I think I may have made a mistake...getting an LCD...

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jyi786

Supreme [H]ardness
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I got my VP201b the beginning of this month. It is one heck of a screen: beautiful text, not too much ghosting, no eye strain, etc. etc.

Then just yesterday I load up Thief II and Doom 3. Woops. Big mistake. I spent all last night tweaking around with color settings, the works. To put it simply: There is NO SUCH THING as black on an LCD. Nowhere close. I cannot sit and play a "dark" game in the dark with muddy gray for black. I was not able to tweak the muddy gray into black or anything even resembling black.

I now have an NEC FE2111SB-BK from Newegg on order, and it should be here on Thursday. Console me and help me get over what I'm thinking has turned out to be a $700.00 mistake. And no, I can't return to ZZF, their policy says 15 days from date of invoice for monitors.

Also, give me suggestions on how to tweak the new NEC CRT the easiest.

Thanks.
 
I've never seen a CRT that had a way to officially adjust black, but what I do is max out the contrast and avoid brightness, when there is an option I up color presence but still not the brightness, it will give the same backlight effect as an LCD and kill color luster.

I don't see why people pick out this NEC 22", looks like a good monitor, but there are cheaper solutions with higher resolutions such as sony with good color.
 
ajm786 said:
I got my VP201b the beginning of this month. It is one heck of a screen: beautiful text, not too much ghosting, no eye strain, etc. etc.

Then just yesterday I load up Theif II and Doom 3. Woops. Big mistake. I spent all last night tweaking around with color settings, the works. To put it simply: There is NO SUCH THING as black on an LCD. Nowhere close. I cannot sit and play a "dark" game in the dark with muddy gray for black. I was not able to tweak the muddy gray into black or anything even resembling black.

I now have an NEC FE2111SB-BK from Newegg on order, and it should be here on Thursday. Console me and help me get over what I'm thinking has turned out to be a $700.00 mistake. And no, I can't return to ZZF, their policy says 15 days from date of invoice for monitors.

Also, give me suggestions on how to tweak the new NEC CRT the easiest.

Thanks.
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I've owned the NEC that you ordered for about a month now. Rest assured, you will have good blacks. :D I played Doom3 on the 2001fp and saw the same thing you saw. This isn't a problem with the Viewsonic in particular....it's a problem with all LCDs. Their contrast ratio sucks.

DL the naviset software from NEC....it will make calibration much easier than the canned hard button controls on the monitor.

I don't know what to tell you to make you feel better. LCDs are in their comparative infancy. So many people here pee their panties over them 'cause they are thin and they have the 'wow' factor. They just don't perform as well as CRTs. You saw the problems with blacks.....other LCDs ghost badly and/or have backlight or pixel issues. Whatever. Live and learn. Ebay the LCD and you'll probably do OK.
 
I have an LCD. Play all games, Doom 3, HL2, CS Source. Never had a color or ghosting problem. The blacks look black and the blues look blue.

NEC MultiSync LCD 1760V
 
Greenwit said:
I've owned the NEC that you ordered for about a month now. Rest assured, you will have good blacks. :D

DL the navisoft software from NEC....it will make calibration much easier than the canned hard button controls on the monitor.
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Do you notice any buzzing or high pitched sounds coming from your monitor? At least enough to drive you mad? :D

Question about the navisoft software. Does it write your settings to the monitor, or is it strictly software? I wouldn't want to lose settings on the monitor if I had to reformat.
 
I love when people use LCDs with IPS panels and based on that say all LCDs have very poor blacks and contrast ratio.
 
ajm786 said:
Do you notice any buzzing or high pitched sounds coming from your monitor? At least enough to drive you mad? :D

Question about the navisoft software. Does it write your settings to the monitor, or is it strictly software? I wouldn't want to lose settings on the monitor if I had to reformat.
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I own an NEC FP912 (beautiful 19 inch CRT!) and I use Naviset to make adjustments easily. It changes the settings directly in the monitor, so even if you change HDs or wipe the OS or whatever, the monitor will have the settings.

I also have not had noticeable buzzing from the CRT, or any CRT I've used for that matter.
 
The 2405FPW is a PVA panel yes? I have had two and I believe the black level, though improved over the 2001FP, still isn't great. There is still a noticeable milky glow to it when the room is dark.
 
ajm786 said:
Do you notice any buzzing or high pitched sounds coming from your monitor? At least enough to drive you mad? :D

Question about the navisoft software. Does it write your settings to the monitor, or is it strictly software? I wouldn't want to lose settings on the monitor if I had to reformat.
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Monitor is silent. Where the setting are stored, I don't know to be honest.

