I have too much money?

TeeJayHoward

TeeJayHoward

Limpness Supreme
Joined
Feb 8, 2005
Messages
12,274
YAY! My paycheck was $50 more than I expected!

So, rather than get a $140 320GB SATA drive, I'm thinking I may spend all my extra cash and put $250 towards an H2O setup.

Okay, so I've got $250 in my account right now I can dedicate to this. My system is listed in my sig, it's currently cooled by the stock heatsink/fan combo. I recall reading somewhere on this forum that 1/2" ID tubing is no longer required for a nice WC setup. Is this true? What kind of temps can I expect with a $250 setup, and does anyone care to blow $250 for me?

(Yeah, I've done research, and I'm about to do more, but I figured asking wouldn't hurt, right? I really want one of those AquaComputer blocks, they're beautiful. The DD rads are nice, too...)

Edit: Should mention - It's only gotta cool the CPU, but it's gotta cool it rather well. I've gotten stable at 1.7V at 2.65Ghz, but the temps were 70C!

Edit2: Quick prelim shopping - Current cart setup:

TDX Block
D5 Pump
Black Ice XtremeII Radiator
Tygon 3603 Tubing 1/2" ID 3/4" OD (8 feet)
226 Watt Peltier
Danger Den Fillport
Polypropylene "T"
___________________________________
$242

Whatdaya think?
 
How about you send it to me? or here is a shocker save the money?
 
Get the new Storm Block!!!
stormrender4cu.gif


http://www.swiftnets.com/products/Storm.asp
 
Spectre said:
How about you send it to me? or here is a shocker save the money?
Click to expand...

I'm hurt and saddened by your post. SAVE the money? Granted, I could get a phase change setup with $500, but is it REALLY worth saving? Is H2O just not [H]ard anymore?
 
TeeJayHoward said:
I'm hurt and saddened by your post. SAVE the money? Granted, I could get a phase change setup with $500, but is it REALLY worth saving? Is H2O just not [H]ard anymore?
Click to expand...

:p I would save it personally but I stick with air cooling
 
Well how about a Cuplex Pro?
cpx-pro-logo-lg.gif


Or a Cuplex XT?
cpx-xt-a64-lg.gif


You can easily mate either of these blocks to a Laing DDC that has 3/8 native barbs or down the line you could have a little fun and mod it with this Watercool DDC plexi top. However, I don't know how well these blocks will work with a peltier as no one that I know of has put one on.
 
Ya, I figure I'll just throw in two 120mm quiet average CFM fans.

And the pelt for the hell of it. Any reason I shouldn't? Not worth it? (You'll note I didn't include hose clamps either, oops!)

The Cuplex XT is BEAUTIFUL. If DD didn't have a deal on the pump/block setup, I would definately consider it.
 
TeeJayHoward said:
Ya, I figure I'll just throw in two 120mm quiet average CFM fans.
Click to expand...
If you're going for quiet/average fans, the Black Ice Pro is more suitable. The BIX only shines with high CFM fans
 
have you ever used a pelt before? Do you know the amount of work/skill it takes to do a insulation setup on a coldplate/mobo? It isn't easy, and you'll certainly need neoprene, dow corning, and something to fill the CPU socket. Not to mention you'll need to make sure the waterblock comes with a coldplate, and that your PSU can handle that pelt.
 
TeeJayHoward said:
I'm hurt and saddened by your post. SAVE the money? Granted, I could get a phase change setup with $500, but is it REALLY worth saving? Is H2O just not [H]ard anymore?
Click to expand...
a standard phase setup like a vapochill is for posers....if you want to be [H]ard build your own cascade system or go the weird and alternate route, pelts baby... I have more respect for do it yourself water cooling guys than I do the rich kid with the vapochill
 
STORM waterblock by Swiftech : 75$
BIPII Radiator from DD : 35$
Laing D5 pump from DD : 75$
7/16" ID Tubing : 15$
HDPE Bay Res : 20$
Clamps, fans, misc : 30$ or less

Total - 250$


That is the setup I would recommend. Realize that a 226W pelt would require you to get a dedicated powersupply for it most likely which would cost you even more, unless you have a spare PSU lying around that has enough amperage on the 12V rail.
 
