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Input Lag - A Discussion

There is some thought that occurred to me know but I don’t know how exactly to describe it
Anyway I’ll try…

The scenario….
The game: Counter Strike Source (or any other FPS)
The map: Italy
The opposite team: Counter Terrorist
The Monitor: some LCD
The input Lag: 10 seconds
Ping: zero

Let’s suppose that there is some Counter Terrorist guy walking in front of you at the speed of 10cm/second
So he walks 1 meter every 10 seconds

Action…
You saw him, you aimed at the very center of his head, you pulled the trigger
But you had no ammo so you pressed R (for reload) then aimed again and pulled the trigger

If there was really 10 seconds lag in the process the bullet will hit the exact place that you aimed at but after the terrorist goes 1 meter far from that place

But this didn’t happen cuz when you clicked the left mouse bottom the mouse sent its signal to the motherboard then processor then bla bla bla
And at last the monitor only made what you did visible and gave you the result

OH wait the terrorist is walking and his location on your monitor should = his actual location + 10 seconds, which means that it’s right that your bullet hit the actual place you aimed at, but this place is 10 meters far from the terrorist

Damn I’m still confused :(

Edit: I looked through a lot of videos on YouTube regarding this but didn’t really notice a big worthy difference between LCD’s, though it’s obvious between TFT and CRT
and I still don’t think it worth’s specially if the user goes for a good LCD like 226BW
unless he plays some very demanding game like that hokey game others mentioned here
and he should be a master in it cuz it’ll seem ridiculous if you where whining about the LCD input Lag while u’ll still be a n00b player on a CRT :)
 
Suggested reading:
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/other/display/lcd-parameters.html


Magicians and politicians use slight of hand and distraction to hide what they're doing and take focus away from what really matters. My guess is some of the threads on various web sites are to create the same affect. If you make them worry about something they can't see, perhaps they'll ignore what they can.

Reminds me of some of the forums for autos. When I bought a vehicle a few years ago multiple messages plastered all over about only getting 20-30k miles from tires, brakes wore out every 30k miles, on and on.....same things repeated over and over until a reader might believe from the sheer volume of messages it is true. I bought the vehicle which was long #1 rated (hence the jealous competitors) and got 82k out of the OEM tires (and I abuse them) at 90k today I haven't changed brake pads or had any of the problems mentioned repeatedly on internet forums. I do however have the high pitched whine that appears in many of these vehicles that is sporadically documented by owners but the OEM has never heard of. Guess marketing remains the same regardless of product.
 
The Samsung 206BW is meant to have zero input lag according to those comparison charts on digitalversus.
 
All I can say is that in games that I play, input lag is a concern.

In Street Fighter 3, DDR, Guitar Freaks, Beatmania, Marvel vs Capcom, Unreal Tournament 3.

Let me describe some situations where I have been affected by input lag, some that are uncorrectable, some that are correctable with practice.

Between friends, we sometimes fire up a good match of SF3 when they are over. If you know SF3, you will know that unlike previous versions, this one is much more offense oriented to the point that it becomes a mind game as to what the person may or may not do and you can counter or "parry" depending on what the situation demands. A lot of parrying instances only have 2-3 frames in which you can counter a move. That is timing on a precise level. Because of the unpredictable nature of this game, you are hunting for that 1 or 2 frame that indicates a move and must then react to that in the span of the other 2-3 frames. With just 1 frame of lag, that window diminishes greatly. Add 2 frames and the window is closed on a lot of moves. The difference is on a CRT we can play an all out match which shows the difference in skill levels, on any other screen, it's not possible.

In twitch shooters, lag has a large effect on precision aiming, especially sniping. you have a few frames of opportunity to catch someone from a distance. Thankfully though because of lag due to internet connections, most game's prediction code are very good at compensating for the lag. Though it does not account for the visual lag you see, at least at a constant 1fps or 16.7 ms you can think 1 frame ahead.

The issue is that on a lot of screens, it's not consistent, sometimes 1 frame, sometimes less than a frame, sometimes 2 frames... It's drastically altered the way I play to the point I almost omit the concept of the sniping and just go more spray and pray then trade blows in close combat. My previous style of play would have me go long range weapons, then mid range, or spray mid range, get 1 or 2 long range shots in then go in close for the kill. In a lot of twitch games I could maintain a good 3 or 4:1 kill death ratio, but because of the style change forced by my screen, I've been reduced to 2:1 or more 1:1.

