Is DirectX 9.0C support really that important?

[ioman]

I have been reading numerous reviews ont he Nvidia 6800 and the ATI X800 video cards and noticed that ATI is not supporting Microsofts newest DirectX 9.0C, but that Nvidia is with their card. To me this is kind of ironic since ATI pushed DirectX with their last series of cards. Why the lack of support this time around?

I also read in PC Gamer their Nvidia 6800Ultra review and it actually beat ATI's latest card in their tests. I say if you have the PSU juice, why not go with Nvidia this time around? Its a tad bit faster and supports DirectX 9.0C

BTW if I got the DirectX version wrong, sorry. I am too lazy to look it up. I just know it had a "C" in the version number.

 

[Devnull]

I wouldn't go nvidia unless they improved their visual quality(or if they were a lot more affordable price/preformance wise than they have been). They have not have a major IQ jump since going from the Riva 128 to the Riva TNT.

 

[oqvist]

Devnull nVidia has increased their image quality they now compete neck to neck with ATI since ATI hasn´t improved their image quality anything whatsoever with their new line.

About dx 9.0c support no I really don´t think so. for the first dx 9.0c and SP 2 is delayed until september.

And from all the tests I have read the X800XT PE clearly outperforms the 6800 ULTRA at high res 4xaa and 8x aniso in dx 9 games whereas nVidia currently have a bot of an edge in OPEN GL games.

I think you could as well use a coin to decide which one to get. They look to be absolute equals really though I would really want to see how the NV40 performs in Far Cry with the next patch and of course Half Life 2.

 

[Bad_Boy]

They have not have a major IQ jump since going from the Riva 128 to the Riva TNT.

course Half Life 2.

dont forget d3

i think both cards will really pwn in both games. just nvidia will probally have the upper hand in D3, as will ati will have the upper hand in HL2. cant wait to see how both perform once some decent drivers come out. this summer is gonna be good

 

[Vagrant Zero]

I wouldn't say either is a clear cut winner this round. They trade blows on a variety of games/resz. Since I'm a HUGE Bioware/iD fan, Nvidia currently has more of my attention.

SM3 right is just a nice little added bonus, nothing more really [for now].

P.S. People who bitch about Nvidia's IQ need to be welcomed to 2004.

 

[oqvist]

dont forget d3

i think both cards will really pwn in both games. just nvidia will probally have the upper hand in D3, as will ati will have the upper hand in HL2. cant wait to see how both perform once some decent drivers come out. this summer is gonna be good

Well to be honest I don´t care much about D3. I think many of the techniques John Carmack uses is really obsolete by now. I don´t think I will be playing many of these close dark in door fps games really. Unless AVP 4 is using the Doom 3 engine

But to be honest I don´t think D3 engine will be nearly as popular as any of the Quake engines previously was.

I am pretty sure the 6800 will perform better in Doom 3 but I don´t think Doom 3 engine is that great in the first place

The games that matters for me is FS 2004 and Far Cry as it´s now will include Half Life 2 if it´s available before purchase too.

I also want to play at 1600x1200x32 with 4xaa and 8x aniso with current games so the video card that cope best with that will be my choice.

 

[Bad_Boy]

I think many of the techniques John Carmack uses is really obsolete by now......

stopped reading your post after that....

 

[Vagrant Zero]

stopped reading your post after that....

I actually wanted to continue reading what he'd written. Unfortunatley, my eyes had rolled too far back into my head, made it quite impossible.

You know what's telling for me? The fact that I can play Doom on my current machine without ANY bugs, whereas with Half Life I had to quit becuase of a glitch with the gonad/gonarch/spider-thing that basically makes it unkillable. To top it off thanks to the auto save feature, all my saves are of the exact instant after the bug has manifested. In other words, I'm screwed. Too bad to, I was enjoying myself [another fun yet hopelessly mindless FPS]. Also, I'd heard so many great things about HLs story yet I came away asking; "there was a story?" It was barely more present than Doom's. Evil aliens attack from other dimension. Goverment conspiracy. Kill everything that isn't in a lab coat. Did I pretty much get it?

 

[UltimaParadox]

Back to the topic at hand...

I would say in this generation of cards not likely, 9.0c will be a non-factor and we will have a new generation of cards up and running by that time.

Only thing I could see really pushing it is synthetic benchmarks, but that is definetly a non-issue.

