I'm really worried about the future for hardware enthusiasts

Aquineas

Limp Gawd
Joined
Mar 2, 2004
Messages
214
I'm worried because AMD's survival is vital to the consumer, and for the first time I'm wondering whether they'll survive. Now some of their most recent horrifying quarterly results come from a one-time write-off they took because they over-paid for ATI.

But seriously folks, whether you're an AMD or an Intel enthusiast.. It will be better for all of us if AMD not only survives, but prospers. If AMD doesn't survive, then the prices for CPUs will most certainly go up, and probably by an appreciable amount. If AMD doesn't survive, there's a risk of a lapse in innovation. If it weren't for AMD, we probably wouldn't have x86-64 or hardware buffer overflow protection, for example, and whether or not we had multi-core by this point would be highly debatable.

Regardless of the industry or a particular company, when there is no competition, it leads to complacency and arrogance. In the case of Intel, when they had no competition, they did things like refuse (initially anyway) to fix a fundamental flaw in their processor unless you proved you used your processor for floating point (wtf? Who doesn't use their CPU for floating point?) The above isn't a criticism for them having errata in their CPU, it's a criticism for trying to get out of doing the right thing and replacing the part, no questions asked (this is ultimately what they did, but uh, why the initial hesitation? They were making a couple of billion a quarter in profits.) Look at Nvidia, who only a month ago was asking you to pay $650 for their top of the line graphics board. With competition they've already dropped the price almost 25 percent in a month.

Listen fanboys of both sides, I'm not knocking Intel. They have done a helluva job lately, and have been firing on all cylinders, pretty much since Banias. I remember seeing reviews of Dothan back in 2004. At that time, Dothan was not only in striking distance of the K8, but in some cases exceeding performance of the single core K8. I said to myself, "oh boy.. AMD had better have something up its sleeve because the onslaught is coming." It seemed clear to me at the time that the only thing keeping AMD in the game was the memory controller on the CPU. Fast forward to 2008, four years later, and we've seen only tweaks to K8 single-core performance.

Now there has been some innovation, to be sure. Multi-core was an amazing innovation, but I think it actually clouded the issue for a while. People got so excited about multi-core; sales were brisk, people were happy. But there were dark clouds on the horizon, and in 2006, the storm named Conroe arrived in force.

There was also innovation in terms of virtualization enhancements as well as floating-point enhancements.

Since then, it's been what I would call a good-old-fashioned-ass-whoopin'. We're now two years into the Core2 era, and Intel's next generation is about to be released which looks better, stronger, and faster. From the early reports, Deneb looks like a step in the right direction and would have been competitive with Penryn. The problem is it AMD needed to aim beyond Penryn. What happened AMD? Were your design teams that bad? If so, then why couldn't you just hired the Montalvo design team or even looked across town in Austin at Centaur?

It's not all gloom and doom. ATI has finally gotten their ducks in a row and 4850 and 4870 boards have become the "new 'in' thing." This certainly will help. But AMD needs to be in development of a core that is IPC competitive with whatever's coming after Nehalem. They won't last long bleeding they way they are, and if they do in fact go under, it will be bad for all of us...
 
I'm worried about ATI being dragged down with this sinking ship.
 
I don't know why they don't license some IP from IBM (if possible), who has been making chips in the 4-5 Ghz range lately. Mind you, they have a longer pipeline (12 vs 15), and much of the out-of-order functionality was removed, and they are sever chips so I don't if manufacturing in high volumes with cheap prices is possible with these IBM processors, but regardless, they seem to be ahead of AMD here. At the very least, they have SMT which is something AMD could certainly use, especially now with Nehalem bringing back hyperthreading. But AMD doesn't seem to have any interest in that, and I think it's really going to hurt them.
 
At first I was afraid... I was Petrified..

Kept thinking I could never live without AMD at our side...
 
IBM has its own problems manufacturing Power 6. Due to the much, much higher prices of the system (which BTW IBM sells everything: CPU, hardware, software, support), it can live with very poor yields. AMD already pays IBM about 10% of it's yearly MPU R&D budget, and AMD is getting a good deal from that arrangement, at least as far as sticking with SOI hasn't really gained the company much in terms of frequency scaling or lower power consumption.
 
Listen, even if AMD does die and go belly up at some point another company will stand up and take their place. That is the way of things.
 
amd is not going anywhere. i have been a follower since 1998 and they have been fine.
 
amd is not going anywhere. i have been a follower since 1998 and they have been fine.

