Inside The NSA's War On Internet Security

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At this point, nothing the NSA does should surprise us anymore.

US and British intelligence agencies undertake every effort imaginable to crack all types of encrypted Internet communication. The cloud, it seems, is full of holes. The good news: New Snowden documents show that some forms of encryption still cause problems for the NSA.
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You know, If I actually believed that icpiper and his ilk were lawful good I would be OK with that. As a chaotic good character I can deal with the lawful good.

I just no longer believe they are.
 
For a laugh and a real lesson in irony, try asking any of our elected reps who or what, exactly, the NSA is supposed to be protecting, and see if you get something other than absolute hogwash about the protection of American values. The NSA spends its time attacking and trying to defeat internet encryption, while our FCC tries to implement net neutrality rules to protect encrypted traffic. Let us pray the good guys win.
 
Hi NSA>

플蒷律猂鼞ㄈ蒭▎ꀘ臧꾂ᱸ뫸֪計⨈뷎�୭盝쁰癞שּׂ�

Tuesday.

Come alone.

ccf4ea1b45d60232PgZogZ2kSV8aQU7eHTJinRCBdaA7XUuUn
 
JeffDC said:
For a laugh and a real lesson in irony, try asking any of our elected reps who or what, exactly, the NSA is supposed to be protecting, and see if you get something other than absolute hogwash about the protection of American values. The NSA spends its time attacking and trying to defeat internet encryption, while our FCC tries to implement net neutrality rules to protect encrypted traffic. Let us pray the good guys win.
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No one in government is the good guy. No one. They are not your friend, they are not your buddies, they are not on your side. They are on their side. They prove it time and time again, from the two-sided talking points, to the hidden legislative language they use, to the cronyism they display on a daily basis. American values do not exist in the halls of government, only in the hearts and minds of Americans who still give a shit about things like privacy, property rights, individual rights. These are the things government should be protecting, not seeking to erode and that's exactly what they have been doing for decades.
 
This is very much analogous to the US government giving weapons to the Taliban to defeat the Russians.


Let's enrich one source of evil so that we can defeat another source of evil.
 
mastaBlasta said:
This is very much analogous to the US government giving weapons to the Taliban to defeat the Russians.


Let's enrich one source of evil so that we can defeat another source of evil.
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"The devil you know..." principle has been a foreign-policy staple of the US for years. Don't forget that we propped up dictators like Mubarak and Hussein when it suited us, before we decided to knock them back down a peg once they were no longer useful...

As for the real purpose of the NSA, like so many bureaucratic government agencies, they expand so much over time that it becomes nearly impossible to distinguish any particular job duties that they are responsible for. The duplication of responsibilities and/or splitting of responsibilities among agencies will make you head spin if you dig deeply enough into it. The Department of Homeland Security is the most recent addition to the bloated behemoth and naturally it too is a convoluted mess to sort out.
 
MrCaffeineX said:
"The devil you know..." principle has been a foreign-policy staple of the US for years. Don't forget that we propped up dictators like Mubarak and Hussein when it suited us, before we decided to knock them back down a peg once they were no longer useful...

As for the real purpose of the NSA, like so many bureaucratic government agencies, they expand so much over time that it becomes nearly impossible to distinguish any particular job duties that they are responsible for. The duplication of responsibilities and/or splitting of responsibilities among agencies will make you head spin if you dig deeply enough into it. The Department of Homeland Security is the most recent addition to the bloated behemoth and naturally it too is a convoluted mess to sort out.
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Yeah the funny thing about this though, is that is a common policy for the majority of countries and is not limited to the US alone.

As for the NSA being the bad guy, that is also a matter of perspective. They have done a lot to protect people as well. But in these times you almost never hear about all the good things that are done, you mostly just hear about the bad things.

The real question here is how much freedom are people willing to give up for security? The answer is an awful lot. Not just in foreign policy, but also domestic policy. People were quite willing to give up their freedom of choice in health care for government sponsored health care. The funny thing, is many of the same people who cry about how criminal the government is with our data and communication, are more than willing to trust them with our healthcare and health information...
 
NoOther said:
The real question here is how much freedom are people willing to give up for security? The answer is an awful lot. Not just in foreign policy, but also domestic policy. People were quite willing to give up their freedom of choice in health care for government sponsored health care. The funny thing, is many of the same people who cry about how criminal the government is with our data and communication, are more than willing to trust them with our healthcare and health information...
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No, the question is how much freedom will be taken from you against your will. The idea that we have a say in the matter is a fiction.

