I want to do this the right way.

Well 805D uses a woven kevlar woofer, which doesn't exactly have the greatest track record of stability under SPL.
 
Archmage said:
My final suggestion: What I'm saying isn't very important. People are already giving you pretty good suggestions for your budget. I'm the type of guy who builds and designs everything for myself, so I can't help much here.
Click to expand...

Wow, what a response. I really appreciate you taking the time to type all of that out. Although I should have added the addendum "for laymen who do not understand the jargon and technical terms" to my question. That said, it's not your responsibility to teach me from the ground up, and I once again thank you for giving that lengthy explanation.

Archmage said:
One more thing: Not everyone believes that distortion is all that important. Earl Geddes, one of the most knowledgeable audio-engineers in the world, claims that distortion below a certain degree isn't a huge determining factor in sound quality. In his tests, people could not reliably distinguish what constituted good sound. Furthermore, the human ear is much less sensitive to BASS distortion (below about 150hz). It's not uncommon for good bass drivers to be reproducing upwards of 10% harmonic distortion - it's much worse at the average nightclub, wherein they try to reproduce low bass using proAudio drivers (which are good; they're just not subwoofers) with minimal excursion capabilities. Most of those DJ's and sound technicians don't know what they're doing, or perhaps they're told that the club will attract more people the more obnoxious it is.
Click to expand...

Seeing as how I want to get myself a nice system, one which will wow me, what sort of variables in the equation "X harmonic distortion at Ydb @ Zm" should I be looking for in my speakers and subwoofer? Is there anything in spec pages I should be looking for which suggests that X speaker or subwoofer is of high-quality?
 
I think (though not sure) that if its only for a $600-$800 2.1 set, either the Marantz or the Onkyo will be fine. Onkyo usually has more features, Marantz seem to have good stable amp. For a 2.1, I think its ok so long as you don't go after hard to drive speakers or 4 ohm ones.

Overall, spend more on the speaker than on the amp. The SVS speakers/subs are very nice but may be out of the price range if your budget is around $600. Check for BIC subs or refurbished Energy subs. Hsu makes a nice little sub in the STF-1 but still may be too pricy.

If you had $800 budget as you originally mentioned, I would have said get a $300 speaker, $300 sub and a $200 receiver. If you have less, I may suggest going to a 2.0 and getting a sub later. This will let you get some decent components.

Some nice speakers out there and since speakers are such a personal thing, I would suggest shopping around.

On the lower end (but not too low) something like the Arx A1 may be interesting.
http://www.theaudioinsider.com/product_info.php/loudspeakers/arx/p/arx-a1/cPath/21_32/products_id/65

It has 3" magnetic tweeters and a 5.3" woofer (a bit small without a sub but for the moment may do)

For higher NHT of course has their popular Absolute Zero for $300 and Two (Two is the name of the speaker) for $500 for a pair.

http://www.nhthifi.com/nhtstore/Classic

For $570 + shipping Swan has their D1.1se.

http://www.theaudioinsider.com/product_info.php/p/swan-d1-1se/products_id/140

If you want to go real low, Tweak City Audio has their WAF-1 for only $189.00 per pair.

http://tweakcityaudio.com/index.php...ufacturer_id=0&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=1

So one way to go cheap is to get the Gizmo/WAF combo (Gizmo has a sub out if I recall) and spend the rest on a very nice sub (like the SVS or a HSU). You can also go WAF-1 or Arx A1 and spend a bit on a nice receiver and still have a bit for a cheaper sub like a BIC or a Dayton. Or go 2.0 and get a more expensive bookself speaker. There are a ton of choices. Overall, most will blow the doors off of any standard PC speaker (with the exception of active monitors by good companies such as Adam, Genelec, Dyaudio, KRK, Yamaha, etc).

On the other hand, listening to Archmage is probably better. :p
 
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Zenshi said:
If you had $800 budget as you originally mentioned, I would have said get a $300 speaker, $300 sub and a $200 receiver. If you have less, I may suggest going to a 2.0 and getting a sub later. This will let you get some decent components.
Click to expand...

