Is TEC worth the hassle?

fore1337

fore1337

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Sep 28, 2004
Messages
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Thinking about going with TEC.

I’ve got a ½” Danger Den DIY WC setup.
I’ll be chilling a P4 550 LGA775 CPU.

I will either try mounting a (62 x 62 x 3.55mm) TEC Module using the TDX (and cold plates), or I may opt to go with something like
Wintsch Labs Arctic Web Liquid Cooled 437Watt Thermoelectric Assembly

In either case I'll have to beef up my WC system with a second loop: heater core, second water pump & plumbing.

I’ll need to pick up a sweet Meanwell 24V 600W PSU

Case is either a Lian-Li V2000 or a CM Stacker
What do you guys on TEC think?
 
you can't use a TEC with a TDX. TDX is too small and uses jet impignment which focuses the cooling on the processor die. Go with the Maze4.
 
Mr. Tinker said:
you can't use a TEC with a TDX. TDX is too small and uses jet impignment which focuses the cooling on the processor die. Go with the Maze4.
Click to expand...

I never thought about that with the TDX, good point!

I guess I could go Maze-4.

What about this ugly thing?: Wintsch Labs Arctic Web Liquid Cooled 437Watt Thermoelectric Assembly
ex-blc-134.jpg
 
the wintsch needs a BIG rad, big fans, high-flow pump and a bigger dedicated PSU.

all in all, it adds up to a MUCH larger pricetag.

using my 226 watt pelt, i have not gotten the gains that i was really hoping for, since fully overclocked i get 17 C temps, which is getting close to ambient.

the wintsch might or might not be able to keep that furnace of a processor as cool as you might hope, and at that point a guy can really start to hate the world............
 
I'm prepaerd to create a seperate water loop for the Wintsch Labs block.
I don't know where to get a dedicated 300W 24V PSU.

I've got an extra heater core & tubing to use.
Hmm I do have an extra AC water pump too.
If I got the auxillary PSU, I could power my other cooling items from it as well (fans, pumps, lights etc.).

extra costs to me:
Wintsch Labs Block $140 (frozencpu.com)
Danger Den 12V pump $75 (dangerden.com)
24V 600W Meanwell PSU ?$??
Heavy gage wire $cheap$
Dual 12cm Heater core shroud & 2 fans. $30
 
for the rad: you should really try for something 3 x 120mm.

i'm usinging a 2x120, with about 100 watts less load than you're looking at having, and i have to run my fans up near full power when i'm overclcoked to keep my coolant temps less than 40C. (i use panaflo 115 CFM fans)

since the peltier modules can generate a 60 C temp difference at their best, you REALLY need to keep your temps below 50 C, and ideally have them as close to 25 C as you can manage. a 3 fan rad will help you to run better coolant temps, and allow for quieter fans.

the alternate PSU solution, if you can't get the meanwell 600 and you're really set on going for it, is to wire up two meanwell 320 watt units in series. it's easy, and i'm willing to help you to the best of my ability.

additionally, if you end up using a meanwell 320 watt either for a 226 watt pelt or for series opperation, i have some reference pics for how to swap out the loud and fast-dying 60mm sunon for whatever 80 mm you would like to put in there.

for the case: i would really suggest picking up a cheap server case somewhere, and doing a trial run with that, before hacking into something really nice.

it is kind of tricky to mount everything and make it fit properly.
 
fore1337 said:
I never thought about that with the TDX, good point!

I guess I could go Maze-4.

What about this ugly thing?: Wintsch Labs Arctic Web Liquid Cooled 437Watt Thermoelectric Assembly
ex-blc-134.jpg
Click to expand...
AFAIK, the only person in the world with one of those is NoAffinity, a mod at the ExtremeOverclocking.com forums. He's really friendly and quite knowledgeable.

http://forums.extremeoverclocking.com/showthread.php?t=160681
 
This would get me a second water loop. A 3X12cm Radiator just for the TEC circuit, and a 2x12cm loop for the GPU & chipset Maze-4 blocks.

