iPhone in Space

[weebling1]

It is unbelievable how some people in these forums ask such moronic questions.

'Why doesn't NASA launch the space shuttle with balloons?'
'Why are they sending space debris?'
'GPS wouldn't work that high up would it?'

NASA does not try to prove that the earth is round. We all know it is.

It's time to step away from your rigs and watch the Discovery Channel, the Smithsonian Channel and some PBS.

If you need to do everything the [H]ard way, then do what I do. I watch them on a 72" DLP with 5.1 Surround Sound.

Oh, and visiting a Science Center won't hurt either.

Let the rants and flames begin....

Kudos!
quick facts for the budding scientists:

iPhone+hard warmers+parachute+foam = 2 lbs.? = 1 balloon

Space Shuttle loaded launch weight = 4.5 million pounds = 2,250,000 balloons !!!!!

...and the balloon *POPPED* at the apex of its flight

 

[msny]

No it doesn't. While this was a fun father/son project, they didn't get anywhere close to outer space. The Balloon went to around 100,000 feet- or about 18 miles. The Karman line, generally regarded as the boundary of outer space, is 100km (62 miles). Reentry for the space shuttle is defined as starting at 72 miles. Going orbital requires more altitude than that.

Balloons cannot reach outer space almost by definition. If there were enough atmosphere to support a balloon, it wouldn't be outer space.

No foolin' ballons can't reach into space....
The point is, with little effort, a lot can be acomplished.

Ever hear of the X-project.
This is an extension of that, at a fraction of the NASA cost.

http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/spacex-dragon-capsule-test-flight-101011.html

Again, a little effort goes a long way.

 

[bloodhawke83]

Because space shuttles are fucking heavy, that's why. That's like asking why planes take off from runways instead of using balloons to lift them into the sky. We tried that, it didn't work so well.

we fly bricks into space.

 

[caddys83]

Isnt this the 2nd, maybe 3rd time someone has done this? ZZZzzz...

 

[jadams]

I highly doubt the phone was getting a GPS signal that high contrary to the "hello where do u think gps satalites are located." I've never gotta a gps signal while on a plane when i travel, and i've tried plenty of times with my BB and a tomtom.

 

[jadams]

No foolin' ballons can't reach into space....
The point is, with little effort, a lot can be acomplished.

Ever hear of the X-project.
This is an extension of that, at a fraction of the NASA cost.

http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/spacex-dragon-capsule-test-flight-101011.html

Again, a little effort goes a long way.

I like this. At first I was against NASA canceling the shuttle program. But if we get the private sector into space flight it would create more jobs and missions for current astronauts. Safety might be a risk as someone in this thread noted about how NASA strives for perfection. I would assume the private companies would strive for the same thing and really cant be commented on currently.

 

[Webhead]

Great. Now let's get a balloon to take Steve Jobs into space and see where he lands.

 

[Jon855]

I'm glad I had the right idea - no, not even close to space either.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oe1kbz52sxU

Anyways - it's not space. Space starts at 100km which's about a bit more than 3x the altitude they were at - mad props to them anyways That kid got a cool father.

 

[B1zz]

I highly doubt the phone was getting a GPS signal that high contrary to the "hello where do u think gps satalites are located." I've never gotta a gps signal while on a plane when i travel, and i've tried plenty of times with my BB and a tomtom.

you do realize the plane you're ridding in is using GPS....right??

 

[Jon855]

You just need to get permission from the FAA to perform the launch. These type of launches are done all the time. These are the same balloons NOAA launches every day. Also, there are many universities that will launch them in undergrad classes. The University of Washington has been launching these every quarter in ESS 205. That said, these balloons do not get to space. Like all other balloon, they just float in the atmosphere. You need to get above 325,000 feet before you are considered to be in space.

Not entirely accurate. You do not need a permission to launch unmanned objects if the total weight is under a pre-determined limit and or any other limits.

http://www.eoss.org/pubs/far_annotated.htm

§101.1 Applicability.