Give me a document to sign that absolves the NSA from protecting me and me alone, and I will sign today.
 
jojo69 said:
You know, If I actually believed that icpiper and his ilk were lawful good I would be OK with that. As a chaotic good character I can deal with the lawful good.

I just no longer believe they are.
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My ilk?

Oh, you mean other IT guys, or Virtualization Engineers specifically?
 
aardvark sandwich said:
No, the question is how much freedom will be taken from you against your will. The idea that we have a say in the matter is a fiction.

Give me a document to sign that absolves the NSA from protecting me and me alone, and I will sign today.
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That has some truth to it, but the general public still elects the leaders that decide on the fate of the NSA. Also the general public has continuously voted more power to the central government in one fashion or another.
 
JeffDC said:
For a laugh and a real lesson in irony, try asking any of our elected reps who or what, exactly, the NSA is supposed to be protecting, and see if you get something other than absolute hogwash about the protection of American values. The NSA spends its time attacking and trying to defeat internet encryption, while our FCC tries to implement net neutrality rules to protect encrypted traffic. Let us pray the good guys win.
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That our elected leaders don't know how to field such a question shouldn't surprise anyone, politicians are full of hot air for the most part. But if you asked me I'd have a better answer for you.

http://www.defense.gov/about/#mission
The DoD Mission is;
The mission of the Department of Defense is to provide the military forces needed to deter war and to protect the security of our country. The department's headquarters is at the Pentagon.
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The NSA Mission as a DoD Agency is;
The National Security Agency/Central Security Service (NSA/CSS) leads the U.S. Government in cryptology that encompasses both Signals Intelligence (SIGINT) and Information Assurance (IA) products and services, and enables Computer Network Operations (CNO) in order to gain a decision advantage for the Nation and our allies under all circumstances.
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More specificly;
(This is part of what I did for the Army)
The Signals Intelligence mission collects, processes, and disseminates intelligence information from foreign signals for intelligence and counterintelligence purposes and to support military operations.
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and
The Information Assurance mission confronts the formidable challenge of preventing foreign adversaries from gaining access to sensitive or classified national security information.
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https://www.nsa.gov/about/mission/index.shtml
 
As usual, it's pretty clear that average people have this huge sense of entitlement and feel extremely guilty about what they're doing. We obviously need a King (or better yet, a Queen) like the UK only with a lot more power and authority to keep the peons from rattling their cages and disturbing their betters who are trying to enjoy a safe place with good books to read and a nice cup of hot chocolate or tea.
 
CreepyUncleGoogle said:
As usual, it's pretty clear that average people have this huge sense of entitlement and feel extremely guilty about what they're doing. We obviously need a King (or better yet, a Queen) like the UK only with a lot more power and authority to keep the peons from rattling their cages and disturbing their betters who are trying to enjoy a safe place with good books to read and a nice cup of hot chocolate or tea.
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I always hate those damn cage rattlers making so much damn noise, especially when I'm trying to sit down with a book and enjoy some hot cocoa with those little marshmallows.
 
mastaBlasta said:
This is very much analogous to the US government giving weapons to the Taliban to defeat the Russians.


Let's enrich one source of evil so that we can defeat another source of evil.
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The US Government didn't give any weapons to the Taliban. The US Government gave money, (and a few very specialized weapons like Stingers), to the Pakistani ISI,(Inter-Services Intelligence), who then purchased and supplied arms to those groups that ISI got along with, and who would fight the Russians.

It's entirely possible that the CIA guys knew the ISI guys weren't that great of a go between in the long run for these deals but maybe they really didn't know them that well. Maybe they didn't have such a good crystal ball back then in the early 80's to be able to see where things might go 20 years later. It sure help bring about a favorable result in the short term.

Did you ever stop and consider that the USSR always posed a significant nuclear threat back then?

What would have happened if the USSR had stabilized their control of Afghanistan?

How long would Pakistan have lasted against the USSR in Afghanistan and India on the other side?

Maybe the gains would have helped stabilize the USSR's failing economy. If the USSR had endured how much longer would we have been able to avoid a major war? How much riskier would a nuclear war have become?

