IBM HR Made Me Lie to US Government, Says Axed VP in Age-Discrimination Legal Row

Discussion in '[H]ard|OCP Front Page News' started by Megalith, Jan 19, 2019.

  1. Megalith

    Megalith 24-bit/48kHz Staff Member

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    IBM's former vice president in its Global Engagement Office, Catherine Rodgers, has filed new documents supporting a class-action lawsuit alleging Big Blue discriminates against older workers. Rodgers, who says she was terminated for “raising concerns” regarding the firing of post-50 staff, claims in her affidavit “her superiors directed her to hide information about staff leaving from the US Department of Labor.”

    The lawsuit, Rusis et al v. IBM, was filed in September 2018. Along with similar age discrimination claims brought against IBM in California and Texas, it followed a March 2018 report from ProPublica and Mother Jones that said the global IT biz over the past few years engaged in a systematic campaign to get rid of older workers. According to the exposé, about 60 per cent of the 20,000 people laid off over a five year period were over 40.
     
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  2. DejaWiz

    DejaWiz Oracle of Unfortunate Truths

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    This has been the theme with big corporations since the mid to late 90s: fire the older employees right before they qualify for retirement benefits and hire younger employees at a lower wage.

    ...or they simply outsource/offshore/nearshore those jobs.

    Glad it's getting exposed more and more, because fuck those kinds of business practices that punishes employee loyalty.
     
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  3. Methos

    Methos Limp Gawd

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    If only there were some kind of common interest groups of people that worked together to protect each other from these kinds of practices. I heard there used to be but they died out with the coal industry.
     
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  4. Bigshrimp

    Bigshrimp Limp Gawd

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    Not many corporations seem to care about their employees, everything is being offshored. Oh and just wait until automation hits your field of business.... :(
     
  5. terpsy

    terpsy Limp Gawd

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    This is nothing new.

    When I was RIF'd by IBM in 2009, they give the breakdown of the age groups affected.

    I was one month from turning 40, and the Largest group (I mean 3-4X more than any other) were aged 39.

    Let me act surprised at this

    If not for their patent hoarding, this company would be long gone.

    Anyone who does any type of business with them in Global Services is getting less return on their dollar.

    Only their army of lawyers are used to ensure you get nickel-ed and dime-ed to death.

    Yes, everything that is pertaining to this contract would be charged as out of scope.

    As Joe Pesci would say 'FSCK You, Pay me!'
     
  6. steakman1971

    steakman1971 2[H]4U

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    I am no longer loyal to the companies I work for. I'm looking out for myself and will exploit the situation to my benefit. To clarify/expand on what I'm talking about:
    1. I will always do the best of my ability within reason. In other words, I'll earn a good performance review and deliver what I'm supposed to. I'm willing to put in some extra time assuming I have a carrot in front of me (like a bonus, promotion, etc). If it gets beyond what I consider reasonable or I see no way I'm going to benefit, I'm not going to kill myself for the companies benefit. Been there, done that. Two of the companies I used to work at went down the toilet along with the lost part of my life I spent working for them (talking about extra hours/effort, not the normal salary work).
    2. I will attend a conference if I think it makes my resume look better and expands my knowledge. Anytime I go to a conference, it's extra work - traveling on weekends, still doing your normal responsibilities, overtime spent traveling, etc. Ideally, the conference is beneficial to the company and me.
    3. I will keep my door open and talk to job recruiters about other opportunities. Keep in mind, your employer is considering if you are the right person for your job. They have no qualms about canning you. I have no qualms about taking a new job if I think it benefits me more than more current position.
    There is no such thing as a loyal employer anymore. You are a commodity. You are expendable. But, so are they! Don't lose site of it.
     
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  7. Twisted Kidney

    Twisted Kidney 2[H]4U

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    You are a filthy communist.
     
  8. Uvaman2

    Uvaman2 2[H]4U

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    I agree, no employee should be 'loyal' either, it gets you NOTHING.
    Like you say, competent and professional, yes.. 'loyal' never.
     