(a) This part prescribes rules governing the operation in the United States, of the following:

(4) Except as provided for in §101.7, any unmanned free balloon[1] that --

• (i) Carries a payload package that weighs more than four pounds and has a weight/size ratio of more than three ounces per square inch on any surface of the package, determined by dividing the total weight in ounces of the payload package by the area in square inches of its smallest surface;
  
• (ii) Carries a payload package that weighs more than six pounds;
  
• (iii) Carries a payload, of two or more packages, that weighs more than 12 pounds; or
  
• (iv) Uses a rope or other device for suspension of the payload that requires an impact force of more than 50 pounds to separate the suspended payload from the balloon.[2]

 

[Machupo]

If the iPhone's GPS is running an ITAR-compliant firmware, the altitude restriction is 18000m with a velocity restriction of 512m/s. Again depending on the firmware, one satisfied condition may block tracking or it may require both conditions to be true.

Or, maybe they just loaded custom firmware.

 

[jadams]

you do realize the plane you're ridding in is using GPS....right??

That doest equate....

The plane gps != iphone gps. put that retarded rolling eyes away.

 

[QES]

Heres an interesting page I ran into a few days ago that you guys will enjoy. It gives you tidbits of info from the various atmospheres/height. Col Joseph Kittinger holds the record for highest skydive, which was..100,000 ft roughly. The same height they sent the balloon.

Earth's Atmosphere Top to Bottom

 

[Blown 89]

That doest equate....

The plane gps != iphone gps. put that retarded rolling eyes away.

GPS devices work in an airplane, you're not getting signal inside the plane. Next time you fly read the in flight pamphlet and you'll see that a lot of airlines encourage people to use them. GPS devices work in airplanes, just because yours didn't doesn't mean they don't all work.

 

[jadams]

GPS devices work in an airplane, you're not getting signal inside the plane. Next time you fly read the in flight pamphlet and you'll see that a lot of airlines encourage people to use them. GPS devices work in airplanes, just because yours didn't doesn't mean they don't all work.

Once again someone sidestepped logic to make a retarded post....

Nowhere did i say that ALL gps devices will not work because the two devices I tried to use GPS with did not work.

Did i say that?^ Quote me!

I merely stated that based off the two devices i tested that it is unlikely (UNLIKELY != impossible) that the iphone recieved a gps signal.

I cannot possibly dumb it down anymore than that.

 

[QES]

I highly doubt the phone was getting a GPS signal that high contrary to the "hello where do u think gps satalites are located." I've never gotta a gps signal while on a plane when i travel, and i've tried plenty of times with my BB and a tomtom.

I believe it's because while you are in a plane, you are traveling too fast for 'most' GPS devices to get a signal. During the video when the balloon pops and it starts it's descent, it was going up to about 150mph. It wasn't until it slowed down that the GPS was able to get a signal to transmit the co-ordinates.

Taken from the video at 5:54 mark.

slowing to 15mph, the GPS transmits its coordinates for the first time, as it shows up on a map.

 

[Daifeichu]

Restrictions on civilian use

The U.S. Government controls the export of some civilian receivers. All GPS receivers capable of functioning above 18 kilometers (11 mi) altitude and 515 metres per second (1,001 kn)[4] are classified as munitions (weapons) for which U.S. State Department export licenses are required. These limits attempt to prevent use of a receiver in a ballistic missile. They would not prevent use in a cruise missile since their altitudes and speeds are similar to those of ordinary aircraft.
This rule applies even to otherwise purely civilian units that only receive the L1 frequency and the C/A (Clear/Acquisition) code and cannot correct for Selective Availability (SA), etc.
Disabling operation above these limits exempts the receiver from classification as a munition. Vendor interpretations differ. The rule targets operation given the combination of altitude and speed, while some receivers stop operating even when stationary. This has caused problems with some amateur radio balloon launches, which regularly reach 30 kilometers (19 mi).

Don't know how true this is coming from Wikipedia but didn't feel like digging deeper.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Positioning_System

A very cool project for a father and son. Maybe someday the kid will go to space after having that experience with the old man.

 

[Blown 89]

Once again someone sidestepped logic to make a retarded post....

Nowhere did i say that ALL gps devices will not work because the two devices I tried to use GPS with did not work.

