jbltecnicspro
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A retro sub-forum would be a good thing to have, methinks. But there are other forums which handle it just as well as we could.
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Intel 286 System
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A retro sub-forum would be a good thing to have, methinks. But there are other forums which handle it just as well as we could.
OH yea Matrox + SLI Voodoo 2s in that was the dream rig
the 333a could OC even higher i think some people got it up to almost 800
jbltecnicspro
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Sorry for the bump. I just got an AMD 20 Mhz 286 for this machine, and my system doesn't like it (won't boot - no POST or anything). In case you all forgot - it's an IBM PS/2 Model 30 286. 68-pin PLCC. The chip dropped in no problem, but the system just doesn't like it. Possible compatibility issue?
DejaWiz
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Probably a compatibility problem. I doubt there's a recent BIOS update that updates the microcode. 
jbltecnicspro
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Probably a compatibility problem. I doubt there's a recent BIOS update that updates the microcode.
Thanks for your response. I do wonder if it is though... I mean (hear me out). This particular model was made in 1989. 20Mhz chips were definitely out by then, were they not? But it was a lower-end model (default CPU is an Intel 286 10 Mhz), and it is IBM we're talking about so I wouldn't put it past them...
DejaWiz
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You have to keep in mind that the systems back then, in terms of capability and compatibility, were no where near as refined as they are now. It was common to see limitations on hardware compatibility even between related product lines from the same manufacturer. Meaning, you could get an IBM desktop model from series "x" with either a 286 8 or 10 MHz, but if you wanted 12 or 16 MHz you had to go with series "y", and if you wanted that uber 20 MHz model you had to go with series "z". All of them would look identical (same chassis), but the only difference would be the MoBo (or maybe even same MoBo just a different BIOS) and the model CPU installed.
Red Falcon
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Red Falcon
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+1
I personally would start a few threads showcasing projects and other fun hardware/software from 20-30 years ago.
Honestly, a retro sub-forum would be nice for systems from the 1990's on back.
People could talk about great times with classic hardware and even showcase accomplishments, feats, or find new capabilities for such hardware.
Yeah, who wouldn't like computers with that old-world charm in them?
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Red Falcon
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Probably a year, if what it encoded was consistently staying within that 16MB memory footprint.
Why would anyone want to do that with this hardware, though?
These systems weren't designed for such things, and even as a joke question, it makes little sense.
What would be neat, is to see systems like this actually host a usable database on a network, and push the system to its hardware and software limits, like this:
Intel didn't introduce microcode updates into processors until after the Pentium FDIV problem. Pentium II was the first I believe.Probably a compatibility problem. I doubt there's a recent BIOS update that updates the microcode.
I'm trying to imagine all the problems why an AMD 20MHz PLCC update would go wrong. It could be that it's not seated all the way in the socket properly (it's notched and possibly dimpled on one corner so hopefully the OP followed that on the socket) and it's easy to warp the socket if the CPU isn't aligned properly when installed.
The AMD 286 was just a 100% licensed clone of the Intel 286, so it should have at least worked at the same clock speed as the original CPU. The OP would have had to replace the oscillator to install a faster CPU, something that's a pain* if it's soldered to the motherboard. (And it looks like the oscillator is soldered to the motherboard in this PS2 model 30 286 motherboard picture: http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/images/2009-09-19-ps2-motherboard.jpg. if it's a 10.000MHz oscillator next to the CPU, then that's the best you'll do on that board without replacing the oscillator.)
* I've replaced soldered oscillators with sockets and new oscillators a few times, before socketed oscillators became the norm. If you're comfortable desoldering stuff it's not too difficult. Now get off my lawn!
DejaWiz
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^ dude, it was in jest!
jbltecnicspro
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So you think I have a dead chip then? Interesting. I noticed also that the AMD chip does NOT get hot, nor warm when running. Whereas the Intel gets warm fast. Dumb question - but could this be a symptom?
