HT With 4 OHM Speakers

D

digitalforce

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Dec 18, 2010
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I just received my first "real" home theatre speakers.


Left/Right/Center = http://www.mksoundsystem.com/home-products/m-series/m-7/

Surrounds = http://www.mksoundsystem.com/home-products/m-series/m-4t/

Sub = http://www.mksoundsystem.com/home-products/subwoofers/sb-12/


They are awesome but I currently have an older Marantz SR4003 with 16AWG speaker wire and I think I am running out of power on those 5 channels.

First option - Get an external amp like an Emotiva and connect it to my current receiver

Second - Buy brand new receiver but I need to keep it under $800. I have looked at Marantz, Denon, Onkyo and Yamaha but I don't know which is the best bet for ample power. I don't care about frills, bells and whistles, etc. I just want the BEST SOUNDING amp with ample power, for the best price.

Any input would be awesome :cool:
 
I would say look at Denon or Yamaha, that's going to get you the best sound for as little money as possible. Most people that get a Denon swear by them.

Marantz is pretty much BPC these days (Black Plastic Crap), they are far from the quality product they were in the last century.
 
Actually, here is a summary of opinions from the AVS forums. Agree or disagree?

Denon: (recommended for a good all around receiver with few flaws)
Pros:
Good bang for buck
Nice looking receivers
Good sound quality and good for both Movies and Music
Audessey
Nice on screen displays
I find them easy to use
Cons:
Does not sound as good as Marantz or upper level Pioneers
The newer models give new features but take features away instead of just adding features
Only the higher end models give you video upconversion (but think this changed in 2013 to where mid level and up have it)

Sound signature: Laid back, articulate, smooth

Recommended model: Refurbished Denon 2313 from Accessories4less.com


Pioneer: (recommended if you want to learn the receiver and tweak the sound)
Pros:
Good sound quality with powerful amplification. D3 amp (in recent SC models) models sound better and are better with low OHM speakers than most receivers.
Lots of nice features included
Good for both movies and music
Nice looking receivers (I think they look best)
In my experience very reliable (my dad still owns and uses a VSX 522 I bought about 12 years ago and it is still going strong with zero issues).
MCACC is my personal favorite room correction. It does not EQ the sub but you can tweak everything after it is done, which is my favorite part. Plus there is no roll off like there is with Audessey.
Cons:
Only 1 universal crossover setting abilty with speakers (inability to select different crossover for main/center/surround/back surround speakers)
Expensive add on modules needed in some cases (Bluetooth, etc.)
Complicated setup and remote control (you have to learn Pioneer language)
More primitive looking onscreen GUI
MCACC unable to EQ the subwoofer (but you can do it yourself)
Poor instructions (written in Pioneerese)

Sound signature: D3 amps: Detailed, warm, airy, balanced , dynamic
Regular amps: warm, articulate, dynamic

Recommended models: Pioneer SC-1222 from Newegg.com (if it is on sale for $600.00) check prices daily.
Pioneer Elite SC-61 (if you can stretch your budget a bit) from Amazon.com
Pioneer VSX-1122k (if you want good sound and nice features for less money. No D3 amps though.


Onkyo: (recommended if you use it for mostly movies or you want the best features for your money spent, just watch the issues!)
Pros:
Best bang for buck
Most features for price paid
Strongest Amp section of all receivers (rates closest to it's advertised spec)
Usually THX certified with the mid range models and has a better version of Audessey (than the equivilant Denon in the same price range)
The best for movies
Good on screen menus and maybe the easiest to operate.
Cons:
Reliability issues
Onkyo support is the worst in my experience
Ugliest receiver (no WAF points if you have a wife)
Some have frame stutter issues and Onkyo is slow or passive about fixing such features
Not as good as music

Sound signature: Dynamic, clean, clear, clinical

Recommended models: Onkyo TX-NR809 from Accessories4less.com
Onkyo TX-NR818 (if you can stretch your budget a bit) from Accessories4less.com


Yamaha: (Recommended if the features you want most are solid video and audio performance with surround sound modes)
Pros:
Almost as feature packed as Onkyo
Best surround sound modes and directional audio
Good all around for music and movies
YPAO auto correction system is highly regarded by most
Good on screen menus
Very good USB DACS used (Burr Browns typical)
Cons:
Only 1 universal crossover setting abilty with speakers (inability to select different crossover for main/center/surround/back surround speakers)
Weakest amp power (usually bench lowest vs their advertised spec)
Cheaper models can sound bright (you do not want to pair a cheap Yamaha and Klipsch speakers together)
Some may find their sound quality not as "exciting" as the other brands but upper models sound very, very good.
YPAO does not EQ the subwoofer

