Hurry up with the OLEDs...

J

Jospeh

[H]ard|Gawd
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Jul 29, 2008
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I can't wait for them to come out...I'm really excited about the technology. I'm hoping it'll be 3 years max before they come out at good prices.
 
I reckon we will start seeing them in laptops or PC monitors soon, 1 year max and they will be around the high-end LCD prices of today, they are already appearing on some new digital cameras, mp3 players, phones... its the large TV panels that will take a while to come out with a further time frame for price drop.
 
About the only downside, longevity aside, is that OLED displays currently are not extremely bright, but this only will be an issue to someone used to 400 nit desktop displays or hyperbright LCD laptop panels for use outdoors.

In every other way, they are a superior technology.
 
Do they have absolute zero input lag ala CRT?
If so count me in for gaming.
 
washburn said:
I reckon we will start seeing them in laptops or PC monitors soon, 1 year max and they will be around the high-end LCD prices of today, they are already appearing on some new digital cameras, mp3 players, phones... its the large TV panels that will take a while to come out with a further time frame for price drop.
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Good one! :D

But seriously I wouldn't count on desktop monitors in even three years. You might be able to buy a small OLED TV in a couple of years and use it with your PC, but when you BURN IN you start menu, you will likely discover the warranty doesn't cover PC use.

OLED will make Plasma look indestructable when it comes to Burn in and Image retention.

But I am a huge OLED fan if they ever work out the lifespan, burn in and pricing issues, because otherwise it is the perfect diplay.

Perfect Blacks.
Perfect Viewing angles.
Fastest response going, something like .01 MS (100X faster than LCD).
 
I want the Samsung F2080 and F2380 to come out already and any other new cPVA monitors on the Horizon which could be an improved version.

The cPVA 23" is priced right in the 300's now for preorders and will drop after shipments arrive. Need reviews on this monitor and others in the league.

I think the 23" cPVA could be where I am headed. 23" size is just right.
 
Saw the 11" Sony again the other day. Black is simply black. It's really an amazing display...
 
The new cPVA is an awesome display too where black is black and white is white. Yes I assume that is an 11" OLED.

OLED is still a far cry away from now. cPVA and variants of IPS seem to be cream of the crop now for panels with cPVA due out in July and then likely spreading to other monitor versions including those from the other makers who use Samsung panels now.
 
OLED technology can completely turn off pixels when reproducing black, resulting in more outstanding dark scene detail and a contrast ratio of 1,000,000:1.

1 million to 1. That must be better than even the best CRT! The quality must be simply amazing.

It is the beginning of the OLED Era meaning they have to ramp up factories and spread the technology so it will take awhile before sizes ramp up as OLED is now used for small sized displays.

If that was available in a 20"+ size at a good price I still wouldnt take one unless it was super cheap because of the longevity of the blue oled. Its essentially a 5 year monitor and needs to be priced like a disposable.

LG + Samsung will have 14, 15 + 31" OLED TV's ramping up. I dont see any 20"+ monitors just yet. It will be coming though.

Im not rushing out to swap my display just yet. eIPS was a new toy for this year since it came out in jan 2009. And cPVA will be introduced in the next month. This does seem to be the end of the line of the best technologies for existing LCD monitors however with all future development going to OLED I would hope.

LG + Samsung are getting the 14, 15 and 31" ready. I assume they will move into the Monitor market and eventually come out with the 20" or so size screens. One can only hope. As to when that will be, who knows.


DuPont today announced the development of its new, proprietary "Gen-3" solution-based organic light emitting diode (OLED) materials technology that can last a record lifetime of more than 1 million hours - equivalent to over 100 years of constant use.

The blue oled is still doing less in terms of longevity though.

According to DisplaySearch, the total OLED display market is forecasted to grow to $5.5 billion by 2015, from $600 million in 2008, with a compound annual growth rate of 37 percent. DisplaySearch also forecasts that in 2015, televisions will pass mobile phone main displays to become the highest-revenue application at $1.92 billion.

OLED is in full swing and we are seeing the end of the line for LED. eIPS and cPVA then hopefully OLED.

How long will it be for OLED to be finally out in a 20"+ size for a good price sub $1000?