This would require some crazy sized case… like a stacker or something. …I don’t know where I’d put the 3x12cm radiator (well it could fit in the top of my Lian-Li V2000)

Est street prices
Black Ice Extreme3 $120
SE-600-24 600W 24vm $160
Wintsch Labs Block $140
Danger Den 12V pump $75
Dual 12cm Heater core shroud & 5x 12cm fans. $65
Est Sub total: $560
Est after shipping & or tax $616

I can’t help but see the complexity of my WC setup increase dramatically.
I’ve seen some water chiller units in the ballpark of $400 - $600

Comparatively speaking, what can that $600 buy me in terms of phase change?

Here’s a water chiller for $360
I'm just worried about it's cooling capacity, even if I feed it ambient temperature water.
http://www.aquastealth.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=96

but then there is the obvious solution (VC-ls)
 
i think that i said at the beginning that i was not seeing good enough gains from my pelt solution to reccomend pelt cooling to anyone. if you want to cut down on cost, time, labour, and condensation problems, plain watercooling all the way.

that being said, let me try to simplify your layout for you a bit:

1) ditch the chipset waterblock. a good chipset air cooler like the swiftech MCX159 or the thermalright NB-1c will keep you chipset as cool or cooler than watercooling it will. this has the additional benifit of improving your coolant flow. one less waterblock to buy, one more aheatsink to buy. probably no monetary savings.

2) pop your GPU waterblock into the same cooling loop as the CPU. position the GPU block before the CPU block, in the loop. a three fan rad should bea able to keep your coolant below 40 C, and that is about as good as the graphics core has any right to expect. one less rad, one less pump and two fewer fans should drop your price somewhat

3) i would actually reccomend the thermochill 120.3 or the BIP3 over the BIX3, for this application. they just generates less air resistance, and can often get better results. you should have fans with serious kick, though, and then dial them down as needed for noise reasons.

4) it would probably be a good idea to get something with higher flow than your proposed pump, given how quickly you coolant will heat up inside of your CPU block. that dangerden pump is really nice for straight up watercooling, as many people on these forums will attest, but i think that for what you are looking at, you need more output.

you will get better performance out of the pelt waterblock than with the water chiller you linked to, if you can keep your coolant temps down, and whichever you choose, you are looking at some serious condensation control measures.
 
Thanks DFDaishi, I replumbed as advised. ...since then I've been messing around with my water circuit.
(hodgepodge of various emails)

CPU P4 (550) LGA775 3.4Ghz 1mb L2 cache (.01V below stock 1.41V for a P4 CPU)
MEM 1024 PC4000 DDR1 memory GPU NV6800Uoc PSU 480W Antec Neo
Quick and stable OC, first iteration.
235 fsb clock (200mhz stock)

*17= 3995mhz core (3400mhz stock)
*4 = 940 FSB (800mhz stock)

Rock solid during video benchmarks and gaming. ~5,500 3D 2k5 marks.

New water circuit, I dropped the Northbridge waterblock & went back to stock HSK w/80mm fan. I used to have a Y-connector split the flow between the CPU & GPU... but now they are in series for higher flow rates. Water temp @ radiator is ambient. ~27C (it's kinda warm around the computers)
Flow path
27C 47C 45C
Radiator --> GPU --> CPU --> Reservoir

So* my gear is about 20C (~40F) above ambient @ 4Ghz. Not too bad.

I haven't yet OCed the GPU in this new configuration, but a standard
OC I've been running stable in FarCry Doom3 and HL2 has been (no artifacts @ all):

here's an update from Monday....

I dropped my multiplier from 17 to 14 then cranked up the FSB to 250mhz. Since I got 250mhz memory I figured what the heck! *not very stable*

250x2 == 500mhz DDR Memory Mode (PC4000 memory @ 2.6V 3-4-4-8)
250x4 == 1000mhz FSB (1mb of L2) (800mhz stock)
250x14 == 3500mhz Core CPU. (3400mhz stock)

Centegrade Temps were in the 30's(14 mult) vs. the 40's(17 mult) ...and I was getting the effective speeds of a P4 3.5EE (Extreme Edition) That's like 10-15C above ambient air temperature.

