Do you own one? I notice zero "ms lag on the images, blur and all that crap" as you so eloquently put it. Mine cost my $300.. hardly "hella expensive".
My opinion says you don't know what you are talking about.
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IPS vs TN
- Thread starter jonneymendoza
- Start date
Do you own one? I notice zero "ms lag on the images, blur and all that crap" as you so eloquently put it. Mine cost my $300.. hardly "hella expensive".
My opinion says you don't know what you are talking about.
SJetski71
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Ya, trash statement. Heck i'm using an IPS-A television which does nothing of the sort as well. Maybe certain models do that but you can't paint IPS with such a broad brush, if anything VA panels suffer more from it.Do you own one? I notice zero "ms lag on the images, blur and all that crap" as you so eloquently put it. Mine cost my $300.. hardly "hella expensive".
My opinion says you don't know what you are talking about.
And that's coming from a recovered CRT fan, who has also owned a bunch of LCD's as well, TN, VA and IPS. While i'm no expert i have enough knowledge to know what i'm seeing.
common man
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i have a 22" e-ips 2209wa s and my bro has a 24" tn 2409w. colors on my screen are very slightly more saturated. no big difference. the 2409w has a decent range of horizontal viewing angles. if you stand up then the vertical shift of brightness occurs but not when i'm seated which is how i usually am.
i've seen some people post screenshots of the supposed shifting and for the life of me couldn't see any problem. sometimes i wonder if my monitor has some gross color distortion that i am not seeing. i wanted to calibrate my 2209wa but then you either have to get some software >$50 or go through lots of steps only an enthusiast would tolerate. i suppose the people who spend $1000 for monitors have a right to demand 100% perfection but sometimes i wonder if it is reasonable to rma a monitor 4-5 times as people have reported doing.
i'm happy with the 2209wa because it looks nicer and has ergonomic features. the text is easier to read on the tn monitor. i am confused as to how a tn panel has a higher displaymate score than the 2408wfp which uses s-pva according to cnet. seems like the new tn's are getting good with color reproduction.
i've seen some people post screenshots of the supposed shifting and for the life of me couldn't see any problem. sometimes i wonder if my monitor has some gross color distortion that i am not seeing. i wanted to calibrate my 2209wa but then you either have to get some software >$50 or go through lots of steps only an enthusiast would tolerate. i suppose the people who spend $1000 for monitors have a right to demand 100% perfection but sometimes i wonder if it is reasonable to rma a monitor 4-5 times as people have reported doing.
i'm happy with the 2209wa because it looks nicer and has ergonomic features. the text is easier to read on the tn monitor. i am confused as to how a tn panel has a higher displaymate score than the 2408wfp which uses s-pva according to cnet. seems like the new tn's are getting good with color reproduction.
You have used so small TNs, so that panel types worst fault vertical gamma shift isnt an issue. But on 22" I just couldnt help but keep noticing the way darker top part of the screen. In games, when I walked in dark ruins the ceiling seems to vanish to blackness as it gets closer to top side of the screen, its annoying to look at. Bigger you go with TNs, worse this problem gets. IPS are free of that.
Only reason why I might get TN monitor is if I want to buy 120Hz monitor, but only if it seems like strong possibility there will never be *VA or IPS 120Hz monitors. Future will tell.
This post is soooo wrong...
Godmachine
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Why do so many people who do not even own a ips panel suddenly claim its "blur and all that crap" , seriously I bet a nice chunk of change that people like this wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a 2ms TN panel and a 5ms IPS panel in a blind test.
Old ips panels did have more blur than old tn panels , thats the past , its the present now and ips panels are just fine for gaming (unless you find one with a ton of input latency which is another issue entirely) and are very affordable.
Old ips panels did have more blur than old tn panels , thats the past , its the present now and ips panels are just fine for gaming (unless you find one with a ton of input latency which is another issue entirely) and are very affordable.