Due to blue OLED, 40,000 hours is pretty much the lifespan of OLED TV's which is approx 5 years assuming 24/7 usage. At a price of $2,500 for a Sony 11" for 5 years usage, that is not that great of a deal at all.

OLED seems perfect and it does, except for the longevity of the Blue OLEDs. I paid approx $500 give or take for this top of the line Hitachi monitor in 19" CRT. It is 10 years and it is still going strong.

The blue OLED problem needs to be addressed somehow, maybe a free replacement of blue OLEDs or something that can be changed on the fly or something. 5 years lifespan just isn't enough.
 
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5 years of 24/7 is plenty of lifespan for me. It'll probably turn out to like 10+years.
 
I'm pretty sure I've read somewhere that the blue lifespan is not an issue anymore they've boosted it to like 28% higher and some company did it even higher, and overall the OLED lifespan has been boosted, its only the image retention problem that is left to fix which is probably already fixed.
 
A lot of wishful thinking here. That 40000 hour limit due to the new numbers from Dupont is slightly stretched. What they call deep blue here is actually normal blue. The other blue is way off spec and should probably not even be in the table, it is likely there because of the issues with normal blue.

The life of the normal (deep) blue is still ~ 7000 hours. Then they run some duty cycle calculations and give "simulated" life of 40000 hours.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=16622055&postcount=1104

Sony calculated a similar 30000 hourse for their 11" LED. But when independantly tested it was found to have about ~17000 hour life with typical video ~5000 if displaying white! Expect similar for the 40 000 hour claim for the new Dupont blue.

http://www.oled-info.com/sony/displaysearch_sony_s_oled_lifespan_rated_at_17_000_hours
“Moreover the panel suffers from differential aging: After 1,000 hours the blue luminance degraded by 12 percent, the red by 7 percent and the green by 8 percent."

That means it would need a lot of calibration to stay true to colors. There is definitely a long way to go before these can sit on the desktop. Think about. I just looked and several icons permanently on my desktop have pure white in them, that would fry right into OLED. Then I notice my wallpaper, a nature shot with a full blue sky! Deadly for OLED.

OLED has major hurdles to overcome before it can really be used as a desktop monitor. I expect I will have an OLED TV and only use it for Video, in a couple of years, but Monitors will have to wait, for more years after that, if ever.
 
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How do those Samsung LED TV's compare to OLED's? I know they're twice as much $$$ as LCD's but they look a heck of a lot better and are only 1/2" thick.

Plus they're already available up to 60", I think. Instead of only 11" from Sony.
 
yeah i wonder about that too.
it's like people putting their horses ahead... lcds are pretty advanced already, oled is a new technology but something for the future.
 
The samsung "LED TV" is an lcd display that uses LED backlighting as opposed to the usual CCFL backlight. The LCD matrix itself is just some variant of VA.
 
entropy0 said:
The samsung "LED TV" is an lcd display that uses LED backlighting as opposed to the usual CCFL backlight. The LCD matrix itself is just some variant of VA.
Click to expand...

And the LED backlight is arround the edges: "edge lit". That is how they get them so thin, but there is a higher likelyhood of backlight bleed in the form of what is know as flashlights. Flashlights can be described as a stream of light comming from a point at the edge of the display and spreading out twards the middle of the screen.

The bottom line is that Samsung is flat lying when they call them LED TVs. As mentioned above they are LCD TVs with a LED backlight and the pixels cannot go to complete zero like OLED.

Snowdog's post is right on regarding OLED.

The Cowon S9 MP3 player comes with the same AMOLED display that will be in the upcomming ZuneHD and it is great, but MP3 players have pretty short lifespans and they are not used like computers.

Dave
 
I have read on AVSForums that OLED displays may have burn-in issues.
Another issue was lifespan but it has been greatly improved.
In terms of image quality OLED is way better than any current LED (CCFL or LED).
I will stick with my Pioneer Kuro in the meantime...
 
Better colors, contrast, brightness, viewing angles, clarity, and response time.
 
LG is suppose to have one for the 2009 holidays, but its only 32" and probably will be over 2500$
 
25thofmay said:
will oleds be better than all the others lcds panels types?
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Oled's from what ive researched suffer from several disadvantages, their advantages are primarily their flexibility in small devices.