It sounds like it is rotated in the socket incorrectly (one edge of the CPU has a side instead of a corner and the socket has a matching corner) or it's not fully seated. The chip is probably fine if it was working when you received it.
The bigger part of that post you should pay attention to is the part about the CPU oscillator. If it originally had a 286-10MHz, even if you plug in a faster chip it will still run at 10MHz. There are no internal multipliers. If you have no intention of desoldering and replacing the oscillator, that's the end of the project.
The bigger part of that post you should pay attention to is the part about the CPU oscillator. If it originally had a 286-10MHz, even if you plug in a faster chip it will still run at 10MHz. There are no internal multipliers. If you have no intention of desoldering and replacing the oscillator, that's the end of the project.
jbltecnicspro
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It sounds like it is rotated in the socket incorrectly or it's not fully seated. The chip is probably fine if it was working when you received it.
The bigger part of that post you should pay attention to is the part about the CPU oscillator. If it originally had a 286-10MHz, even if you plug in a faster chip it will still run at 10MHz. If you have no intention of desoldering and replacing the oscillator, that's the end of the project.
It works. You're right, I had it in wrong. Curious that I nailed the Intel chip all the time. Please tell me more about the oscillator. I was thinking about math co-processing this baby too. Thoughts? Eventually, I'd like to go full tilt and get a Roland MPU for my MT-32 and Sound Canvas.
defaultluser
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It works. You're right, I had it in wrong. Curious that I nailed the Intel chip all the time. Please tell me more about the oscillator. I was thinking about math co-processing this baby too. Thoughts? Eventually, I'd like to go full tilt and get a Roland MPU for my MT-32 and Sound Canvas.
Your modern-day processor takes a base clock of around 100-133 MHz and multiplies it using a Phase Locked Loop (PLL). This yields the processor's clock speed (e.g. 100MHz x 33 = 3.3 GHz), and is used to set the clocks of many other devices in your system. One base clock can generate any clock you want, in 100 MHz increments, simply by using a PLL to multiply it. Your modern processor tells your motherboard what multiplier and voltage to use, and it just runs like magic
The 286 just uses an external oscillator crystal that is FIXED TO ONE SPEED (yours is 10 MHz), and if you want to increase it to 20 MHz, you have to have a chip rated for that speed AND install a new clock crystal that runs at 20 MHz to drive it. That usually involves soldering, and you'll have to know enough about your board to be able to pick it out from the crowd (it might not be the only oscillator).
But be warned: much like your modern computer used the base clock to multiply up, that oscillator may be used for clocking other slower I/O devices in the system (the clock is divided down), and thus you may not be able to increase it without running those parts out-of-spec. You will have to do more research on your system, but if it's an independent oscillator driving your processor, you can just replace it.
http://books.google.com/books?id=vc...cQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=80286 oscillator&f=false
The Phase Locked Loop was introduced in the 486 because the clock was getting so fast that, after it traveled across the motherboard, it was no-longer clean enough to keep things in the system synchronized. Sending a slower clock over the external bus meant much cleaner signal, and the PLL was fairly accurate so the internal 2x or 3x clock multiplier resulted in clean fast clock speeds.
30 years from now (hopefully on this forum), someone is going to post something like:
"Just got a computer with something called a Haswell CPU"
... and there will be comments like:
"Dude, it's good for a doorstop maybe."
"LOL 32 Gigabytes of RAM? What can you do with that?"
"How long would it take to encode a holograpic isomorphic two hour projection?"
"Isn't that back when they were still using something called silicon??"
"You can play 2D games with it -- in really low resolution like 4k or something."
"Holy shit -- 200 gigaflops?? My iWatch 8 is hundreds of times faster than that!"
"Who remembers a company called Microsoft?"
"Intel WOW -- I remember them before they got bought out by AMD!"
"Just got a computer with something called a Haswell CPU"
... and there will be comments like:
"Dude, it's good for a doorstop maybe."
"LOL 32 Gigabytes of RAM? What can you do with that?"
