If Windows 8 fails...

If windows 8 fails, will you...

  • Total voters
    211
devil22 said:
Ignore the obvious like the fact you can open more programs faster with the start screen than the start menu?
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Personally, I pin programs to the taskbar in Windows 7. One click.....open.

I would do the same in Windows 8. I do not want nor need Metro whatsoever.
 
Greggy_D said:
Personally, I pin programs to the taskbar in Windows 7. One click.....open.

I would do the same in Windows 8. I do not want nor need Metro whatsoever.
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Yea, that's been explained 15 times, but the point is, people complain about the lack of the start menu, but the start screen is faster for most any use case I can imagine.
 
I still create the desktop toolbar and put my important stuff there (one click), I can't stand pinned apps.
 
I will use windows 8.

I've been using the start button on keyboard + type what I want + enter since vista's start menu.

It's faster overall in my case, and it works exactly the same in windows 8.
 
YeuEmMaiMai said:
that's what the MS nut swingers do, totally ignore the obvious and give you some redicilous answer that takes even more time...
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Gee, YeuEmMaiMai, in an earlier post you were complaining that Windows 8 prevented you from having your beloved, old style, menu driven access to your installed programs. I explained to you how you could still do that easily in Windows 8 simply by creating a toolbar that pointed at your Start Menu Folder. You never responded to that post, much less thanked me, but now here you are quoting a Mr.Crispy response to another post of mine and likening me to a "MS nut swinger?" There's gratitude for you.

Can you explain to me how I managed to "give you some 'redicilous' answer?" You complained that Windows 8 took away the old, menu driven style of access to your programs folder. I explained to you how to put that back into Windows 8. My solution takes less than a minute to implement. I saw your complaint as posing a question and answered it.

However, in retrospect I must agree that you were correct in that I missed the obvious: you are not actually trying to figure out how to make Windows 8 work, rather you want to continue reveling in the online Pity Party over Windows 8 with the rest of the H8ters. My suggestion took away one of your favorite complaints by showing how specious it was and now you're mad at me and calling me names. And you don't even have the courage to do that to me directly, instead posting a reply to a reply to a post of mine.

Now c'mon, there's no need to pout. There's no need to get into a snit. You don't have to like Windows 8, but you should learn to live with it as it's going to be around for a long time.
 
XOR != OR said:
User's don't care about the OS: it's a necessary shim between the user and their applications, and should be, at best, transparent.
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Doesn't that describe Modern UI just about exactly? When you launch a Modern UI app there is no chrome visible whatsoever. What more could Microsoft do to make the OS transparent?.

XOR != OR said:
One of the problems I have with win8 is that MS is going out of their way to make the user pay attention to the OS, a result of such a radical UI change.
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You only need to pay attention to Modern UI while you are first learning it. It's easy to learn and thereafter much easier to use than the desktop UI. The trade off is that the programs lack the subtly and depth of desktop programs. It's facetious to argue that Modern UI is somehow less transparent than the desktop UI.
 
Greggy_D said:
You nailed it. I went to Microsoft's office last Wednesday for a Roadmap briefing for my company. Was there from 8am until 6pm and sat through 8 separate presentations. The Windows 8 presentation lasted 2 hours.

The presenter for Windows 8 used a TABLET the entire time (which was projected on a screen) to demonstrate the features. Swiping, pinching, pulling, expanding..all with his fingers. Not once did he demo Windows 8 on a laptop/PC with a keyboard/mouse combo.

I said, "That's all well and good, but when I touch my laptop screen (which was in front of me).....nothing happens. What am I gaining on my non-touch laptop and how is the Metro/desktop combination more efficient?"

Blank stares followed by more tablet based Windows 8 marketing spiel.
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Dumb argument is dumb. OF COURSE they used a tablet. People are very familiar with the Windows desktop environment, it has changed very little in 17 years. They are showing something NEW to Windows 8, and tablet use on Windows is just that...new. (Ignoring the 3 people on earth who own a Windows 7 slate).
 
chinesepiratefood said:
Dumb argument is dumb. OF COURSE they used a tablet.
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Dumb demonstration was dumb. They were putting together a roadmap for my company which currently has laptops and desktops deployed. Tablets are still 2 years away for us (which they knew) so the demonstration should have been tailored to our specific set of circumstances. Show me how Windows 8 is relevant to me today on our current laptops and desktops. They didn't.
 