You guys take way too much for granted. I was in college what the USSR invaded Afghanistan. I lived that era. What do you have to go on that's any better then a wiki page?
 
Ultima99 said:
I always hate those damn cage rattlers making so much damn noise, especially when I'm trying to sit down with a book and enjoy some hot cocoa with those little marshmallows.
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I loooove the Swiss Miss packets with tiny marshmallows in them! (I'm glad I'm not the only one who understands this stuff.) It's always those darned cage rattlers that are out to mess up my personal enjoyment when I drink it with their raving and complaining. :(
 
spintroniX said:
i think quite a few people here perceive you as a government apologist.
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Ahh, as opposed to a media skeptic.

That's OK, I view quit a few people here as "so engrossed with the "possibility" that infringements on their privacy will lead to abuse that they completely miss the real erosion of liberty posed by the effective loss of freedom of the press. The media machine is our "Matrix".

Again, anyone note that this article is from a foreign media source?
 
lcpiper said:
You guys take way too much for granted. I was in college what the USSR invaded Afghanistan. I lived that era. What do you have to go on that's any better then a wiki page?
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I was 4. :D Interesting topic, too (cold war stuff). But, given that we had a threat at the time and it was a pretty huge threat, we threw a lot of resources and things to fight it. With 9/11, we threw away a lot of rights (Patriot Act) willingly. We didn't take away power from any agencies, we didn't get those rights back... We permanently give things up for a temporary sense of security (real or imagined).

The Soviets and the cold war - a lot of it was like today, a lot of propaganda and BS spewed at the American people (both governments did it to their people). They were the evil red empire. Any sympathizers were traitors or spies. We had our own neighbors spying on each other looking out for the Soviet spies. Our government was looking out for spies. Now, we have the internet and a lot more communication. We can fact check, we have people like Snowden, etc.. But, you've mentioned it before, too - a lot of it is the propaganda and BS from the government and media. Now, it's a lot of people pointing at the US government as the evil empire and not the Middle East terrorists. The NSA is looking for spies instead of having our neighbors do it.

Give us a huge threat, like the Soviets and nuclear annihilation, and I'm sure people would be fine with the spying again. Middle East terrorists? It's not a huge threat at all (small one, yes, but IMO we're way overreacting).
 
Why is it that none of the major US Media sources are running this article or even linking to it?

I can't find it on BBC News either.

Anyone find it linked to on any other site other then Der Spiegle?
 
On one hand I bet senior NSA officials are pissed about the mismanagement of their program causing such a huge PR nightmare with the American public....OTOH they couldn't buy PR better than the American conspiracy theorist and the entire world now thinks there are squads of NSA analysts monitoring their every Amazon underwear purchase and Craigslist's encounter.
 
Ur_Mom said:
Give us a huge threat, like the Soviets and nuclear annihilation, and I'm sure people would be fine with the spying again. Middle East terrorists? It's not a huge threat at all (small one, yes, but IMO we're way overreacting).
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It doesn't seem like a huge threat because no one here is looking at the greater implications world wide. For instance, were you aware that muslims make up a significant chunk of French and Spanish politics and extremists have a bit of sway in those? Did you know that they have been running an extremely successful infiltration scheme for decades to invade European politics?

Just because we don't always see it coming, doesn't mean it is not a threat. Should we be in all out panic mode? No. But we shouldn't be in eyes closed mode either.
 
So much of what you say I agree with. It was a scarey time and the spy game was a huge thing then. The Red Scare was a frightful time, the McCarthy trials. One could argue that Hollywood is having a great time today getting back at the government for it's part in that time, the blacklisting of actors, etc. My Dad was in the Army in Germany during the Berlin Airlift, a wiki page of that history wouldn't do it justice. I bet he was scared enough to shit his pants when they rolled them up to a ridge line and told them that if they got over run they should head towards the enemy lands and to the Swiss Alps and not try to run back towards their own lines.

It's right, we do have the internet and we all are so quick to do casual research but there is a problem here. It's hard to find information that is trustworthy, so much get's colored with bias. Impartially portrayed facts are hard to come by. Proof in point is this video by the Mad Turk;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BeavcYV4EMc Where he claims the NSA Directory lied. You have to listen close but the questions are actually different questions. I am not saying there still might be a lie in there, but it's not the one the Mad Turk is falsely pointing to. And there is so much more then this that I have pointed out and no body want's to hear it, I get attacked instead, and can you recall how often someone actually looks at what I point out and says "I see what your saying?". Yea don't bet on that line showing up, the odds are not in your favor.