 

[oqvist]

stopped reading your post after that....

lol stencil shadows is not the next step forward I can tell you that Nor is bump mapping to the extent the characters looks like they are made by LEGO

DOOM 3 has been hyped to death I have yet to see it´s ability to render huge viewing distances like Far Cry...

 

[oqvist]

I actually wanted to continue reading what he'd written. Unfortunatley, my eyes had rolled too far back into my head, made it quite impossible.

You know what's telling for me? The fact that I can play Doom on my current machine without ANY bugs, whereas with Half Life I had to quit becuase of a glitch with the gonad/gonarch/spider-thing that basically makes it unkillable. To top it off thanks to the auto save feature, all my saves are of the exact instant after the bug has manifested. In other words, I'm screwed. Too bad to, I was enjoying myself [another fun yet hopelessly mindless FPS]. Also, I'd heard so many great things about HLs story yet I came away asking; "there was a story?" It was barely more present than Doom's. Evil aliens attack from other dimension. Goverment conspiracy. Kill everything that isn't in a lab coat. Did I pretty much get it?

I am not talking story here I am talking game engine

And DOOM 3 gameplay from what I have read isn´t going to be DOOM gameplay. From what I have read it´s a lot slower and are going for something more Resident Evilish in first person or something...

I am no huge fan of Half Life either but the source engine looks more versatile as well as Cryteks of course.

But of course the DOOM 3 engine will run a lot of other games too but as said I am not thinking it will have as large support as previous games from ID.

 

[Munka]

I actually wanted to continue reading what he'd written. Unfortunatley, my eyes had rolled too far back into my head, made it quite impossible.

You know what's telling for me? The fact that I can play Doom on my current machine without ANY bugs, whereas with Half Life I had to quit becuase of a glitch with the gonad/gonarch/spider-thing that basically makes it unkillable. To top it off thanks to the auto save feature, all my saves are of the exact instant after the bug has manifested. In other words, I'm screwed. Too bad to, I was enjoying myself [another fun yet hopelessly mindless FPS]. Also, I'd heard so many great things about HLs story yet I came away asking; "there was a story?" It was barely more present than Doom's. Evil aliens attack from other dimension. Goverment conspiracy. Kill everything that isn't in a lab coat. Did I pretty much get it?

Afraid you didn't... perhaps my view is a little tainted because HL is the game that got me hooked into FPS games....I had played Quake 1 and 2 but did not find them taht special really. Half life still has the best story of any FPS game I've played...and while it had a few bugs, that game is coming up on 6 years of age now... considering it is still played, I find that amazing. Nothing quite so complex had really been tackled back then...and considering the outcome, HL was a phenominal game. If you PM me your email address I can prolly find you some saves taht are quite close to where you were.

 

[Julian]

I think it wasn't soo much that there was a great story to Half Life but more that it had one which was told very smoothly (which was revolutionary!). Compare Unreal to Half Life and you get the picture. Unreal was much more advanced but didn't have a storyline which was told seamlessly.

Doom III was slower in the bits which have been shown at 2003 E3 but I think there will be intense bits...and having a large draw distance ruins the sense of clostaphobia

 

[oqvist]

There is a reason why there aren´t any out doors in Doom 3

Don´t get me wrong the Doom 3 engine is great for DOOM 3 but to be honest Quake 3 aren´t really capable of great outdoors either. COD is the best try at it really but then it don´t have much in common with the Quake 3 engine

 

[Unit-0]

The most important game that will decide what video card I would buy is EverQuest 2. That game is definitely going to last me the next decade with its expansion packs, considering Everquest 1 kept me for 5 years (can you say that for any one FPS game?). Sony Online Entertainment is obviously supporting nVidia so you nVidia fans should keep a close eye on what that company can really do with a 6800 Ultra. I kind of expect video card-specific optimizations favoring nVidia cards similar to the situation we have with Guild Wars (either soft glow OR anti-aliasing, not both using an ATi).


Edit: If this "summer" is going to be so great... why aren't good games coming out? The only games worth mentioning is Far Cry and the soon-to-be-released Ground Control 2. Don't even start on Doom 3 or Half Life 2, those two overrated games have been delayed too long for me to care anymore. Frankly, their release dates mean nothing anymore.