Sound signature: Natural, airy, precise (some may sound bright)

Recommended model: Yamaha RX-A720 from amazon.com


Marantz: (Music powerhouse if sound quality is top notch priority and equally good with movies)
Pros:
Rivals Pioneer SC (D3 amps) for sound quality
Good all around receiver that is dedicated for music playback quality
Made by D+M Holdings (same maker as Denon)
Audessey
Good on screen menus
Very nice looking units which look unique compared to other receivers. HIGH WAF
Cons:
Usually not as feature packed as the equivilant Denon (but will sound better)
Your wife/GF/domestic partner will wonder what the heck you bought!

Sound signature: Warm, dynamic, smooth, musical (warmer than Denon)

Recommended model: Marantz SR5007
 
Do you need hdmi? Do you need 3D?

For "best" sound quality, you can gain a lot by looking at used equipment.

Can you spend $1000? If you can, and you want brand new, you can get into an Anthem MRX-300
 
I do need HDMI. I don't need 3D. I can't spend $1000. :)

Where is best place to get used? I don't mind getting something used or refurb..
 
You can't use any of the Pioneers with ICEpower amps in them with 4 ohm nominal speakers. I'm pretty sure the amps still won't support speakers below 6 ohms.

... which is a shame because they crank out a ton of clean power and don't throw heat like the others. So no Polk LSis etc with Pioneer's SC's

I had bad luck with my cheap Onkyo, but my friend loves his Integra receiver.

Be careful with what you buy. Some of these act like they can support 4 ohm speakers will do it at dramatically lower output levels as a safety feature.
 
editing this, I looked at your Marantz. You have pre-outs, you have HDMI... Marantz is a good receiver, just get another power amp, get the emotiva.
 
Last edited:
Best placed to look for used is craigslist.

Good place to look for refurbed units is accessories4less
 
InternationalHat said:
You can't use any of the Pioneers with ICEpower amps in them with 4 ohm nominal speakers. I'm pretty sure the amps still won't support speakers below 6 ohms.
Click to expand...

Just received a Pioneer SC-1222-K via Newegg for $550.00 shipped. Same as the Elite SC-61 without the remote 12v triggers (remedied using a smart power strip and a 12V power brick) and the high markup.

It has the ICEpower Class D3 amps and supports 4 - 16 ohm. 190W/channel using 7 channels at 1% THD 1kHz (according to the manual).

Denon and Marantz are the same, made by the same company with a different front face. Pics of the internals are mirror images.

Onkyo has iffy HDMI board and suck a lot of power in standby when using the HDMI pass-thru. Nearly jumped on the Amazon deal over Christmas for a TX-NR809 @ $427 but waited too long and lost out. I was willing to risk the HDMI issues for the price but not at $660.

You can pick up Denon, Marantz, and Onkyo refurb/used/new at accessories4less.com. I was eyeing the Denon 3312CI @ $650 + S/H but the Pioneer fell in my lap.

So far, I'm liking the Pioneer. MCACC is nice once I traversed the learning curve.

Get some 12AWG wire at monoprice. 100ft @ $29.06, 300ft @ $84.84. 12AWG can handle higher power with less loss/ft.
 
Thinking about ordering it right now but with a 15% restock fee... ARGH! I just don't know. If I don't end up liking it, I don't want to be "stuck" with it.
 
Last edited:
Just came upon a local 6 month old TX-NR809 -- $575

Thoughts on 809 vs Pioneer SC-1222-K?

Or a new Integra DTR-40.4 for $799..
 
Last edited:
djflow195 said:
Just received a Pioneer SC-1222-K via Newegg for $550.00 shipped. Same as the Elite SC-61 without the remote 12v triggers (remedied using a smart power strip and a 12V power brick) and the high markup.

It has the ICEpower Class D3 amps and supports 4 - 16 ohm. 190W/channel using 7 channels at 1% THD 1kHz (according to the manual).

Denon and Marantz are the same, made by the same company with a different front face. Pics of the internals are mirror images.