Erasmus354 said:
STORM waterblock by Swiftech : 75$
BIPII Radiator from DD : 35$
Laing D5 pump from DD : 75$
7/16" ID Tubing : 15$
HDPE Bay Res : 20$
Clamps, fans, misc : 30$ or less

Total - 250$


That is the setup I would recommend. Realize that a 226W pelt would require you to get a dedicated powersupply for it most likely which would cost you even more, unless you have a spare PSU lying around that has enough amperage on the 12V rail.
Click to expand...
yea you would need a meanwell industrial psu and probably a higher watt pelt than 226w....also you need to insulate the psu somehow because i had a pelt setup once and my meanwell psu caused all kinds of interference
 
Instead of a pelt, is there a rad that would fit in the 2x 80mm exhaust fans place on your average chieftec chassis? (I've got an ATC-710)
 
Pelts are not worth it. For the gain you would get in cooling in comparison to watercooling with respect to the hassle and the actual cooling improvement, it is not worth it. Insulating the pelts is a pain to deal with. You then have to cool the hot side with essentially watercooling. On top of that, it takes a massive wattage pelt to deal with the heat load coming out of the cpu. Not taking into account the fact that you will need a 500W+ PS to deal with a 150W+ pelt, fans, watercooler and your components. I have gone down that dark path and after all the extra money spent (awhile ago), I got essentially a few degrees improvement over the watercooler I had that had to be used to cool the pelt system.
From your prelim components as well as Erasmus' recommendation, I think you should have a pretty good kit. Trust me, there is really only a few degrees C difference between the components you guys have and the best you can possibly get out there. I have a kit from Asetek that Overclockers.com tested and deemed as one of the two best (based on their database) and it only cooled about 2-3C cooler than the Koolance exos kit I had installed (that is now used to individually cool the BFG 6800gt oc).
Good luck and congrats with the extra pay.
 
a peltier will offer some serious cooling power, and matched right will take the CPU well below 0C. But be prepared to insulate a coldplate that is ~ -30C.
 
mikelz85 said:
a peltier will offer some serious cooling power, and matched right will take the CPU well below 0C. But be prepared to insulate a coldplate that is ~ -30C.
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your right pelt cooling if done right can be just as good as phase, also insulation isnt really a problem because there are plenty of kits that come with all the appropriate gaskets... for example http://www.frozencpu.com/ex-blc-134.html?id=EPqokCYx + this insulation kit http://www.frozencpu.com/ex-blc-143.html?id=EPqokCYx of course I have to say pelt cooling isnt cheap and its gonna run you alot higher than $250 but its definitely more l337 :D
 
Also, you can get some seriously bad system failures in a pelt system. Do a forum search for I believe it was DFI_Daishi who had his pump fail, the pelt got hot enough to melt the acrylic and sodder.
 
Erasmus354 said:
Also, you can get some seriously bad system failures in a pelt system. Do a forum search for I believe it was DFI_Daishi who had his pump fail, the pelt got hot enough to melt the acrylic and sodder.
Click to expand...
but thats exactly why a pelt system demands more respect...because its [H]ard :D
 
TeeJayHoward said:
Ya, I figure I'll just throw in two 120mm quiet average CFM fans.

And the pelt for the hell of it. Any reason I shouldn't? Not worth it? (You'll note I didn't include hose clamps either, oops!)

The Cuplex XT is BEAUTIFUL. If DD didn't have a deal on the pump/block setup, I would definately consider it.
Click to expand...