Thanks for all that, Zenshi. I picked $600-800 because it seemed like something doable I could save in a month or two. But again, I am looking for quality, so I'm considering just getting the system piece by piece, no matter how much or how long it takes. That said, I don't want anything insanely expensive - I just want something that an audiophile would consider good quality but not the absolute best; I'm trying to be realistic here.

This will be my first actual monitor system by the way. The best I've ever had is the Z-5500's.
 
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Zetherin said:
Thanks for all that, Zenshi. I picked $600-800 because it seemed like something doable I could save in a month or two. But again, I am looking for quality, so I'm considering just getting the system piece by piece, no matter how much or how long it takes. That said, I don't want anything insanely expensive - I just want something that an audiophile would consider good quality but not the absolute best; I'm trying to be realistic here.

This will be my first actual monitor system by the way. The best I've ever had is the Z-5500's.
Click to expand...

That's fair, however, the one feeling you would not want is the regret that you should have gotten 'that' instead of this. $800 is fair, dont get me wrong, certainly miles better than most in this forum expect for much less money. If you could either stretch the budget to accommodate a better 2.0 system and get the subwoofer later (which is perfectly fine, I ran 2.0 for a while), or just get quality components all the way, that would be optimal. $1200 would cut it for a very very good system (since I assume you are in the states and you tend to get AV stuff for much less than it is here in Canada).

'Best' in an audiophile's world can run tens of thousands of dollars :p

The initial cost is expensive, but the returns in quality and longevity is well.. well worth it.

What you want are brands that are known for delivering quality for good value, with receivers, from my experience, that tends to be onkyo. Sure, they are not the best, but its certainly alot of receiver for the money. Same applies to subwoofers, look at subwoofers from HSU, SVS, Epik, and Elemental Designs. Speakers are a little tough as there literally are thousands of brands out there, my suggestions would be to go to a bunch of audio stores, take your favorite music in CDs, and demo them, and then work from there.
 
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Wow the 7002 has dropped in price! It would be nice if Marantz would update their 7 and 8 series. I believe the 5 and 6 are all up to xxx4.
 
Those are pretty solid choices.

Have you auditioned the B&W speakers yet? If not, I would suggest bringing some music with you to a dealer to get a feel for their sound. I find most B&W speakers very mid-range forward. A lot of people like that sound. It is of course a personal preference, and B&W do make nice speakers.

Everyone always says this, but try to listen to as many brands as possible to find a sound that you like.

Have fun with whatever you decide on, I'm sure it will sound amazing!
 
Zetherin said:
Guys, what do you think of this system?

Bookshelves*: B&W 685
http://www.listenup.com/B&W+685-p-685-p-.html
*I chose bookshelves because the system will be used in a relatively small room.

Subwoofer: SVS PB10-NSD
http://www.svsound.com/products-sub-box-10nsd.cfm

Receiver: Marantz SR7002
http://www.amazon.com/Marantz-SR7002-Surround-Receiver/dp/B000X14W4G
Click to expand...

very nice choices indeed.if your not satisfied with the sound of that equipment.id say ur hearing is bad.:D
 
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Yeah, that's an awesome start. Hard to go wrong with those brands. I'd check out some more speakers just for the sake of looking at more options, but as CJRP said B&W are pretty highly regarded.
 
Thanks, guys. Yeah, my main problem is finding places to try out the speakers. They usually don't have these high-end brands at places like Best Buy, do they? They seem to only be sold at small audio boutiques.

You guys are right, though - I'm not going to spring that much money until I have a listen first :)
 
I have Magnepan 1.6s. You will definitely need a sub with them but that said the sound is like NOTHING else- it's crystal clear. Close your eyes and everything comes into focus. They have to be substantially off the ground though. You can mount them on a wall but they should be slanted at a 45 or so into the room and several (the more the merrier) away from side walls. The sound just surrounds you with everything incredibly distinct. Look up reviews of Magnepans- in every instance they say they are the best value for the money of any commercial speaker. Made in the US as well and fantastic customer service.
 
