesn't need to be done often, but since it should be done eventually (certainly with in 4 years), I think the OP should stick to high end air. Then there is the point that he does not want to overclock (though that might eventually change, of course).

I think the OP should definitely replace the stock cooling on the GTXs he is looking at due to the poor mounting job done by the vendors on those cards, and the fact that the stock coolers can get very loud (based on his given preference for no whine). Look at high end air solutions for the 8800GTX with a focus on noise levels. Maybe install them with stock cooling first, just to make sure it is objectionable, but I expect it will be at air flow levels that provide adequate cooling. I'd offer suggestions in that regard, but I use WC and haven't looked into it myself. I would have, but WC worked out very well for me with a 45C load temp @ 665Mhz core on my 8800GTS.

I would also like to throw in a recommendation for Patriot Memory. They have rather inexpensive modules that run DDR2-800 @ 1.8v, with that programmed into the SPD, and that could make your life easier as far as getting the machine to boot up the first time. Check these out (not 2GB, but still):

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820220088

It would be useless for overclocking, due to no heat spreaders, but I don't think that is your plan anyway. I have also dealt with their tech support, and it is very responsive. Nothing like USA assembly and USA-based tech support. :cool:

Oh, and I'm curious, what motherboard are you thinking of at this point?
 
Betrayer00GT said:
I agree completely, but the reason I still would not recommend the WC direction for the OP is in your response:



What qualifies as "maintenance" with an HSF vs what qualifies as "maintenance" in a WC loop are rather extremely different. Admittedly the hard part of WC maintenance doesn't need to be done often, but since it should be done eventually (certainly with in 4 years), I think the OP should stick to high end air. Then there is the point that he does not want to overclock (though that might eventually change, of course).

I think the OP should definitely replace the stock cooling on the GTXs he is looking at due to the poor mounting job done by the vendors on those cards, and the fact that the stock coolers can get very loud (based on his given preference for no whine). Look at high end air solutions for the 8800GTX with a focus on noise levels. Maybe install them with stock cooling first, just to make sure it is objectionable, but I expect it will be at air flow levels that provide adequate cooling. I'd offer suggestions in that regard, but I use WC and haven't looked into it myself. I would have, but WC worked out very well for me with a 45C load temp @ 665Mhz core on my 8800GTS.

I would also like to throw in a recommendation for Patriot Memory. They have rather inexpensive modules that run DDR2-800 @ 1.8v, with that programmed into the SPD, and that could make your life easier as far as getting the machine to boot up the first time. Check these out (not 2GB, but still):

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820220088

It would be useless for overclocking, due to no heat spreaders, but I don't think that is your plan anyway. I have also dealt with their tech support, and it is very responsive. Nothing like USA assembly and USA-based tech support. :cool:

Oh, and I'm curious, what motherboard are you thinking of at this point?
Click to expand...


Draining, flushing with distilled water and refilling once a year to 18 months is hardly any worse than dismounting the fan from your heat sink and blowing the fins out nice and proper. Yeah you have to blow the rad out but it's generally pretty easy to get to both sides.
 
madmat said:
Draining, flushing with distilled water and refilling once a year to 18 months is hardly any worse than dismounting the fan from your heat sink and blowing the fins out nice and proper. Yeah you have to blow the rad out but it's generally pretty easy to get to both sides.
Click to expand...

Hmm...

Canned air a couple times a year is all I have ever done with an HSF. I have used the same one for >5 years in a couple cases. No issues. They were hardly high-end HSFs, either.

Flushing an assembled loop with distilled water three times doesn't seem sufficient to me after 4 years of usage. I would think that vinegar's involvement in some manner would be highly recommended, even if any disassembly was not.