This would be semi-valid 7-ish years ago. Not so much now.
jonneymendoza
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my monitor is a ips one.
what would be the best and mosyt affordable upgrade from my dell 2005fpw? im looking for a 24inch one
Kinda true when it comes to response time, since older IPS technologies had values like:
- 20 ms to 120 ms, wile most recent economic IPS (e-IPS) or as loww as 15 ms - 25 ms which is even close to many monitors with TN panels. And yet in their technical specification only show the Grey to Grey values (2 ms G2G), yet that monitor could go as high as 20 ms when it comes to b/w.
The thing is, back in the old days, the monitors with IPS panels where intended for graphics, wile now they released models intended for general usage.
I own a LG w2220P with e-IPS, which kinda sux when it comes to viewing angles, but guess I can't expect more for his price. It does show some imput lag compared to a CRT, but most gamers that went with LCD got used to it (since even TN panels can show impute lag, which is not the same with response time). If it's not sever input lag, you can get used to it just fine, same as some as you got used to wide resolutions.
Maybe professional gamers, like some CS players can't get used to it, but for them even wide screen is a huge problem... Most still play CS at 640 x 480/800 x 600 - scale any LCD to that resolution from his native resolution and looks like crap.
========
Ok, so where is the real advantage for an e-IPS compared to a monitor with TN panel? The advantage can be seen in details, not a huge difference but still visible with naked eye. It's kinda stupid to buy a High-End VGA expecting to play games with high or very high graphic settings, which do just that (ad more detailed), yet you own a TN panel.
Then again, I didn't had the chance to compare it with some of the new TN's with LED, which do seem to have some potential. Don't get me round IPS technology is far from perfect, besides viewing angles you have the black levels problem (yet on a 10 bit H-IPS with a-tw polarizer is better then the older ones) so definitely don't recommend one to a cinephile that likes to watch movies in the dark... especially horror movies that have lot of night scenes... Most "demonstration movies" are tricky showing a colorful content that looks decent even on an old TN screen and looks excellent on a IPS (color reproduction it's his strong point), but what they're not showing you is the "black levels" which on IPS panels glow wile on TN panels loose detail, so far S-PVA panels seem to be the best choice, when it comes to this detail.
Maybe I would be happier with a LED TN, can't say for sure since I never seen one live, but any other TN panel is inferior to this, of that I'm certain.
addictedto60fps
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Excellent point. I noticed this big time on my BenQ TN display while playing Torchlight, and boy, was it annoying! I've never used an IPS display before and look forward to buying one soon.
Godmachine
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I own the Dell U2410 and would recommend it although there have been people getting panels with tinting issues however it seems pretty fixed now.
Another good one : HP ZR24w , seems everyone loves this monitor , its cheaper than the Dell yet has the same type of panel so its looking pretty good.
Biggest advantage I see for TN is that it is cheap and looks decent. While it does have major issues with colour shift at angles (which are a bigger problem the bigger this display) it still looks fine, especially for text, and you can get one for nice and cheap. They make fine office monitors. Also TNs are your only option if you want a 120Hz monitor.
However, if you can spend some money, I'm an IPS fan over all. They do offer a noticeably better image, especially on large screens. They work fine for gaming too, I game all the time on mine. You have to remember that some people get extremely finicky in evaluating details of displays. They are looking for problems, and not evaluating the whole experience.
Really in my opinion the only major downside to IPS is the cost. You will pay more for it than TN. Other than that, it is a win all around.
As for the VAs, I'd say give those a miss. I had one and it was ok, but too many problems over all. One is that they shift colors at horizontal angles a fair bit, which of course you get with a widescreen. The screen looked noticeably better at a distance than up close, which wasn't ideal for a monitor. Also while it had a good contrast ratio, meaning dark blacks, it wasn't so useful because it suffered from pretty bad lag/ghosting in the dark ranges. In a bright game everything looked great like any other display, but when you played a dark game, like FEAR, you started seeing some annoying artifacts.
So largely I say choose on cost. If you can afford IPS, do so. It is worth it. If not, TN is perfectly fine. It has issues, but they aren't the kind of thing that is a show stopper.