I didn't have time to overvolt to get this thing stable.. But that may become my main game mode. (if I get it to work) Lower Core speed, but 1Ghz FSB.
I couldn't get 3DMark 2k5 to run on it yet.

...either way it goes, this chip is friggin awesome!
DFI is just shaweet for Overclocking. I'm mo impressed.

I still can't use any SATA devices when OCing though. PATA all the way.


So far my highest stable Over Clock is: 20% ...but I have to do some overvolting on the chip to get there.
VCore required 1.525V
VDimm required 2.7V
240FSB
240x2=480mhz memory mode
240x4=960mhz fsb
240x17=4080mhz core
Around 48C under load.

conclusion:
new water circuit is working great.
if my load temps are approaching 48C under load for the CPU.
...what could I expect with an insane TEC solution?

most likely it would allow me to OC up to 250FSB no?
 
DFI Daishi said:
1) ditch the chipset waterblock. a good chipset air cooler like the swiftech MCX159 or the thermalright NB-1c will keep you chipset as cool or cooler than watercooling it will. this has the additional benifit of improving your coolant flow. one less waterblock to buy, one more aheatsink to buy. probably no monetary savings.
Click to expand...
Using stock HSK w/ AS5 and 8cm fan directly overhead for time being. Great results.
DFI Daishi said:
2) pop your GPU waterblock into the same cooling loop as the CPU. position the GPU block before the CPU block, in the loop. a three fan rad should bea able to keep your coolant below 40 C, and that is about as good as the graphics core has any right to expect. one less rad, one less pump and two fewer fans should drop your price somewhat
Click to expand...
done
DFI Daishi said:
3) i would actually reccomend the thermochill 120.3 or the BIP3 over the BIX3, for this application. they just generates less air resistance, and can often get better results. you should have fans with serious kick, though, and then dial them down as needed for noise reasons.
Click to expand...
I have a second 2x12cm heater core on hand... however I've researched it out and like the ThermoChill 120.3 a whole bunch.
DFI Daishi said:
4) it would probably be a good idea to get something with higher flow than your proposed pump, given how quickly you coolant will heat up inside of your CPU block. that dangerden pump is really nice for straight up watercooling, as many people on these forums will attest, but i think that for what you are looking at, you need more output.
Click to expand...
I can't believe how much better the cooling capacity of my D40 is now that I haven't split the flow.
What high flow pumps are reccomended?

DFI Daishi said:
you will get better performance out of the pelt waterblock than with the water chiller you linked to, if you can keep your coolant temps down, and whichever you choose, you are looking at some serious condensation control measures.
Click to expand...
I'm guessing that I'll experience less condensation using TEC, versus water chilling, or phaze change (VapoChill)
I just can't help but think about how a few bux more can get me the LightSpeed unit.
 
fore1337 said:
I'm guessing that I'll experience less condensation using TEC, versus water chilling, or phaze change (VapoChill)
I just can't help but think about how a few bux more can get me the LightSpeed unit.
Click to expand...

Of course you'll get more condensation from a phase change unit than a TEC. That's because it gets much colder, and works much better!
 
what high flow pump you use depends on budget, availability, size and noise.

apparently, the ultimate envy-item class pump for watercooling is an "iwaki" pump. it's expensive. i use a supreame magdrive series 9.5. it is also expensive, but not as much so. i actually got a deal on mine...........

what i would suggest doing, is finding and visiting an aquarium specialty store. talk to the staff there about what pumps can: get you about 300 GPH at 6 ft head (damn imperial units), that will last a long time, and see what kind of prices they can get you.

i was only reccomending a higher flow pump if and when you move over to TEC, just so we're clear.

and any time you go sub-ambient, you should waterproof everything like it's going to start raining at any moment. the waterproofing step is cheap, if time consuming, and represents an extra level of safety.

price vs performance of TEC vs phase change.................i just don't know. phase change hardware is really hard to come by up here, and the places that have it therefore charge a premium price for it.

i don't konw intel, so i really can't tell you what kinds of gains you're looking at, if you decide to go for TEC.
 
i suppose that instead of getting a new 3-fan rad, you could get an absolutely stupid-powerfull pump and use both of your existing 2-fan rads...................

do i have that correct? on 2-fan rad currently in use, and a second sitting and looking pretty.
 