Onkyo has iffy HDMI board and suck a lot of power in standby when using the HDMI pass-thru. Nearly jumped on the Amazon deal over Christmas for a TX-NR809 @ $427 but waited too long and lost out. I was willing to risk the HDMI issues for the price but not at $660.

You can pick up Denon, Marantz, and Onkyo refurb/used/new at accessories4less.com. I was eyeing the Denon 3312CI @ $650 + S/H but the Pioneer fell in my lap.

So far, I'm liking the Pioneer. MCACC is nice once I traversed the learning curve.

Get some 12AWG wire at monoprice. 100ft @ $29.06, 300ft @ $84.84. 12AWG can handle higher power with less loss/ft.
Click to expand...

Those specs aren't accurate at all. I hate companies that fudge their specs like that, makes me mistrust them.

Accurate specs are not measured at 1khz. And 1%THD is hugely distorted.

They have inflated their specs by measuring at 1KHZ and playing it to distortion levels. I'll bet that receiver doesn't have anything past 100w per channel in reality.
 
matteos said:
Those specs aren't accurate at all. I hate companies that fudge their specs like that, makes me mistrust them.

Accurate specs are not measured at 1khz. And 1%THD is hugely distorted.

They have inflated their specs by measuring at 1KHZ and playing it to distortion levels. I'll bet that receiver doesn't have anything past 100w per channel in reality.
Click to expand...

Hometheater.com reviewed the SC-61 (same as the SC-1222-K with 12V triggers):

Two channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 127.2 watts
1% distortion at 150.3 watts

Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 109.0 watts
1% distortion at 127.7 watts

Seven channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 99.4 watts
1% distortion at 110.3 watts

... the SC-61’s left channel, from CD input to speaker output with two channels driving 8-ohm loads, reaches 0.1 percent distortion at 127.2 watts and 1 percent distortion at 150.3 watts. Into 4 ohms, the amplifier reaches 0.1 percent distortion at 213.8 watts and 1 percent distortion at 247.5 watts.

So at 4 ohms with two channels driven, you get 213.8W/ch at 0.1% THD. My ugly guesstimate is at 4 ohms with 7 channels driven, you would get > 150W/ch at 0.1% THD.

See http://www.avsforum.com/t/1456710/official-pioneer-sc-1222-k-owners-thread for more info on the receiver.
 
Impressive numbers for a receiver, and it looks like going with Class D3 was a great decision.

One nitpick, I hate when manufacturers release a so-called "installer" version (in this case under Pioneer's Elite branding) of the same hardware at a higher (actual, not MSRP) price target.

Triggers on the Elite branded SC-61 and not the SC-1222-K? It is not a huge issue for most, but to include pre-outs and not triggers on the less expensive, more available model stings a bit for those relying on triggers in their HT.

It sends a message from the manufacturer that those with enough budget to take full advantage of the pre-outs can afford to pay more for the same guts. True? Maybe, but it still feels a bit like a slap in the face.
 
djflow195 said:
Hometheater.com reviewed the SC-61 (same as the SC-1222-K with 12V triggers):

Two channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 127.2 watts
1% distortion at 150.3 watts

Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 109.0 watts
1% distortion at 127.7 watts

Seven channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 99.4 watts
1% distortion at 110.3 watts

... the SC-61’s left channel, from CD input to speaker output with two channels driving 8-ohm loads, reaches 0.1 percent distortion at 127.2 watts and 1 percent distortion at 150.3 watts. Into 4 ohms, the amplifier reaches 0.1 percent distortion at 213.8 watts and 1 percent distortion at 247.5 watts.

So at 4 ohms with two channels driven, you get 213.8W/ch at 0.1% THD. My ugly guesstimate is at 4 ohms with 7 channels driven, you would get > 150W/ch at 0.1% THD.

See http://www.avsforum.com/t/1456710/official-pioneer-sc-1222-k-owners-thread for more info on the receiver.
Click to expand...

5 channels at 0.1 at 109 watts. Proves my point exactly. 0.1% THD is nothing to shout about. 109 watts per channel, close to what I said

Not more impressive numbers than any mid level receiver, distorted specs... Any good receiver will give you more wattage at 4ohms. 1% distortion is not good.
 
Last edited:
For a receiver? That's pretty good. Many or even most receivers miss their ratings by even more.

More or less all receivers, even very good ones, overstate their power handling and ratings. Most good amplifier separates, however, will often understate their power handling. But the total typical cost of ownership for separates is much higher than your typical receivers.