"How long would it take to encode a holograpic isomorphic two hour projection?"
"Isn't that back when they were still using something called silicon??"
"You can play 2D games with it -- in really low resolution like 4k or something."
"Holy shit -- 200 gigaflops?? My iWatch 8 is hundreds of times faster than that!"
"Who remembers a company called Microsoft?"
"Intel WOW -- I remember them before they got bought out by AMD!"
jbltecnicspro
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Your modern-day processor takes a base clock of around 100-133 MHz and multiplies it using a Phase Locked Loop (PLL). This yields the processor's clock speed (e.g. 100MHz x 33 = 3.3 GHz), and is used to set the clocks of many other devices in your system. One base clock can generate any clock you want, in 100 MHz increments, simply by using a PLL to multiply it. Your modern processor tells your motherboard what multiplier and voltage to use, and it just runs like magic
The 286 just uses an external oscillator crystal that is FIXED TO ONE SPEED (yours is 10 MHz), and if you want to increase it to 20 MHz, you have to have a chip rated for that speed AND install a new clock crystal that runs at 20 MHz to drive it. That usually involves soldering, and you'll have to know enough about your board to be able to pick it out from the crowd (it might not be the only oscillator).
But be warned: much like your modern computer used the base clock to multiply up, that oscillator may be used for clocking other slower I/O devices in the system (the clock is divided down), and thus you may not be able to increase it without running those parts out-of-spec. You will have to do more research on your system, but if it's an independent oscillator driving your processor, you can just replace it.
http://books.google.com/books?id=vc...cQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=80286 oscillator&f=false
The Phase Locked Loop was introduced in the 486 because the clock was getting so fast that, after it traveled across the motherboard, it was no-longer clean enough to keep things in the system synchronized. Sending a slower clock over the external bus meant much cleaner signal, and the PLL was fairly accurate so the internal 2x or 3x clock multiplier resulted in clean fast clock speeds.
I do happen to have the technical reference. Is there any verbiage that could help me in determining if this is a doable solution for me? Thank you!
The oscillator is the silver colored thing next to the CPU. It should have writing on it, something like 10.000. I see multiple oscillators and crystals on the board, so I/O speeds shouldn't be a problem.
Oscillators have 4 pins, and are usually not very fragile. I used to de-solder the oscillator, solder in a similar sized socket, then plug a new oscillator in and secure it with a zip tie. Securing it with a zip tie is how most boards used to do it when they came with socketed oscillators and is not just a random hack.
edit: If the system BIOS has memory options, the memory installed probably won't be a problem since you loosen up the specs (like adding wait states or other tweaks). If not, the memory installed might be the next problem you encounter when running the CPU faster. IOW, you may need to install faster memory chips. Fun fact: those old chips connected to the memory bus directly, with minimal logic needed to control banks and chip selects.
Oscillators have 4 pins, and are usually not very fragile. I used to de-solder the oscillator, solder in a similar sized socket, then plug a new oscillator in and secure it with a zip tie. Securing it with a zip tie is how most boards used to do it when they came with socketed oscillators and is not just a random hack.
edit: If the system BIOS has memory options, the memory installed probably won't be a problem since you loosen up the specs (like adding wait states or other tweaks). If not, the memory installed might be the next problem you encounter when running the CPU faster. IOW, you may need to install faster memory chips. Fun fact: those old chips connected to the memory bus directly, with minimal logic needed to control banks and chip selects.
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jbltecnicspro
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Thank you for your help... Crossing fingers...
EDIT: I also take it that getting an 80287 (looks expensive) is a futile endeavor? I'm just using this machine to game and mess around with some assembly.
EDIT: I also take it that getting an 80287 (looks expensive) is a futile endeavor? I'm just using this machine to game and mess around with some assembly.
Red Falcon
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Hell yes, that sounds like an awesome future!
LightningCrash
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I used to run AutoCAD on one of those, and Flight Simulator. I still have the PS/2 Model 25 that my family got at the same time.
