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I hate IDE cables. What to do?

D

Decker87

Limp Gawd
Joined
Mar 24, 2005
Messages
415
Well, SATA seemed like a good alternative to the bulky and clumsy IDE cables, however, I've read quite a bit of hype about SATA being kinda bad. I think I read a warning somewhere not to have two active SATA cables right next to eachother? Well, that's a problem. Is SATA really that bad? I'm sick of these big IDE cables.

Also, my next build will likely had one hard drive and two optical drives. I might get another HD as well. Don't most mobos have just two SATA headers? I know mine does. Does this mean I can only use SATA devices? Also,
 
I don't know what you have read or where but SATA is awesome. I've built lots of systems using SATA HDD's sometimes single, sometimes multiple and RAID configurations and have never had a single problem.
 
i use sata raid my self .. the cables have to be ran next to each other due to case config, the also run past several power wires from the psu as well as other ide cables and a 110v line that is running my pump, i didnt have any trouble untill i installed the 5th ide hardrive, the cable runs nowhere near them but the power cable runs damn near parallel and cut the speed down from 290mb/s (raid burst) down to 66 mb/s (raid burst) all it took was a littel shielding on the sata cables and it went back up to 300mb/s never had any trouble with data currption or any thing..

thore
 
Yeah SATA cables aren't shielded, but I don't think it's a problem as long as you don't strap them together or anything, and avoid electromagnetic interference... SATA is good though.

You could get rounded IDE cables (look for shielded), or practice your IDE oragami skills :) I usually just fold mine using a metal ruler to make the folds, and also use a little hot glue to hold some spots in place.
 
Yeah, SATA cables to have crosstalk issues - search the web and you will find some sources offering shielded SATA cables. They are worth it once you start putting in lots of hard drives and want to manage cabling using nylon ties.

Also, if you want to stick to IDE, get the rounded cables - they look nicer, lots come shielded and are better for airflow inside the case vs standard ribbon cables.

Bending ribbon cables is not really good as you are breaking the internal wiring, which will eventually result in breakage & poor connections. This is particularly relevant if you do frequent upgrades/work inside your computer.
 
and some mobos offer more sata connectors, mine i think has four sata and 2 sata2
 
pawstar said:
Yeah, SATA cables to have crosstalk issues - search the web and you will find some sources offering shielded SATA cables. They are worth it once you start putting in lots of hard drives and want to manage cabling using nylon ties.

Also, if you want to stick to IDE, get the rounded cables - they look nicer, lots come shielded and are better for airflow inside the case vs standard ribbon cables.

Bending ribbon cables is not really good as you are breaking the internal wiring, which will eventually result in breakage & poor connections. This is particularly relevant if you do frequent upgrades/work inside your computer.
Click to expand...

^ ;)


to which people inevitably say "Im having no issues"
well you might be and not know it since ATA resends garbbled data (it employs CRC)
generally both IDE and SATA can shout through the noise, but sheilded cables are ideal and if you cant swing that consider the EMF\EMI obeys the inverse square law so route your cables away from electromagnetic fields, ground planes and dont bundle the cables

http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=742083

how concerned you should be about the issue is directly tied to the value of your data
ATA is a very robust standard and this isn't a great likelyhood of data corruption, thats not the same as saying its not a possibility
 
anr11 said:
I don't know what you have read or where but SATA is awesome. I've built lots of systems using SATA HDD's sometimes single, sometimes multiple and RAID configurations and have never had a single problem.
Click to expand...

I 'read the stickies' as the saying goes. Thanks for the info, Czar. Even if I route the cables so they are a few inches apart, wouldn't I still get interference where they connect to the headers?

This might be a very basic question, but I just want to make sure this is correct:
IDE cables tend to have a master and a slave. SATA always just has a master, right?
 
that shouldnt be a great concern at the header
given that the signal strength is so weak crosstalk isnt typically a great issue
and since there isnt any great length of the cables next to each other the possiblity is next to impossible in just a short length

generally you dont even worry about all this unless your actually experiencing issues
and youd need a strong EMF field (like running next to an fan or motor) or considerable length of wire bundled side by side to even begin to see it.

other applications are far more sensitive, like say thermocouple wire\sensors where miniscule currents are measured, (If your running a Digidoc or other temperature device there is a prime candiate for shielding the wires the measured voltages of a thermistor could be seriously compromised ) as mentioned before most devices (Drives) are rather good at shouting through any noise on the line these days

shielded cables would mean you have near total freedom to bundle and run cables through typical EMF fields in a case, but even with unshielded cable actually experincing a noise level serious enough to compromise the data signals is hit and miss

as speeds have increase this has become a greater issue, first necessitating ground wires interspersed with data wires when IDE changed from 40 to 80, and finally with serial adoption over parrallel (SATA vs PATA\IDE) but all in all "stock" wires generally suffice.

one area of possible concern would be windowed PSU that lack a proper shield because of the window and have strong EMF fields, or running right over a DC motor in a fan or pump, even worse would be a 110V AC motor in a pump, stronger current bigger EMF field

for the inverse square law, twice the distance from whatever field strength equals one quarter of the strength, so its all relative to both source strength and distance
 
pawstar said:
Bending ribbon cables is not really good as you are breaking the internal wiring, which will eventually result in breakage & poor connections. This is particularly relevant if you do frequent upgrades/work inside your computer.
Click to expand...
The wires bend, not break. I've never had a problem.
 