DFI Daishi said:
i suppose that instead of getting a new 3-fan rad, you could get an absolutely stupid-powerfull pump and use both of your existing 2-fan rads...................

do i have that correct? on 2-fan rad currently in use, and a second sitting and looking pretty.
Click to expand...

That's correct. I'm going to pick up a ThermoChill 120.2 fan shroud and pair of fans for the other 'sitting pretty' heater core. ...it's just sitting there on the shelf, never been used.

I actually figured out a way to mount and get some massive airflow through those 2 cores in my Lian-Li V-2000 case. ...and still look pimp.

The decision was either a 2nd D40 pump and 2nd loop (shared reservoir), or a single insane-crazy pump.

WTF is wrong with me? my WC rig is fine though.
 
fore1337 said:
That's correct. I'm going to pick up a ThermoChill 120.2 fan shroud and pair of fans for the other 'sitting pretty' heater core. ...it's just sitting there on the shelf, never been used.

I actually figured out a way to mount and get some massive airflow through those 2 cores in my Lian-Li V-2000 case. ...and still look pimp.

The decision was either a 2nd D40 pump and 2nd loop (shared reservoir), or a single insane-crazy pump.

WTF is wrong with me? my WC rig is fine though.
Click to expand...

Your WC rig is fine, and subambient really isn't going to net you much, for a whole lot of risk. Someone lately, I *think* it was DFI Daishi posted the results of pelts gone wrong. Take a good look at that thread. I've done the pelt route on two serparate systems. The cooling performance wasn't there. I've learned some since then, and I'd be willing to try again some time soon, but I'm lacking the money. Your setup with the 120.3 is a good route, as would be a BIP3. BIX3 offers too much resistance as DFI Daishi said.
 
mwarps said:
Your WC rig is fine, and subambient really isn't going to net you much, for a whole lot of risk. Someone lately, I *think* it was DFI Daishi posted the results of pelts gone wrong. Take a good look at that thread. I've done the pelt route on two serparate systems. The cooling performance wasn't there. I've learned some since then, and I'd be willing to try again some time soon, but I'm lacking the money. Your setup with the 120.3 is a good route, as would be a BIP3. BIX3 offers too much resistance as DFI Daishi said.
Click to expand...

heheheh that's my baby!

http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=884844&page=1

pelts gone VERY wrong.

i've learned a lot since then, and am kind of hoping to help at least a few people who do peltier cooling in the future to avoid my fate.

suprisingly enough, although my graphics card was also peltier cooled, by virtue of it's position within the loop and it's lower powered pelt (80 watts) the card survived. i am still using it.
 
Holy crap!
I felt the brush of death while reading your thread.

I've run my WC several times alone during the day, but the motherboard is set to shut down the PC after a certain cutoff temp is reached.

Peltier adds an entirely new variable to the equation.

if my WC runs when the PC is off, nothing bad happens.
if a TEC runs when the PC is off, PEOPLE DIE! was that too dramatic?
 
simply putting your dedicated 12 V psu for the pelts on a relay, controlled by the 12 V rail of your regular PSU is the #1 saftey measure that would have saved my system, and everyone who tries peltier cooling should use.

as i said in the other thread, i'm having one hell of a time diagraming out my secondary shutdown, and a picture of the blakc plastic project box that it lives in won't help you in the least.

be kind of embarassing, really, since the guts of my computer are presently spawled out the open side of my case after some quick and dirty fixes over the course of the winter........
 