  9. DejaWiz

    DejaWiz Oracle of Unfortunate Truths

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    Still doesn't make them loyal to the company...only to the "organization", and the organization even goes as far as taking a measurable chunk out of everyone's paycheck for the "privilege" of being a part of said organization.

    That's merely trading one pile of shit for another pile of shit.

    Fuck that, as well.
     
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  10. KurrisMayfield

    KurrisMayfield n00b

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    Would you pay ~1 % of your salary to not be treated like shit? Because that is about what union dues are.
     
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  11. DejaWiz

    DejaWiz Oracle of Unfortunate Truths

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    Not according to my three brother-in-law's that are/were union...they had to give up about 15-20% of their paychecks for all the dues, fees, and misc fundings...and that's when they were actually given assignments to even draw paychecks.
     
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  12. NWRMidnight

    NWRMidnight Limp Gawd

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    He is either adding in all other deductions in that figure (taxes etc), or straight up lying. Union dues are usually around 2 to 3 times your hourly wage per month, or 1 to 2%. My paycheck for the week of Christmas, which also included 2 Holidays I worked which is 2.5 times my normal wage, was $3173 before taxes. My union dues (Steel worker) where $23.28 for that week. According to your brother-in-law, it would be $475.95 to $634.60 taken out of his check for the same paycheck.... he is full of crap. He is giving you the total for ALL deductions, simple as that.
     
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  13. harbingerofdoom

    harbingerofdoom Gawd

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    .....said no one i have ever known that was actually in a union.
     
  14. DejaWiz

    DejaWiz Oracle of Unfortunate Truths

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    They mentioned something about involuntary vacation account, somekind of an account they have to pay into so they get a small stipened during the times they don't get an assignment and a couple/few other things they are forced to pay in to by their unions.

    *Shrug*

    I honestly don't know much about the details of their dues, fees, accounts, etc that they are forced to pay, other than it sounds like the same ole labor racketeering that birthed the unions.

    Regardless, and like these folks that got let go from IBM based on their age, one of my BIL got let go from the union when he hit 45...right after he relocated half way across the country to try and pick up more frequent work with the help and assistance of a different local.
     
  15. Methos

    Methos Limp Gawd

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    Labor racketeering did not birth unions, labor abuses birthed unions. I’m not even talking about child labor and the like during the industrial revolution in Britain. I’m talking the good ole USA, where safety precautions didn’t exist, hours and pay were unfair, workers were payed in company script that could only be spent at the company store, or older workers were let go in favor of younger cheaper workers (where do you think the concept of seniority came from?).

    Google the Battle of Blair Mountain, it’s actually pretty interesting. Anyhow I’m not going to convince you otherwise, but your opinions are really misinformed. Somewhere along the lines Corporate America convinced the public that they’d look after you, and that the unions were your real enemy. Seems to be working splendidly I’d say.
     
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  16. HAL_404

    HAL_404 Limp Gawd

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    I worked in the nuclear industry for 5 years at a company that made radiation detection equipment and it was a union shop and those who were high on the tenure list were the laziest "do as little as you can" workers I ever saw to date and those who had the real talent and drive were first out the door if a layoff ever came. The City workers where I live are union and talk about do nothing good for nothings ... I can give you many instances of what I saw but why bother ... anyone with the least amount of observational skills knows unions cause an anti-productive work environment (teacher's tenure is a grand example and look at our Public schools today ... sad)
     
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  17. [21CW]killerofall

    [21CW]killerofall Aliens...

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    My company is actually offshoring (as direct hires, not contractors, in India) and bringing some work back into the company from contractors to be done in the US.
     
  18. DejaWiz

    DejaWiz Oracle of Unfortunate Truths

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    You've got me figured wrong: I hate corporate America and corporate unions. They're both after the same thing, after all.
     
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  19. surlyroad

    surlyroad [H]Lite

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    Firing the older employees, and hiring younger folks, or just outsourcing, was a big part of the seminal classic "Office Space."

    And, as gratuitous as it might be -- Jennifer Aniston.
     
  20. nutzo

    nutzo [H]ardness Supreme

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    Unless you happen to cross the union, then you have an organization that treats you worse than any business.
     