Greggy_D said:
Dumb demonstration was dumb. They were putting together a roadmap for my company which currently has laptops and desktops deployed. Tablets are still 2 years away for us (which they knew) so the demonstration should have been tailored to our specific set of circumstances. Show me how Windows 8 is relevant to me today on our current laptops and desktops. They didn't.
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It's never been easy to make a general case as to how the newest version of Windows is better than a prior version, older versions of Windows have always the biggest competition of new versions of Windows.

Granted, if this was a demo for your company and the Microsoft folks knew that you were more interested in the desktop environment it sounds like the Microsoft folks didn't do their homework or didn't quite understand what you were looking for. If I were the run running the demo I would have asked about what your OS environment looked like today, what apps you're running, what kinds of custom apps if any you have or plan on building, especially any plans for tablet and touch apps, how mobile your work force is, if you have bring you own device policies and what are the major requests and issues you face with your desktop environment today.

It's very possible that Windows 8 wouldn't provide anything significant to your company today. As much as a Windows 8 fanboy people want to say that I am, I have repeatedly said that if one is only interested in the traditional desktop that Windows 8 probably doesn't have a lot to offer, particularly in the business world. But if you are planning to adopt tablets in two years, that's not that far away and you really need to begin the planning,testing and evaluation now regardless. You may find in that process that Windows 8 does provide benefit the desktop environment, or you may find that you get better battery life out of laptops, etc.
 
Eman D. Rahym said:
Doesn't that describe Modern UI just about exactly? When you launch a Modern UI app there is no chrome visible whatsoever. What more could Microsoft do to make the OS transparent?.
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As I made clear in my next statement; you don't go making radical changes to the UI. That causes the exact opposite to happen; the OS becomes the central focus.

And while you are quite correct in saying that it's really only applicable during the "learning" phase, what you fail to acknowledge is that many users never make it out of that phase. Muscle memory + stubborn users = resist change. Especially when you don't have buy-in. If you are going to put someone through an interface change, they want to know what's in it for them. And merely saying, "You'll be more efficient! It's 2 clicks instead of 5!" does nothing for them. In fact, they tend to view you as a biased source, and thus ignore whatever points you may be trying to say ( especially if in making your points, you are purposefully misrepresenting the reality of the changes and benefits ).
 
XOR != OR said:
As I made clear in my next statement; you don't go making radical changes to the UI. That causes the exact opposite to happen; the OS becomes the central focus.
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But the computing device industry is now going through radical change. What you're saying here would do nothing but lead to the stagnation and death of Windows if it cannot be adapted to work on the kinds of devices that people are buying. If the desktop market were growing at a healthy clip then sure, don't fix what isn't broken would be a prudent strategy. But the desktop market isn't growing, most analysts see it declining and the growth is going negative.
 
Desktop Linux

Not sure which one of those words is more out of date than the other
 
Windows 8 Gets "Overwhelmingly Negative" Response from Vendors, Expectations Plummet

An analyst with Topeka Capital, who was touring Asia, meeting sources among supply chains, brings bad news to Microsoft investors. Analyst Brian White notes that the sentiment (among vendors and parts of the supply chain) about Windows 8 remains "overwhelmingly negative." Expectations from Microsoft's new client operating system plummet, as vendors don't see much activity following the October 26 launch.

"Although October is expected to be the sweet spot for the notebook ramp for Windows 8, and further follow through is likely in November, we were warned of idle facilities in December," notes White. "One of our contacts does not expect Windows 8 to be material until the second-half of 2013," he added. In related news, the industry is also reeling from a disappointing reception from Intel's 2011-12 pet project in the client computing space, Ultrabook. "...the enthusiasm around the Ultrabook ramp has also deteriorated as the cost structure remains too high under Intel's specifications," White notes.
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SOURCE

Times are good ... times are most certainly good.
 