Quick update.
My water circuit is Pump-->RAD--> GPU-->CPU-->RES
..for some reason, I can game for hours at 235, 240fsb (temps in the high 40s)… then &%$*BONK&*#& reboot (in HL2).
So I drop it down to 230 (temps in the low 40s)… same deal. Game for hours.. &%$*BONK&*#& reboot.


Are my old junky 12cm fans not up to the task, or is this just signs of needing a second heater core in my circuit?
 
Reboots are usually a sign of not enough vcore, do you have a nice PSU? If so, try giving the CPU a bit more volts.
 
cranked it up 1 more notch to 1.537V
I haven't had a chance to game with the new setting, but my temps were fine after running the Futuremark 2k5 bench. Friggin HL2 hiccups were driving me nuts.

I need to do something more aggressive. This 77 heatercore isn't doing enough for me. Maybe it's time for the ThermoChill 120.3 and larger pump.

oh my PSU is fine now that I've got an Antec Neo 480. =D

edit: is it possible that it's my soundcard hiccuping my system? I'm using onboard sound atm. I had this problem on my 8KNXP, and a SB Audigy card made all my problems go away.
 
earlier you listed your temp at the rad as being 27C. assuming that is the coolant temp, then the rad is not the weakpoint.

however, if that is the air temp:

have you considered just getting the new pump for them moment, and trying the two heatercores at once, before shelling out for the 120.3?

cleaning that heatercore regularly? i know that my rad clogs with dust pretty quickly.

what fans are you running, that you think might not be up to the challenge?

if your coolant temps really are that low:

you're using the DD TDX block right? it's a good block so..........

using AS5 paste? applied as AS reccomends?

what coolant additive are you using? assuming that you are not using water replacement, that is.

if your coolant temps are that low, and your CPU temp is that high, then a stronger pump MIGHT help, but it might also just be that processor puts out a truely ridiculous amount of heat.

HL has rather a few bugs in it, so i would not go with that for judging your system's hiccoughs or lack thereof........

how hot are your mosfets?

have you looked into upgraded chipset cooling?
 
A quick update on my Lockup issues

At first, I suspected that it was my onboard soundcard, since I’ve experienced onboard audio locking up games in the past.
Also in reviews of the DFI LP 875P-T the soundcard can be attributed for up to a 10% performance drop. Ouch!

I uninstalled the AC97’ soundcard software, disabled it in the BIOS then installed a Creative Audigy2 OEM card. Software CD then internet patch.

Fired up HL2. Audio is great! Less than a minute of game play, then *lock*-*hold*-*bang* after the 1-2 second lockup no audio! Hmmm restarting HL2 the audio works again… but similar lockup then audio crash happens again. I can continue to play w/o the audio. If you play long enough... and a violent enough of a sound event occurs like a grenade... the sound comes back!

…While in game I can sometimes get the audio to come back by switching from 2.1 channel to 5.1 channel or to medium quality then back. …either way it really seems like my audio card is causing this problem.

Then I noticed that the NPCs aren’t moving their lips when they’re supposed to be… but only when the audio isn’t working. It’s gotta be the install. Eg. When meeting an NPC normally, their lips move when speaking to you… the same scene when the audio is broken their mouths just hang open… it’s kinda weird. I’ll have to re-install Steam/HL2 to see if this clears everything up.

As for temps.
I threw up a second monitor with my vitals reading during gameplay.

The above temp I gave for ambient of 27C was air temp not my H20 temp. I don’t have a way to measure that yet.

During the heaviest loads in HL2 these were my highest recorded temps.
GPU 71C (stays at 70C pretty much the entire time, NV video settings temp monitor) – NV6800U using DangerDen NV-68 block ½” fittings – haven’t seated block in a loooong time, AS5. This is 10C higher than I ever recorded using rivatuner.

CPU 47C – P4 2.4E 1mb cache – Danger Den TDX copper ½” fittings, AS5, seated about 2 weeks ago.
NB Chipset is using stock DFI HSK with gunk removed and AS-5 w/ 80mm fan centered over HSK about 1” offset. …similar cooling for RAM.
Case Air Temp 25C
Cooled H20 Temp ??