Are there issues with how receivers are rated? Yes. Should this change? Again, probably, but at least the overstating is consistent.

Regardless, the chosen unit is very good for its price range.

Personally, I would have gotten the Emotiva amplifier as well, but the OP still would have been restricted somewhat by the old Marantz unit (which was a middle of the road unit as well). And honestly that old Marantz is behind in more than just power.
 
TESLA said:
For a receiver? That's pretty good. Many or even most receivers miss their ratings by even more.

More or less all receivers, even very good ones, overstate their power handling and ratings. Most good amplifier separates, however, will often understate their power handling. But the total typical cost of ownership for separates is much higher than your typical receivers.

Are there issues with how receivers are rated? Yes. Should this change? Again, probably, but at least the overstating is consistent.

Regardless, the chosen unit is very good for its price range.

Personally, I would have gotten the Emotiva amplifier as well, but the OP still would have been restricted somewhat by the old Marantz unit (which was a middle of the road unit as well). And honestly that old Marantz is behind in more than just power.
Click to expand...

you are right, the receiver should be a pretty good one. If it can do around 100 watts in 5 channels it'll be more than most people need.

I guess my issue is with how they are presenting it, I have a peeve... I like to see honest specs at 20hz-20khz 8ohm with an honest distortion rate. 0.1% is honest, 1% isn't. I just wanted to point out that the unit isn't going to give him 200+ real watts.

Nevertheless, I hope the OP is happy with his purchase and enjoys it,
 
djflow195 said:
Just received a Pioneer SC-1222-K via Newegg for $550.00 shipped. Same as the Elite SC-61 without the remote 12v triggers (remedied using a smart power strip and a 12V power brick) and the high markup.

It has the ICEpower Class D3 amps and supports 4 - 16 ohm. 190W/channel using 7 channels at 1% THD 1kHz (according to the manual).

Denon and Marantz are the same, made by the same company with a different front face. Pics of the internals are mirror images.

Onkyo has iffy HDMI board and suck a lot of power in standby when using the HDMI pass-thru. Nearly jumped on the Amazon deal over Christmas for a TX-NR809 @ $427 but waited too long and lost out. I was willing to risk the HDMI issues for the price but not at $660.

You can pick up Denon, Marantz, and Onkyo refurb/used/new at accessories4less.com. I was eyeing the Denon 3312CI @ $650 + S/H but the Pioneer fell in my lap.

So far, I'm liking the Pioneer. MCACC is nice once I traversed the learning curve.

Get some 12AWG wire at monoprice. 100ft @ $29.06, 300ft @ $84.84. 12AWG can handle higher power with less loss/ft.
Click to expand...

SC-07 up through SC-57 I think? technically don't support anything below 6 ohm. It's speculated that heat or power supply issues could be the reason. I've never risked hooking up anything below 6 to my SC-27 for that reason.

I believe the internals of the amps changed somewhere in the middle there, but I'm not sure. It's certainly possible that the new ones might support 4 ohms, but they did not for a long time.
 
djflow195 said:
Denon and Marantz are the same, made by the same company with a different front face. Pics of the internals are mirror images.
Click to expand...

I think this is true for the lower-end models, but the higher end Marantz units are different and features HDAM modules in their amps, preamps, and players. Denon does not seem to have this in any of their models and it is still primarily a Marantz only technology.
 
Tankerton said:
I think this is true for the lower-end models, but the higher end Marantz units are different and features HDAM modules in their amps, preamps, and players. Denon does not seem to have this in any of their models and it is still primarily a Marantz only technology.
Click to expand...

Maybe, but they are both owned by the same company, D & M, who also own McIntosh and others.
 
JohnDC said:
Maybe, but they are both owned by the same company, D & M, who also own McIntosh and others.
Click to expand...

Not maybe....You can see the difference on the internals of the high-end amps + preamps and source players. Look at the inside of the AV8801. Many common parts as the Denon 4520, but the HDAM modules are exclusive to the Maratnz as well as a toroidal transformer, copper lined chassis, etc. Or look at a PM8004 integrated amp or the PM11S3. Denon doesn't really sell their hi-fi stuff in the USA anymore.

Also, D&M does not own McIntosh anymore. They sold it.
http://www.cepro.com/article/dm_sells_mcintosh_to_fine_sounds/
 
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