However, if you can spend some money, I'm an IPS fan over all. They do offer a noticeably better image, especially on large screens. They work fine for gaming too, I game all the time on mine. You have to remember that some people get extremely finicky in evaluating details of displays. They are looking for problems, and not evaluating the whole experience.
Really in my opinion the only major downside to IPS is the cost. You will pay more for it than TN. Other than that, it is a win all around.
As for the VAs, I'd say give those a miss. I had one and it was ok, but too many problems over all. One is that they shift colors at horizontal angles a fair bit, which of course you get with a widescreen. The screen looked noticeably better at a distance than up close, which wasn't ideal for a monitor. Also while it had a good contrast ratio, meaning dark blacks, it wasn't so useful because it suffered from pretty bad lag/ghosting in the dark ranges. In a bright game everything looked great like any other display, but when you played a dark game, like FEAR, you started seeing some annoying artifacts.
So largely I say choose on cost. If you can afford IPS, do so. It is worth it. If not, TN is perfectly fine. It has issues, but they aren't the kind of thing that is a show stopper.
e-IPS's as in economic-IPS's are kinda cheap, as in decent price for what they offer, got mine for the equivalent of 220€. Compared to last year, when a monitor with a decent panel was 2x this price and only TN's could be found in this range, things are looking good. TN's also got cheaper thanks to this so based on your needs you have a wider range from which to chose... I do admit that for office, it's not worth paying the extra since a TN is more then enough for internet browsing and all that virtual paper work... and even gamers that don't care about high details (low end - mainstream VGA's, as in playable or decent "performance") could be satisfied with a TN monitor.
It's same as with any other entertaining experience, like Audio for example... where most are satisfied with MP3 at 128 kbs, but there are some that spend more for their equipment and aim for more than general needs.
Yup, spot on. This is why TN displays are tolerable for things like laptops and handheld devices, it because the displays are so little. They also have the advantage of consuming less power than an IPS display, very important for something that runs off a battery.
Throw a TN in something large and you're definitely going to notice it. Things like the 27" TN LCDs you see now are beyond pushing it. It is literally impossible not to see luminance and chrominance shift when sitting perfectly still because the display is so physically tall. It is hard enough with a 22" TN, but with something bigger there is no way to avoid vertical gamma shift even with your head locked into place.
Go to something massive like an Eyefinity setup and the benefits of IPS get exponentially larger. I'm just glad that IPS displays have gotten to a much more affordable range than they were just two years ago. The more people with IPS panels, the better.
jonneymendoza
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The U2410 seems to have lots of issues on it. Is it bene fixed yet? How reliable is the HP one?
Well, after your post I did check that with my friend's Samsung T240 (24" TN) and this really is an issue with TN panels. And yes, some games and movies (not to mention photos) may suffer from that. I did check Torchlight (darker dungeon game) and it clearly looks better on my IPS LCD than on bigger TN panel.
Also after tuning my LCD (some colour settings, turning on overdrive) I have to admit I like my IPS monitor (unlike my first impression with it). Right now they only flaw (of IPS) I can think of is the fact you can get more screen real estate for the same price with a TN panel. But apparently quantity doesn't come along with quality in monitor world.
Ok, LED seems to be just marketing when it comes to image enhancement. It does save more energy and also evens the black levels, but still, can't turn a TN in VA/IPS...
First hand experience going from many different TN panels (6 year old CTX 17", Acer 22", I-Inc 25/24.6", various laptops) to my current set up of 3x Dell 2209wa e-IPS monitors.
There are absolutely no problems at all with IPS panels. If the 2209wa, the cheapest IPS you can get, works this well, I imagine the U2410 could only be better. I have not experienced any problems with motion blur or input lag that people claim to be downfalls of IPS monitors. I haven't gamed on any of those new 120hz monitors so perhaps I am just "missing" how much better it could be. At the moment, I can't see ANY room for improvement other than size/resolution.