Timing games are the brutal ones, try playing DDR on heavy mode and go for a A or double AA status. Very hard to do, let alone when your song and your visual cues are off a frame. Beatmania is very unforgiving, it's either good, great or miss and if you don't hit 80% of the notes, you fail. The upper difficulties are near impossible unless you memorize the song and every note, but each note or sequence of notes is tough to memorize due to sheer number.
 
Based on Firas' chart, the Samsung 305T 's lag is very close to that of my Dell 2407. If I don't notice the lag on the 2407, I bet I won't see it on the 305T, either.
 
Slade said:
All I can say is that in games that I play, input lag is a concern.

In Street Fighter 3, DDR, Guitar Freaks, Beatmania, Marvel vs Capcom, Unreal Tournament 3.

Let me describe some situations where I have been affected by input lag, some that are uncorrectable, some that are correctable with practice.

Between friends, we sometimes fire up a good match of SF3 when they are over. If you know SF3, you will know that unlike previous versions, this one is much more offense oriented to the point that it becomes a mind game as to what the person may or may not do and you can counter or "parry" depending on what the situation demands. A lot of parrying instances only have 2-3 frames in which you can counter a move. That is timing on a precise level. Because of the unpredictable nature of this game, you are hunting for that 1 or 2 frame that indicates a move and must then react to that in the span of the other 2-3 frames. With just 1 frame of lag, that window diminishes greatly. Add 2 frames and the window is closed on a lot of moves. The difference is on a CRT we can play an all out match which shows the difference in skill levels, on any other screen, it's not possible.

In twitch shooters, lag has a large effect on precision aiming, especially sniping. you have a few frames of opportunity to catch someone from a distance. Thankfully though because of lag due to internet connections, most game's prediction code are very good at compensating for the lag. Though it does not account for the visual lag you see, at least at a constant 1fps or 16.7 ms you can think 1 frame ahead.

The issue is that on a lot of screens, it's not consistent, sometimes 1 frame, sometimes less than a frame, sometimes 2 frames... It's drastically altered the way I play to the point I almost omit the concept of the sniping and just go more spray and pray then trade blows in close combat. My previous style of play would have me go long range weapons, then mid range, or spray mid range, get 1 or 2 long range shots in then go in close for the kill. In a lot of twitch games I could maintain a good 3 or 4:1 kill death ratio, but because of the style change forced by my screen, I've been reduced to 2:1 or more 1:1.

Timing games are the brutal ones, try playing DDR on heavy mode and go for a A or double AA status. Very hard to do, let alone when your song and your visual cues are off a frame. Beatmania is very unforgiving, it's either good, great or miss and if you don't hit 80% of the notes, you fail. The upper difficulties are near impossible unless you memorize the song and every note, but each note or sequence of notes is tough to memorize due to sheer number.
Click to expand...

Would the 226BW be enough 4 U?
 
SLADE - I know how input lag can affect gameplay severly with Fighting games and FPS shooters.
Especially with fighting games, they are 1/60th frame based(unless on Turbo) and need immediate responces to player inputs.
I honestly believe a ~2ms compromise with a VX922 or 226BW is perfectly acceptable, thats 1/8th OF A FRAME when we're trying to perfect our 'just frame moves' that are 16.66ms timings. Theres no way you can notice a 1/8th frame delay on your inputs.

FYI, I use a VX922 and am very happy with it. Infact I don't want to upgrade to a 24" because none of them come close to VX922, 226BW level of responce times.

P.S. do you know ggpo.net? If you play Marvel vs Capcom definately check it out It allows lagless online play against human opponents.
 
Thing is all the games he plays are console games (unless he uses a pc for UT3). Remember what Benny said earlier in the thread? If not heres a refresh

Toompra seemed to be using it with a xbox 360 running the game at a resolution non native to the monitor, so there will be scaling (and maybe analog digital conversion) by the unit usually adding at least one frame of lag.
I'm guessing but if shooters seemed to be fine, they were probably connected to the PC with ether native res or graphics card scaling, the 226BW doesn't lag in this case.
Click to expand...

So if he was to hook up his console/s to a 226bw or vx922 he would likely notice the added lag with his games like i did with nhl08 on the 226bw. I am not making it up, it was there and it was noticeable.