Also, each drain/fill/flush requires re-bleeding, which I could not do with the loop installed in my case. Removing the rad and GPU/CPU waterblocks is a bit more involved than canned air on an HSF. I do use a t-line, however.
 
ghost6303 said:
mmmhmm :p
Click to expand...

ghost6303, you sound skeptical about my saying I wasn't a stranger to the inside of the box... granted, being a coder of about 25 years, and that being my primary focus, I'm sure I haven't spent as much time tinkering inside the box as so many of you (for which I'm somewhat envious, I wish I had more time for it), I really am not a stranger to working with hardware. If you check out my post here on HardForum a year and a half ago on how to make a PSU fit a case it doesn't fit when you have no other option, you'll see I've done some modding too... in that situation I wasn't modding for fun though, I was under the gun and had to get that machine working over the weekend, and I was under lease so could not cut the stupid proprietary Dell case. It was an interesting project.

Anyhow, I know you were just goofin', me being a total n00b compared to most of you that have the wonderful luxury of time to really get into it (again, for which I am a bit envious), but point is, when I do my homework I can get the job done (the homework being necessary since I've been out of the loop on brands and up-to-date procedures and such, who's good these days, who's not)...

And so once again, I thank ALL of you that participated in this thread... you've given me some really great ideas and advice, and it is most welcome!! Even you ghost6303, lol. :p
 
Betrayer00GT said:
Oh, and I'm curious, what motherboard are you thinking of at this point?
Click to expand...

I had one all picked out, but it disappeared from my NewEgg wishlist... sigh... guess they're not selling that one anymore. I looked again, and I'm considering two:
ASUS P5N32-E SLI LGA 775 NVIDIA nForce 680i SLI ATX Intel Motherboard
EVGA 122-CK-NF68-T1 LGA 775 NVIDIA nForce 680i SLI ATX Intel Motherboard

Both seem good & appropriate, but the memory for the eVGA board being DDR2 1200 is considerably more expensive... albeit presumably 50% faster than then DDR2 800. Toss up. I'm bummed though, the ASUS board I had picked out before had support for 6 SATA and 4 ATA... was hoping to use drives from my current system for archiving.
 
Okay... so I'm getting from everyone, average out the advice from all the posts that if I don't ever want to overclock, then air cooling is just fine, provided that I pick out stuff that's not noisy. So, if I decide I want to crank up the QX6700 to the level of the upcoming QX6800 (roughly 10% faster as I understand it), then I should definitely use watercooling, right? All this talk of overclocking's got me curious... after all, why pay $1100-$1200 for he new QX6800 if a $900-$950 QX6700 will do exactly the same thing with a little OC.

Oh yeah, and no one commented yet on the case I've found. I'd really like to hear some thoughts on it... it seems perfect, but I don't want to get it if someone says "AeroCool cases suck big", lol. Nice layout and design are great, but not if the thing falls apart, eh?
 
after all, why pay $1100-$1200 for he new QX6800 if a $900-$950 QX6700 will do exactly the same thing with a little OC.
Click to expand...
before the core2 line came out, overclocking meant 10-20% stock speed. 30% was considered extreme overclocking. but with core2s 50% overclock isnt uncommon. these chips overclock so easily its considered around here pointless to buy one and NOT overclock it, atleast a little. even with no aftermarket cooling. 10-20% overclock is nothing for these guys, you will barely see a temp increase, yet you get considerably more power. now these quad cores throw out tons of heat so if you want to get a little more out of them an aftermarket heatsink is a good idea. this alone will not add too much noise to the case, but those 8800s come with some loud ass fans, alot of people go the water cooling route just for the quiet. and theres some people saying dont do this because its your first build, but i say you got to start somewhere. my first wc system was on a $3500 P4 system i put together in highschool. just take your time, read up and play around with the WC gear before mixing it with your computer hardware. and one thing i learned, you CAN use the clear PVC tubing for $3/20feet you find at home depot, but that stuff is so thin leaks are inevitable. if you spend some money on nice tubing (tygon, masterkleer, etc) some nice soft 1/4" thick walled tubing will almost eliminate leaks, ive never had a single leak sence i stoped being cheap and started using tygon.

edit:
ive never used that case but it looks like its got some room in it considering its only a mid tower.
also on the motherboard: if you ever have problems with an asus board, need drivers, need tech support, need RMA your kinda shit out of luck. they have aguably the worst customer service in the business. i would go with evga just because its not asus.
and in regards to your hard drives... unless you need 10 individual drives (no raid) i would get a PCI SATA controler card. this way if(when) your motherboard blows up you can take your whole raid array controler and all and put it in another computer and get all the data. if your using onboard and it breaks, you have to get the same exact board and exact same firmware to get your data back, which can be impossible sometimes.