I hear BB is starting to carry the B&W brand in HT Magnolia. (May only be true in certain areas).
 
There are some other subs worth checking out in that price range in addition to the PB10-NSD.

The eD A2-300, eD A3-250, HSU VTF-1, HSU STF-2, and some new ones that should be good: Epik Legend (during it's intro pricing) and the TCA CraigSUB CS-10.2.
 
Wow that is a nice combo Zetherin. I guess you found some more funds for your budget? :D I would love a set like that. In any case, hope you find what you want. :)
 
I intended to weigh-in on this thread again, but I think the forum possibly had some vbulletin issues or something.

- I think your choices are good. That B&W speaker looks to be reasonably priced. SVS has earned a reputation for making good subwoofers, and their PB-13ultra has produced great measurements.
- Here is an archive of subwoofer tests: http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/subwoofer-tests-archived/
- Here are the tests organized by manufacturer (note SVS has a huge section): http://www.hometheatershack.com/for...index-subwoofer-tests-manufacturer-model.html
- Note that there are PB10 and PB12 models tested. I just barely glossed over the numbers, but I'd definitely spring for the PB12 if I had the room. It looks pretty good just from a quick glance.
- I think you're headed in the right direction.

Somehow I don't think the DIY option suits you (because it's a lot of work (could be 100+ hours, depending upon complexity), and it'd be difficult to demo the sound), but If you're considering DIY speakers:

- I like the Zaph ZA14 midrange + SB acoustics tweeter, and the Dayton RS225 8" mid + dayton RS28a tweeter.:

- http://madisound.com/store/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=zaph - here is Zaph's section of the madisound store. Unfortunately, his kits using the ZA14 midwoofer are paired with a cheaper Vifa tweeter. It's still good, but it's outclassed by the ZA14, and for this reason others have completed designs using a better tweeter from SB acoustics: http://zaphaudio.com/contest.html - here is Zaph's design contest featuring several crossover options.

While the ZA14 is easily the best midrange in its class (size, price, intended frequency range), it is small. The designs all use vented (ported) enclosures to compensate, but it's not going to provide the same midbass performance as an 8" driver. Otherwise, though, it maintains low distortion (besting my Seas Excel w15cy mids; ZA14's appear to be an improved version of nearly the same design) at surprisingly high SPL.

The 2 tests in which the ZA14 has been independently reviewed:
http://www.audioheuristics.org/measurements/Testing/ZA14/ZA14.htm
http://www.audioheuristics.org/measurements/Testing/Midrange4/midrange_4_test_data.htm

http://www.audioheuristics.org/projects_gallery/RS225_RS28A_updates/dayton_reference_rs225.htm - and here is the Dayton Reference setup design from the same site. The Dayton RS225 8" mid is actually amazing. It offers among the best midbass performance available, and somehow matches the midrange distortion offered by the comparable 7" Seas, Usher, scanspeak, and peerless alternatives. The RS28a tweeter is also among the best, and it can play low w/o much strain to smoothly crossover to the RS225. PartsExpress sells dayton.

DIY Subwoofers: I'd go with a dayton Reference HF. AEspeakers offers the AV and IB series for serious bass setups.
- http://zaphaudio.com/tidbits/ - Dayton Reference HF measurements on this page if you search "skaaning" - about 3/4 the way down.

- Passive Radiator would be my enclosure of choice, but vented will also work fine.
- I'd use the biggest subwoofer I could fit (15" usually).
- Multiple subwoofers will actually help tremendously, but that's for a more serious home theater setup. I'd place them throughout the room, spread far apart to, essentially, more evenly distribute the bass energy (minimize room modes). - Thank Dr. Earl Geddes for that recommendation.
- A separate amplifier may be needed. An inexpensive "plate" amp or behringer class A/B amp (partsexpress) could be used.

If designed and built correctly, this may just be better than any SVS subwoofer, but if you have to buy one, then, as shown in the subwoofer tests above, SVS actually does make among the best subwoofers available, and they're a good value.