 

[oozish]

This thread is getting very gay. The comments about Carmack show how stupid some people are regarding his genuis...in years from now, people will look back and Carmack may very well be viewed as a true genuis in his field, if he isn't already. I'm not ass kissing, I think I'm speaking the truth. Anwyay, your comments are retarded anyway, the DOOM3 engine brings more to the table than just stencil shadows, though there's nothing wrong with their implementation in that game and it will in fact revolutionize real world lighting in games. It also brings many other things you can't possibly know about (nor I) nor judge at this time, such as their work with 5.1 surround, the story line implementation, real world deformation (the extent to which we don't know), AI, and more. Just like the cards we're talking about, yet to a greater extent, it's too early to tell. so don't grab a negative attitude because claustraphobic FPS aren't your thing, you'd probably wet your pants anyway and then start to question your manhood.

 

[oqvist]

Who is not saying Carmack is a genius??

But there is other genius at work too some have already shown their work (Crytek anyone?) and from what I have seen of the DOOM 3 engine is that it tries to do one thing and that exceptionally good.

Again I am talking game engine not game itself but when people talk about DOOM 3 it usually aren´t about it´s revolutionary gameplay And John Carmack is he good at making games or just extraordinary good at making game engines?

Doom 3 is the first title in years where ID really seem to have put some real effort in. I mean what have they released since DOOM 2?

Each to their own but it´s not at all retarded to think that the DOOM 3 engine will have a hard time complete with the Far Cry or Half Life 2 engine in games that require out door environments.

 

[oozish]

Well to be honest I don´t care much about D3. I think many of the techniques John Carmack uses is really obsolete by now. I don´t think I will be playing many of these close dark in door fps games really. Unless AVP 4 is using the Doom 3 engine

I was responding more to that sentence than anything. It's itneresting as well that you don't want to play close, dark in door games but you play AVP? Guess the doom environment isn't your favorite? Anyway, no problem mate, I just get defensive around Carmack...I guess I idolize him in a way.

Your right, it's a game engine that he does so well. I happen to think that the team he built around himself will shock people this time around. I mean, if it doesn't, i guess thats it for id and FPS content writing ability then...since this really is their time to shine if they have it in them.

Also, i might mention the premier online shooter Quake 3, that did have a bit of an impact on the scene you know.

 

[oqvist]

I was responding more to that sentence than anything. It's itneresting as well that you don't want to play close, dark in door games but you play AVP? Guess the doom environment isn't your favorite? Anyway, no problem mate, I just get defensive around Carmack...I guess I idolize him in a way.

Your right, it's a game engine that he does so well. I happen to think that the team he built around himself will shock people this time around. I mean, if it doesn't, i guess thats it for id and FPS content writing ability then...since this really is their time to shine if they have it in them.

Also, i might mention the premier online shooter Quake 3, that did have a bit of an impact on the scene you know.

The point is that is probably the only (except doom 3 itself) that type of game I want to play

Like Serious SAM is the only DOOM type of game I will probably play and that graphics engine btw is shaping out great

I have never in my life played Quake 3 though I know all about it´s impact on the online community only beaten by CS

 

[Brent_Justice]

I have been reading numerous reviews ont he Nvidia 6800 and the ATI X800 video cards and noticed that ATI is not supporting Microsofts newest DirectX 9.0C, but that Nvidia is with their card. To me this is kind of ironic since ATI pushed DirectX with their last series of cards. Why the lack of support this time around?

I also read in PC Gamer their Nvidia 6800Ultra review and it actually beat ATI's latest card in their tests. I say if you have the PSU juice, why not go with Nvidia this time around? Its a tad bit faster and supports DirectX 9.0C

BTW if I got the DirectX version wrong, sorry. I am too lazy to look it up. I just know it had a "C" in the version number.

ATI supports DirectX 9.0c, just as it has supported DirectX 9.0 from the start with the launch of the 9700Pro.

DirectX 9 has within it SM 2.0 and SM 3.0 specs from the start.

DirectX 9.0c will simply expose SM 3.0 caps on the GeForce 6 series, and has a few bug fixes in it as well.

 

[Spleeze]

Doom 3 is the first title in years where ID really seem to have put some real effort in. I mean what have they released since DOOM 2?

Oh, just the whole Quake series. But hey, no one played them anyhow right? And it's not like their engines were used to power a huge amount of games, even recently.