You can't use a peltier with the tdx because it does not have enough cooling area to cover the whole hot side.
 
mota said:
You can't use a peltier with the tdx because it does not have enough cooling area to cover the whole hot side.
Click to expand...
not only that but hes gonna need an industrial psu (like a meanwell) which run about $120 which means its out of his price range
 
I think the thing to clarify is that a peltier is not just a device you can throw into a watercooling system without effort. It involves serious reading, and skill, as even with the right tools, a large piece of copper at -30c (like the coldplate) can be hard to insulate correctly, even the smallest gap/opening/thin insulation, will result in a TON of frost (worse than condensation) which in turn melts, and creates huge problems. Not to mention greasing the socket, silicone RTV (or dow corning, much better) everywhere, managing neoprene thickness, and of course the added heat of a peltier can be a hard load for any radiator to deal with. My first and only attempt at pelts involved a techne RB5 lab bath, a 172 watt pelt, a nice 24v power supply with 40 amps, a maze block with coldplate, and of course a tbird. Needless to say, I couldn't get the insulation right, and the whole deal is still in the closet, except for the lab bath which is on my venice (once I get it all insulated correctly). I'd be willing to bet that the system done correctly could have given a vapochill a serious run for the money, but it just isn't worth all the headaches.
 
*le sigh*

Damned tuition downpayments are cutting into my H2O fund! Looks like it's not gonna happen :(
 
why did this thread have to crop up while i was at my aunt's cottage for the weekend, anyways?

from the top: those aqua computers blocks are also totally unsuited for peltier cooling applications, for the same reason as the TDX (see comment near bottom), with the additional problem that they do not support sufficient tubing size to get rapid enough coolant flow-through to keep a usefully powerfull pelt decently cool.

to keep a pelt rig cool enough to work properly with reasonable noise levels, you need a 3 or 4 120mm fan/rad solution. you should't get the pelt, because i doubt that you realize just how expensive it is to execute.

i honestly didn't find insulating things to be all that difficult. masking tape and several coats of spray on conformal coating to take care of the mobo and cards, dielectric grease on the pins and in the sockets/slots, and trace the outline of the pletier coadplate to make cutouts in several sheets of neoprene of the correct thicknesses.

you definately need a dedicated PSU to run the pelts. meanwell 320 for 226 CPU and a 80 watt GPU, or the 600 for something like the 473 watt bad-boy in the dominator pro/arctic web assemblies.

magnuspah used too small a pelt, too small a rad and tried to run his pelt off of a computer PSU. he made mistakes at every step of the way.

mikelz85 bang on.

cell_491 don't kid yourself, it's not as good as phase. it DOES, however offer the option of cooling a GPU in the same solution as the CPU, which makes it an easier pill to swallow in some ways. those are the kinds of pelts that anyone who wants beneficial pelt cooling should be looking at these days. however, for that ana GPU, you're looking at 6 x 120mm fan/rad cooling, to maintain low noise. :eek:

actually, there is no underscore in my handle. the hosting for the photos i put up in that old thread has run out, so it looses most of it's impact. to be precise, though. it melted solder, and it BOILED luxite plastic, as well as burning dielectric greese and plastic hose, and converting socket plastic and neoprene gasket to a brittle, crumbly substance. it just smelled awfull when i got home. the moral is : set up a proper relay to shut things dow if the computer shuts off.

mota has it right, and someone should have pointed this out earlier. the TDX also lacks the mounting holes to attach the cold plate to the block.

once you have everything insulated and waterproofed properly, a little condensation or frost just isn't the end of the world. however, the whole proposition IS a lot of work, and not without risks. a 172 watt pelt isn't going to do a whole lot for you, though. it's unlikely to even get you 10C below ambient while overclocked, with good coolant temps.

oh well, tips are now up for those interested.

additional considerations: you need a BIG case to fit everything into, unless you want some serious headachs and sacrifices before the job is done. modern cores don't benifit as much from super-low temps as the old ones did. it's probably not going to help as much as you would think.

pelt cooling is difficult, and i don't reccomend it in any way, shape or form, for a first timer. i did it my first time out, and i just about burned down my family's house.

it can also be very gratifying.
 
DFI Daishi said:
from the top: those aqua computers blocks are also totally unsuited for peltier cooling applications, for the same reason as the TDX (see comment near bottom), with the additional problem that they do not support sufficient tubing size to get rapid enough coolant flow-through to keep a usefully powerfull pelt decently cool.
Click to expand...
LOL... now that was funny!