As a monitor their color limitations and organic components ( short life span) dont make them very attractive for this purpose.

Newer isnt better, look at all the 23 and 24 inch monitors with 1080 p instead of 16:10, you LOSE vertical realestate and they are all TN panels.

A few years ago you could get a nice PMVA or AMVA panel or SPVA and SIPS, try doing that now at your local best buy.

ALAS.........newer is not better, it's actually quite worse LOL
 
LG starts with a 15" OLED TV this year. Samsung and LG will release multiple OLED TVs next year. They should be fairly affordable.

As for the lifetime:
The biggest technical problem for OLEDs is the limited lifetime of the organic materials.[41] In particular, blue OLEDs historically have had a lifetime of around 14,000 hours (five years at 8 hours a day) when used for flat-panel displays, which is lower than the typical lifetime of LCD, LED or PDP technology—each currently rated for about 60,000 hours, depending on manufacturer and model. Toshiba and Panasonic have come up with a way to solve this problem with a new technology that can double the lifespan of OLED displays, pushing their expected life past that of LCD displays.[42] A metal membrane helps deliver light from polymers in the substrate throughout the glass surface more efficiently than current OLEDs. The result is the same picture quality with half the brightness and a doubling of the screen's expected life.[43]
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OLED#Disadvantages

Also, nowhere can I find anything about burn-in with OLEDs from a reliable source. Is this just some kind of myth, or if it's true, how in the world is it supposed to work on a molecular level?
 
Elledan said:
Also, nowhere can I find anything about burn-in with OLEDs from a reliable source. Is this just some kind of myth, or if it's true, how in the world is it supposed to work on a molecular level?
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You clearly don't understand the mechanism behind burn in. Anything with separate emitters that wear more when the more they are used WILL produce burn in, that is practically common sense. OLED being the MOST wear prone fragile technology of any emitter we have seen will burn in more readily than anything we have seen before, more than CRT and even more than Plasma in the early days.

Why is the Sony OLED manual not a reliable source. In short anything but pure full screen video is a burn in threat for OLED:
http://www.abt.com/images/products/PDF_Files/xel1_manual.pdf

Page 4 Huge caution box:
CAUTION
Bright. stationary images. such as TV
station logos or photos, displayed on your
TV can become permanently imprinted
onto the screen. This type of imprint is
known as "Image Retention."

This TV was designed primarily for
viewing TV broadcasts in wide screen
mode (16:9 aspect ratio). Therefore, when
viewing conventional (4:3) TV programs,
select Wide Zoom or Full in the Wide
Mode.

IMAGE RETENTION IS NOT COVERED
BY YOUR WARRANTY. Un-repairable
damage can occur and is not covered under
warranty.
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Page 30:
Image Retention — Due to the characteristics of the material used in an OLED screen for its high-precision image, permanent image retention may occur if still images are displayed in the same position on the screen continuously, or repeatedly over extended periods.

Images that may cause image retention: Wide screen sources with black bars at top and bottom (Letterboxed Image), 4:3 screen sources with black bars at the left and right, non-moving images such as photo, game sources, on-screen tickers such as those used for news and headlines, on-screen menus, program guides, channel numbers, etc. of connected equipment such as a set-top box, video recorder, disc player, etc.
Click to expand...
 
Snowdog said:
You clearly don't understand the mechanism behind burn in. Anything with separate emitters that wear more when the more they are used WILL produce burn in, that is practically common sense. OLED being the MOST wear prone fragile technology of any emitter we have seen will burn in more readily than anything we have seen before, more than CRT and even more than Plasma in the early days.

Why is the Sony OLED manual not a reliable source. In short anything but pure full screen video is a burn in threat for OLED:
http://www.abt.com/images/products/PDF_Files/xel1_manual.pdf

Page 4 Huge caution box:

Page 30:
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Again, the manual says image-retention, you say burn-in. Both are very different things as the former is reversible, the latter isn't. Is anyone going to find me a source which explains how OLED can have burn-in? I sure as hell can't find one.
 
Elledan said:
Again, the manual says image-retention, you say burn-in. Both are very different things as the former is reversible, the latter isn't. Is anyone going to find me a source which explains how OLED can have burn-in? I sure as hell can't find one.
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Are your deficits visual as well? It is highlighted in Yellow Bold in the above manual quote. "permanent image retention". Permanent image retention is burn in. None of the manufacturers like to use burn in, so use IR instead.