 

[Dan_D]

I wouldn't say either is a clear cut winner this round. They trade blows on a variety of games/resz. Since I'm a HUGE Bioware/iD fan, Nvidia currently has more of my attention.

SM3 right is just a nice little added bonus, nothing more really [for now].

P.S. People who bitch about Nvidia's IQ need to be welcomed to 2004.

Nvidia has IQ quality issues in Farcry even when it does work right. The HardOCP review shows that. But generally speaking they are equal.

 

[oqvist]

Oh, just the whole Quake series. But hey, no one played them anyhow right? And it's not like their engines were used to power a huge amount of games, even recently.

Was any of the Quake games good single player games? Did anyone become even remotely as popular as DOOM single player wise

 

[Brent_Justice]

Was any of the Quake games good single player games? Did anyone become even remotely as popular as DOOM single player wise

Quake2's single player sure was hella fun

not to mention a pounding soundtrack

 

[oqvist]

Quake2's single player sure was hella fun

not to mention a pounding soundtrack

Well I played it and to be honest I would rather replay duke Nukem 3D again... It was safed by the graphics nothing else IMHO.

 

[Brent_Justice]

Well I played it and to be honest I would rather replay duke Nukem 3D again... It was safed by the graphics nothing else IMHO.

personal opinion

some people liked quake 1/2 better, some liked doom better

games are all a personal choice anyways, what one person likes another may not etc...

 

[MrHappyGoLucky]

What you have not noticed, Brent, is these guys opinions are the only correct ones; in their own mind of course

 

[(cf)Eclipse]

ATI supports DirectX 9.0c, just as it has supported DirectX 9.0 from the start with the launch of the 9700Pro.

DirectX 9 has within it SM 2.0 and SM 3.0 specs from the start.

DirectX 9.0c will simply expose SM 3.0 caps on the GeForce 6 series, and has a few bug fixes in it as well.

but how can ATI support dx9.0c if they don't support SM3.0, which iirc, is part of the 9.0c spec?

 

[Brent_Justice]

but how can ATI support dx9.0c if they don't support SM3.0, which iirc, is part of the 9.0c spec?

SM 3.0 is part of the DX 9 spec, not specifically DX 9.0c

DX9.0c is simply exposing the SM 3.0 caps on the GF6 series

SM 3.0 has been in DX9 since DX9 was released in December of 2002

 

[Dan_D]

Who is not saying Carmack is a genius??

But there is other genius at work too some have already shown their work (Crytek anyone?) and from what I have seen of the DOOM 3 engine is that it tries to do one thing and that exceptionally good.

Again I am talking game engine not game itself but when people talk about DOOM 3 it usually aren´t about it´s revolutionary gameplay And John Carmack is he good at making games or just extraordinary good at making game engines?

Doom 3 is the first title in years where ID really seem to have put some real effort in. I mean what have they released since DOOM 2?

Each to their own but it´s not at all retarded to think that the DOOM 3 engine will have a hard time complete with the Far Cry or Half Life 2 engine in games that require out door environments.

Since Doom? Lemme see.

Quake I (Really was the first full true 3D polygon FPS) Decent was the first full 3D game but not a FPS shooter exactly.
Quake III Arena
Return to Castle Wolfenstien

All of those games were pretty good. Quake I having the most impact on the gaming community and the industry. It was so far ahead of Duke Nukem and Doom I/II and everything else out there.

Quake III Arena brought us the first taste of online play as it is today. The game itself again redefined the graphics the industry had to match in order to be successfull.

Return to Castle Wolfenstien was a good game although not groundbreaking or terribly original. It proved to me that ID new how to make things other than Quake III addons.

But the game engines are the bread and butter. Half Life 1 was a modified Quake engine. Q1 mind you.

Theres the Entire Jedi-Knight series (Except for the first game which was Doom Engine), Heavy Metal Fak2, the Star Trek Elite Forces games and addons and more I can't think of right now. I'd say ID typically drives the genre of FPS shooters in some form or fashion most of the time.

And for those of you who never saw the Doom III Alpha in person, (Knew someone who had it.) you need to know that the screenshots never do it justice. The game is groundbreaking in more ways than one.

 

[oqvist]

What you have not noticed, Brent, is these guys opinions are the only correct ones; in their own mind of course

IMHO= It´s my honest opinion.

