Input needed - i7/480 GTX watercooling setup

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0xygenthief

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Fellow H'ers,

I am about to trek down the watercooling path again and would like to run my proposed system by everyone to make sure I am not making any huge mistakes. I have broken down this post to facilitate easier reading. I am sure most of you will probably find it easier to read this way.

Purpose

The purpose here is twofold. The main reason is to reduce the noise created by my rig. Some of you lucky bastards get to have your own gaming den to escape from the wife and kids. I on the other hand get a corner in our living room. Granted most of the time when I game the kids are asleep and the wife can simply turn the TV up. However, I have had friends comment on my system noise over Ventrilo. So what’s the secondary purpose? Well, if I am going to do anything to my rig that costs me money I better see some results in game! Not really a rock solid justification for buying two new graphics cards but hey that’s my story and I’m sticking to it. I plan on going with the 480 GTX cards for the upgrade. The cards are even louder than my 280 GTX cards so watercooling is the only way to go. Also, I wouldn’t mind bumping my performance even higher with some moderate overclocks for both the CPU and GPU.

Background

Here’s a little bit about me that may help weed out the snarky replies that suggest I read up on the “intro to watercooling” write-ups either here or on other sites. As I said in the beginning of the post this isn’t my first attempt at watercooling. My first w/c setup ran a loop that contained an older lapped AMD FX-57 processor as well as a DD full coverage waterblock for an ATI 1900xtx. I used an old single 9w laing ddc pump and two BIX 120.1 radiators inside of an antec P180 case to keep everything cool. Just like now my main reason was to rid myself of the noise created by my graphics card. So by no means am I a noob at watercooling but still my setup was tame in comparison to some of the systems I have seen in these forums and is why I am reaching out to you all before laying down my Hard earned cash.

System Specs

Current:

Cosmos S case
Gigabyte X58-UD5 Motherboard
I7 940 processor with a TRUE 120
12 GB DDR3 RAM
Twin BFG 280 GTX cards in SLI
Azuentech 7.1 Forte audio card
Therlatake Toughpower 1200w PSU

Proposed Components:

Two 480 GTX gpus – undecided on which brand to go with just yet
Two full coverage GPU blocks for these cards. Watercool Heatkillers are preferred based on current lineup’s performance. However, as of this posting Watercool hasn’t released a block for the 400 series. I am sure they will but if not DD would be my second choice based on past experience with the company.
Heatkiller dual link for parallel flow: http://www.performance-pcs.com/cata...e=product_info&cPath=59_411&products_id=25225
Watercool Heatkiller CPU waterblock: http://www.performance-pcs.com/cata...oduct_info&cPath=59_498_495&products_id=25218
EK-FB Kit for Motherboard chipset and Mosfets: http://www.performance-pcs.com/cata...oduct_info&cPath=59_241_589&products_id=25580
XSPC dual loop reservoir: http://www.performance-pcs.com/cata...oduct_info&cPath=59_318_665&products_id=25767
Two 12w laing ddc pumps: http://www.performance-pcs.com/cata...ge=product_info&cPath=59_201&products_id=2539
1 Feser 360mm Radiator: http://www.performance-pcs.com/cata...t_info&cPath=59_457_667_669&products_id=23558
3 Feaser 120mm Radiators: http://www.performance-pcs.com/cata...t_info&cPath=59_457_667_669&products_id=23556
2 Zalman 6 channel fan controllers: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...=zalman_fan_controller-_-11-999-171-_-Product
12 GentleTyphoon 15 fans: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...re=gentletyphoon_120mm-_-35-185-092-_-Product

Loop Design

The system will have two loops. One for the CPU/Chipset/Mosfets and the other for the GPUs.
Loop 1 (red/blue): Pump -> 120mm Rad - > 120mm Rad -> Chipset -> 120mm Rad -> CPU -> Mosfet
Loop2 (orange/green): Pump -> 360mm Rad -> GPUs (parallel flow)
Fans in push/pull without shrouds
All tubing will be 3/8 ID.