and ive done a little case moddin myself before hehe
link 1
link 2
link 3
 
Got to be the first footrest case I've ever seen, nice :) I thought about making a really cool case and having all of the non-metal parts fabbed as a prototype at a plastic fab company, but it's REALLY expensive... totally not worth it unless I actually intend to do a run of them and sell them, but I don't have time for that. Would have been fun though. I also thought of converting one of my desk drawers into a PC to save space, but I didn't want to lose drawer space and worried about heat dissipation. Would have been interesting though.

Anyhow... I think I'm going to go with the Arctic 7 HSF, seems to be decent, and not too bad pricewise.

I'm stilling hoping to see some thumbs up or down on the case I picked here at NewEgg
 
haha in the last 5 minuits that case is
Out of Stock (ETA:04/23/2007) :p

well i guess that means people are buying them so they cant be too horrible
 
Betrayer00GT said:
Hmm...

Canned air a couple times a year is all I have ever done with an HSF. I have used the same one for >5 years in a couple cases. No issues. They were hardly high-end HSFs, either.

Flushing an assembled loop with distilled water three times doesn't seem sufficient to me after 4 years of usage. I would think that vinegar's involvement in some manner would be highly recommended, even if any disassembly was not.

Also, each drain/fill/flush requires re-bleeding, which I could not do with the loop installed in my case. Removing the rad and GPU/CPU waterblocks is a bit more involved than canned air on an HSF. I do use a t-line, however.
Click to expand...

I'm a res man. I built a PC for a friend in FL that had a T-line and I won't own one. Filling and bleeding takes me about 10 minutes.
 
Tonyrat said:
Oh yeah, and no one commented yet on the case I've found. I'd really like to hear some thoughts on it... it seems perfect, but I don't want to get it if someone says "AeroCool cases suck big", lol. Nice layout and design are great, but not if the thing falls apart, eh?
Click to expand...

I'm not that hip on the Masstige because it seems a bit smaller on the inside than I care for. I had a Tt Armor though and it had a ton of room inside and was very well constructed. To each his (or her) own though, if you like the case I don't see any reason to avoid it, I've read good things about it from folks that have used it.
 
Tonyrat said:
EVGA 122-CK-NF68-T1 LGA 775 NVIDIA nForce 680i SLI ATX Intel Motherboard

Both seem good & appropriate, but the memory for the eVGA board being DDR2 1200 is considerably more expensive... albeit presumably 50% faster than then DDR2 800.
Click to expand...

Well, the comment before about ASUS and their tech support and website (oh lord, especially the website) are true. It is pretty bad. I use them (exclusively, actually) because I have never had a problem with an ASUS board, ever. I hear good things about eVGA, and their board is cheaper. You should go with the eVGA, in my opinion, just to avoid the ASUS website. I put up with it, but ASUS and I have history. :eek:

I do not know what you mean by "the memory for the eVGA board being DDR2 1200". Any board you get will use any speed memory you put in it. "At what speed" is the only question. Well, that and if it just won't work in a given board, period. Also, regarding memory "speed" vs memory ratings (DDR2-1066/PC2-8500, etc), I have a thread that shows some details on my ASUS P5N32-E SLI Plus. It is definitely not as simple as "1200 is 50% faster than 800". Check it out if you are interested.
 
I had been told by a friend that you don't want to put an older standard memory into a newer standard board, or it could cause problems, but you can put a newer standard memory in an older board since the memory will just not run at its full potential on the board with the older specs. Assuming he knew what he was talking about, I assumed I'd have to buy DDR2 1200 RAM, in which case, it's much more expensive than DDR2 800 unless someone knows of a deal :)
 
This is my 2 cents, I have a old P4 3.2 Prescott and we all know how hot Prescotts got, even though when I first bought it as just for an upgrade not to OC, I installed water cooling on it since the stock cooling worked but temps were in the 50-60's. Main reason why I did that to not only drop CPU temps to 30C, but to keep case temps down also.