XOR != OR said:
And while you are quite correct in saying that it's really only applicable during the "learning" phase, what you fail to acknowledge is that many users never make it out of that phase. Muscle memory + stubborn users = resist change. Especially when you don't have buy-in. If you are going to put someone through an interface change, they want to know what's in it for them. And merely saying, "You'll be more efficient! It's 2 clicks instead of 5!" does nothing for them. In fact, they tend to view you as a biased source, and thus ignore whatever points you may be trying to say ( especially if in making your points, you are purposefully misrepresenting the reality of the changes and benefits ).
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Who are we talking about here? Enterprise employees? How many of those do you think are going to come in to work on Monday, October 29 and find Windows 8 on their PCs? How many in the next year? How many enterprises do you think are going to roll out Windows 8 without any sort of business case being made for it? Most enterprises have just made the move to Windows 7, if that. It will be a while before we see the enterprise roll out Windows 8 in any significant numbers.

On the other hand, if we're talking about consumers, then they basically fall into two groups: enthusiasts like me who will take the trouble to update our Windows 7 based machines, or folks who buy new, Windows 8 savvy hardware. The former group can be expected to take care of themselves. The latter group will have substantial incentives to learn the new paradigm: they'll have touch enabled hardware and will have access to the Windows Store and the world of Modern UI apps it will make available. Free Games!

While I think there is some basis for your fears, especially for enterprise employees, I think you are overstating them. The world isn't going to switch to Windows 8 overnight. Instead, we'll see a gradual ramp up. As more and more consumers become aware of it resistance by employees will naturally fade.
 
Eman D. Rahym said:
2. Are you really the kind of person who would gloat over an industry cratering just so you can say "I told you so?"
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No, the reason for the post is because I'm tired of reading about how great Windows 8 is by a few people who arrogantly ignore a request from many users, which is giving us the option to use the Start Menu rather than Start Screen. I am happy though that Windows 8 is more likely to fail than likely to be successful as I do not like the direction Microsoft if taking the OS. I believe that desktop and tablet/mobile operating systems should be separate.
 
bigdogchris said:
No, the reason for the post is because I'm tired of reading about how great Windows 8 is by a few people who arrogantly ignore a request from many users, which is giving us the option to use the Start Menu rather than Start Screen.
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I don't think people are ignoring this point, but would this really make Windows 8 better or simply more familiar to folks? Inevitably when a big change is made to a product some people are going to resist and say don't change or give me an option to keep it like it was, we saw a lot of this with Office 2007. But the ribbon was far from the cataclysm that some were predicting.

bigdogchris said:
I am happy though that Windows 8 is more likely to fail than likely to be successful as I do not like the direction Microsoft if taking the OS. I believe that desktop and tablet/mobile operating systems should be separate.
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And why is Windows 8 likely to fail? Because some tech blogs that few average people even know exist don't like it? Because probably less than one-tenth of percent of the people that will eventually end up using Windows 8 says it sucks? Microsoft alone is spending between 1.5 and 1.8 billion USD on marketing Windows 8/RT. Windows 8 is going to be sold on the bulk of new PCs, at least in the consumer space, there's going to be a constant stream of new devices and new Metro apps that no one has seen coming out. No version of Windows since Windows 3 has been commercially unsuccessful and that includes Vista.

Sure three's going to be a lot of people that will not like Windows 8 and vehemently oppose it and there will be challenges facing it, but it's hard to see how Windows 8 is going to just fail and the next version of Windows end up being just another traditional desktop OS.
 
Eman D. Rahym said:
On the other hand, if we're talking about consumers, then they basically fall into two groups: enthusiasts like me who will take the trouble to update our Windows 7 based machines, or folks who buy new, Windows 8 savvy hardware. The former group can be expected to take care of themselves. The latter group will have substantial incentives to learn the new paradigm: they'll have touch enabled hardware and will have access to the Windows Store and the world of Modern UI apps it will make available. Free Games!
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Touch hardware is a gimmick in the home consumer space. It is inferior to the keyboard and mouse for interfacing with the workstation. Not really an incentive. As far as free games; they have that now...ala farmville and the like.