cosmos2.jpg


Areas of Concern

Restriction - I am not 100% sure the 12w laing ddc pumps will have enough power to handle 3 separate radiators and 4 waterblocks. Martin’s calculator would suggest that I will be fine. I know the ddc pumps are strong, my previous 9w version handled two rads and two waterblocks fine but I would feel better if others with similar setups or more restrictive setups had any opinions to share.
Overkill – Originally I wanted to have just two radiators in loop 1 but after reading in various forums about the i7 being a beast to watercool I figured an extra radiator might provide me with better temps and better overclocking success. However would the extra cost, complexity and restriction be worth the performance gains?
Positioning - Does pump/reservoir height within the system make a difference? Most systems have the pumps at the bottom of the case, obviously to be below the reservoir. But with the XSPC reservoir I have the option to place it anywhere minus the top two 5.25 bays in the Cosmos S case. What effect, if any does pump position have on the system?
Airflow – I will only have the side stock 54 cfm 200mm fan blowing air into the system. I would rather not blow hot air into the system. So the question is what impact will this have to the overall performance of the system?
Parallel vs. Series flow for GPUs - I can see the concern for parallel flow in a watercooling setup. I am fine running the two gpu's in series if necessary but I think the dual link looks pretty cool and makes tube management that much easier. Has anyone had any negative experiences with the dual link adapters for the heatkillers?
 
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Wow... you're basically me. Even down to having your rig in a corner of the living room.

While im in your situation, i have no water cooling experience what so ever, however from the research i've been doing, I do have two bits of information i can share with you.

Firstly, from what i've seen online, the EK Supreme HF has better performance and higher flow than the Heatkiller CPU block. I get my infromation from Skinnee.

Secondly, just a tidbit, Skinnee is doing a gtx480 gpu block roundup very soon, and im eagerly awating the results. Information Here.

Hope i can be of some help. i'm very interested in what information you uncover, along with the rest of the thread.
 
You should use 1/2" ID tubing. Not 1/4" - that's ridiculous. At least 3/8", but 1/2" and 7/16" are the only logical choices. Tygon R-3400 is great. There are some other options.

I think I'd save my money on the chipset and mosfet blocks. The UD5 already has a good heatsink, and as long as you have SOME case airflow in there, it should keep everything under control.

I'd get the EK Supreme HF.

I'd wait for tests on GTX 480 blocks, but I think I've already seen some results. I need to go check what it is that I saw - I'll post back when/if I find it.

I think Feser radiators (and Feser-ANYTHING) = overpriced. If you want the same style of radiator, then get XSPC RX radiators. They perform nearly identically. If you want to spend more, then go Thermochill (spend less? Swiftech).

DDC 3.1 (swiftech mcp350) = I assume you want these because you want a quiet system. That's fine. All the more reason to avoid the motherboard/chipset blocks though... less restriction.

Good choice on case fans. The GT-AP15 fans offer the best noise/performance compromise (IMO) right at 9.0-10.0v (multimeter). Martin's youtube reviews, and the Xbitlabs variable voltage review inspired me to try this voltage range.

I don't know about that Zalman Fan controller. I'd check whether it's a PWM-controller or a voltage-controller. PWM-controllers can make fans whine (I've heard of this with the Scythe GTs). I run my GTs on voltage-control, and they're fine.

My preferred fan-controller: Sunbeam rheobus Extreme. 6-channels, and 30w/channel of voltage control (more if you mod it). You'd only need ONE fan-controller, and you can control 6-different "zones" of fans. 30w is enough to control ALL 12 of your fans already.

The regular Sunbeam Rheobus: (4-channels x 20w) = good enough also. But the LEDs are obnoxiously bright (dim with resistor mod).

I can post back with links to substantiate my leanings. I'll try to do that a bit later.
 
I need to correct my initial post. The tubing will be 3/8 ID not 1/4 ID. My old W/C setup had 1/2 ID and the tubes just got in the way, and that was with just 4 end points. I can't imagine the headache I'd have with this setup in the small confinds of a Cosmos. You are right though 1/4 ID would be insanely restrictive. To me 3/8 is the only compromise.

Thanks to both of you for telling me about the upcoming 480 gtx waterblock roundup. I will definately hold off on any purchases until then.
 
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It turns out I'll be busy for a while, but this thread will be on my mind.