I still have it to this day non OCed with water cooling even though I got new CPU (stock cooled).

Also I am thinking on getting water cooling for my new rig just because I got a 8800GXT (they get hot) just to exent its life and if I feel like OCing it I got the head room.
 
We are still a ways away from genuinely requiring water cooling for stock clocked components, but water cooling does have many advantages.

I'm mostly saying this to defend water cooling, but with the proper components, you can cool your CPU, GPU(s), and nearly every other heat producing component (although not recommended because of the additional cost and negligable, if not detrimental, performance result) with less noise at lower, more stable temperatures.

Since you do have a sizeable budget, what you can do for now is assemble your rig (with air) and save a few hundred bucks if you feel the water bug later on. With a brand new rig that needs to last you for a while, the stress of ensuring everything works is plenty enough without worrying if you'll fry everything in it.

Given proper care and enough time for research and assembly, water cooling can be just as safe (if not safer) than air, and require an annual check up at most. If you use quality distilled water and the proper additives, you should be able to just drain the fluid once a year (install a T-line pointing down with an adequate plug - easy draining) if you notice any gunk building up. With quality tubing and additives that properly dissolve, you might notice a few fluid ounces at most lost a year (here in Southern CA, with inside case temperatures usually around 35*C, I've lost about 4 inches of water in my T-line).

Quick and dirty answer: Good air will be fine for now. Once you feel the desire for higher OCs and lower temperatures/noise levels, look into water cooling.
 
Tonyrat said:
I had been told by a friend that you don't want to put an older standard memory into a newer standard board, or it could cause problems, but you can put a newer standard memory in an older board since the memory will just not run at its full potential on the board with the older specs. Assuming he knew what he was talking about, I assumed I'd have to buy DDR2 1200 RAM, in which case, it's much more expensive than DDR2 800 unless someone knows of a deal :)
Click to expand...

What your friend said does not correspond to reality. Or your misunderstanding of what he said doesn't, either way. :p

The standard is DDR2. It was made some time ago. The number 800/PC2-6400 or 1066/PC2-8500 is just the frequency it operates at/theoretical bandwidth at that frequency. It is all the same "standard". You can't use DDR in a DDR2 board (different standards) but you would figure that out when they physically wouldn't fit in the slot.

Regarding the frequency, you just buy what you can afford. I went with 1066/PC2-8500, but a friend went with 800/PC2-6400 becuase he was more price sensitive and didn't want to go from 2GB to 1GB to cover the increased cost of the increased speed.

There have been a couple posts since he said that and no one wants to back me up here? Common guys, someone? :D
 
if you are running at stock speeds or close to it you dont need more then PC6400 ram, obviously the higher the rating the better it is but if you get PC8500 and run your processor at stock speed, you will only be using like 70% of the rated 8500 so the extra 30% is a complete waste of (lots of) money unless you plan on overclocking then that 30% comes in handy, pc8500 is substantialy more then 6400, about twice as much.

did you decide on a motherboard? we can give you links to ram that will work the best for it if you did.
 
ghost6303 said:
if you are running at stock speeds or close to it you dont need more then PC6400 ram
Click to expand...

Yeah, if you keep the stock 1066FSB, paying the premium for 1066Mhz (PC2-8500) memory is kind of a waste. It isn't as if the RAM is the only thing that needs to communicate over the FSB, so having them both run at the same speed means some of the capability of the RAM wil go unused. I run a 1466FSB, and I am happy running PC2-8500.

To be honest, however...

I only got it in the first place becuase I originally had a really picky Intel 965-based board that needed PC2-6400 @ CAS 5 or 6 w/the JEDEC 1.8v spec. Ram that will run at that speed with those timings using that voltage is not normally sold as PC2-6400. Even if it is, it is sold as CAS 4 @ 2.2v or some such. The only stuff I could find at the vendor I had to use was some Kingston HyperX PC2-8500.

This is why he asks if you have selected a motherboard, yet. Different motherboards have different "taste" in memory modules (taste=restrictions). Again, I would recommend the eVGA 680i board you pointed out at Newegg for ~$205.
 
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