As proof of how much FPS I play, here are my BC2 stats
. I'm by far no means good. However, considering my stats and played time, I would say I'm above average and decently qualified to give my opinion on how well an IPS monitor performs with games Every game I've tried (Dirt 2, AVP, Crysis, etc) all look superb with no input lag, ghosting, blur, etc.
There are absolutely no problems at all with IPS panels. If the 2209wa, the cheapest IPS you can get, works this well, I imagine the U2410 could only be better. I have not experienced any problems with motion blur or input lag that people claim to be downfalls of IPS monitors. I haven't gamed on any of those new 120hz monitors so perhaps I am just "missing" how much better it could be. At the moment, I can't see ANY room for improvement other than size/resolution.
As proof of how much FPS I play, here are my BC2 stats
. I'm by far no means good. However, considering my stats and played time, I would say I'm above average and decently qualified to give my opinion on how well an IPS monitor performs with games Every game I've tried (Dirt 2, AVP, Crysis, etc) all look superb with no input lag, ghosting, blur, etc.Whoisthisreally
[H]ard|Gawd
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A-TW doesn't improve black levels.
Here is a comment I have prepared earlier on the 2209WA:
Monitors with black levels better than current IPS panels are fairly uncommon, especially if you want significant improvement. in this case your only real option is the EV2333W which unfortunately has very poor gray-to-gray ghosting.
Here is a comment I have prepared earlier on the 2209WA:
Monitors with black levels better than current IPS panels are fairly uncommon, especially if you want significant improvement. in this case your only real option is the EV2333W which unfortunately has very poor gray-to-gray ghosting.
WildMonkey
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LED backlight does nothing to improve picture quality. The advantages are that you can make a slimmer frame, less power consumption, and calibrations last longer.
lmao awesome quote this put more over the fence on ditching my old 24 Benq for the HP ips.
jonneymendoza
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IPS ftw it seems but why are a lot of people having tinting issues?
One of the main advantages of LEDs is power usage. This doesn't mean much for desktop LCDs, but in the future, because of the lower power draw of LED backlit LCDs, we might start seeing IPS panels on laptops soon. The iPad has an LED backlit IPS panel, and although it is small, the device still manages 10+ hours of battery life, which is a good sign.
Plus a longer life from what it says there, but LED LCD's are not marketed just for lower power usage, but also increased image quality on a TN and other similar BS. So far iPad's have that combination LED + IPS... as for LCD's monitors we have LP2480zx with sRGB LED and 30 bit panels which are top class when it comes to color and detail reproduction, but the price is far from my reach (1860$ - was 4000$ when released...), yet might still be cheaper and better then a Eizo monitor at similar price.
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response time isn't as simple as 2MS or 8MS,
If you look at actual pixel response, and at settings most people would use, the picture changes.
I'd have to find the article, but there was a great one showing, the over all response curve of SIPS panels to be better then TN panels.
here, this is old, but it gives you a good idea about SIPS and TN panels.
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/monitors/display/lcd-guide_23.html
If you look at actual pixel response, and at settings most people would use, the picture changes.
I'd have to find the article, but there was a great one showing, the over all response curve of SIPS panels to be better then TN panels.
here, this is old, but it gives you a good idea about SIPS and TN panels.
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/monitors/display/lcd-guide_23.html
jonneymendoza
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Why do you think many hdtv's use ips? because ips offers better IQ and better view angles
Well, better to say.. why do you think that NO HDTV's use TN? Like, none what-so-ever.
Most HDTVS are S-PVA which shine in that usage. Their static contrast blows away IPS and it really shows if you have one that's well calibrated and your viewing environment is right. And view angles are great too, my LNT5271f has noticeably better off angle performance then my HP S-IPS or my late Lenovo with IPS Flexview.
Actually the only problem with S-PVA is input lag, otherwise I'd prefer them 100% for gaming.
krameriffic
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Do you own one? I notice zero "ms lag on the images, blur and all that crap" as you so eloquently put it. Mine cost my $300.. hardly "hella expensive".