Everybody in this thread is saying to trash the thing, and that's what most people did with them. In 20 years that thing will be worth well more than the original list price, just due to the scarcity of them.
You can get an 80287 on eBay for $10. The best thing about the ceramic package chips is that they ring when dropped a short distance to a hard surface (I don't recommend doing that too many times).
Since the 80(2)87 was an optional and somewhat expensive add-on, not much software from that era takes advantage of it. Most code from that era will just run FP emulation, with no native FP path available at all. I wouldn't bother buying a co-processor.
I recommended not spending one cent on that 286 system from the beginning. Almost everything you want to do with a retro computer can be done on a Pentium 3 (you can slow it down using various DOS programs), which people give away nowadays.
D
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It will play SCI and AGI games (and many older SCUMM games) no problem. You'll want to know what video hardware it has. I had a VGA card in a 286 WAYYYYY back, but EGA was also common in that era. Most games of that age work with either (plus a few other types.) However, the newer versions of SCI games that supported 256 colors will not typically work on EGA hardware. Definitely visit VOGONS as mentioned earlier in the thread. I have an MT-32 sitting under my bed. Haven't plugged it in in years.
You can get an ISA VGA card for nothing if you end up needing one. I'd check ebay and local PC recycle shops.
This should be a fun little project. However, running these games in SCUMMVM or DOSBox is flawless, and it even runs on mobile phones, Macs, Windows, Linux, and other devices/OSes. So, if you get fed up setting jumpers to get your IRQs and DMAs right, download DOSBox. You could get a Mini-ITX PC, stick it inside that 286 case, boot straight into DOSBox, and pretend.
You can get an ISA VGA card for nothing if you end up needing one. I'd check ebay and local PC recycle shops.
This should be a fun little project. However, running these games in SCUMMVM or DOSBox is flawless, and it even runs on mobile phones, Macs, Windows, Linux, and other devices/OSes. So, if you get fed up setting jumpers to get your IRQs and DMAs right, download DOSBox. You could get a Mini-ITX PC, stick it inside that 286 case, boot straight into DOSBox, and pretend.
jbltecnicspro
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It will play SCI and AGI games (and many older SCUMM games) no problem. You'll want to know what video hardware it has. I had a VGA card in a 286 WAYYYYY back, but EGA was also common in that era. Most games of that age work with either (plus a few other types.) However, the newer versions of SCI games that supported 256 colors will not typically work on EGA hardware. Definitely visit VOGONS as mentioned earlier in the thread. I have an MT-32 sitting under my bed. Haven't plugged it in in years.
You can get an ISA VGA card for nothing if you end up needing one. I'd check ebay and local PC recycle shops.
This should be a fun little project. However, running these games in SCUMMVM or DOSBox is flawless, and it even runs on mobile phones, Macs, Windows, Linux, and other devices/OSes. So, if you get fed up setting jumpers to get your IRQs and DMAs right, download DOSBox. You could get a Mini-ITX PC, stick it inside that 286 case, boot straight into DOSBox, and pretend.
Oh don't worry - I've been using DOS Box for years. I first discovered it back in 2004 when my beloved Kings Quest games wouldn't run with full sound on Windows XP. I figured that if there was a Sega Genesis emulator that could do the job, certainly there's a DOS emulator?
I also have an MT-32 and a Sound Canvas SC-8850 (sold my old SC-55). So the whole "emulation never sounds as good as the real thing" doesn't really apply to me, since I still use my actual hardware. The PS/2 286 30 has a VGA graphics adapter, and is (for all I know) capable of doing 256 colors. I'm not 100% sure though.
As far as spending money on this system is concerned... Eh. I don't know. I only spend money on computers with excess money we have designated as the "Computer Fund" that gets filled about $50 per month. I so far I've sunk $30 into the system - upgraded 286, sound card, and USB floppy drive. Yeah, probably a bad investment. But then again, I'd argue that I'm having way more fun than some who would drop $500 on a video card. And I'm learning something in the process.