SATA cables also utilize differential signalling. That is, there is both a positive and negative signal for each data line. The value of the signal is taken from the difference in voltage between the positive and negative lines. In most cases, any external interference or crosstalk will affect both the positive and negative wires equally, so when the difference is taken the external interference is cancelled out (it will introduce a common-mode shift, but not a differential shift in voltage). This doesn't completely eliminate signalling issues caused by external interference, but very greatly reduces them.

Differential signalling, coupled with CRC values transmitted in every packet, are the reasons you can safely use unshielded SATA cables within a computer case.
 
ChingChang said:
The wires bend, not break. I've never had a problem.
Click to expand...

Yes, well of course they bend. The problem arrises with some of the stiffer ribbon cabling which people bend to sharp angles and it cracks after numerous movement. Try taking thin solid telephone cable and bending it back and forth a few times - it will break. Same thing happens with some of the IDE cables after sharp bending and unbending (rare but does happen)
 
not to mention that having IDE data wires adjecent to each other with just lousy PVC insulation between them sort of defeats the purpose of those intermittent groundwires :p
(a "typical" foldback for a 90 dgreee corner)

"stock" IDE cables leave alot to be desired, which is why we have SATA

there is a reason why an external SCSI cable costs an arm and a leg by comparision
and SCSI is a terminated protocol without all the added reflections from the end of the cable
unlike IDE

but as Ive already mentioned, these days IDE devices generally shout through the noise well enough


http://web.archive.org/web/20020827002242/http://www.vicstech.com/en/rd3xp/NoiseTest/
(click links)
 
PATA \ IDE

fd6qsi.gif


40 Wire (no grounds)


fd6qub.gif


80 wire (intermitent grounds)


fd6qyu.gif


80 wire Shielded (boxed Grounds and shielded)
basically what you get in a good SCSI external


http://web.archive.org/web/20020827002242/http://www.vicstech.com/en/rd3xp/NoiseTest/
 
this place sells shielded sata cables - http://www.usb-ware.com/sata-cables-shielded-external.htm

i have 3 SATA devices in my system. 2 hard drives with 1 space between them and my sata plextor burner all the way on top. when they come to the bottom of the case where the sata connectors r, i used a zip tie and i dont see any data loss or speed loss either.
 
wee96 said:
Just wrap your SATA cables in aluminum foil :D
Click to expand...

That would work. Wrap in aluminum foil, then get the split type heat shrink and heatshrink around the foil. There ya go.
 
Speaking of wrapping cables in aluminum foil, the aluminum foil duct tape should work better as it would be easier to apply and won't fall off and short the computer out. :cool:
 
what you'll find more common in the enterprise is this

http://products3.3m.com/catalog/us/...trical_3_0/command_AbcPageHandler/output_html

3M™ EMI Shielding Tape has a multitude of uses in electronic design and test laboratories for prototyping, design and troubleshooting. Tapes with foil backings satisfy many requirements for effective grounding, bonding and EMI shielding. Aluminum, copper backings are available, both smooth and embossed, and with conductive and nonconductive adhesive systems. Both the unique embossed foil tapes and the smooth foil tapes with conductive adhesive offer excellent "through-the-adhesive" conductivity. A copper-plated polyester "rip stop" fabric backing is also available, providing shielding plus strength, flexibility and low weight. Available in custom widths from 1/8 inch to 24 inch, and comes standard on a 18 or 36 yard roll on a 3 inch diameter core.
Click to expand...

$30 + S on ebay for two 1\2"x1,296" rolls
 
As an eBay Associate, HardForum may earn from qualifying purchases.
Once, when I was young and cheap and didn't have SATA and couldn't afford rounded IDE cabling, I got a spare one, and chopped at the plastic between wires, pushed the cut bits on top of each other, and then glued it all together at the sides, which held it as well as covered up any bare wires I may have accidentally cut.
Now I find out IBM does the same sort of thing with their PCs optical drives :mad:
Ah, the good old days of ghetto.
 
snyper238 said:
and some mobos offer more sata connectors, mine i think has four sata and 2 sata2
Click to expand...

Really? i did not know this, please explain.

< noob ha
 
typically "external" can be taken to mean seriously shielded and with strain relief
of course what you actually get varies :p

connectors should be the same well in those cables saying so > SATA1


eSATA

Here is the external single lane connector. The external cable connector is a shielded version of the connector specificed in SATA 1.0a with these basic differences:

• The External connector has no “L” shaped key, and the guide features are vertically offset and reduced in size. This prevents the use of unshielded internal cables in external applications.

• To prevent ESD damage, the insertion depth is increased from 5mm to 6.6mm and the contacts are mounted further back in both the receptacle and plug.

• To provide EMI protection and meet FCC and CE emission requirements, the cable has an extra layer of shielding, and the connectors have metal contact points.

• There are springs as retention features built into the connector shield on both the top and bottom surfaces.



The external connector and cable are designed for over five thousand insertions and removals while the internal connector is only specified to withstand fifty. There are two compliance points for the Single Lane External SATA Data Interface, one at each shielded external connector. As with other Serial ATA specifications, interconnect between the IC/Phy and the connectors at the mating interface are outside the scope of definition and are considered part of the delivered Phy solution. Implementations that have additional connections between the Phy/IC and the shielded external connector must provide such interconnects as part of the engineered solution. For an implementation such as shown in the figure below, the compliance points remain at the shielded external connectors.
Click to expand...
 
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