My opinion says you don't know what you are talking about.
Almost everyone on the internet says that run-of-the-mill 60 Hz LCDs are just fine with respect to ghosting, blurring and input lag. Guess what? Every single one of them is, as far as I'm concerned, about as qualified to comment on it as Ray Charles would be.
My shit crashed the other day. It happens. I get back into the Windows login screen, move my mouse 2 inches and I had already noticed that my drivers had anomalously reverted my monitor into 60 Hz mode from the 120 Hz I have it set at. It took me less than a second moving a mouse on a desktop and not even looking for it to notice that my monitor what running at the wrong refresh rate.
Just imagine what I must think of gaming on such a monitor.
SJetski71
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Many PVA televisions suffer from either black crush, motion smearing, or both. Not all of them of course, but plenty enough that it's something to watch out for, (even the top tier brands). IPS panel televisions on the average have less overall input lag as well.
There are plenty of TN panel televisions but not in the 32" sizes or higher (yet). If a TV is smaller than 32" then there's a decent chance it'll be a TN (depending on MFR of course).
This is why i always recommend prospective TV buyers to carefully research their choices, especially at the AVS forums, because there's just too great of a chance they'll be disappointed if they don't.
Doesn't everyone just love how complicated this can all get?
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PVA's and black crush.... another misconception and problem. PVA's do not crush blacks. Bad calibration intended to give pop at the store front does. My LCD TV can show the difference between R,G,B 0,0,0 and R,G,B 1,1,1 just fine. I just made sure to calibrate it right. For video, of course, I've got it calibrated to show R,B,G 0,0,0 through 15,15,15 as perfect black and then RGB 16,16,16 as on step lighter. Looks great.
Again, PVA does not crush blacks, bad calibration does.
Thanks for the info on TN LCD TV's. I had no idea. OK, so they are all smaller then 32" and I would even say most are still NOT TN (which is not 'plenty')
TN is great and fine if you can ALWAYS sit >10 feet back from 52" and sit with it PERFECTLY at eye level, with the screen perfectly perpendicular to your viewing position. Oh, and no guests.
If you can satisfy that, then the TN can get you better contrast and response then an IPS. TN's colors can be plenty good with advanced temporal dithering techniques.
I will agree on S-PVA and input lag. That's why I didn't mention gaming.
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PVA's and black crush.... another misconception and problem. PVA's do not crush blacks. Bad calibration intended to give pop at the store front does. My LCD TV can show the difference between R,G,B 0,0,0 and R,G,B 1,1,1 just fine. I just made sure to calibrate it right. For video, of course, I've got it calibrated to show R,B,G 0,0,0 through 15,15,15 as perfect black and then RGB 16,16,16 as on step lighter. Looks great.
Again, PVA does not crush blacks, bad calibration does.
Thanks for the info on TN LCD TV's. I had no idea. OK, so they are all smaller then 32" and I would even say most are still NOT TN (which is not 'plenty')
TN is great and fine if you can ALWAYS sit >10 feet back from 52" and sit with it PERFECTLY at eye level, with the screen perfectly perpendicular to your viewing position. Oh, and no guests.
If you can satisfy that, then the TN can get you better contrast and response then an IPS. TN's colors can be plenty good with advanced temporal dithering techniques.
I will agree on S-PVA and input lag. That's why I didn't mention gaming.
plasma ftw?
anyway PVA panels are used more often in TVs, because Samsung panels are used more widely in TVs, and PVA I believe is still cheaper, 99% of the people who watch TV's probably wouldn't know the difference anyway, so why waste $$ on making something that 1% of your market might notice/pay extra for. LG makes the SIPS panels, 42/47" tvs I believe are ALL SIPS.