Of course you could ask any of the survivors of the Boston Marathon bombing what they think of the Terrorist threat?

Then there is the family of that young girl who was arrested before flying to Germany on her way to join her internet ISIL Jihad boyfriend in Turkey. She plead guilty to a single charge with a possibility of a reduced sentence if she helps find others like her. Her sentencing is soon, Jan 23rd we get to see just how "lenient" the government will be with this girl. I hope they go very easy on her because although she intended to go through and might be entirely guilty, I think she is more guilty of just being human and naively young and foolish caught up in her new chosen religion.

Unlike you though, I do see a huge threat. I see our corrupted media and the blindness that many people display toward where they get their information from and how easily they accept it without question as one of the greatest attacks on our freedoms we have ever faced. And it isn't just a threat, it's real and it's happening every single day.

I feel like Chicken Little :(

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/denver-teen-guilty-isis-terrorists-syria-article-1.1934846
 
lcpiper said:
Ask and Ye shall receive :rolleyes:

http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/115645.pdf
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Why is it you are able to parse government language but lack a modicum of literacy when it comes to discussion?

You completely missed my point that we have any say over specific sections of the government and their scope. Your link doesn't fix this.


I love that you think you are an advocate for a free press. That's adorable.
 
aardvark sandwich said:
Why is it you are able to parse government language but lack a modicum of literacy when it comes to discussion?

You completely missed my point that we have any say over specific sections of the government and their scope. Your link doesn't fix this.


I love that you think you are an advocate for a free press. That's adorable.
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Aardvark, you made two comments and I was only addressing the second, your wish. I am so glad you made it too, it opens up a world of room for literate discussion. It also highlights the validity of my suggestion in regards to the document I recommended.

Aardvark, if a citizen wishes that the Government be responsible for our defense then we start losing choices when it comes to how that defense is realized. We see the same in relation to our health care. My daughter had a stroke not long ago and fortunately for her she was signed up with the AHA, ObamaCare. So she was covered, but it's a mixed bag because although the AHA took care of her hospital stay and immediate recovery, they stopped coverage as soon as she was deemed able to exist on her own, "with assistance". Now there is no discussion with them on full recovery so as soon as she is able to be cared for then she is out the door even though it's possible for her to reach a state of near full recovery, they will not see her to that point. She must come up with that on her own or with other's assistance. Had She had more traditional health coverage the insurance would still be paying for her therapy and recovery to the fullest possible, not the minimal.

The same is true of other things, when you ask that the Government do it, you lose control over how it's to be done. That's why I am sort of a minimalist when it comes to the federal Government. When Obama pushed for a law to make background checks mandatory for the personal sale of firearms I asked myself if my own State couldn't do this for me. When the answer is yes then I turn against the Federal solution because I think it all comes out best when you keep the Fed at bay. We can't realistically do background check legislation at the county and city level, but the State level is proven so that is where the decision should be made, for or against, and no higher level of government need be involved.

No here is where I try and bring this back to the topic at hand. If a citizen believes that the NSA programs are wrong .... no, let me be more accurate, that the NSA is violating the privacy of it's citizens and "not in keeping with the spirit of the Constitution", then he may demand action. But if the NSA is not, in fact, violating the privacy of the American citizens then what is the Agency to do? They can, as was done, deny the accusations. They can take additional measures and add more oversight, which they did. They can also look at how often they reevaluate the related programs so that they can be halted if they are no longer needed or if it is shown that additional problems are incurred that were not previously identified. Yet they can not responsibly halt a viable program just because some of the population choose not to believe them when every effort has been mad to validate and vindicate the program and it's necessity.

The Federal Government is going to continue to exercise it's responsibilities as conceived even if some people refuse to accept reality and if those people choose to see the situation as "... we (don't) have any say over specific sections of the government and their scope", then so be it.

You can make some of the people happy all the time and all of the people happy some of the time, but not both. It all get's sorted out come election day.
 
jojo69 said:
"you're with us or you're with the terrorists"
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No one said any such thing, except you.