A few things to add:

- 7/16" or 1/2" ID tubing shouldn't be too difficult to handle if you use a quality tubing (like the aforementioned tygon r3400 or r3603): http://www.sidewindercomputers.com/tubing.html - I like this particular one: http://www.sidewindercomputers.com/ty1idx3odlat.html - although it features a large 3/4" OD, Tygon is relatively flexible. It won't kink as easily, and it'll allow tube-routing configurations one wouldn't even attempt with cheaper tubing. If you've already tried Tygon, then disregard.

- The case-airflow representation above is imbalanced with respect to intake/exhaust. Don't eliminate a traditional front-to-back, bottom-to-top airflow pattern yet.

- I'll admit that the side-fan opening is large enough such that adequate intake-air may just be drawn-in from there... but it'll have to flow more than the side-fan can provide. The design might just be GREAT if you could replace that side-fan with an array of MORE scythe GT fans (maybe 4 or 6 of them). That's a significant investment on just a hunch, but it almost turns the case into a giant brute-force duct... I wonder if it would work.

- I'm assuming you chose your push/pull configuration based on this: http://martin.skinneelabs.com/Radiator-Fan-Orientation-And-Shroud-Testing-Review.html - but adding ~15mm of separation between fan and radiator tends to reduce noise a bit. You have the option to run single-fan + shroud to save $ and reduce noise. If you don't want to fab your own shroud, then the clear rationale for your decision is that the cost of push/pull fans isn't much more than the shroud anyway.

Also... Scythe GT fans can be purchased here: http://www.koolertek.com/computer-p...0mm-Fan-1850-RPM-D1225C12B5AP-15-184p1390.htm
and here: http://www.sidewindercomputers.com/scge120mmsic2.html

I like sidewinder, but koolertek has had some sales for as low as $11-$12, and they seem to be a good store.
 
I had thought about using only one fan with a shroud in a Pull configuration. But I would end up buying a 12mm thick fan, gutting it, then using it for the shroud. I'm lazy like that. The cost would be around 9-10 bucks per fan. I figured if I was paying that much for fans, regardless of what they were being used for that I would go with the better performing option. However, I do remember reading about the acoustic benefits of shrouds. I may end up going that route after all considering my main focus is on noise reduction.

On the tubing issue, I used Tygon 1/2 ID on my last build. I like the stuff and will definately go with tygon again. Considering Archmage's post I am considering not placing waterblocks on the chipset and mosfets. This would take out some major restriction from the loop and allow me to get rid of one of the radiators. Also I could use the radiator's space on the front panel to push air into the case improving on the limited air flow.

Also do the 360mm XSPC rads fit inside the Cosmos S? I took another look at Martin's work and saw that the performance at the fan speed I will be using is similar to the TFC's which is undoubtedly why Archmage recommended them.
 
More for you: (and obviously numbers are not directly comparable between tests)

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=250336 - Gabe's (representing swiftech) numbers on the swiftech Evga Hydro GTX 480 Full-cover GPU block

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=250149 - EK GTX 480 user numbers

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=250163 - ongoing GTX 480 block review thread

http://67.90.82.13/forums/showthread.php?t=248660 - evilclocker has DangerDen GTX 480 block temp numbers. He claims to have the Koolance block too.

http://www.overclock.net/water-cooling/712672-eastys-road-nv-gtx-480-sli-2.html - GTX 480 temps using swiftech mcw60 GPU-only block, leaving the stock ram-plate-sink in place (swiftech has an mcw80 now though).

On Radiators:

http://skinneelabs.com/triplesv2.html?page=4 - skinnee's triple radiator roundup. Observe bottom 2 graphs

http://www.realredraider.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=4126 - XSPC (better <1200rpm) vs Thermochill (better >1600rpm)

http://www.realredraider.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=4924 - another radiator roundup

EK Supreme HF reviewed here: http://skinneelabs.com/ek-supreme-hf.html?page=5 (best tested to date): http://www.performance-pcs.com/cata...oduct_info&cPath=59_498_490&products_id=27631 ($80 on sale for the GOLD bling version, $85 regular).

