Ipad, Windows Tablet, or Android..so many choices, help.

mope54 said:
I doubt the iPad will have pens. Jobs' vision is to transform all input to natural human touch. If you listen to what he says when he lays out his idea of the perfect input device, it's the human finger. To him, adding a pen would be moving backwards.
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Exactly. Someone who gets it.
 
niranjan162 said:
Agreed. If you want any type of productivity which it seems you do, you should go windows based.
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Funny you mention that, a friend of mine who works at Blizzard Entertainment uses an iPad for everything these days. His main use is note taking at meetings and recording the audio. He adds images if he has to, converts it to a PDF or TXT, emails it out to the rest of the team and done. My mom is a doctor and she others at the hospital use iPads now. I work in the film industry and for quick and dirty image manipulation (ie - doing a color correct on a still to send a loot to the post house or client) it is great.

Many people use them as web/email/entertainment devices, but to say that people don't use them for productivity is incorrect.
 
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heatlesssun said:
I'm not changing anything. The premmise of my argument behind the Coruier being a possible blockbuster is that pens are useful and can have wide appeal as they already have a LOT of usefulness, it's just not well understood. You were the one that called pens niche and obvisouly if pens are niche then how could Coruier do well in terms of numbers?
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I understand what you're saying, and the idea that such a device would be as a runaway success as the iPad is crazy.

You realize that in its first year it will have outsold the number of XBox 360s that Microsoft sold in three, and that it sold much faster than the iPhone or iPod, right? If something like the Courier did a fifth of that business, it would be a miracle.

People don't care about pens, and they certainly don't care about hardware sold by Microsoft unless it is a game console.
 
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iceredwing said:
I simply couldn't tolerate the iPad because I rely heavily on flash based video content to pass time.
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I honestly have a hard time finding video content that I can't view on the iPad. Even streaming sites like JustinTV or UStream work on the iPad now. A while ago I gave up trying to find pages that I can't view on it. I went on something random like Penny Arcade TV and lo and behold, iPad compatible. So yeah, its super rare, and it will continue to be that way as major video websites want people watching content on their mobile devices, and for that you can't lean on Flash.

Each tablet has its specific qualities, and the constant need to compare them is ridiculous since they have specific strengths and weaknesses. Neither of the 3 is a 'be all' replacement to a normal laptop's function (I.E. suit your needs for entertainment, productivity, and software library accessibility).

So just use your common sense and you will be fine.
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Absolutely agreed. This goes with any hardware or platform, really. It's why I own so much crap. :mad:
 
Serpico said:
I understand what you're saying, and the idea that such a device would be as a runaway success as the iPad is crazy.

You realize that in its first year it will have outsold the number of XBox 360s that Microsoft sold in three, and that it sold much faster than the iPhone or iPod, right? If something like the Courier did a fifth of that business, it would be a miracle.

People don't care about pens, and they certainly don't care about hardware sold by Microsoft unless it is a game console.
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How many people write with pen and or pencil EVERYDAY? You say no one cares about pens and yet millions and millions of people use them everyday. I'm not saying that every one of those regular pen and paper folks would need or even like digital ink but I certain a lot would.

While digital pens have been around for a long time they are just beginning to show in decent form factors and not astronomical prices. Just like slate computers until this year. Small lightweight slates are a natural fit for pens no matter our opinions on the subject and those devices at reasonable prices are just starting to appear.

You're so taking the Jobs line that you're even denying the efforts taken by iPad developers for instance to create an OneNote analog, last time I checked there's about 6 different applications that attempt to do digital ink and clone OneNote, even people working on palm rejection. A lot of effort for something you continuously claim no one cares about on a platform that doesn't even handle it well.

Interesting.
 
heatlesssun said:
How many people write with pen and or pencil EVERYDAY? You say no one cares about pens and yet millions and millions of people use them everyday. I'm not saying that every one of those regular pen and paper folks would need or even like digital ink but I certain a lot would.

While digital pens have been around for a long time they are just beginning to show in decent form factors and not astronomical prices. Just like slate computers until this year. Small lightweight slates are a natural fit for pens no matter our opinions on the subject and those devices at reasonable prices are just starting to appear.

You're so taking the Jobs line that you're even denying the efforts taken by iPad developers for instance to create an OneNote analog, last time I checked there's about 6 different applications that attempt to do digital ink, even people working on palm rejection. A lot of effort for something you continuously claim no one cares about on a platform that doesn't even handle it well.