The plan is outlined in the steps below:
1. Get the CPU running at full speed
2. Replace the IBM monitor on it (flyback's going bad)
3. Learn assembly on it and program some fun stuff.
#1 will hopefully work out (crossing fingers!). #2 should be easy, as I have a bunch of CRT's to choose from. But I'm chucking the IBM and hopefully getting a 17-inch Samsung CRT (free). #3 will take a little more work.
D
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Oh don't worry - I've been using DOS Box for years. I first discovered it back in 2004 when my beloved Kings Quest games wouldn't run with full sound on Windows XP. I figured that if there was a Sega Genesis emulator that could do the job, certainly there's a DOS emulator?
I also have an MT-32 and a Sound Canvas SC-8850 (sold my old SC-55). So the whole "emulation never sounds as good as the real thing" doesn't really apply to me, since I still use my actual hardware. The PS/2 286 30 has a VGA graphics adapter, and is (for all I know) capable of doing 256 colors. I'm not 100% sure though.
As far as spending money on this system is concerned... Eh. I don't know. I only spend money on computers with excess money we have designated as the "Computer Fund" that gets filled about $50 per month. I so far I've sunk $30 into the system - upgraded 286, sound card, and USB floppy drive. Yeah, probably a bad investment. But then again, I'd argue that I'm having way more fun than some who would drop $500 on a video card. And I'm learning something in the process.
The plan is outlined in the steps below:
1. Get the CPU running at full speed
2. Replace the IBM monitor on it (flyback's going bad)
3. Learn assembly on it and program some fun stuff.
#1 will hopefully work out (crossing fingers!). #2 should be easy, as I have a bunch of CRT's to choose from. But I'm chucking the IBM and hopefully getting a 17-inch Samsung CRT (free). #3 will take a little more work.
Nice! Yeah, looking at it as a project like that is definitely more worthwhile. If you're going to learn X86 assembly though, (granted I don't code it myself) you might want to grab an old 386 at some point. Having known quite a few demo coders, that's where things started getting interesting on the PC. Some of the old DOS demos might actually run on a 286 though. Worth a shot anyway. Pretty sure the bigger ones like Unreal and Crystal Dreams require 386 hardware though.
jbltecnicspro
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jbltecnicspro
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The oscillator next to the CPU is 48.0000 Mhz... Hmm... So I wonder what the explanation of that is? As you all can probably tell, I'm definitely a noob at this.
Hagrid
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I hang old motherboards on the garage wall. Since I moved I need to start again.
r00k
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I used to have a lot of fun playing Wolfenstein 3D on my friend's 286 Packard Bell.
...
huh! Now I have that same game in Steam running on rig in sig, and it's just as fun. I guess some things don't change.
...
huh! Now I have that same game in Steam running on rig in sig, and it's just as fun. I guess some things don't change.
defaultluser
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The oscillator next to the CPU is 48.0000 Mhz... Hmm... So I wonder what the explanation of that is? As you all can probably tell, I'm definitely a noob at this.
Could it possibly be a 12 MHz 286? If so, then they could be using a 4x divider to get the clock, similar to the 3x divider to get the 8088 mentioned in this article I linked earlier:
http://books.google.com/books?id=vc...cQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=80286 oscillator&f=false
The only way to know for sure it works is to try a faster oscillator, and see if benchmark speeds improve. There is no CPU-Z for platforms that old
Like I said before, enthusiast hacking didn't really come into being until the early 1990s because nothing was really standardized, and the earliest BIOS couldn't agree on how to get things done (some used DIP switches, some used disk BIOS, and later some used EEPROM software switches).
jbltecnicspro
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Could it possibly be a 12 MHz 286? If so, then they could be using a 4x divider to get the clock, similar to the 3x divider to get the 8088 mentioned in this article I linked earlier:
http://books.google.com/books?id=vc...cQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=80286 oscillator&f=false
The only way to know for sure it works is to try a faster oscillator, and see if benchmark speeds improve. There is no CPU-Z for platforms that old
Like I said before, enthusiast hacking didn't really come into being until the early 1990s because nothing was really standardized, and the earliest BIOS couldn't agree on how to get things done (some used DIP switches, some used disk BIOS, and later some used EEPROM software switches).