  21. mesyn191

    mesyn191 2[H]4U

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    Your brother-in-law's lied to you (edit: decided to give more benefit of the doubt but really dude you need to actually learn to think for yourself and apply some real effort beyond "my bros said" or "random blog post said") .

    UAW (which is one of the bigger unions in the US still) due's for instance are trivially google-able, here they are if you can't be bothered to look.

    tl&dr if you can't even be bothered to click the link: UAW dues are either 2.5hr of pay or 1.44% of monthly pay depending on your income.

    LOL no they're not.

    Unions are a imperfect organization that can be ran well and produce great results or ran horribly and produce horrible results but still normally do not actively try and screw over their constituents because the people in the union have a great deal of say over whoever is running it.

    Corps however are always they same: they're only interested in making money and they don't even slightly care about ethics or laws which is why they violate both whenever possible and the workers they employ have no say over that.

    This "both sides" stuff is some straight up dishonest BS.
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2019
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  22. DejaWiz

    DejaWiz Oracle of Unfortunate Truths

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    You've got your opinions. I've got mine.

    We could go back and forth on this forever.

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/mattpatterson/2016/10/18/the-union-scam-workers-make-bosses-take/amp/
     
  23. Methos

    Methos Limp Gawd

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    Any union is what you make it, that much I’d agree. Not every guy in a union goes to the Jimmy Hoffa School for Organized Labor. There’s a lot of problems that can occur, especially in really large organizations, but every member has a voice. The concept of ‘every member works as fast as the slowest man’ is completely unsustainable. There’s lazy people that are non-union, and they can be just as difficult to weed out as they are in a union.

    There’s an old saying “A man carries his card, the card doesn’t carry the man”, the card referring to his union membership card. If you are a hard working, loyal, honest employee the union is exactly where you belong. Unions are evolving with the workforce, and the need is as great as it ever was.
     
  24. Methos

    Methos Limp Gawd

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    This can be an unintended consequence of seniority protections, I agree. Your visual observation of your city employees is unconvincing but sure, ok. And the fact that you think the teachers unions are the reason for the decay of the public school system is beyond understanding. Perhaps they should work for free, because it’s for the children? Funding cuts, deteriorating infrastructure, increasing demand, poor parent participation, increased rates of poverty, these couldn’t possibly be the reason... its those darned unions.
     
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  25. mesyn191

    mesyn191 2[H]4U

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    Opinions?! You made a false claim based on what someone told you that was trivial to verify if it was correct or not. That isn't a opinion.

    And your article does nothing to back up what you were saying earlier about union dues either. The author is just litterally saying "hey some of these union bosses make ~$300K/yr as income and that is wrong because uuuuhhh reasons".

    Litterally that is ALL it is.

    And BTW that UAW link broke down how the dues get spent for them to so you get to see just how much the overhead is.

    So no we couldn't go back and forth on this forever if that is all you've got. And its dishonest of you to say otherwise.
     
  26. DejaWiz

    DejaWiz Oracle of Unfortunate Truths

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    Ah, now you're trying to dictate my feelings towards unions. Nah.
     
  27. mesyn191

    mesyn191 2[H]4U

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    Nope.

    I'm pointing out the reasons you're giving as the basis for your feelings are BS and if you were honest you wouldn't be presenting them as such because they're so clearly BS.
     
  28. KurrisMayfield

    KurrisMayfield n00b

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    Oh, the classic mistake of believing your in laws about anything that has to do with money. You are forgiven.
     
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  29. DejaWiz

    DejaWiz Oracle of Unfortunate Truths

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    Read the article I posted earlier. lt essentially sums up how I've felt about unions since my father was in one (and eventually a steward). Besides, they're my thoughts and opinions, which I am 100% entitled to, regardless of what you think based off of a mere few forum posts.

    As I said before, we can all go back and forth on this forever. At the end, we'll still be right where we started: with a difference of opinion.

    Shuffle off to your union like a good little group-think lemming, now.
     