Those are not consumer-centric reasons. I take that back; consumers may fall for the touch interface for about the same amount of time as folks fell for 3d tvs. In actual day to day use, touch on a desktop doesn' make sense when you have a keyboard and mouse.
 
bigdogchris said:
SOURCE

Times are good ... times are most certainly good.
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I'm not exactly sure what the implications are of the supply chain experiencing little life at this point means. Does it mean that manufacturers haven't made a lot more PCs are this point before Windows 8 has even gone on sale? And actually there's nothing new here. Many people have been saying for some time that Windows 8 won't really kick into gear up until mid 2013.
 
bigdogchris said:
SOURCE

Times are good ... times are most certainly good.
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Likely as a result of all the internet nerdrage, fearmongering, and hyperbole.

Edit:

The OCN shows that out of the people that have tried Windows 8, more liked it than didn't like it.
 
bigdogchris said:
No, the reason for the post is because I'm tired of reading about how great Windows 8 is by a few people who arrogantly ignore a request from many users, which is giving us the option to use the Start Menu rather than Start Screen.
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I don't think a few people are "arrogantly ignoring a request from many users."

First of all, no one on this board has any power to change Windows 8. Heck, at this point not even Microsoft could change Windows 8. GA is less than two weeks away and too many people across too many companies and industries are expecting it to release in its current form for any meaningful changes to be made. I don't think it's the Windows 8 supporters who are "ignoring" that reality.

Secondly, are you sure it's a "request?" A request supposes that one may not get what is asked for. The reactions of many people to the continuing absence of the Start Menu is more akin to children screaming and holding their breath until they get their way than any gracious acceptance that they may not get what they want. It seems to me it is more like a demand that the Start Menu be returned.

Finally, that brings us to the issue of who is being "arrogant" on this board, the ones who say "this is what Windows 8 can do and here are some work-arounds to restore some of the functionality that has been removed from it" or the ones who make irrational demands that reality itself be changed to suit them and who attack the people who are making good faith attempts to help?

bigdogchris said:
I am happy though that Windows 8 is more likely to fail than likely to be successful
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Don't count your chickens before they hatch!

bigdogchris said:
I believe that desktop and tablet/mobile operating systems should be separate.
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I believe that distinction exists only in your mind. Microsoft seems to disagree with you too. Within a year or so we'll know who was right and who was wrong.
 
bigdogchris said:
I believe that desktop and tablet/mobile operating systems should be separate.
Click to expand...

Eman D. Rahym said:
I believe that distinction exists only in your mind. Microsoft seems to disagree with you too. Within a year or so we'll know who was right and who was wrong.
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This is the issue that is at the core of why I think most Windows 8 haters don't like Windows 8. Somehow by adding the Modern UI to Windows 8 Microsoft has made Windows less efficient with keyboards and mice and "dumbed down" interface.

As for the interface being "dumbed down", that's subjective and I really don't give it much thought. But after a year of using Windows 8 with keyboards and mice I simply don't see any efficiency loss compared to Windows 7.
 
heatlesssun said:
This is the issue that is at the core of why I think most Windows 8 haters don't like Windows 8. Somehow by adding the Modern UI to Windows 8 Microsoft has made Windows less efficient with keyboards and mice and "dumbed down" interface.

As for the interface being "dumbed down", that's subjective and I really don't give it much thought. But after a year of using Windows 8 with keyboards and mice I simply don't see any efficiency loss compared to Windows 7.
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There's probably an initially efficiency loss as you get used to a new interface, otherwise I agree that it's probably the same.

This thread just goes to show how adverse people, especially computer geeks, are to change. That said, I'm not buying Windows 8 unless I can get a free copy from my school. Even then I probably won't update, beyond having zero reasons to do so, as it seems Windows Live Mesh, now discontinued, won't be compatible.
 
Tsumi said:
The OCN shows that out of the people that have tried Windows 8, more liked it than didn't like it.
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where's the proof?

I know about 25 people that have tried it. None of them preferred it over Windows 7. Most of them hated the interface, only a few with touchscreens said they'd consider it. Out of the 30 I think 1 said he'd actually buy it and use it (he is eligible for the $15 upgrade though), but again only on his machine with the touchscreen.

I'd say 75% outright hated it and thought it looked childish. All of them hated the fact things are no longer in a familiar place - why would they hide shutdown under settings???? The flip flop from metro to desktop was considered confusing by everyone.

I'd then show them Win8 on my laptop with Start 8 and it almost everyone was like "ok, now this I would use". Of course you would.. it's windows 8 with the Windows 7 look. Derp.