Some nearly irrelevant observations about SVS' speakers (not subwoofers):

- SVS uses scanspeak aircirc (6600 model?) tweeters for their high-end lineup. That, along with the Peerless HDS tweeter, is among the best performing tweeters ever produced.
- SVS uses peerless Exclusive or HDS midwoofers. My friend has them in his car - and they're quite good, but I'm not sure why they didn't simply use the less expensive Peerless HDS tweeter (which performs about on-par with the AirCirc tweeter; higher 3rd order, lower 2nd order and overall distortion) if they were going to use a mid-priced woofer? Odd decisions.
 
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Archmage,

I have absolutely no experience building audio components, and I'm not sure I'd be up for building unless the sound was tremendously better than something I could buy pre-built. Thank you again for all the extensive information, but I regret that I cannot even understand half of it due to my ignorance of audio equipment in general.
 
Some of the kits are pretty simple. I believe some of the Dayton kits need nothing more than some glue and a screw driver.
 
Since it looks like no one has mentioned it yet: when you go to listen to nice speakers, the room and the receiver will have a huge affect on sound quality. Some of these high-end places have speakers that sound unbelievable, but they can have a 5K receiver/amplifier. A dedicated audition room for sound will sound better then best buy or Fry's. I went through this experience upgrading to a Dennon AVR3310 and 2 Polk RTi12s. Also Paradigm makes good speakers as does Klipsch. They are also easier to drive than RTi12s.
 
I know you're kidding, but incidentally, I've built some line-array setups, and I'd say that the benefits of a large line-array do not outweigh the disadvantages.

A high efficiency 3-way setup sounds better to me. Less phase distortion... simpler... better imaging = more like a point-source.

Audiogon could be good, though.
 
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1284921062&/Revel-Ultima-Salon2-Mahogany--

1279732823.jpg


Screw the line source!

5-way with 1" beryllium tweeter, 4", 6.5", and three 8" inverted titanium woofers. The cabinet is built with 2½ inches of MDF (those B&W bookshelf speakers have 0.625 inch mdf.

High order crossovers, curved baffle to reduce diffraction, and a waveguide for extended dispersion.

:D
 
Archmage said:
I know you're kidding, but incidentally, I've built some line-array setups, and I'd say that the benefits of a large line-array do not outweigh the disadvantages.

A high efficiency 3-way setup sounds better to me. Less phase distortion... simpler... better imaging = more like a point-source.

Audiogon could be good, though.
Click to expand...

How many "ways" should I be looking for in a speaker, and what are some materials I should be looking for?
 
jakeshields said:
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1284921062&/Revel-Ultima-Salon2-Mahogany--

http://pic4.audiogon.com/i/c/f/1279732823.jpg

Screw the line source!

5-way with 1" beryllium tweeter, 4", 6.5", and three 8" inverted titanium woofers. The cabinet is built with 2½ inches of MDF (those B&W bookshelf speakers have 0.625 inch mdf.

High order crossovers, curved baffle to reduce diffraction, and a waveguide for extended dispersion.

:D
Click to expand...

I take it you read OP's budget and are offering all of this for $850?
 
Zetherin said:
How many "ways" should I be looking for in a speaker, and what are some materials I should be looking for?
Click to expand...

When I say "3-way," I mean that the sound spectrum, aside from the bass, is divided into 3 frequency partitions (midbass + midrange + high frequency driver, for instance). A 2-way would be a midbass/range + high frequency driver.

A 2-way setup would also be far simpler to produce, and some prefer them due to their simplicity. The same people also generally have an aversion to crossovers (electronics used to attenuate the signal in a specific manner (there are different crossover filters and slopes from which to choose) for the purpose of transitioning from one speaker to the next). This aversion is understandable - the more divided a speaker system is, the further it is from the ideal of a "point source." Furthermore, some people won't accept a crossover in the vocal range - a primary complaint against 3-way setups. Crossovers in the midbass region are less of an issue than those of the "full-range" dogma (Those who use a single full-range speaker, and no crossovers at all) profess.

I'd generally recommend 2-way setups. They're more practical: They're less expensive, the crossover is simpler, they're smaller, they require less power (and can more easily be powered by a receiver), etc...