Their financial outlook hasn't always been that great, but AMD is a survivor. They won't go down easily.
 
Listen, even if AMD does die and go belly up at some point another company will stand up and take their place. That is the way of things.

Maybe one day VIA will step up to the gaming/power user/workstation level.
 
Maybe one day VIA will step up to the gaming/power user/workstation level.

Until they throw the money into serious research and development it won't happen. If AMD dies though I'm sure some company somewhere will recognize that people will be foaming at the mouth for a choice other than Intel and they'll hopefully take a chance and try to sieze that market.

If nothing else the competition is what keeps Intel in line price wise. It also keeps innovation moving forward. Without it the Core 2 Duo would never have been created and they'd likely still be milking the Netburst architecture to some degree.
 
Until they throw the money into serious research and development it won't happen. If AMD dies though I'm sure some company somewhere will recognize that people will be foaming at the mouth for a choice other than Intel and they'll hopefully take a chance and try to sieze that market.

If nothing else the competition is what keeps Intel in line price wise. It also keeps innovation moving forward. Without it the Core 2 Duo would never have been created and they'd likely still be milking the Netburst architecture to some degree.


+1,

The only thing that keeps a whole lot of people out of the CPU business right now is the x86 license.

If AMD Tanks, that will leave intel with 95% of the x86 market and a geninue position for an Anti-trust suite to bust the x86 license scheme up. This will actually open the doors for a lot of start-up and old-hat companies to jump on board..

In some ways, if AMD goes down, it will open the doors for a lot more competition.
 
AMD used to suck.. Then they came out with one good design, the K7.. Since then, not much has changed.. Current Athlon X2's are like two Athlons and an integrated memory controller, plus a few tweaks. Phenom is like two Athlon X2's plus even more tweaks. They need to come out with something completely new, because Phenom is starting to look like Netburst.
 
I remember reading a few articles that few companies might or should consider buying AMD.

Like Nvidia for example although they can't afford it. Samsung was another company but x86 license cannot transfer to foreigners. And there is IBM who can buy AMD with pocket change.

If I remember correctly (which I could be wrong):
AMD: $5 billion
Nvidia: $4 billion
Intel: $55 billion
IBM: $150 billion

I wonder how things would turn out if IBM buys AMD.
 
I remember reading a few articles that few companies might or should consider buying AMD.

Like Nvidia for example although they can't afford it. Samsung was another company but x86 license cannot transfer to foreigners. And there is IBM who can buy AMD with pocket change.

If I remember correctly (which I could be wrong):
AMD: $5 billion
Nvidia: $4 billion
Intel: $55 billion
IBM: $150 billion

I wonder how things would turn out if IBM buys AMD.

IBM has shifted focus from hardware to software, and to support solutions like oursourced IT support and help desk solutions for some time now. I doubt they are all that interested in buying a company with such a shaky financial track record. Sure AMD has a lot of brand recognition and they now own ATI which is a good thing, but I don't think IBM is really looking to buy them.
 
Could the use of Hafnium, that made the Core2 possible, be a real hold back for AMD since they dont have access to the patented use of it in the CPUs?
 
I remember reading a few articles that few companies might or should consider buying AMD.

Like Nvidia for example although they can't afford it. Samsung was another company but x86 license cannot transfer to foreigners. And there is IBM who can buy AMD with pocket change.

If I remember correctly (which I could be wrong):
AMD: $5 billion
Nvidia: $4 billion
Intel: $55 billion
IBM: $150 billion

I wonder how things would turn out if IBM buys AMD.

More like :

AMD $3B
Nvidia $6B
Intel $110
IBM $170

Why should IBM buy AMD ?

IBM transformed itself from a HW company to a services one.They couldn't care less about HW ; 90% of the money comes from services and support.This will only increase in the future , there's where the added value is.
In fact , IBM losses money on HW but compensates on SW and support.

I ask again ? Why should they buy AMD? There's no sane reason to do that.AMD is a money losing business with huge debts and in chaos.They need huge amounts of money to stay in the race ; new fabs and new designs.Even so , success is far from guaranteed.

Did I mention AMD's main competitor is Intel ? The most profitable chip company in the world , with $40B revenue , $8B net profit and 80k employees ?

IBM's board isn't stupid ; sooner or later they will completely dump their FABs and low end HW.At best they will retain in house design for higher end stuff and use a foundry.
 