Regarding the black question from my friend Roger ;) , note that black resolution is a technological issue that is not only present in computer monitors but the highest of the high end high definition televisions. Black resolution displayed by the various technologies goes something like this....CRT>plasma>DLPs>LCDs. Yup, LCDs are dead last. The very best rear projection CRTs have a contrast ratio around 6,000:1 (i.e., Pioneer Elite HD televisions). With computer CRTs and direct vision CRTs it is somewhat less because of the reflection of light on the phosphor elements on the tubes themselves. Still, it is better than the <1K contrast ratio of the Dells. In fact I believe their ratios are somewhere in the realm of 600:1. Whatever the number it appears that both the Dells and Viewsonics give you milky grays at best.
 
Greenwit said:
Monitor is silent. Where the setting are stored, I don't know to be honest.

Regarding the black question from my friend Roger ;) , note that black resolution is a technological issue that is not only present in computer monitors but the highest of the high end high definition televisions. Black resolution displayed by the various technologies goes something like this....CRT>plasma>DLPs>LCDs. Yup, LCDs are dead last. The very best rear projection CRTs have a contrast ratio around 6,000:1 (i.e., Pioneer Elite HD televisions). With computer CRTs and direct vision CRTs it is somewhat less because of the reflection of light on the phosphor elements on the tubes themselves. Still, it is better than the <1K contrast ratio of the Dells. In fact I believe their ratios are somewhere in the realm of 600:1. Whatever the number it appears that both the Dells and Viewsonics give you milky grays at best.
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The real contrast ratio of the 2001FP (and the Viewsonic, which uses the same panel) is not higher than 200:1 so not all LCDs shuld be judged based on them :) Yes, I'm perfectly aware that a CRT will give you better blacks in most conditions, especially in low lightning, but newer PVA panels from Samsung are making a real progress and are getting better and better. Their black levels are already under 0.1cd/m2 which is a very deep black. Even deeper than some mid range CRTs can do. The black level was one of my biggest concerns when I was buying an LCD so I'm pretty picky when it comes to that. And yet, I'm prefectly happy with the way my 1000:1 contrast ratio LCD displays the black color :)

If you already haven't, try working on some newer PVA models from Samsung. I think you'd be surprised how much of a difference there is compared to the Dell you had when it comes to black color and contrast ratio :)
 
Like I said in my first post, I cannot ever play a game whose theme is dark on a monitor that gives me milky gray. And with the pending release of Shadows of the Metal Age (www.thief2x.com) I cannot afford it.

This is my first LCD, and, until LCD technology can advance to the levels that a CRT will afford me, it will be my last.
 
corrosive23 said:
The blacks look really damn black on my 2001fp
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:confused:

Care telling me what your color/contrast/brightness settings are? Whether or not you are using DVI? No matter what I did, I couldn't get my panel to get anywhere close to black.

In Windows, blacks look black. In Doom 3 and Thief, it looks milky gray. If we are using basically the same panel, I can't see how black your blacks can be.
 
ajm786 said:
:confused:

Care telling me what your color/contrast/brightness settings are? Whether or not you are using DVI? No matter what I did, I couldn't get my panel to get anywhere close to black.

In Windows, blacks look black. In Doom 3 and Thief, it looks milky gray. If we are using basically the same panel, I can't see how black your blacks can be.
Click to expand...

Dude, if the same monitor display proper blacks in windows but not in games, it's a driver/config issue, not a monitor issue. :D
 
ajm786 said:
:confused:

Care telling me what your color/contrast/brightness settings are? Whether or not you are using DVI? No matter what I did, I couldn't get my panel to get anywhere close to black.

In Windows, blacks look black. In Doom 3 and Thief, it looks milky gray. If we are using basically the same panel, I can't see how black your blacks can be.
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LCDs don't do black....I had the 2001fp and try as I might, Doom 3 did not show black. Here's a test for you.....set the OS screen saver to 'blank' (Win XP) and the wait time to one minute. You'll have (after one minute), what should be, a black screen. It isn't with LCDs. Turn off the lights and you'll really see how bad it is.....a milky gray. And as a bonus you'll see backlighting in all its glory. That's LCD technology for you. :p LCD owners just ignore the fact or don't accept it.
 