SJetski71
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Gotcha, but ya, just when you think you have some of it figured out, it gets even more complicatedPVA's and black crush.... another misconception and problem. PVA's do not crush blacks. Bad calibration intended to give pop at the store front does. My LCD TV can show the difference between R,G,B 0,0,0 and R,G,B 1,1,1 just fine. I just made sure to calibrate it right. For video, of course, I've got it calibrated to show R,B,G 0,0,0 through 15,15,15 as perfect black and then RGB 16,16,16 as on step lighter. Looks great.
Again, PVA does not crush blacks, bad calibration does.
Thanks for the info on TN LCD TV's. I had no idea. OK, so they are all smaller then 32" and I would even say most are still NOT TN (which is not 'plenty')
TN is great and fine if you can ALWAYS sit >10 feet back from 52" and sit with it PERFECTLY at eye level, with the screen perfectly perpendicular to your viewing position. Oh, and no guests.
If you can satisfy that, then the TN can get you better contrast and response then an IPS. TN's colors can be plenty good with advanced temporal dithering techniques.
I will agree on S-PVA and input lag. That's why I didn't mention gaming.
. I wasn't trying to throw blanket statements around btw, even with motion smearing, these are just possibilities one has to look out for. Didn't know that black crush could be calibrated away so easily, but what do i know ? As for TV's smaller than 32", don't take my word for it, keep an eye on small TV specs, you'll find that "plenty" of them have poor viewing angles listed, which is the first hint of the panel that's being used. I'm including the mid and lower tier manufacturers btw. So for now, 32" and bigger would virtually guarantee you're NOT getting a TN panel, who knows how long that will last though.
Unfortunately not, LG uses almost every panel under the sun, including their larger 42" and either 46" or 47" size. The panels they have used recently are AUO (VA), Chi-Mei (VA), Sharp (ASV - VA variant) and their own S-IPS panels of course. Source = recent threads in the AVS forums.
Panasonic/Alpha makes IPS panels as well ... but not as many TV manufacturers buy and incorporate their IPS-A panels for whatever reason, i'm guessing cost/procurement has a lot to do with it.
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Gotcha, but ya, just when you think you have some of it figured out, it gets even more complicated
As for TV's smaller than 32", don't take my word for it, keep an eye on small TV specs, you'll find that "plenty" of them have poor viewing angles listed, which is the first hint of the panel that's being used. I'm including the mid and lower tier manufacturers btw. So for now, 32" and bigger would virtually guarantee you're NOT getting a TN panel, who knows how long that will last though.
Unfortunately not, LG uses almost every panel under the sun, including their larger 42" and either 46" or 47" size. The panels they have used recently are AUO (VA), Chi-Mei (VA), Sharp (ASV - VA variant) and their own S-IPS panels of course. Source = recent threads in the AVS forums.
Panasonic/Alpha makes IPS panels as well ... but not as many TV manufacturers buy and incorporate their IPS-A panels for whatever reason, i'm guessing cost/procurement has a lot to do with it.
you sure? I was pretty sure LG manufactured the 42 and 47" panels
jonneymendoza
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Are PVA inferior to IPS? i think most if not all panasonic are IPS panels anyway. what does plasma use? IPS as well?
jonneymendoza
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lol my bad. ok so is plasma better than ips? everyone seems to be bitching on how you suffer from burned marks.
i did read in another thread that plasma's are better for gaming and watching movies and plus they are cheaper because they use old tech and cheaper to produce while lcd's are hyped up to teh extreme?
Plasma is for TV's, there are no plasma monitors...
For videos was better, but they're not cheaper to produce (generally speaking)... LCD's have a lower power consumption, since LED technology even lower and also lasts longer (plasma degrades faster). S-PVA LCD's are very close to plasma and also cheaper to produce, but still in a direct comparison a Plasma might look better then any LCD, yet cause of LCD's pros most would chose them over plasma.
For videos was better, but they're not cheaper to produce (generally speaking)... LCD's have a lower power consumption, since LED technology even lower and also lasts longer (plasma degrades faster). S-PVA LCD's are very close to plasma and also cheaper to produce, but still in a direct comparison a Plasma might look better then any LCD, yet cause of LCD's pros most would chose them over plasma.