As for my Heater core.. it was just cleaned out with a garden hose shortly before this post.
The fans are some no name UV reactive 12cm case fans, push only configuration.
They look like this guy: http://xoxide.com/oruvse12fan.html
----
I'll try to answer your q's
 
DFI Daishi said:
earlier you listed your temp at the rad as being 27C. assuming that is the coolant temp, then the rad is not the weakpoint.
Click to expand...
That was air temp. I have not yet built any temperature probes.

DFI Daishi said:
have you considered just getting the new pump for them moment, and trying the two heatercores at once, before shelling out for the
Click to expand...
I wan’t sure what model to get… I haven’t started really shopping for one. I have some aquarium friends… so they may help.
I will need to purchase a minimum of 4 new 12cm fans too.


If I get a retarded large pump, can I split the flow parallel? I'd really like to hit each component with ambient temp coolant.
DFI Daishi said:
cleaning that heatercore regularly? i know that my rad clogs with dust pretty quickly.
Click to expand...
cleaned and flushed with a garden hose. :D no more dust bunnies.
DFI Daishi said:
what coolant additive are you using? assuming that you are not using water replacement, that is.
Click to expand...
I’m using a 20% prestone mix with distilled water.


DFI Daishi said:
if your coolant temps are that low, and your CPU temp is that high, then a stronger pump MIGHT help, but it might also just be that processor puts out a truely ridiculous amount of heat.
Click to expand...
I don’t think I’m getting my water back to ambient temps.
if I do it'll most likely help my CPU temps.

DFI Daishi said:
how hot are your mosfets?
Click to expand...
I have no idea… I’m guessing I can monitor them with software? I didn't see any options for it in Motherboard Monitor5. Also the Mosfets on this board aren't all clumped into a special area like they were on my Abit boards. They're scattered about the board... so I am devising an array of 8cm fans to combat this problem.
I also may use a stacker cross flow solution.

DFI Daishi said:
have you looked into upgraded chipset cooling?
Click to expand...
If I can find the ThermalRight Copper NB HSK for a decent price (in stock) I’ll get it.

I can't believe how hot the NB on my IC7 was getting.

wrt DFI NB HSK.
as a temporary fix, I cleaned all of the goop from the HSK and replaced it with AS5 and active cooling.
 
not proposeing an advanced custom waterproof probe, just tag a compunurse probe onto one of the rad plenums with some thermal epoxy. i believe that the plenums are bare brass, are they not? it should give you a decently accurate temp reading. the only thing is that it won't respond instantly to coolant temp changes like that. not a problem since coolant usually changes temp gradually.

yeah, talk to your friends who are into aquariums for info on reliability, and be sure to look at the performance curve for the pump to see what it moves at several feet of head, rather than the maximum that it will move.

if you want to split up your loop, you generally need multiple pumps, and a loop that has more than one path.

kinda like the setup that i proposed for this guy: http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=887649

you CPU block uses flow impingement, meaning that no matter how storong a pump you use, if you just Y it, most of the coolant will flow through the lower resistance GPU loop, and very little will go to the CPU giving you a very hot little furnace.........i mean CPU.

i actually have to clean my rad every few weeks to keep optimal coolant temps.

zerex and distilled water might gain you a few degrees over the prestone and water.

some motherboards suppor mosfet temperature monitoring, some do not. in this case i'm simply asking if they get hot, finger-burningly hot, blisteringly hot, or OMG it's glowing hot. reach in there while your system is running and test with your hand, unless it is glowing.

thermal epoxying some BGA ramsinks on them is a pretty easy way to improve their temps somewhat. it's only usually usefull if you core voltage is sagging or jumping around, though.
 
qwq post.

My Audigy2 card was causing the lockups.

I even tried switching PCI ports... same results.
I guess locking the PCI/AGP bus in the BIOS doesn't work all the time.
 
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