Quite hilarious, I've since wiped it off my laptop, I work in an extremely technical field with a bunch of hardcore geeks like myself so these are Windows / Linux / Apple / Android users that have no problems playing with alternative OS's.

Other than Devil22 here on the forums, I don't know anyone else that will be buying it right now because they actually Love / Like it.
 
I have no problem being wrong if Windows 8 succeeds because that means someone has something to teach me, which is of value to me. But until that day comes I'm going to do everything in my power to suppress this OS both online and in real life.

In the end I do think Windows 8 will be mildly successful on tablet and touch devices as it's a fine OS for that. It's just absolutely horrible IMO on mouse driven computers, which are my primary productivity systems. I'm able to accept that Windows 8 can be better for some people on some devices. I just wish more Windows 8 supporters would be supportive of options for people who don't want the replacement. As of right now I can see it your way but you can't see it mine, which sounds a little arrogant and pretentious.
 
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dnottis said:
where's the proof?

I know about 25 people that have tried it. None of them preferred it over Windows 7. Most of them hated the interface, only a few with touchscreens said they'd consider it. Out of the 30 I think 1 said he'd actually buy it and use it (he is eligible for the $15 upgrade though), but again only on his machine with the touchscreen.

I'd say 75% outright hated it and thought it looked childish. All of them hated the fact things are no longer in a familiar place - why would they hide shutdown under settings???? The flip flop from metro to desktop was considered confusing by everyone.

I'd then show them Win8 on my laptop with Start 8 and it almost everyone was like "ok, now this I would use". Of course you would.. it's windows 8 with the Windows 7 look. Derp.

Quite hilarious, I've since wiped it off my laptop, I work in an extremely technical field with a bunch of hardcore geeks like myself so these are Windows / Linux / Apple / Android users that have no problems playing with alternative OS's.

Other than Devil22 here on the forums, I don't know anyone else that will be buying it right now because they actually Love / Like it.
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It's a poll over on Overclock.net. What proof do I need?
 
bigdogchris said:
In the end I do think Windows 8 will be mildly successful on tablet and touch devices as it's a fine OS for that. It's just absolutely horrible IMO on mouse driven computers, which are my primary productivity systems. I'm able to accept that Windows 8 can be better for some people on some devices. I just wish more Windows 8 supporters would be supportive of options for people who don't want the replacement. As of right now I can see it your way but you can't see it mine, which sounds a little arrogant and pretentious.
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Here's the thing. When you and others say things like Windows 8 is horrible with mice and when others and myself don't have any problems with using Windows 8 keyboards and mice, it's just tough to reconcile the difference. If one does think that Windows 8 doesn't work well with mice and keyboards and I can acknowledge that that's what some people think and can see some point. The drag and drop closing on Metro apps I do see as not very fluid on track pads for instance. But Windows 8 devices with track pads will have better gesture support for that type of thing.

I've been using Windows 8 with keyboard and mice and track pads and touch and pen for over a year now because I wanted to get a full experience of how the OS works. While I do spend a lot of time with Windows 8 tablets I also spend a lot of time on my Windows 8 dual screen setup with no touch and keyboard and mouse only. If Windows 8 were so bad with keyboards and mice I should be screaming to use my Windows 7 gaming rig when working on code or in Word or Excel and the thing is I just don't really see any horrific experiences when using keyboards and mice, even in Metro apps.

Can things be better. Of course. But I can in no way shape or form come to the conclusion that keyboard and mouse operation with Windows 8 on the desktop is a horrific experience. It just doesn't add up. And so the issue of having a switch between the new UI and the classic UI comes up, and while I do understand that that will appease some folks I just question if that's the way to go because keeping Windows stuck on desktops is in the end I think bad for Windows. I would rather see the new UI improved than to fall back to a dead end UI.
 
heatlesssun said:
But I can in no way shape or form come to the conclusion that keyboard and mouse operation with Windows 8 on the desktop is a horrific experience. It just doesn't add up. And so the issue of having a switch between the new UI and the classic UI comes up, and while I do understand that that will appease some folks I just question if that's the way to go because keeping Windows stuck on desktops is in the end I think bad for Windows. I would rather see the new UI improved than to fall back to a dead end UI.
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And yet many people have come to the exact same conclusion, including reviewers who've used Win 8 for as long as you, as well as the majority of the millions of people who've been using the DP, CP and RP for the last year. Please stop repeating the 'its the new UI or dead end old UI' myth as if the only to improve the UI and add touch was what we have today.
 
dnottis said:
Small sample and on a tech site. I'd say that is a flawed survey as well.
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If this sample doesn't matter, then your much smaller sample of 25 people counts a lot less.