Interesting.
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When did I ever say nobody would use a pen interface? Never. There will be some people who want to use it. As an option it's fine. I myself only use a pen to sign my signature, otherwise I use a keyboard. Loads of people I know use a keyboard (ie - my developer friend at Blizzard who records meetings and does pretty much everything else with an iPad and a BT keyboard).

I do think that putting finger as a first class citizen and focusing on pen interface second is important for any device that wants mass adoption. Why use a pen for a user interface when you can just touch the screen and get accurate input?

And no, touch input is godawful on devices like the tm2. Sorry. I'll be at CES next month, I'm very curious to see firsthand how the new crop of Windows 7 slates are.
 
any OneNote analogs are going to be finger input based. There may be third party companies releasing pens (I know of one currently) but I already stated in this thread Jobs' opinion on the matter: the finger is the perfect input device that every human with fingers already knows how to use expertly.

If you listen to his keynote speeches you'd know that this is what he says and how he has been moving Apple toward for decades. His vision is to completely remove any non-human interfaces between the human being and the information as much as possible.

There isn't any reason harping on it because that's the way it is. It also doesn't matter how many people use pens or pencils every day because that doesn't mean people want to use them or need to use them...on technology devices or otherwise.
 
heatlesssun said:
How many people write with pen and or pencil EVERYDAY?
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I might use a pen to make little notes on scrap paper I end up throwing away or, like Serpico said, to sign my name on the back of checks or on a credit card receipt, but otherwise I don't do any kind of writing. Most days I don't even pick up a pen or pencil once.
 
Not to add fuel to the fire here..but I actually couldn't wait..as soon as I played with my Uncle's IPAD, I had to have one so I jumped on it. Should be here in a few days. He works for Cisco and uses it for work alot and this new position will be very similiar to his so hopefully it works out. My thought is that Apple products generally hold their value so if I don't like it or it doesn't suit my needs, i'll just sell and get something else.
 
Serpico said:
And no, touch input is godawful on devices like the tm2. Sorry. I'll be at CES next month, I'm very curious to see firsthand how the new crop of Windows 7 slates are.
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Yes, it's so horrible that I can surf the full web, Flash and all using only touch, with any browser I choose, shockingly bad.

But yes the touch interface in Windows does need to be improved, I never said otherwise. But that's mostly not an issue with Windows but the applications that need improvement and for a number of things like web surfing, certain games, eReading even now it's not as bad as you're claiming and can be faster and more efficient and even simpler than an iPad in certain situations.

There's plenty of people that use tm2s that agree with this, and some of them have iPads as well.;)
 
phide said:
I might use a pen to make little notes on scrap paper I end up throwing away or, like Serpico said, to sign my name on the back of checks or on a credit card receipt, but otherwise I don't do any kind of writing. Most days I don't even pick up a pen or pencil once.
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And how many times do people loose sometimes important information like that? Keyboards, mice and touch are great. Pens are too. None of these input methods really replaces the other.

Serpico said:
Loads of people I know use a keyboard (ie - my developer friend at Blizzard who records meetings and does pretty much everything else with an iPad and a BT keyboard).
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Serpico said:
Exactly. Someone who gets it.
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So that wonderful touch UI didn't replace a keyboard for this person and they could have just used a laptop. Doesn't sound like you're developer friend at Blizzard got the memo either. This is my point. Trying to force one input method into ALL situations. Why, when a more appropiate tool exists?
 
Serpico said:
Funny you mention that, a friend of mine who works at Blizzard Entertainment uses an iPad for everything these days. His main use is note taking at meetings and recording the audio. He adds images if he has to, converts it to a PDF or TXT, emails it out to the rest of the team and done. My mom is a doctor and she others at the hospital use iPads now. I work in the film industry and for quick and dirty image manipulation (ie - doing a color correct on a still to send a loot to the post house or client) it is great.

Many people use them as web/email/entertainment devices, but to say that people don't use them for productivity is incorrect.
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i guess thats why it took 12 years for SC 2 to come out:D
 
Serpico said:
Many people use them as web/email/entertainment devices, but to say that people don't use them for productivity is incorrect.
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I've never said that but to say that iPads are are powerful and capable as Windows devices is also incorrect. I'm not saying that you are saying that but you seem hesitant to just admit the strenghts of Windows on slates and more than willing to point out it's weaknesses.
 
/me feels like this thread is going around in circles since each post is basically rehashing stuff that's already been said by the same posters (in their own posts) at least twice now...