PUMPS:

http://martin.skinneelabs.com/Danger-Den_CPX-Pro-Pump-Review.html - another option for your pump. It's quiet, cheap, and outflows a stock DDC 3.2 - http://www.performance-pcs.com/cata...e=product_info&cPath=59_201&products_id=24272

DDC pumps benefit from aftermarket pump-tops: (EK X-top v2): http://www.performance-pcs.com/cata...oduct_info&cPath=59_439_770&products_id=24825 + here is the res-top: http://www.performance-pcs.com/cata...oduct_info&cPath=59_439_770&products_id=22868

http://www.realredraider.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=6340 - another DDC pump top comparison, EK on top again

http://www.realredraider.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=5128 - res-top comparison, he likes EK

http://www.sidewindercomputers.com/reservoirs.html - standalone reservoir selection. IandH is good too.

Fan Controllers:

http://www.realredraider.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=17289 - discussion on PWM vs Voltage control on 2nd page.

Parallel GPU loop discussion/test: http://www.realredraider.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=6455
http://www.realredraider.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=25757 - discusses EK GPU-loop bridges, but a parallel vs serial discussion is in there too + some numbers. Don't mind their language... lot of experience over there.

Tubing: http://www.realredraider.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=25015 - discussion says tygon r3400 first, then primoflex pro lrt. I'd take a different tygon (r3603) before the LRT.

Edit: And I don't know what will and won't work in your Cosmos S case. You'd have to take a look at manufacturer measurements, and tube-routing. About the fan-shroud... well... do whatever you need to do. Fans in close proximity to any restriction = noise. I guess you can experiment to determine if it's enough extra noise to warrant the effort of fabbing up shrouds.

Edit 2: Just a note: DDC pumps can be voltage-controlled. I kept my DDC 3.2 pumps at 9v at idle (Don't go lower than that according to: http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=250382 ). - Koolance's pmp-400 (sold at perfpcs) is a rebranded DDC 3.25.
 
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Go with Swiftech or XSPC for radiators and make sure to get XSPC or EK rev 2 tops for those pumps.

EK makes better blocks than DD IMO, but I think you're ok eather way.
 
I finally found some info to put the 1/2 ID vs 3/8 ID vs 1/4 ID tubing size temperature impact to bed...
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=147767

I think the old days of highly restrictive waterblocks and radiators, along with weak pumps is over. With modern watercooling equipment flow isn't as big a deal as it was say 5 -10 years ago when people were using things like car radiators.

I will definately be going with 3/8 ID for this build.
 
I think I have decided against all the fans in push/pull without shrouds. A friend of mine sent me some audio clips of his single 120 BIX radiator in both push pull without a shroud and pull with a shroud (a gutted 120mmx25mm fan). Pretty big difference IMO. Since noise control is my biggest concern I have to take the minor performance hit and do without the extra fans. Plus, doing as my friend did and gutting a cheap 120mm fan and using it for a shroud should prove to be less expensive than I anticipated which makes up for some of the performance loss.

I didn't include this in my first post but aside from my primary goal of noise reduction I am also taking the total "value" of the system/components into consideration. By value I mean price vs performance, finding that sweet spot between the two. Overclocking is secondary, however considering many folks are getting 30% overclocks with their 480's on water it's hard to deny the value of putting some extra money into higher performance. Again its all about finding that sweet spot.

I can't decide wheter or not to drop one of the 3 single 120mm rads to be used with my CPU loop. I can get a 3.6 overclock with my processor on Air. And TRUE heatsinks only dissipate 200w of heat. Two XSPC radiators should be able to dissipate close to 300-400w of heat with the GentleTyphoons. I am just wondering if 4 Ghz is within reach with just two rads? If so, what change in temp can I expect? 10 degrees? 15? I'd like to keep it under 10 if possible so anyone with an i7 on two rads please chime in to give your thoughts!
 
Just ordered my EVGA cards! Now if only the 480gtx waterblock review would hurry up and get made!!!!
 
If anyone comes across an mcw80 review please post a link to it here. Considering value (price vs. performance) is my second highest concern after noise I really think an improved swiftech mcw60 may be the default winner. The mcw60 is a solid performer as it is. An improved version would no doubt allow it to be within a few percentages of the latest and greatest full block waterblocks. The real benefit would be the mcw80's reusability. Knowing I wouldn't have to purchase another waterblock for a very very long time is appealing to me.