You try to provide your anecdotal experience as proof, I provide proof countering your claim, and then you claim it is flawed. Haters will disregard all reason to justify their hate as being true for everyone.

Edit:
Additionally, I said the analysis of the survey was flawed, not the survey itself. The survey had over 50,000 responses. Of those 50,000, only 26% actually used Windows 8. That means ~13,000 people actually used Windows 8. Also of those 50,000, 25% preferred Windows 8. That means ~12,500 preferred Windows 8 over other operating systems. Assuming that the only people that prefer Windows 8 have actually used it, that means ~12,500 out of 13,000 people, or 96% of them liked Windows 8 more than Windows 7 after having actually used it.
 
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bigdogchris said:
I have no problem being wrong if Windows 8 succeeds because that means someone has something to teach me, which is of value to me. But until that day comes I'm going to do everything in my power to suppress this OS both online and in real life.
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It's good to have a hobby, I guess!

Still, believe it or not, there really are those of us out there who like Windows 8. You may not like it, and I'm fine with that. You're perfectly free not to use it. But it doesn't seem very friendly of you to try and stop those of us who like it from using it as well. That just doesn't seem nice. I don't see any of us trying to force you to use it after all.

Earlier you posted a link to an article where an analyst predicted Windows would fail. Here is a link to an article where a software author is interviewed who feels very bullish about Windows 8. http://www.neowin.net/news/interview-pariscribe-ceo-talks-about-windows-8-medical-apps May I ask you to read that article and see if it influences your thoughts?

bigdogchris said:
In the end I do think Windows 8 will be mildly successful on tablet and touch devices as it's a fine OS for that. It's just absolutely horrible IMO on mouse driven computers, which are my primary productivity systems. I'm able to accept that Windows 8 can be better for some people on some devices. I just wish more Windows 8 supporters would be supportive of options for people who don't want the replacement. As of right now I can see it your way but you can't see it mine, which sounds a little arrogant and pretentious.
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Speaking for myself, I'm not supportive of your position not out of malice but because I honestly cannot understand it. Indeed, no disrespect intended, but I cannot even comprehend it. For something to be horrible it has to evoke a feeling of horror. For me, people dying in car wrecks is horrible. A tornado destroying a home is horrible. War is horrible. But looking at the Start Screen? Clicking on a tile? I'm sorry, that simply does not conjure a feeling of horror for me. That anyone could have deep feelings either way about the Start Screen and Modern UI is incredible to me. While I don't hate the Start Screen I sure as heck don't love it either. To me the Start Screen is just a way of getting to programs I've pinned to it. After the initial set up of my machine I really don't give the Start Screen much thought at all. I invoke it, I click the tile and I'm off doing whatever it was I wanted to do. I'm sorry, bigdogchris , I honestly cannot grasp what the issue is you have with Modern UI. It seems irrational to me. While I may respect you, and I do think you've made some real contributions to this board over the years, I'm afraid I cannot respect the position you've staked out on Windows 8.
 
MrCrispy said:
And yet many people have come to the exact same conclusion, including reviewers who've used Win 8 for as long as you, as well as the majority of the millions of people who've been using the DP, CP and RP for the last year. Please stop repeating the 'its the new UI or dead end old UI' myth as if the only to improve the UI and add touch was what we have today.
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I find it unlikely that someone would use Windows 8 daily with a keyboard and mouse for as much and long as I if they thought the experience is horrible. That makes no sense. This is one odd thing about a lot Windows 8 opponents, they claim that they use it all the time but at the same time talk endlessly about how bad it is? That's just doesn't add up.

And where do you get the idea that the majority of people that have been using the test versions Windows don't like it? Sure, there's lots of people on the Internet complaining, but there's many that aren't and problem the majority of people aren't even commenting online.
 
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