More like :

AMD $3B
Nvidia $6B
Intel $110
IBM $170

Why should IBM buy AMD ?

IBM transformed itself from a HW company to a services one.They couldn't care less about HW ; 90% of the money comes from services and support.This will only increase in the future , there's where the added value is.
In fact , IBM losses money on HW but compensates on SW and support.

I ask again ? Why should they buy AMD? There's no sane reason to do that.AMD is a money losing business with huge debts and in chaos.They need huge amounts of money to stay in the race ; new fabs and new designs.Even so , success is far from guaranteed.

Did I mention AMD's main competitor is Intel ? The most profitable chip company in the world , with $40B revenue , $8B net profit and 80k employees ?

IBM's board isn't stupid ; sooner or later they will completely dump their FABs and low end HW.At best they will retain in house design for higher end stuff and use a foundry.

Exactly.
 
I remember reading a few articles that few companies might or should consider buying AMD.

Like Nvidia for example although they can't afford it. Samsung was another company but x86 license cannot transfer to foreigners. And there is IBM who can buy AMD with pocket change.

If I remember correctly (which I could be wrong):
AMD: $5 billion
Nvidia: $4 billion
Intel: $55 billion
IBM: $150 billion

I wonder how things would turn out if IBM buys AMD.

I don't have a source on hand but I am pretty sure Intel is marching towards 150B territory and AMD has falled under 4B with the recent ATI writeoffs. Sorta scary when #2 is almost 40x smaller than #1. Though it is also rather impressive that #2 has, on more than one occassion, handed #1 it's own ass in performance (but never market share sadly).
 
Sure other companies could step up to compete if AMD disappears. But how long will that take? How long before they have something competitive? How long will it take to get over misinformation/brand hump took AMD years to get over? HOW LONG MUST WE SUFFER? :p
 
AMD's market cap is $2.86B at today's closing share price. Intel's market cap is a little over $109B.

Today Intel announced results and beat estimates by $0.03/share, came up a little short on gross margins and reported 25% higher net income YoY ($1.6B profit in Q2'08). It may be good or bad news for AMD's results coming Thursday.

In any case, AMD should have been cutting costs 2 years ago instead of mocking Intel about it. In addition to a strong product line up, Intel has many cost advantages over AMD due to an orderly series of cost cutting that AMD is now scrambling to do.
 
Sure other companies could step up to compete if AMD disappears. But how long will that take? How long before they have something competitive? How long will it take to get over misinformation/brand hump took AMD years to get over? HOW LONG MUST WE SUFFER? :p

Well AMD isn't over the brand hump yet. They were getting their with the Athlon 64 and Athlon X2. Since the Core 2 Duo and Quad's came out they've been sliding back. Especially with the Phenom processor being as lackluster as it is.

It could very well be years before a company could come along to seriously compete with Intel even if AMD dies. However that may not take as long as you think.
 
As far as new companies taking AMD's place should they go under, honestly how many people are going to convince a board of directors to compete with Intel? We'll ignore for a moment the $2+ billion fab cost for a moment and assume that they'll use TMSC or Chartered or someone like that... This industry has a very high barrier to entry. Sun might do it, now that they've bought the remains of Montalvo for a cheap $10M. Samsung is in a position to do it, for sure...
 
As far as new companies taking AMD's place should they go under, honestly how many people are going to convince a board of directors to compete with Intel? We'll ignore for a moment the $2+ billion fab cost for a moment and assume that they'll use TMSC or Chartered or someone like that... This industry has a very high barrier to entry. Sun might do it, now that they've bought the remains of Montalvo for a cheap $10M. Samsung is in a position to do it, for sure...

These and many others are the reasons why no one has stepped up to the plate (or even tried) for a number of years.
 
If I had a dollar for every time I see a thread like this, I'd be rich now ;) The write-off is simply for tax purposes. It has no bearing on actual cash flow.

You guys are significantly underestimating the barrier of entry into high end x86 market. Where is a new company going to get all of the resources (human and hardware) and the infrastructure? All areas need to be staffed: RTL, circuits, CAD, implementation, verification, DFT, optimization, platforms, PDE, so on so forth. Nowadays a high end processor takes several hundred engineers 4-5 years to design with R&D costs in the area of $1 billion and more. How many companies have the funds to weather the constant assaults by Intel during this time? Oh yeah, then there's the fabs. Without in-house fabs it is impossible to compete in the high end. There is tremendous amount of information being exchanged in a feedback loop between the design team and the fab team. Such is the cost of entry, and people who work in this industry know this well.