Greenwit said:
LCDs don't do black....I had the 2001fp and try as I might, Doom 3 did not show black. Here's a test for you.....set the OS screen saver to 'blank' (Win XP) and the wait time to one minute. You'll have (after one minute), what should be, a black screen. It isn't with LCDs. Turn off the lights and you'll really see how bad it is.....a milky gray. And as a bonus you'll see backlighting in all its glory. That's LCD technology for you. :p LCD owners just ignore the fact or don't accept it.
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we also dont get eye strain from watching a tube cycling at 60 hz
 
I have a ImageQuest L70S

I was reading this page and then i looked at the background of this web page wich is black and it looks really really black to me.

can someone post a picture or explain what ghosting or milky grays really means

maybe my screen has this but i just don't see it
 
ryanrule said:
we also dont get eye strain from watching a tube cycling at 60 hz
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If you're stupid enough to use your CRT at 60Hz, you deserve to get eye strain ;) As for the black thing, some people have never seen a good LCD in their life so it's pointless to agrue with them. They are basing their opinion on the whole technology off a monitor that is known to have the worst blacks and contrast ratio of all LCDs. It's best to let them live in their ignorance and their (geometrically incorrect :p ) CRTs :D
 
There are no current LCD's on the market from the $300 to the $6000 ones that will properly display blacks equal to a CRT.

The basic technolgy behind current LCD's will not allow for perfect blacks...

The black levels are good enough for most people on the quality panels but if your picky about your black levels then you need to wait for OLED Panels.
 
TheGameguru said:
There are no current LCD's on the market from the $300 to the $6000 ones that will properly display blacks equal to a CRT.

The basic technolgy behind current LCD's will not allow for perfect blacks...

The black levels are good enough for most people on the quality panels but if your picky about your black levels then you need to wait for OLED Panels.
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I agree totally, the blacks on my sony xblack monitor are very deep black, but i do see a backlight issue, however it doesnt bother me that much that i want o sell my monitor and go back to crt
 
TheGameguru said:
There are no current LCD's on the market from the $300 to the $6000 ones that will properly display blacks equal to a CRT.

The basic technolgy behind current LCD's will not allow for perfect blacks...

The black levels are good enough for most people on the quality panels but if your picky about your black levels then you need to wait for OLED Panels.
Click to expand...
Or SED: http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=895221

A 100,000:1 contrast ratio ought to be enough to satisfy even the most picky individuals :)
 
Lake said:
Thief.
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how insightful....

while i acknowlege the problem, given a decent quality lcd i can stand it. there are enough advantages to an lcd for me to regularly use one.
 
WoW after reading this thread I really dont know what I should do now? I was in the market for a new display to get rid of my old sony multi scan 200 17 inch. but after readuing issues with colors and blackness etc, I don't know if I should get a flat screen. I just love vivid images when playing eq2 and other rpg games. I'm really into graphics. I even bough two geforce 6600gt SLI express. Th eonly reason as to why I wanted to go to flat I was thinking that 8 mill response time and 700/1 contrast ratio was perfect for any pro gammer that wanted to see great images no ghosting and truley see black colors.

Which leaves me in doubt shoudl I be looking at new crt monitors or should I go with flat. I am looking at atleast 19 inch. would liek bigger but didnt like the quality of thenew dell display since it has really 16 mil secomnd respomse time.
 
Sweetnsexy said:
WoW after reading this thread I really dont know what I should do now? I was in the market for a new display to get rid of my old sony multi scan 200 17 inch. but after readuing issues with colors and blackness etc, I don't know if I should get a flat screen. I just love vivid images when playing eq2 and other rpg games. I'm really into graphics. I even bough two geforce 6600gt SLI express. Th eonly reason as to why I wanted to go to flat I was thinking that 8 mill response time and 700/1 contrast ratio was perfect for any pro gammer that wanted to see great images no ghosting and truley see black colors.

Which leaves me in doubt shoudl I be looking at new crt monitors or should I go with flat. I am looking at atleast 19 inch. would liek bigger but didnt like the quality of thenew dell display since it has really 16 mil secomnd respomse time.
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I'm thinking your best bet is to get a CRT. A new quality one, like the NEC/Mitsubishi line. The contrast ratio, as I found out, is not high enough to compare to CRT. Avoid the headache and get a CRT.
 
I recently purchased my first LCD, the 24" Dell 2405FPW.

One of the first things I noticed with it is the black levels. One of the things I rather liked about my old CRT screen and my television were the awsome black levels, you couldn't even tell the screens were turned on in a pitch black room. The Dell display seems to have great black levels in most instances, but once you start looking at entirely dark scenes it starts looking a bit muddy. I knew the blacks wouldn't be as black, but it still took me by suprised. I had never before seen an LCD screen in a pitch black room, so I really had no way of knowing how it would look. Do LCD TV's suffer this same problem? Wouldn't that be a problem for DVD movie watchers since its almost always in a dark room?

Despite the not perfect blacks, the contrast ratio seems to be really great, and I think this partially makes up for the deficiency. As long as the difference between a lit and unlit object in a scene is substantial enough I can look past the imperfect blacks, and I think it looks great for the most part.

I loaded up my old CRT and couldn't believe how much better the Dell looked. I guess my focus on the black level caused me to overlook all of the things that the display did better.... which is pretty much everything. Everything is so bright and vivid, there's some much real-esate.... it really is a shame that LCD's still suffer this black issue since otherwise it would be dang near perfect.
 