  30. DejaWiz

    DejaWiz Oracle of Unfortunate Truths

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    Who the fuck are you to know what my in-laws are like?
     
  31. Private_Ops

    Private_Ops [H]ard|Gawd

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    My union is pretty well bought (behind closed doors) out past the local level. Only thing they're good for is keeping our jobs and even then its a kangaroo court. Our last contract we got nothing aside from a tiny raise that didn't even get close to keeping up with inflation.

    I'm only loyal to those at the local level that I work with. My views on anything higher and my enployers treatment of lower level employees (us on the ground) isn't exactly favorable.
     
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  32. cyclone3d

    cyclone3d [H]ardForum Junkie

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    I worked at a shop that was unionized... the UAW was there to be exact.

    1. A good number of the union "workers" would sabotage manufacturing line equipment and/or finished product. Nothing was done to them.. they pretty much couldn't be fired.
    2. A good number of them would refuse to do their work or skirt around stuff that they were supposed to be doing. Then when the non-union workers were forced to do it and a union "worker" found out, the union "worker" would file a grievance and get paid for doing it and also get extra pay... while the person who actually did the work would get reprimanded.
    3. The union bosses were pretty much a pile of #$%#$%^$%&^% and ended up causing the whole plant to go out of business because they were only interested in lining their pockets with union dues.

    After that experience I vowed to never work in a unionized shop for the rest of my life.
     
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  33. Uvaman2

    Uvaman2 2[H]4U

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    Funny how these "stories" read the same... Where are they from , Glen Beck's a anecdotes for conservatives to win arguments website?
    My wife happens to be union now, guess what? Dues are a pittance... Also guess what? People just work.... Imagine that. My wife works severely hard, harder than he has at any other job in fact. Guess what also, there is no kissy kissy false 'we love our employees' bullshit, you do your job and that is it.. in turn, however its harder to get fired unfairly, person with 2 accidents was being looked into to be fired by management, tell me how would this be fair if it wasn't their fault? Well representative stepped in, employee is protected... Private, non-union the employee would have been gone probably from the first.. guaranteed the second their fault or not.

    Its awesome how in a tech website there is so much animosity towards unions. EA a game studio that became a multi billion dollar study.. Shit even the voice actors (if they employ known ones) propably make more money than the person behind coding the game for hours and hours in a temporary contract with no benefits relatively low pay.. and absurd unachievable deadlines ( do you honestly believe unachievable deadlines are a 'mistake' or 'bad management' no its excellent management, that way they can fire you at any point, deny you... Well everything.. and pat you in the back like a puppy if you put up with it, work too many hours and bring work at home and so on.)
    Yeah you would THINK this sector is prime and ready for unions, Ageism in tech such as what IBM did , not a problem in tech... " Interns" not a problem. "Temp contract" bullshit, not a problem... This is all ABUSE in the IT sector... The most obscene thing is that it comes often times from rich corporations.. in the case of IBM they had their problems, probably ALL bad management. Besides how is this move working out for them ? Any exciting new products from IBM ? ( I really don't know, other than Bluetooth?, which is old by now)
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2019
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  34. cyclone3d

    cyclone3d [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Nope, this is personal experience. I worked there for 8 months.

    I was one of the IT support people. Due to union rules, we were not allowed to do any cat-5 wiring even though the union electrician that was there was very incompetent. Yeah... leaving 3-4 inches of untwisted wire on the end of a cable is a great idea.... works so well. I had to fix so many cables on the mfg floor it was insane. Then there was the time when a video cable broke in one of the conference rooms. I had to personally source a pin to repair the cable and then the "electrician" was supposed to fix the cable. Guess what, they didn't even crimp it on properly. I ended up having to sneak and solder another pin on the cable to fix it. Luckily I never got caught.

    Then there was another person on the IT team that ended up having to do something with a cell phone for one of the other people there because the normal person was on vacation. Ended up that a union person was supposed to do it and even though they were there and knew what was going on they waited until it was done before saying anything and filed a grievance.

    As for the manufacturing floor, the union "workers" would either steal or cut cables multiple times a week in order to take their line down so they didn't have to work.