Anyways, the media and enthusiasts are always overly reactionary. All it takes is one product generation for a complete 180 in their attitude. Not more than a month ago many people declared the infallibility of Nvidia. And look at the popular opinion on the web now. Perhaps I am a bit biased, since my employment is at stake (alas, an engineer with talent can go anywhere). Truthfully, I believe it's not prudent to write AMD off as doomed right now. The war is not over yet.
 
The problem is that developing a new architecture is very expensive, and money is something AMD currently doesn't have. Based on the previews of nehalem, their next chip would need to be 60% more efficient while maintaining clock speeds to be competitive. In order to see the type of advantage that Core 2 had on release, that would need to be around 80% more efficient at the same clock speeds, and to my knowledge, that kind of jump has never happened. (core 2 was about 80% more efficient, but at nearly a ghz lower clock speeds)

If I was AMD, I would abandon the high end and focus solely on power efficiency for laptops, and low price quad/dual cores for OEM's and budget minded consumers.
 
If I was AMD, I would abandon the high end and focus solely on power efficiency for laptops, and low price quad/dual cores for OEM's and budget minded consumers.
That may have been an option if AMD had not borrowed mega-bucks to purchase ATI. Or actually, the cash AMD had been sitting on at the time could have been better used to focus on its main product: CPUs.

It's easy to get lost in the immediate future, like looking at AMD's poor quarterly results and stock price. The longer view is questioning when AMD will come out with some kind of more competive CPU products (and/or transition to newer generation mainstream processors), how it intends to stay on the Fab upgrade treadmill when so many larger (and profitable) players are quitting due to costs and how it will possibly pay those billions in notes due in 2012.

See this news item about one of several loans. If AMD isn't doing exceptionally well, and/or can't get additional loans by then, those loans will almost certainly crush the company. There's over $5 billion in outstanding debt, all with due dates and relatively high interest payments.
 
I've got it! Spin ATI off as a separate company, transfer all of its assets and employee's over to ATI, declare bankruptcy, then rename ATI AMD.

Like magic, no debt!
 
I've got it! Spin ATI off as a separate company, transfer all of its assets and employee's over to ATI, declare bankruptcy, then rename ATI AMD.

Like magic, no debt!

Lol bro...........

Amd and the future will be fine. Ya'll need to lay off the Caffiene. Amd has NEVER been an Uber profit earner to say the least.

God help us if Intel was the only major cpu Manuf. We'd be paying through the f'in nose. Free market enterprise is a beautiful thing.
 
If I had a dollar for every time I see a thread like this, I'd be rich now ;) The write-off is simply for tax purposes. It has no bearing on actual cash flow.

Umh it does.

That write off was real money in 2006 which they borrowed from banks.The write off eliminated fictional value , but it did not eliminate the debt , nor the interest.Those are still very real.

Anyways, the media and enthusiasts are always overly reactionary. All it takes is one product generation for a complete 180 in their attitude. Not more than a month ago many people declared the infallibility of Nvidia. And look at the popular opinion on the web now. Perhaps I am a bit biased, since my employment is at stake (alas, an engineer with talent can go anywhere). Truthfully, I believe it's not prudent to write AMD off as doomed right now. The war is not over yet.

NVIDIA is profitable , has some cash on hand and virtually no debt.Add to this $1B for R&D.

AMD is not profitable even on a operational basis , has some cash on hand and is bent over by its debt.It's R&D is $1.1B , that's CPU+GPU.Did I mention that AMD needs to overhaul its FAB , ramp 45nm and prepare for 32nm ?NVIDIA has no such worries.

Yes , NVIDIA fu**d up badly with GT280 , yet , it's like Intel with Prescott.Not spectacular , not exactly power efficient but good enough to hold on until the new generation is ready.

Problem with NVIDIA is that Intel is helping AMD's GPU division.By holding information from NVIDIA on CSI , they've basically eliminated NVIDIA boards from OEMs.Also , the war of words doesn't help NVIDIA either , Intel has far more weight in the industry.
Thirdly , Larrabee forces NVIDIA to divert resources to counter it.

For the moment, AMD gains on this situation.In the future , it might get trampled since NVIDIA will recover and Intel will have Larrabee on the GPU front.
 
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