Roger said:
If you're stupid enough to use your CRT at 60Hz, you deserve to get eye strain ;) As for the black thing, some people have never seen a good LCD in their life so it's pointless to agrue with them. They are basing their opinion on the whole technology off a monitor that is known to have the worst blacks and contrast ratio of all LCDs. It's best to let them live in their ignorance and their (geometrically incorrect :p ) CRTs :D
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um all crt's run at that, or 75 hx sometimes.
 
Roger said:
Yeah, but we will probably have to wait for SED monitors just as long as we'll wait for OLED.
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All signs point towards SED beating OLED to the 15+" display market. OLED displays are currently limited to small (<10") displays, with issues regarding the scaling and longevity of the colours (blue in particular) still forming a fundamental problem.
BTW do you have any links of SED prototype TVs with some pictures and specs, if there is such a thing yet?
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http://www.dvdtown.com/messageboard/topic/10/11486/
http://blog.sagetechnology.com/techsage/archive/2004/09/29/236.aspx
http://www.pcworldmalta.com/news/2004/Dec/071.htm >
Toshiba Corp. plans to launch a television based on a new flat-panel display technology called SED (Surface-conduction Electron-emitter Display) in 2005, a company executive said Friday.
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http://ultimateavmag.com/thomasjnorton/105tjna/ >
And if that isn't cutting-edge enough for you, I was floored by yet another new development at the recent CEATEC in Japan—Japan's CES. SED, for Surface-conduction Electron-emitter Display, is a phosphor-based, flat-panel technology like plasma. But with SED, the phosphors are ignited by an electron beam—just as in a CRT. Unlike a conventional CRT, however, the SED panel has a separate beam for each pixel. An electronic beam can be shut off when you need to reproduce black, so it's not surprising that the 36-inch prototype on display boasted a contrast ratio of 8600:1!

The image produced on this relatively small screen was amazing. Side by side with both an LCD and a plasma, it looked like a CRT, with all the strengths of that classic technology—excellent black levels, fine shadow detail without false contours, and no image lag. The program material used for the demonstrations was genuinely challenging, with dark shadows and deep blacks. For a rough idea of what I saw, a screenshot from the SED display was published in the article "CEATEC Japan 2004" posted on our website on October 18, 2004. It's still available in the news archives there.
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http://computerworld.com.my/ShowPage.aspx?pagetype=2&articleid=856&pubid=3&issueid=45 >
Toshiba Corp. has revealed more about its plans for a new type of flat-panel TV based on SED (surface-conduction electron-emitter display) technology. The company will start trial production of SED TVs measuring 50 inches or more across the diagonal in August and will have the first products on shelves in Japan before the end of March 2006, a Toshiba engineer said Wednesday.
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ryanrule said:
um all crt's run at that, or 75 hx sometimes.
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only if they suck, or you're running them at ridiculously high resolutions. a decent crt should be able to break 100.
 
Darth Bagel said:
only if they suck, or you're running them at ridiculously high resolutions. a decent crt should be able to break 100.
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still, its flickering, and that aint good for teh eyes
 
Ok, if you haven't figured it out by now LCDs aren't supposed to be used in dark rooms. They are for well lit rooms with the brightness up, it will show the blacks better and you wont see the backlight bleed. For those of you that want to use your monitors in a dark room (bad for your eyes) you should stick to CRT, IMHO
 
crt in a dark room is one of the worst possible combinations for my eyes. i dunno about everybody else, but that induces a mind-splitting headache in mere minutes.

and i absolutely agree with you ryanrule, that's why i don't use crt's at all any more. no matter what the refresh rate, i could see them flicker, and that hurts my eyes.
 
Darth Bagel said:
crt in a dark room is one of the worst possible combinations for my eyes. i dunno about everybody else, but that induces a mind-splitting headache in mere minutes.

and i absolutely agree with you ryanrule, that's why i don't use crt's at all any more. no matter what the refresh rate, i could see them flicker, and that hurts my eyes.
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Try playing Thief or Doom in a lit room. It's not really possible, and it surely isn't immersive.
 
I was responding to videogamer, not you. I fully understand that it's hard as hell playing Thief in a well-lit room.
 
Darth Bagel said:
I was responding to videogamer, not you. I fully understand that it's hard as hell playing Thief in a well-lit room.
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Oops. Sorry then. :)
 
You guys are funny. And the debate rages on just as it has for years in the AVS forum. My monitor isn't "perfect"? Horrors... I've got news for you guys...nothing in life is. Each technology has its pros and cons. Some like one, some like the other. These arguments are pointless. Don't you have better things to do with your time?
 
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