"Can't we all just get along...?" ;)
 
Agreed, anyone who's honest about it will just admit that all of these platforms have their strengths and weaknesses as is with all things made by humans.

I do find it odd that someone would tout the wondrous touch capabilities of the iPad and then give as an example of it's power as a productivity device a scenario where someone has it attached to a keyboard. I've taken tons of meeting notes with my HP Slate, never ONCE attached to a keyboard, it would have slowed me down for some for some of the things I was doing.

Peculiar.

For those who think the Slate is crap, had you been lucky enough to get one you could have gotten a free iPad out of it by reselling. Just saw a Slate 500 go for $1525 on eBay, almost double the retail price. http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI...92329&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT#ht_1477wt_1035
I'm a huge Windows fan obviously but $1500 for what is essentially a mid-range netbook is crazy, but I know that Apple fans are perhaps even crazier.
 
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heatlesssun said:
So that wonderful touch UI didn't replace a keyboard for this person and they could have just used a laptop. Doesn't sound like you're developer friend at Blizzard got the memo either. This is my point. Trying to force one input method into ALL situations. Why, when a more appropiate tool exists?
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First off, keyboards have always been options for the iPad. Not just through bluetooth, Apple even makes that silly dock with the keyboard built into it. Nobody is forcing keyboards out of the equation, especially Apple since they designed it for easy keyboard integration.

Second, the practical advantages for my friend are that the iPad is lighter than a laptop, is instantly on, and has crazy battery life. Given the choice between a laptop or an iPad+BT keyboard, he goes with the latter.

As for myself, when I travel for business I've been using my laptop less and less. You know what it gets used for that my iPad isn't? Starcraft 2. For everything else when I'm on a plane with in-flight wifi or the hotel, I'll probably be using the iPad, much more convenient.
 
heatlesssun said:
I've never said that but to say that iPads are are powerful and capable as Windows devices is also incorrect. I'm not saying that you are saying that but you seem hesitant to just admit the strenghts of Windows on slates and more than willing to point out it's weaknesses.
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Of course. My issue with Windows on slates isn't the potential, it is weaknesses in the operating system itself in terms of being as good for touch as it is for mouse and keyboard. Yes, OneNote is great, but the desktop UI and application support has a long way to go IMHO. If they make it as logical and fast to use as the iPad in applications and the browser, then I'll change my tune.

Until then, you have one platform where every single application is designed from the ground-up for a standardized touch interface, and another where a not-so-good translation layer is there to shoehorn touch functionality into an operating system designed for another input method.

Again, it is completely obvious that a full version of Windows gives you loads of options, nobody is disputing that. I have three machines with Windows 7 licenses on them, one of them a Mac, so I would never argue against that. The thing is that Microsoft needs to make their operating system that is much better suited to mouse and keyboard into one that is as good as an Apple device at touch. Simple. I use a tm2 and I think that this is an OS that isn't even half baked in terms of being finger friendly.

That's all I'm arguing. Until then, there are better and less expensive options for devices that revolve around touch. If I'm using Windows, it'll be with a mouse/trackpad and keyboard. We'll see how long it'll take for them to finally nail it, or if they do the iOS and WebOS thing and branch off another discreet version of Windows for touch, perhaps using the Windows Mobile 7 UI paradigms.
 
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Serpico said:
First off, keyboards have always been options for the iPad. Not just through bluetooth, Apple even makes that silly dock with the keyboard built into it. Nobody is forcing keyboards out of the equation, especially Apple since they designed it for easy keyboard integration.
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I'm not saying there is anything wrong with keyboards on touchscreen devices; I own several touchscreen devices with built-in keyboards after all. But if you're going to criticize Windows on touchscreens because it's a keyboard and mouse centric OS it's only fair to mention that Windows works better with keyboards than an iPad, it definitely has more powerful productivity software if you're going to use a keyboard. Any keyboard you want.

In the scenario you mention with your friend the iPad has better battery life but with a keyboard and travel mouse using the Slate you have a full-fledged Windows machine no heavier than the iPad with the flexibility of a pen interface as well and the best productivity on the planet. The iPad isn’t yet ready to beat Windows at productivity as Windows isn’t ready to take on the iPad’s touch UI.
 
Serpico said:
Of course. My issue with Windows on slates isn't the potential, it is weaknesses in the operating system itself in terms of being as good for touch as it is for mouse and keyboard. Yes, OneNote is great, but the desktop UI and application support has a long way to go IMHO. If they make it as logical and fast to use as the iPad in applications and the browser, then I'll change my tune.