I honestly don't know why you can't understand something that is as common sense obvious as burn in. But I will explain it in simplistic terms for you.

What do you think happens a screen wears out as you use it? For example run it for 1000 hours:

DisplaySearch tested the TV set on a 1,000 hour run and discovered that the color blue degraded by 12 percent, red by 7 percent, and green by 8 percent.
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Now to explain it kindergarten terms. While you use the screen the parts that are on degrade, so if you watch 2.39:1 wide screen. You have black bars that are OFF. The black parts do not degrade!

So when you display something across the degraded and non degraded sections you will see the difference. This is burn in.
 
Elledan said:
Again, the manual says image-retention, you say burn-in. Both are very different things as the former is reversible, the latter isn't. Is anyone going to find me a source which explains how OLED can have burn-in? I sure as hell can't find one.
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They aren't different things, burn-in is a misnomer for image retention. And burn-in is reversable... or rather compensable. It always has been, even for CRTs. LCDs just have the benefit of not actually being an emitter unlike phosphors or organic elements and can completely reverse image retention
 
We're discussing this in two threads now, so I'll try to differentiate things a bit here.

ryan_975 said:
They aren't different things, burn-in is a misnomer for image retention. And burn-in is reversable... or rather compensable. It always has been, even for CRTs. LCDs just have the benefit of not actually being an emitter unlike phosphors or organic elements and can completely reverse image retention
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Burn-in isn't reversible: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphor_burn-in , perhaps compensatable is the better word here :)

LCDs also suffer from (permanent) burn-in (just stress the crystal enough so that it can't return to its old shape), but just like with modern CRTs, you have to really try to make it happen.

For OLEDs there doesn't appear to be any hard data (yet) on how long burn-in and image-retention would take. Would it take hours, weeks, months? No one seems to know yet.
 
Elledan said:
We're discussing this in two threads now, so I'll try to differentiate things a bit here.



Burn-in isn't reversible: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphor_burn-in , perhaps compensatable is the better word here :)

LCDs also suffer from (permanent) burn-in (just stress the crystal enough so that it can't return to its old shape), but just like with modern CRTs, you have to really try to make it happen.

For OLEDs there doesn't appear to be any hard data (yet) on how long burn-in and image-retention would take. Would it take hours, weeks, months? No one seems to know yet.
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Take note that I did say "or rather compensable". And in most cases, to stress an LCD to the point where it can't be reversed takes actual effort (e.g.. overvolting, physical damage, or extreme heat).
 
ryan_975 said:
Take note that I did say "or rather compensable". And in most cases, to stress an LCD to the point where it can't be reversed takes actual effort (e.g.. overvolting, physical damage, or extreme heat).
Click to expand...

I don't have any data on how to burn-in an LCD, and I haven't done any research on it yet, but since it uses crystals in a mechanical (twisting) motion, it seems likely that keeping a crystal in the same position for an extended period of time will affect its composition and thus affect its neutral position. It's similar to how a piece of metal or wood can be shaped into a different form by gently deforming it and keeping it in that configuration for a certain amount of time. Materials science is fun :)
 
The reality is OLED burns in, by essentially the same mechanism that Phosphors burn in (except much faster). As you produce light with the OLED cells they degrade and fairly quickly. All the "Image Retention" Sony cautions about in their manual is burn in, there is no other IR mechanism in OLEDs, so this is not some weird temporary IR of plasma/LCD(charge retention/crystal stickyness).

For desktop monitors in a work environment, even CRTs still burn in. Most CRT at work (mine included) have some burn in and I have seen many much worse than mine where you can almost read what the burn in says. Reversing or compensating for this kind of burn in is not possible. (Note we have tons of LCDs at work as well, haven't seen one case of IR on them).

The only kind you could somewhat "fix" is black bar burn in from say watching 4:3 TV on your 16:9 set. But the fix would just be display white bars one a 4:3 black box to burn in the sides to match the screen. Not a great solution.