CPU waterblocks are moderately priced so replacing them is no biggie in the grand scheme of things. But full coverage waterblocks are so damn expensive. Only having to upgrade the RAM/Vreg heatsink for the card is way more inexpensive.

I am anxious to see what kind of performance the mcw80 will bring. If it is within 10% of the competition I will most likely go with swiftech.
 
With the GTX 480 there is a heat spreader over the core and MCW-60, MCW-80 not really gonna matter. There isn't direct die contact - even if there was like my HD5870 I really dont see what another degree or two is gonna do. My load temps with my HD5870 @ 1Ghz core and MCW-60 was 36 deg C. Does it really matter if you squeeze one more deg off the GPU? A quad core CPU, yes a better block would be worth it, but a GPU, I really dont see the point they are all within 1-2 deg of each other and the temps on a GPU are usually so manageable its not like 1-2deg more is gonna matter.

I've got an MCW-60 but I need the G80 plate for my GTX 480. I ordered it and am waiting on it now.
 
I guess the real question is how much of an impact will the limited ram/voltreg cooling have for a swiftech setup as compared to a full coverage block?

The swiftech solution will most likely be a contender for high performance cooling of the core gpu itself. However without the added benefit of water on the voltreg/ram you will probably have to scale back on the overclocking.

With a cosmos s and the 200mm fan blowing 150 cfm directly on the gpu area I shouldn't have any issues keeping the ram or voltregs relatively cool at stock with simple ramsinks. But I think a full coverage heatsink would be necessary to push the limits of the card.
 
Looking at the interior of my case tonight I realized that I have only 75mm of space between the roof of the case and the top of my motherboard. There are many radiators that fit inside the Cosmos S. But the TFC and XSPC rads are hella thick at 50+ mm. This makes using shrouds to minimize the fan noise difficult.

The space outside the aluminum casing but before the grill on top can barely hold 35mm fans. So if I were to place the shrouds outside the frame I may have to mod the case somewhat, and I would really rather not do that.

The other option is to consider a less thick radiator. According to the radiator roundup provided above the Swiftech radiator is a solid performer being only .2 degrees off the TFC performance at 1450rpm and .7 degrees off at 1800rpm for a 463w heat load. This is the rpm range I will be using in my build with the GentleTyphoons.

The extra space available, should I use the Swiftech rads, would allow me to use a shroud and keep the noise down. Plus, the added benefit of being the least expensive rads in consideration means I don't have to break the bank.

Anyone have any serious issues with Swiftech rads? I can't seem to find anything online except complaints about paint chipping and fragile fins. Any input would be appreciated.
 
Swiftech rads are fine.

They're not as pretty, but they're reliable - there's nothing at all wrong with them.

I think the Magicool Elegant copper radiators are pretty good too (34mm thickness, just like swiftech, but longer due to integrated reservoir system): http://www.realredraider.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=4924 and here: http://eiskaltmacher.de/portal/inde...=view&id=1177&Itemid=53&limit=1&limitstart=10 - translate german

http://www.performance-pcs.com/cata...t_info&manufacturers_id=145&products_id=23793 - Elegant...

http://forums.guru3d.com/showthread.php?p=3428829 - Here is the complaint thread about them... probably cracked the polycarbonate due to use of non-standard coolant though.

http://67.90.82.13/forums/showthread.php?t=210484 - and there is the XS thread about them... the EK guy seems to like them.

Swiftech is probably the best deal overall.
 
I spoke with the Swiftech sales rep today. It looks like the MCW-80 is officially for sale on their site. I was informed that shipments were going out to resellers as of yesterday! Woot
 
I had a chance to spin up the new 480 GPUs in my rig last night for a few tests. Futuremark results showed a 30% increase over my 280 GTX SLI setup.

The interesting part is the power consumption numbers. My system with the old 280s inside idles at 245w. With the 480s it idles at 250w! The 480s peaked at around 650w during the futuremark run which was around 50w more than my 280s.

Not a huge deal if you ask me.

The big shocker was the noise. OMG these things are loud. My 280s were enough to get the nod from the wife to watercool. After last night my wife said "so when are you going to watercool your system again?" Hehe.