Did i say that?^ Quote me!

I merely stated that based off the two devices i tested that it is unlikely (UNLIKELY != impossible) that the iphone recieved a gps signal.

I cannot possibly dumb it down anymore than that.

Acting like a tool doesn't make you right and at this point that's all you've done. You're throwing a tantrum that I'm not providing logic but you haven't provided an ounce of it yourself. All you've told us is that because you didn't get GPS signal in your phone it's unlikely that anyone else can and that an airplane's GPS is different than one in a phone. Wow, you really put a lot of thought into those statements didn't you!

How do you know that it's unlikely that anyone can get GPS signal? Have you done studies? Do you know anything about GPS signals? Did you take into account where you are in the plane? The plane's materials? The surrounding interference? I was able to get GPS signal in the airplane. The simple fact is that you don't know shit and you think acting like a jerk somehow makes you right. All you've offered so far is conjecture.

Here are the facts. The COCOM limits for GPS receivers is 512 m/s (over twice as fast as a 747) and 18,000m (30,000 feet over most cruising altitudes). GPS devices are allowed to exceed either of those limits but not both. Seeing as how those limits come nowhere close to the cruising altitude or speed of a commercial airliner it is very likely that one can use GPS on an airplane. Those limits are firmware limited.

I can't wait to hear your factless reply!

 

[robble]

I highly doubt the phone was getting a GPS signal that high contrary to the "hello where do u think gps satalites are located." I've never gotta a gps signal while on a plane when i travel, and i've tried plenty of times with my BB and a tomtom.

don't be stupid. gps signals are very much in the air that high. you are inside an airplane which is blocking the signal.. my phone has a hard time getting gps signals inside a car if it's not next to a window.

That doest equate....

The plane gps != iphone gps. put that retarded rolling eyes away.

who gives a crap about what gps receiver you are using. the signal is still "up there"

Once again someone sidestepped logic to make a retarded post....

I cannot possibly dumb it down anymore than that.

once again you made a retarded post and you're right on one thing - you couldn't possibly make a dumber statement.

Those are signals are as high as the satellites themselves and possibly go way further out depending on which way they radiate.

Maybe that isn't the thing you are trying to argue yet it is exactly what you are arguing as noted in bold in the first post of yours I quoted.

 

[Bamboo]

Coolest thing I've seen in a while. Gratz Guys!

 

[msny]

I like this. At first I was against NASA canceling the shuttle program. But if we get the private sector into space flight it would create more jobs and missions for current astronauts. Safety might be a risk as someone in this thread noted about how NASA strives for perfection. I would assume the private companies would strive for the same thing and really cant be commented on currently.

Safety is always a great issue. While no one doing space will be perfect, its in the best interest of a private company. Their business depends on it.

The fact thats its starting to happen, may make space as accessible as jumping on an airliner today.

 

[Sobek]

But you're right. Proving earth was round only needed a weather balloon and a camera. Still, some people still don't believe it.

It's even easier than that. Here is a favorite quote of mine.

The church says the earth is flat, but I know that it is round, for I have seen the shadow on the moon, and I have more faith in a shadow than in the church.

-Ferdinand Magellan

 

[jadams]

Acting like a tool doesn't make you right and at this point that's all you've done.

Changing around what I've said doesnt make you right and at this piont thats all you've done.

You're throwing a tantrum that I'm not providing logic but you haven't provided an ounce of it yourself.

Again you misinterpruted my statment and then refuted it. Thats called a strawman's arguement. Whether you meant to do it or not. And nobody's throwing a tantrum, there was no stamping of the feet and i didnt call my mom to complain about it or ask my dad to beat up your dad.

So lets recap....This is where the logic you asked for comes in, pay attention.

I made a statement about isolated incidents with specific devices (a device thats probably shares similar gps hardware as an iphone) that you read as me saying I've done extensive testing on all devices.

If you cannot understand that then this conversation cannot continue.

All you've told us is that because you didn't get GPS signal in your phone it's unlikely that anyone else can and that an airplane's GPS is different than one in a phone.