Until then, you have one platform where every single application is designed from the ground-up for a standardized touch interface, and another where a not-so-good translation layer is there to shoehorn touch functionality into an operating system designed for another input method.

Again, it is completely obvious that a full version of Windows gives you loads of options, nobody is disputing that. I have three machines with Windows 7 licenses on them, one of them a Mac, so I would never argue against that. The thing is that Microsoft needs to make their operating system that is much better suited to mouse and keyboard into one that is as good as an Apple device at touch. Simple. I use a tm2 and I think that this is an OS that isn't even half baked in terms of being finger friendly.

That's all I'm arguing. Until then, there are better and less expensive options for devices that revolve around touch. If I'm using Windows, it'll be with a mouse/trackpad and keyboard. We'll see how long it'll take for them to finally nail it, or if they do the iOS and WebOS thing and branch off another discreet version of Windows for touch, perhaps using the Windows Mobile 7 UI paradigms.
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This is overall very reasonable. If you think that the tm2's touch interface sucks so be it. A lot of people think that lack of Flash and other plug-ins sucks, you don’t and that’s fine. But through that sucky touch interface as you call it I have access to 100% of web I any browser, any plug-in, the web as it is.

Mostly this is all a matter of opinion; you have the nice touch UI when browsing; I have full access to the full web with no technical limits.
 
Had an iPad...waste of money in my opinion. Still used my laptop for everything after the shine wore off. iPad just sat there.

Until I can have a tablet PC like the ipad with a fully functioning Windows 7 or OS X on it I will not be purchasing one.

I am will be looking at this new thing from ASUS, but even that I am unsure if i can get rid off all there interfaces and just have windows like on a desktop.
 
All of the Windows slates that I know of that come with an add-on UI layer don't prevent one from disabling it or not using it. The HP Slate doesn't come with anything additional, just a plain Windows install.
 
XvMMvX said:
Until I can have a tablet PC like the ipad with a fully functioning Windows 7 or OS X on it I will not be purchasing one.
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I love OS X, but it's not an OS you want to use with a touch display. Windows is better-suited to that at the moment.
 
phide said:
I love OS X, but it's not an OS you want to use with a touch display. Windows is better-suited to that at the moment.
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agreed. I hated the new windows 7 look on my desktop. So i changed it to mimick the old windows. But with a touchscreen the new win7 style is just awesome. I had very little trouble clicking small links and buttons...until i got a screen protector at least, but thats not windows fault.
 
niranjan162 said:
agreed. I hated the new windows 7 look on my desktop. So i changed it to mimick the old windows. But with a touchscreen the new win7 style is just awesome. I had very little trouble clicking small links and buttons...until i got a screen protector at least, but thats not windows fault.
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Nice to see someone appreciate the changes in Windows 7 that help out for touchscreens. The new task bar actually has a lot of enhancements that most wouldn't appreciate outside of a touch device.
 
All of the Windows slates that I know of that come with an add-on UI layer don't prevent one from disabling it or not using it. The HP Slate doesn't come with anything additional, just a plain Windows install.
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I am interested in what CES brings, I will hopefully be able to get some hands on with the Slate to see if it fits my needs.
 
heatlesssun said:
Nice to see someone appreciate the changes in Windows 7 that help out for touchscreens. The new task bar actually has a lot of enhancements that most wouldn't appreciate outside of a touch device.
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yea absolutely. I have an iphone too, I know what kinda touch experience apple is bringing to the table. I think windows does a great job of incorporating touch into the system. I dont really like apple products and its annoys the hell out of me to have to use itunes to sync my phone, but apple brings some much needed competition to the market and as a result microsoft has had to step up their game.
 
I'll be the first to admit that touch in Windows 7 isn't perfect but at least on a decent size it's not horrific like some want to make it out to be. Web surfing, document viewing and light editing without the pen, video playback and even gaming work well with touch overall on my devices.

While certain things might look prettier and smoother but the iPad has its shortcomings and overall the experience it's that dissimilar.
 
The real point, I think, is that we've learned which tablet form factor most people want right now.

Arguably, the iPad trumps current Windows tablets because it's just more appealing to many more people. Despite what Bill Gates originally wanted, people aren't running out to buy tablets to handwrite notes and draw sketches. They want something which fulfills that basic netbook computing role but doesn't have the usual computer-level complexity (or a processor that's slow relative to the OS).