Where did I say IYHO = it´s your honest opinion.

You won´t get any cookies for agreeing with master chief hehe

But I am getting pretty lost in here. I talk game engine then people start to talk about the game themself then they start to talk about game engine again???

Yes John Carmack has always developed great game engine though they didn´t handle colours that well. Valve did the very right thing implementing 16-bit colour to the Quake engine. Made all the difference.

I am just saying that the DOOM 3 engine will have a lot harder to compete producing as great out doors as Cryteks and other game engines are capable of. From what I have seen John Carmack has tried to optimize it´s game engine solely for dark in doors areas with a lot of shadows going on. It don´t automatically make it suitable for Ghost Recon or Far Cry type of action.

 

[Bad_Boy]

i doubt we will see cryteks engine in more than 2 games ever again. where as ALL of id's engines have been used many times over and are still used today.(yes a engine that was made more than 5 years ago) when it comes to engines, id is king. to say john carmack isnt going to do anything new or everything in the game will be obsolete this time around is just being ignorant. anyways... im interested on seeing doom3's physics w/ Per-Poly collision detection

 

[Shane]

well simple fact is I have downloaded the doom3 alpha and ran it at 1280x960 with 2xaa/af and ran smooth. so considering this is alpha and not even optimized hardly doom3 and halflife 2 will play fine for users with the 9700-9800's. myself im not going ot upgrade my card til the next generation...i just dont see the point to do so. and another thing for those of you that have not seen doom3alpha its fukn amazeing

 

[oqvist]

i doubt we will see cryteks engine in more than 2 games ever again. where as ALL of id's engines have been used many times over and are still used today.(yes a engine that was made more than 5 years ago) when it comes to engines, id is king. to say john carmack isnt going to do anything new or everything in the game will be obsolete this time around is just being ignorant. anyways... im interested on seeing doom3's physics w/ Per-Poly collision detection

It was king you mean? The quake 3 engine though of course heavily modified has the last year really showned it´s age. You can´t go by history game developers will go what suite them best really with what they want to do with a game.

I think that when Doom 3 arrives it will be more like ID was the king now there is several others riding just along it

I think we will see many many games using Far Crys game engine. If they can afford it that is I think the license fee is like 1 million dollars or something

The problem is Half Life 2 and Doom 3 game engine has been hyped to death. Crytek hasn´t.

 

[Bad_Boy]

Crytek hasn´t.

 

[oqvist]

Don´t tell me there has been nearly as much talk about Far Cry and it´s game engine as with HL 2 and source engine and DOOM 3 and it´s DOOM 3 engine

Where has you been the last year or so?

 

[Bad_Boy]

i guess you were under a rock around early 2004 before far cry's release

 

[oqvist]

i guess you were under a rock around early 2004 before far cry's release

No I definiatly wasn´t where where you I can´t remember you here at hardforums?

 

[Bad_Boy]

lol

im just saying far cry has been hyped to death. not saying its been hyped as much as hl2 and d3. just because those are the most anticipated games that we have had in a while. i think they would clearly go for the biggest sequals of all time. so far cry cant really match up to that magnitude of hype. but in early 2004, everybody seemed to be on crytek's nuts. ....then it got released.

 

[Vagrant Zero]

Nvidia has IQ quality issues in Farcry even when it does work right. The HardOCP review shows that. But generally speaking they are equal.

Agreed. ATI has issues with X, Y, and Z. One game doesn't = crappy IQ in general. Hell, someone put up a list of games that had issues with his 9700, I think we can all agree that in general Nvidia has better compatability, especially with older games.

I am just saying that the DOOM 3 engine will have a lot harder to compete producing as great out doors as Cryteks and other game engines are capable of. From what I have seen John Carmack has tried to optimize it´s game engine solely for dark in doors areas with a lot of shadows going on. It don´t automatically make it suitable for Ghost Recon or Far Cry type of action.

I don't see why Carmack needs to spoon feed the industry. If they want something D3 wasn't originally designed for they can get off their rears and code it. Quake 3 looks and plays a hell of alot differently than Call of Duty, yet they're the same engine. A great engine in the hands of a talented developer can make all the difference in the world. Source is already showing it's age, Vampire doesn't look terribely impressive in the graphical department [though I bet it'll still be a kickass game, can't wait]. I just wish they had used WoD 2.0 instead of the original WoD.