Still, I generally prefer the dynamics of a well-designed 3-way. They allow for a bigger woofer for dedicated midbass, alleviating the excursion demand on the midrange, which can now be sized smaller, thus allowing for a higher crossover point to the tweeter, which thusly does not have to play quite as low (tweeters tend to strain when crossed low). - To achieve that level of power in a 2-way would require a LARGE, low-inductance midwoofer mated to a compression driver (or robust dome tweeter, or simply a high-SPL capable ribbon w/o a waveguide) on an equally LARGE waveguide (much like the excellent "Gedlee" Summa design). That's a large speaker though...

As for materials - There is no clear answer... there are so many variations that I just look for the end result.

In Woofers and midranges, softer materials tend to be more well-damped, and avoid harsh breakups (audible resonance induced in cone due to material - instability), but sometimes they sacrifice a bit of rigidity, and thus store more energy on average, leading to slightly higher linear distortion (with respect to time, that is). Translation: they'll take a little longer to reach full-rest after excitation.

Some of my favorite woofers are composed of non-rigid materials, however. They seem to escape the above generalization, perhaps due to modern damping compounds, impregnated cones, newer geometries, more evolved suspension, spider, and motor designs lending the speaker better control over the cone... who knows

There are, however, distinct characteristics associated with RIGID pistonic membranes. The Seas Excel Magnesium cone drivers are about as rigid as they come, and feature incredibly HARSH breakup modes at higher frequencies.

As an example, one cannot use the Seas Excel w18EX above about 1.6Khz without noticing a sharp rise in 3rd-order harmonic distortion. When looking at the frequency response, I'd expect an aberration at 4.8Khz or so (3x 1.6Khz).

While these rigid cones can be GREAT in their usable range, they are not at all flexible with respect to design. They must be used very specifically for the range they were intended.

I'm not even sure continuing this discussion will be of any use - no materials are really SUPERIOR. About the only thing I can say is that polypropylene is relegated to use in mid-level or budget speakers. The higher-end speakers will use an impregnated fiber or paper, hemp, carbon fiber, kevlar, aluminum, magnesium, ceramic, etc... but usually not poly.

In terms of motor designs, the better drivers will feature more copper in the motor in the form of faraday "shorting" rings to reduce inductance and linearize motor strength. Unfortunately, most drivers feature only a small shorting ring at one end, which will reduce inductance, but perhaps not linearly over the excursion range of the driver. A better design, employed by AEspeakers, is to use copper over the entire pole-piece. That's just something you won't see without spending a lot of money.

As for enclosure materials: That's all over the place... Baltic Birch and Marine Plywood are popular, but hell... I've lost my information about the properties of various material for this purpose. MDF is the choice of most - it's inexpensive and it just works.
 
@Zetherin, what are the dimensions of your listening room? While you're at it, you should build yourself some room treatments.
 
Yes, even a modest effort toward treating the room may make an easily noticeable difference.

This highlights the importance of the listening environment, which Grimm Fool broached earlier. That is a very practical matter to consider when auditioning speakers.

I'm liking all of this practical, useful, applicable advice.

I need someone to keep me on task... I keep ranting about irrelevant crap... I'm not sure how useful it is to this thread.

I suppose I'll stop now.
 
Archmage said:
I need someone to keep me on task... I keep ranting about irrelevant crap... I'm not sure how useful it is to this thread.

I suppose I'll stop now.
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I don't think most of it is irrelevant. I'm very interested in the matter, and you're teaching me, and presumably many others, a lot. Thank you.

persisting1 said:
@Zetherin, what are the dimensions of your listening room? While you're at it, you should build yourself some room treatments.
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Room treatments? What sort of room treatments? As for the dimensions, I will post them when I get them.
 
B&W probably has the best speaker offerings at your price level. The 600 series is killer. I would recommend looking for a quality integrated amplifier (pre-amplifier and amp) as opposed to a receiver.

In general, the brands I would be looking for are:

-B&W
-Rotel
-Arcam
-Bryston

Get the stuff used from Audiogon.com.
 
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