I think it would be more accurate to say "If you don't like it, you can leave".

Followed closely by "Be careful what you wish for" :D
 
Upton Sinclair — 'It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.'
 
aardvark sandwich said:
No, the question is how much freedom will be taken from you against your will. The idea that we have a say in the matter is a fiction.

Give me a document to sign that absolves the NSA from protecting me and me alone, and I will sign today.
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Ditto. The only thing I want from government is to fix potholes, I have no other use for them.
 
lcpiper said:
You guys take way too much for granted. I was in college what the USSR invaded Afghanistan. I lived that era. What do you have to go on that's any better then a wiki page?
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Afghanistan, that sleepy little country where US Marines guard the poppy fields while the DEA and other law enforcement agencies crucify Americans back at home.

2po2ukn.jpg
 
Piper, you seem to be conspicuously absent from the NSA Christmas report thread, http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1846344

Inadvertently, mistakenly, erroneously, overlooked, poorly constructed, imprecise, without conducting necessary research, incorrect, "because of database problems", "unfamiliar with a query tool", "deleted results after viewing them", overlooked, despite, non-compliant, "NSA/CSS Colorado that approximately X personnel, not all of whom with the proper authority or training, had access to the X", store in a server not authorized to hold it, forwarded to unauthorized recipients, not vetted, "released to unauthorized recipients in a chat room", "Provided a file to an analyst not authorized to receive it", "discovered that the identity of a U.S. entity had not been masked in traffic passed to", "accessed without sufficient documentation regarding the system's procedures for data ingest, age-off, or purge", "some of the incidents involving more than one authority", "incidents of non-compliance with any authority or approval, granted by FISC", "delays.....had not been detasked", "mistakenly included on a renewal of the court order", "communications collected did not belong to the FISC approved target", "while investigating an incident of improper handling of X NSA discovered that analysts in various organizations were not handling the Title I FISA data properly, "it was discovered that metadata obtained under the FISA BR court order had been released in an email without required approval", "incorrectly tasked because of typographical errors", "tasked in error because the target did not meet the criteria of FAA 702 certification", "erroneously tasked because information had not been passed to the analyst......in addition the sector remained on task because of confusion about which analyst would submit the detask request", "should not have been tasked un the X certification", "erroneously retasked in error because the analyst had followed proper procedures", "erroneously tasked because an agency analyst passed an incorrect selector", "not the intended target", "unauthorized targeting on email accounts...the United States", "over broad or poorly constructed database queries", "not in accordance with NSA internal procedures", "selectors associated with an individual who was not the intended target", "delay in detasking of up to 24 hours", "a junior analyst was unaware of the detasking procedures", "remained on task because of a software error", "sent an e-mail to three analysts no authorized to receive it", "analysts were storing FAA 702 data in directories without controlling access to the information/ The analysts were using outdated guidance and were unaware of the proper procedure for handling FAA 702 data", "software failed to place FAA 702 data in the proper file directory that would have provided access control", "placed in a directory that could be accessed by unauthorized and untrained personnel", "accessing data from an unauthorized location. Analyst was approved for FAA 702 data access but then was transferred to another location at which time her access should have been terminated", "domestic communications encountered in the course of authorized collection had not been handled as required".
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That's from part of one report. The truth is that the machine is so expanse that control is nothing more than illusion, no man can glimpse the entire beast, or know what one tentacle is doing over the next.
 
jojo69 said:
You know, If I actually believed that icpiper and his ilk were lawful good I would be OK with that. As a chaotic good character I can deal with the lawful good.

I just no longer believe they are.
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I'm neutral good, so I can at least tolerate both sides. :D
 
Lith1um said:
Piper, you seem to be conspicuously absent from the NSA Christmas report thread, http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1846344




That's from part of one report. The truth is that the machine is so expanse that control is nothing more than illusion, no man can glimpse the entire beast, or know what one tentacle is doing over the next.
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Government is a massive, bloated, multi-headed, obese hydra that is growing ever larger and ever more pervasive and I pray to god that the day it falls, I am not under its shadow. Oh wait.
 
Lith1um said:
Upton Sinclair — 'It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.'
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Might be perfectly true, but my salary is completely independent of any of this. I work for a company that supports Army Network Command and I have nothing to do with the NSA nor does the NSA utilize the development lab I support. Just saying.
 
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