It's pretty telling that the "leaked" Microsoft CES keynote will focus on Windows 7 tablets as business-first systems that happen to have media-friendly features. A year ago, it was convinced Windows would kill the then-rumored iPad dead for everyone.
 
I enjoyed reading this thread whilst I sat on my couch, drinking a whiskey diet, watching the Saints on my iPad.

True story.
 
Liver said:
I enjoyed reading this thread whilst I sat on my couch, drinking a whiskey diet, watching the Saints on my iPad.

True story.
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Same could be said for using a NOOKColor I suppose. Someday everything will be done with flat panels and tablets projecting holographic displays in mid-air... ;)
 
Liver said:
I enjoyed reading this thread whilst I sat on my couch, drinking a whiskey diet, watching the Saints on my iPad.

True story.
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I just watched the games on a 55" screen on my couch, also a true story.:D
 
heatlesssun said:
This is overall very reasonable. If you think that the tm2's touch interface sucks so be it. A lot of people think that lack of Flash and other plug-ins sucks, you don’t and that’s fine. But through that sucky touch interface as you call it I have access to 100% of web I any browser, any plug-in, the web as it is.

Mostly this is all a matter of opinion; you have the nice touch UI when browsing; I have full access to the full web with no technical limits.
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Thanks! Believe it or not, I really carefully consider what I say. :) I own products on pretty much every platform out there (well, except Android, bleagh), it's all about what works well on a case by case basis.

In regards to Flash on iOS, it is irrelevant given that the majority of websites serve up iOS compatible video and streaming. With everyone now embracing HTML5, Microsoft especially, it will continue to be more and more superfluous.

Funny enough, the Microsoft keynote that just wrapped up addressed most of my issues with devices such as the tm2 and the W100. Did you see the Acer dual screen notebook? Super cool, and a full properly sized software keyboard that comes right up without any fiddling on the user's part. Same with the Asus tablet, best I've seen so far. It is a shame that the battery life is so horrible, but again, that will be addressed in the future with upcoming versions of Windows that run on ARM processors. It may be partly baked now but it'll get better.

When I criticize something, it isn't because I think it is impossible to be better, it is because I see deficiencies in its current state. These things are in a much better state than they were. When I say that customers were beta testing gear with the tm2 and the W100, I wasn't being snarky, it was just the truth, and the proof is in the fact that we are finally seeing devices that directly address major issues that I had.

Believe me, no room for fanboyism here, I own way too much crap for that. :) The only thing I ask for from mobile devices is balance in terms of portability, usability, and battery life.
 
Yeah, just saw the keynote and just pre-ordered the EP121 and the dual screen Acer is on my list.

As for your criticisms of Windows on slates and tablets I've generally agreed, my biggest disagreement is the Windows 7 touch UI. It's far from perfect but you and others have made it sound as though it's unusable and that's just not true and I'm far from the only person that thinks this, even iPad users that have Tablet PCs see it like I do. Sure the iPad is much nicer on the touch side but when it comes to web browsing, productivity, eBooks and media playback, while the iPad experience is definitely nicer looking it's not necessarily any faster or even simpler and there are things that actually work better on slates in Windows, particularly content creation. Office 2010 on Windows slates is better than anything on the iPad at the moment overall and it's just wicked cool to have my HomeGroups setup so that I can move from any device to any other device effortlessly. I get tired of typing just switch over to a tablet using the same apps and startinking. As seamless as iOS and OS X are it ain't that seamless.

Battery life is an issue but that's all about to change with Windows on ARM and Oak Trail in just a few months. Of course we need to see the touch UI but is there really any doubt that it's going to be WAY better in Windows 8? Kind of think that's a given.

I honestly don't see anything wrong with being a fanboy as long as one remains objective. I've got a lot of crap too but I do stick to Windows, mainly for financial and carrer reasons. I get Microsoft products free from work so its as cheap as Linux or Android to me, my money is in hardware and Windows with it's faults has TREMENDOUS hardware support, especially for gaming.

People talk about Microsoft's lack of innovation and while there's truth to that I look at all of the crap that I've got running on Windows and I look around and there's simply nothing like anything that I have that's on other platforms, definately not just only one.

Windows has plenty of faults. But functionality and hardware support aren't among them.
 
Based on the OP's description, I think the Win 7 OS tablet can take care of these tasks.
I enclose a sample I noticed on a online shopping store.
Windows 7 Tablet
Hope it helps. :p
 
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