We will see. I haven't read your link yet (I'm about to head out), but according to the technical reference, the System clock runs at 20 Mhz and at 50 percent duty cycle. I found a 20 Mhz oscillator, but it doesn't look like a four-pin. So... I'm confused. Haha. I've seen some benchmarks out there on Youtube. But alas, this project has to come to a temporary close. We find out this morning if we're having a boy or a girl (first kiddo), and on Sunday I deliver a sermon for a memorial service for a friend who died two weekends ago, and there's a Renaissance Fair in between those two (it has been planned since way before said person died). Long weekend ahead of me...
The 80287 runs at a lower frequency than the CPU. A 48 Mhz oscillator can be used for a 12Mhz CPU and an 8Mhz co-processor (both clk/4*). The frequency divider happens external to the CPU. That system must be from the late 286 period. The VLSI chipset used in it is set up for that ratio, and who knows how the ratios are controlled. That's bad news if you still want to mod it.The oscillator next to the CPU is 48.0000 Mhz... Hmm... So I wonder what the explanation of that is? As you all can probably tell, I'm definitely a noob at this.
edit:
* The 80287 did have an internal clock divisor, which ran at 2/3 the frequency of the input clock. 12MHz input * 2/3 = 8MHz FPU speed for the 80287-8 model. There were higher clock speed FPU models also available.
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Like I wrote, who knows how the ratios are controlled, or whether a 2x clock divisor is even possible at all.
Having a soldered oscillator in the first place suggests IBM wasn't offering many configurations for that motherboard.Good luck finding any reference to an early PC chipset from a company which no longer exists.
jbltecnicspro
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Like I wrote, who knows how the ratios are controlled, or whether a 2x clock divisor is even possible at all.
Good luck finding any reference to an early PC chipset from a company which no longer exists.
You mean I can't call anyone VSLI and ask them?
Screw it. I'll try the mod and see what happens. Live and learn I suppose. The technical manual does state though that a 20mhz clock drives the CPU. I have found said clock, though it looks like a two pin. The four-pin, 48.000 Mhz clock is not mentioned in the document that I can see. What does this all mean? I guess we'll all find out. Thanks for all your help so far, pxc. And I know that you told me not to drop a cent on this machine, and even though I did, it wasn't with any disrespect intended toward you. I needed a USB floppy anyways for my old games, and I thought it would be fun to tinker. If this doesn't work out, oh well.
No problem.
Whether you spent any money on it or not, that's your choice.
One more correction to what I wrote earlier: the 286 does divide the input clock by 2 internally. So the 20MHz mentioned in the technical manual suggests a 10MHz CPU is installed. Whether the chipset will run reliably with a higher frequency oscillator is another potential problem.
I just looked up the higher speed (> 16MHz) Harris and AMD 80286 chips and both also divide the input clock by 2. In the picture I saw of a PS2 Model 30's motherboard, it looked like there were a couple of crystals and another oscillator on the board. If you can find a 20.000MHz oscillator, that may be a way to upgrade the speed.
Whether you spent any money on it or not, that's your choice.
One more correction to what I wrote earlier: the 286 does divide the input clock by 2 internally. So the 20MHz mentioned in the technical manual suggests a 10MHz CPU is installed. Whether the chipset will run reliably with a higher frequency oscillator is another potential problem.
I just looked up the higher speed (> 16MHz) Harris and AMD 80286 chips and both also divide the input clock by 2. In the picture I saw of a PS2 Model 30's motherboard, it looked like there were a couple of crystals and another oscillator on the board. If you can find a 20.000MHz oscillator, that may be a way to upgrade the speed.