It will take a while until the actual complaints emerge, because first an actual consumer OLED TV has to hit the market. No one actually uses the Sony 11" long enough to burn it in except Display search who tested it and found it severely lacking (17 000 hour lifespan with video, shockingly bad 5000 hour lifespan with white). The Sony display is also fairly dim and Sony further auto-dims it after a minute to try to extend it's life. It is unknown if the Display search already weak numbers were with the Sony auto dim active (or if there is any way to defeat it), which would make them that much worse.

When the next OLED hits the market(15" in 2010?), it will have the same dire warnings about image retention/Burn in that the Sony does, because this issue is not going away. Blue is still a weakness even the latest super long life OLED announcement by Dupont hides the fact that real blue (which they call deep blue) still only has a 7000 hour lifetime.

Note that what dupont calls "deep blue" still isn't even as deep as bog standard sRGB or Rec 709 which has a blue spec of xy (.15, .06), though the deep blue is close enough at (.14, .08), but their "normal" blue is weak and way off spec (any spec, nothing spec blue this weak) at (.14, .12).

OLED represents almost ideal display characteristics. I too would love a monitor like that, but that doesn't lead me to pollyannaish wishful thinking about the realities of the durability issues. The OLED blue primary is still a significant unsolved weakness that will hamper durability.

When I first bought my NEC 2490 I had stated a hope that I could replace it with a OLED monitor when the warranty expired in 2012, but I didn't actually expect that likely. I see no sign of any change.

My expectation is that in 2012 you may finally get a semi affordable 37"+ OLED TV. OLED monitors years after that if ever. 2012 might be bleak for a my NECs replacement with SED/FED all but dead and OLED likely remaining too fragile for a desktop monitor. A-TW IPS is also dead. Sad but I might take a step backward in monitors when my NEC dies.

I do look forward to a nice OLED TV in 4 or 5 years though. Don't hold your breath on OLED monitors though, a thorough examination of the technology, just doesn't lead a realistic conclusion that these will be robust enough for the desktop in the foreseeable future.

Edit:
Announced Rollouts larger than 11":
LG 15" announced for late 2009 early 2010 in Korea: During the period of Dec 2009-Jan 2010, our customer will launch 15" OLED TV in Korean market. Thereafter global roll-out follows.
... That is all. Other "announcements" mention want to have, production ready, but there are no other acutal production announcements that I could find.
 
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I think you're a bit too pessimistic about OLED's market potential. LG will release a 15" OLED TV this year (confirmed), and both Samsung and LG have announced their intention to release 30+" OLED TVs next year. Burn-in was (is) still an issue with Plasma TVs as well, and they're still very popular. Apparently it doesn't prevent the uptake of the technology.

Also, LCDs were introduced not because they were better at displaying images than CRTs, but due to the much higher profit margins on them. As OLED TVs can be sold for a premium at this point and for the coming years, they're much more attractive to manufacture than LCDs, which has turned into a cut-throat market by now.

LCDs used to suck (passive matrix, slow refresh rate in general), plasma wasn't great either, CRTs have had a (very) long evolution. OLEDs are only still beginning their technological evolution. We're now at 3rd gen OLED tech, LCDs have seen many more generations already.

Plus Sony has mentioned its intentions to release FED monitors in the professional market next year, so I think we'll be fine in terms of new display tech :)

Oh, and BTW... I must admit to never having seen burn-in on a CRT screen, not on my own, not on those of friends, family or customers at the computer shop where I used to work. Only cases I have seen pictures of where from CRTs used at an airport, which had most areas covered in the same colours for 24/7 during many, many years.
 
I'll be staying far, far away from the tech while it's still new. No LCD has ever been able to impress me until the recent release of the 120 Hz ones, and these are still the first generation of that particular branch of technology.
 
Elledan said:
Oh, and BTW... I must admit to never having seen burn-in on a CRT screen, not on my own, not on those of friends, family or customers at the computer shop where I used to work. Only cases I have seen pictures of where from CRTs used at an airport, which had most areas covered in the same colours for 24/7 during many, many years.
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You should see my 21" trinitron, I can clearly see the start bar and the title bar at the top from windows. It is VERY visible, trust me.
 
goodCat said:
You should see my 21" trinitron, I can clearly see the start bar and the title bar at the top from windows. It is VERY visible, trust me.
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I'm not denying that it happens, only that I haven't seen a single case of it yet with my own eyes :)
 
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