Nope, I said that based off the two devices I tested that I believe its unlikely the iphone (not everybody) got a reception. I nowhere said that because my phone and tomtom didnt recieve a signal that its completely impossible for every other device that someone might use on a plane (including the hardware in the plane) to get a signal. I asked you to quote me where I said that. You didnt quote me because I never said it.

Furthermore do you really think the plane uses an iphone for navigation? Or something simlar?

Wow, you really put a lot of thought into those statements didn't you!

Actually I did. I made a statement that I thought was clear enough that most somewhat educated people can read it FOR WHAT IT SAYS and not what they think it says.




Have you done studies? No and I think I was clear about that in my original statment, However I think I travel on planes more ferequent than 90% of people so I've probably done more of these crude test
Do you know anything about GPS signals? Not really. No more than you i'd assume.
Did you take into account where you are in the plane? Yes I've tried form different parts of the plane, front to back
The plane's materials? This is negated by having a signal on the ground, but not in the air
The surrounding interference? See above
I was able to get GPS signal in the airplane. I believe you. Doesnt mean I did. and It stilld oesnt mean I think the iphone did on the weather balloon.

The simple fact is that you don't know shit and you think acting like a jerk somehow makes you right. All you've offered so far is conjecture.

The simple fact is that I got what I said turned around and got the rolling eyes for it. All thats offered is a straw man's arguement.

Here are the facts. The COCOM limits for GPS receivers is 512 m/s (over twice as fast as a 747) and 18,000m (30,000 feet over most cruising altitudes). GPS devices are allowed to exceed either of those limits but not both. Seeing as how those limits come nowhere close to the cruising altitude or speed of a commercial airliner it is very likely that one can use GPS on an airplane. Those limits are firmware limited.

This paragraph may offer facts but not the right ones. First and formost you're posting on a forum that should know the difference between theoretical and real world performance. Just because the limitations of GPS as a whole are whats in the above paragraph does not mean that a phone or a car gps or any other consumer based gps is able to get a signal in the conditions of the weather balloon, or in a commercial airliner. You even said in the bolded text i highlited there that you think its firmware limited. YMMV!!! However I still stand by my original statment where i doubted the iphone got a signal in those conditons as the two devices I used are most simlar to it.

I can't wait to hear your factless reply!

That stupid rolling eyes seems to be the norm when people make a point?


In the end there really isnt a way to test my original statment, it was purely opinion. However my original opinion wasnt refuted. A misrepresentation of what I said was refuted.


I leave you with this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

read it..... read it twice.

(i hope i got all the quotes right before i hit submit reply, im at work and i've spent too much time on this nonsense to bein with. figure it out)

 

[eon]

It proves that NASA spends lots of money on something that anyone can do with a little knowledge and a small budget.

really? this was a toy project that provided no new knowledge. Im sure NASA can send a weather balloon and camera in the sky if they felt like wasting time on something so useless.

 

[wra18th]

Well, I see everything is still the same here......

It was a very cool father and son project. End of subject. Let's move on to something else.....

 

[NahBrah]

I highly doubt the phone was getting a GPS signal that high contrary to the "hello where do u think gps satalites are located." I've never gotta a gps signal while on a plane when i travel, and i've tried plenty of times with my BB and a tomtom.

This is where you ignorantly said that the you doubt the iphone got a gps signal, despite the fact that it sat peacefully, suspended above most all atmospheric particles, in glorious clear view of the stronger signals of all the gps satellites not too much further (relatively) above it, all based on the fact that you didn't get a gps signal in a flying faraday cage with windows. lol.

 

[msny]

really? this was a toy project that provided no new knowledge. Im sure NASA can send a weather balloon and camera in the sky if they felt like wasting time on something so useless.

Then you have no concept of what people can acomplish, given there own resources.

How much has that NASA knowledge cost taxpayers in the last 40 years?
How much did it cost the dad and kid to do there thing?
How much will it cost private industry?

Whats useless is paying 100 bucks for a special wrench, when I can go down to the hardware store and buy one for 10 bucks.

Again, you have no concept.

 

[NahBrah]

Did you grow up on a farm?

 

[robble]

Have none of you ever seen "Salvage 1"?