Before I put my Storm block with 8mm plug n cool fittings in my rig I will put a pelt on the CuplexXT just to prove you wrong. If it doesn't work it won't be due to inadequate cooling you f00l.

DFI Daishi said:
modern cores don't benifit as much from super-low temps as the old ones did. it's probably not going to help as much as you would think.
Click to expand...
You have got to be kidding me. Why is it all the records are with dual stage cascade style -100c cooling?
 
R1ckCa1n said:
LOL... now that was funny!

Before I put my Storm block with 8mm plug n cool fittings in my rig I will put a pelt on the CuplexXT just to prove you wrong. If it doesn't work it won't be due to inadequate cooling you f00l.
Click to expand...
apples and oranges, pal. your CPU does not put out around 250 watts load. a pelt plus an OC'd CPU does. just because those blocks are adequate for one thing does not mean that are adequate for another.

notice that i also outlined why a the TDX and RBX are unsuited for pelt cooling. nice, big-bore blocks, that are also unsuited to pelt applications.

pumping power is another problem. the coolant heats up faster within the block, so you need to move it through faster to maintain reasonable delta Ts throughout the system. small hoses and barbs inhibit this.

use your head, instead of your brand loyalty before you post somthing like this.

R1ckCa1n said:
You have got to be kidding me. Why is it all the records are with dual stage cascade style -100c cooling?
Click to expand...
yes, world record attemps are done at mega-low temps, to get every last drop out of that chip.

for everyday uses, you have to look at what's the performance between 40C and 30C? 20 C? 10 C? 0 C? .... -30 C? -40 C.......?

do the performance jumps stay the same size? no, they get smaller and always have. now, it's increasing true. it used to be an added 1% improvement for every 1 C below 0 C. not it's more like 0.3% for the first while, and even less than that, the lower you go.

since the price keeps going up astronomically the lower you get, as the longevity goes down, this is not something to be concerned about for day to day computing, but is rather confined to world record attempts.

edit: oh yeah, and a storm is also unsuited for use with pelts, since it also only cools the center of the block well. the same reason that the others are bad for this kind of work.
 
cell_491 said:
not only that but hes gonna need an industrial psu (like a meanwell) which run about $120 which means its out of his price range
Click to expand...

Well, I see suitable TEC supplies all the time surplus that are going for about $25-35 a piece.
 
DFI Daishi said:
notice that i also outlined why a the TDX and RBX are unsuited for pelt cooling. nice, big-bore blocks, that are also unsuited to pelt applications.
Click to expand...
It would have been fine to leave it at the RBX and TDX but you just couldn't resist. :rolleyes:
 
How about spending the $250 on an Nvidia 6800Non-Ultra to replace that 5700Ultra. Then when you get another $50 or so to spend, buy a high end air cooler for your processor.
 
R1ckCa1n said:
It would have been fine to leave it at the RBX and TDX but you just couldn't resist. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...
perhaps you didn't notice, however i posted something in respons to almost every post in the order that the posts were made. a certain someone put up links/pics for the A-C blocks, so i noted why they were unsuited to this partiucular application.

this application and no other application, i might add.

i noted why those specific DD blocks were not suitable for pelt opperation since they were also mentioned.
 
Top Nurse said:
Well, I see suitable TEC supplies all the time surplus that are going for about $25-35 a piece.
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do you have a link, or is a retail store?

feeding userfully powerfull pelts requires some serious juice, serious radiating capacity, and quite a lot of flow, however you choose to get it.

as i noted in a previous thread, A-C blocks would probably be better suited to a chilled liquid setup than a TEC block solution.
 
No retail store as I see them at the TRW swapmeet and a few surplus electronic houses on occassion. So do you think the Storm block would be suitable for a pelt? How about an AC Cuplex 1.3 or an AC Cuplex Evo?
 