I wish i could do a test to prove it but i don't see how, i can borrow the 226bw i sold to my dad and i can put it side by side with a CRT but obviously since the device i'd be using is an xbox 360 i can't put them in clone mode or use the lag test programs.
 
By the way, I took that online reaction time test, and my result was 0.29s on average, so 290ms. I do not notice any input lag on the Samsung 204T.
 
Cyrilix said:
By the way, I took that online reaction time test, and my result was 0.29s on average, so 290ms. I do not notice any input lag on the Samsung 204T.
Click to expand...

I don't know how valid these things are. I googled human reaction time & there are a lot of these tests. This site has a nice spread of stats:
http://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime/stats.php

I tried both the test on the above site & the one ShoeLace linked originally. On both I can hit 180-185ms pretty consistently if I concentrate & use my mouse button to click. Notably clicking using the keyboard (Raptor K1 gaming) the key stroke is longer & adds consistently 15-20ms. I am running the test on my HZ26W LCD

Also I noted on the leader board commments:http://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime/allresults.php some users doing the test with CRT & LCD, LCD being 30ms slower!

Lastly I don't need to look at the numbers to tell my time, if my concentration slips I know when I'm slow & can pinpoint the ones which were fast at approx. 185ms & the ones that were slow at >210ms. The 20-30ms difference is clearly felt.
 
Hmm the best i seem to be able to get is 203ms, and thats on a CRT. Though i am tired so i'll try it again later when i'm fully alert.
 
Cool, I made the top ten and I am an old guy (40), plus 4 of the top ten is the same guy.
http://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime/allresults.php

My average was 177ms on my CRT, 194ms on my fairly quick LCD (8ms TN), and 220ms left handed+LCD(just for fun).

I wonder how bad it would have been on my Dell 2405, that thing felt like everything was moving through molasses to me, it must have had pretty bad lag, because I don't even feel the lag on my TN screen vs the CRT, but I really felt it on the Dell 2405. If you are really consistent this might be a better way to test input lag on screens, not to mention mice as well, this way you can fine tune everything for your competetive gaming sessions.

I wonder what a couple of drinks would do...
 
Averaged around 210ms and every now and then I'll hit one in the 180s on a Gateway FHD2400.
 
I'm already accustomed to using a 24 inch, the resolution I need while programming, as for gaming, yep they are console games, having 4 or 5 people crammed around my PC is not exactly ideal.

On a CRT trying that human benchmark I pulled off an average 179ms, as low as 144 and as high as 194. My LG screen's best for myself was a 194 with an avg of 200...
 
Snowdog said:
Cool, I made the top ten and I am an old guy (40), plus 4 of the top ten is the same guy.
http://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime/allresults.php

My average was 177ms on my CRT, 194ms on my fairly quick LCD (8ms TN), and 220ms left handed+LCD(just for fun).

I wonder how bad it would have been on my Dell 2405, that thing felt like everything was moving through molasses to me, it must have had pretty bad lag, because I don't even feel the lag on my TN screen vs the CRT, but I really felt it on the Dell 2405. If you are really consistent this might be a better way to test input lag on screens, not to mention mice as well, this way you can fine tune everything for your competetive gaming sessions.

I wonder what a couple of drinks would do...
Click to expand...

91290553vk6.jpg


that was my second shot :D

I scored 165 now, sh1t I should go for CRT now :)
 
With regards to the fastest human reaction time being in the 130+ ms range... This really doesn't stop the conversation about if input lag matters. Due to the fact that no matter how quickly one reacts, their counterpart is getting a head start on the reaction of seeing you.

I think this conversation may be over rated. It really does depend on your sensitivity and perception.

I started this thread 4 months ago to see how it would go and in the time since I have consistently put up really good scores in COD4 after I stopped thinking about input lag. Also, my little brother has come over (and I have observed him play COD4 many times) and his results were great too.

This on a monitor (275t) that I have setup against a CRT and recorded 45+ ms of lag...

Score like this are achievable if I play smart on a map and are aggressive, and I do not snipe nor camp particularly

shot0001.jpg
 
If I got 169.4 on the humanbenchmark site with a MVA panel LCD (ViewSonic VX2025), does that mean I would get about 129 if I used a TN panel? I don't know how much lag my monitor has.
 
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