The temps were only slightly above what my 280s were with one exception. My motherboard requires me to keep the two cards together so the top card has to work extra hard for the air going in. Temps showed a whopping 5 degrees difference at idle and 7 degrees at load. My top 280 in sli kept within 3 degrees of the lower card at load and idle.

Suprisingly when I ran furmark my 280s were the losers. I shut it off when they hit 100 degrees but the closest the 480s got was 97 degrees for the top card.

Regardless, I really need to put these babys on some water!
 
After reading many reviews and not getting a straight answer to the question of "is two single 120 rads enough for an overclocked i7" I think I need to ask a different question to get the desired outcome.

So would be a good idea or not to keep the GPUs and CPU in a single loop considering my planned setup?

Right off the bat, I understand that you can achieve better overclocks on your CPU if the loop is dedicated. But would there really be any ill effect in my system. Exact same components (3 single 120 rads and 1 360 rad w/two pumps) would be used. I had originaly planned to put only two rads on the CPU and put the GPUs on one of the 120s and the 360. By my math the rads will dissipate approximately 1000w of heat somewhere in between the GentleTyphoon ap14 and ap15 speeds for a moderate 10 degree change in temp. An overclocked/overvolted CPU can put out around 150w-200w of heat while the GPUs will put out 250w stock and probably 300+ overclocked/overvolted.

I think the number of rads for the total amount of heat being dumped is appropriate for this setup but I am wondering if I am wasting 100w of cooling power on the CPU loop that could be better spent on the GPU loop. At the same time I know that CPU overclocking is more sensitive to the change in temp and that the GPUs are designed to run at higher temps so a 10 degree limit may be overkill.

So all things being equal what would you all do?
 
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After not getting any responses I decided to keep it simple and stick with one loop. I really like the idea of having two pumps in a single loop just in case one dies on me. Plus keeping everything in one loop allows for less tubing which directly translates to better managability and a cleaner look.

I purchased 2 swiftech 350 12w pumps (can be modded to 18w if necessary) 1 swiftech 320 rad and 3 swiftech 120 rads, 6 gentletyphoons, 2 mcw80s for the gpus (taking a blind leap of faith here), an EK Supreme HF waterblock for the cpu, and an EK dual 5.25 bay res. I will be using 3/8 ID 1/2 OD tygon tubing. Koolance quick disconnects to and from the res, Bitspower angle adapters for tight spaces and DD fatboy barbs for everything else.

My only real concern now is the direction of water flow. To keep things simple I plan on reversing the direction of waterflow in my loop.

Res -> Dual Pumps -> 120 Res -> 120 Res -> GPU 2 -> GPU 1 -> 120 Res -> 320 Res -> CPU

Temperatures should be in check for all heat sources but its the flow/head pressure that I am concerned about. Having the CPU as the last item in the loop means less pressure and thus lower performance. The EK waterblock does well with average flow and head pressure so I "should" be ok. If not I will have to mod my pumps to the 355 variation. Something I wasn't wanting to do because of the added noise.

Once the components get here I will start a work log to share the experience.
 
Why are you getting three 120mm rads? I would get two triples, It'll probably even save you money, and you will have more heat dissipation area.
 
0xygenthief said:
After reading many reviews and not getting a straight answer to the question of "is two single 120 rads enough for an overclocked i7" I think I need to ask a different question to get the desired outcome.
Click to expand...

Straight answer is yes, infact 1 is enough. Take the Corsair H50 for example, very very good at cooling overclocked i7's past 4GHz and it's only a H50. A decent custom loop would be better and 1 120 rad will still be enough with a 1150rpm Gentle Typhoon fan, it would be very quiet too. 2 120's would easily be enough.
 
King Icewind said:
Why are you getting three 120mm rads? I would get two triples, It'll probably even save you money, and you will have more heat dissipation area.
Click to expand...

I would have loved to get another single 320 rad in place of the 3 120s. However, I am limited by the space available to me inside my case. The cosmos S has a place for a single 3X120 rad on top but that's about it. Some slight modding and I will be able to add 3 more 120 rads, one on the rear exhaust, another in place of the hd tray, and a third on top of the bottom 120mm inlet beside the PSU.

Thankfully, with Swiftech rads I am only spending around $35 per 120 rad so the total cost is still less than a TFC tripple rad! ;)
 
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