IMHO, storm isn't that good for pelt... Old maze design probably would work best with pelt. Keep in mind, we don't have HOT SPOT once you put pelt in there... its... hot plate... So even cooling across dimension of pelt is optimal... which maze block design actually did best at... (which would suck for normal water cooling due to localized heat pattern on heat spreader).
There are reasons I stepped out of pelt while back.
1) Inefficiency for cooling performance. Be it electric bill, cost involved (anyone dreaming Tec cooling is cheap should start adding things up correctly instead of being delusional).
2) Complexity of system. There need to be multiple fail safe method. Forget pump not running... if your pelt is unpowered for some reason... you basically insulated damned cpu... (ever ran cpu without any heatsink? It will be worse).
3) I've head pelt on GPU and CPU back in p4 2.4b days and frigging thing probably did output about 300-400W of heat out through couple of heatercores. Thing was hot... room heater for sure.
There are many advantages to single phase cooling solution such as vaporchill or what not on those above 3 account. Only thing with phasechange cooling is that the compressors are not designed to last too long (but than so isn't pelt) and any repair and modification on phasechange do start cost a lot...

People mentioning things [H] or not should take a back seat and think twice. (especially those that haven't even tried this things) before speaking so boldly. I am taking back seat now but I might get a single phase unit custom made on bottom half of my lian-li v 2000 case
 
Top Nurse said:
No retail store as I see them at the TRW swapmeet and a few surplus electronic houses on occassion. So do you think the Storm block would be suitable for a pelt? How about an AC Cuplex 1.3 or an AC Cuplex Evo?
Click to expand...
i said that the storm was UNsuited.

pretty much all of the modern, high performance, blocks are not well suited for pelt opperation.

if you want to use A-C or other modern blocks with pelts, then use them on the cold loop of a system like this http://www.swiftnets.com/products/MCWCHILL-452.asp and run a pair of BIP2 rads and MCP350s to cool the hot sides, one for each block.

i can get more into this if you really want......
 
Why wouldn't the Cuplex 1.3 be good? It is about as basic of a waterblock as the come. It's really more a high flow block than anything else.
 
Top Nurse said:
Why wouldn't the Cuplex 1.3 be good? It is about as basic of a waterblock as the come. It's really more a high flow block than anything else.
Click to expand...

Its not about being basic. Its about having enough cooling area to cool a pelt. The Cuplex does seem to have a larger area for water to get to, but from what I can see in that pic its still not the desired cooling area.
 
Top Nurse said:
Why wouldn't the Cuplex 1.3 be good? It is about as basic of a waterblock as the come. It's really more a high flow block than anything else.
Click to expand...
that snakey multiple pass coolant path, in combination with small tubing sizes is the first problem that i see with it.

with a heat load of 250ish watts, you want coolant to go into and come out of the block pretty damn fast. for the same reasons as usual, that block is not conducive to rapid coolant flow, and would require insane pumping power to work in the way that you want it to.

additionally, although i don't have the dimensions on hand, that block does not look like it has a copper bottom that is bigger than 50mm by 50mm, which is the bare minimum that you should be looking for. you need 50 mm each way for the pelt, and some additional space to drill and tap holes for the cold plate's mounting system.

there are 40-45 mm pelts out there, however for a worthwhile drop in temps, you should be looking at a pelt that has AT LEAST double the wattage of the expected output from you CPU when overclocked. i have not seen a pelt in that power range that is anything smaller than a 50x50 size.

pelt cooling is expensive and isn't easy, so if you're going to do it you should shoot for something that will actually drop your temps substantially and hopefull help you OC a fair bit, so that you get a return on your investment.

take a real look at the internal structures of blocks that are actually intended for pelt applications:
http://www.swiftnets.com/products/mcw5002-64T.asp
http://www.dangerdenstore.com/home.php?cat=20
http://www.silverprop.com/cycloneevost.aspx
 
if u get a pely. pray to whatever god u believe in or not believe in (whatever works) that u dont have to pay the electric bill, the electric meter (on the side of ur house) spins like a top... not joking
 
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