    We also had chicken bones end up in fully assembled car stereo units. Oh.. I wonder how those go there.

    So before you say this is from some "win argument website", maybe you should stop and think that maybe some unions and union "workers" are just pieces of trash and need to not exist.
     
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  35. Uvaman2

    Uvaman2 2[H]4U

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    Yet much of that has nothing to do with ' unions ' exclusively.. Plenty of horror stories in the utopian private sector.. though, You know what is more exclusive to private right to work... Worker abuse... Ageism... Even then , not perfect..but certainly unions helps stopping that. Just wtf dude anything human is, you know human.
     
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  36. cyclone3d

    cyclone3d [H]ardForum Junkie

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    And I am not saying all unions are bad... but the UAW IS BAD from personal experience.

    Therefore I have no desire to work at a union shop ever again.

    And I never said the private sector is perfect either... but at least people that are bad / malicious can be fired.
     
  37. mesyn191

    mesyn191 2[H]4U

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    I read the article. Its a BS opinion piece that is trying to make a mountain out of a molehill at best and outright facetious at worst. The author just points to union leader's wages as being inherently unfair and unjust without actually giving any reasons for those claims. I mean those guys make peanuts compared to many CEO's and Wall St execs but somehow their wages are a huge problem?? Complete BS.

    Did you actually look at the UAW link I gave? Did you not see how dues are broken out and where they go in detail?

    You're entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts.

    And its quite telling that every time in thread so far you try to present something as factual it turns out to be outright lies that is trivial to disprove.

    If you're willing to be dishonest and/or just ignore information then sure yeah we can go back and forth forever.

    Realistically though after the post where I linked the UAW dues clearly showing your earlier claims to be false it was obvious to everyone you were all done on this issue.

    Hahaha and now we're down to lame insults.

    I'm also not a part of any union currently BTW though I wouldn't mind being in one. Workers in my field could certainly use some help though I'm doing OK for the most part I'm unusual.
     
  38. mesyn191

    mesyn191 2[H]4U

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    Yeah all your stories sound like peak stdh.txt FWD:FWD:FWD email story crap that boomers send each other.

    Its statistically a given that there'll be some scumbags in any sufficiently large organization but by and large union workers in general are known for doing good work and the stuff you're talking about isn't the norm.

    That you can't be fired in a union is some BS propaganda on the same level of Reagan's mythical Welfare Queen. Union workers get fired all the time. That its harder to do so is a GOOD thing especially in this day and age when workers are treated like disposable trash.
     
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  39. Methos

    Methos Limp Gawd

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    I’m sorry you had that experience. I’m certain that dues didn’t cause a plant to shut down, dues are paid by members. If it’s inflated wages or poor workmanship then sure, blame the union. Blame the members for wanting too large a share of the profits, or blame them for resorting to the lowest common denominator instead of making each other stronger employees. It sounds like you weren’t actually a member, and you just believed what you were told. Businesses strive to save on costs in pursuit of greater margins, and sometimes that means following cheaper labor. Why make a 10% profit in Michigan when you can make a 20% profit in Georgia? Avoid all those nasty old unions eating up the shareholders hard earned profits. Or just move it all to Mexico and then you don’t even need to worry about any kind of labor regulations at all. You know all this, but it’s sacrilege to disrespect the company. Blame each other instead.

    I can say that I work really hard to make my union better, and I’m proud of the work I do. Maybe one day you’ll work alongside someone who feels the same as I do, and they’ll change your mind.
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2019
  40. SvenBent

    SvenBent 2[H]4U

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    When i worked in Denmark in a union i had to give up around 3% for the union
    it was one of the more expensive ones and my pay was not high so for most pppl it would probably be a bit lower

    but hell even 5% i would glady give away to recieved the eenfits it gave me
    * legal advice with impropper fyring
    * legal advice with impropepr handling of HR issues
    * 5 weeks of paid vacation ( which 3 week you can demand to have to be in succions in the summer periode)
    * paid sickdays
    * holliday offs
    * 8% less works week

    Ssorry but working in the states is a huge dump of crap
     
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