HS student thinking of Majoring in Programming.

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Shakezilla

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Ok Im a senior at school and as all seniors do I am thinking about what I want to major in. I am seriously thinking of majoring in computor programming. I know that it is sometimes hard a fustrating but I love a chalenge. The programmers at my mom's work seem to like thier jobs and have a good time. I am just wondering what kind of knowledge should I have about programming before going to college with this as my major, right now I have pretty much no knowledge of programming. And also what is a typical starting salary and a typicla salary. Thanks for any help you can give and sorry if something like this is already posted.
 
If you are seriously considering programming as your major but have not done a lot of programming that is a problem. My dream four years ago was to become a programmer and work on software in the future but then after three years of programming classes at school (I'm a senior now as well), I have decided that it's really not for me. I realize you might not have the luxury of this right now, but you still have time. Go out and buy some programming for dummies books or better yet get signed up for some night school classes at a local community college. You could do this during the school year or also during the summer.

Also, depending on the college you go to, they usually have you do your freshman year in general courses to fulfill requirements and that would help you figure out more what you want to do before you have to declare your official major. If you decide before then that programming is your thing, I would get a couple books and read up. I think it's fair to say that most students going into programming have had at least a year or two in classes of it. The three guys from my school that are majoring in it all had a year of Java, a year of C++, and then some Basic and Pascal etc. That does not mean at all that you can't do it, but I would work to gain more background knowledge so things will be easier in college.
 
Unless you are really devoted, I'd advise against it and do CE instead. Programming is really disappearing as a career in the US, unless you are highly specialized.
 
What is CE? lol sorry and you really think programming will dry up that fast in the U.S. I know a lot of big buisnesses are outsourcing but small companys still seem like they will have a need.
 
Shakezilla said:
What is CE? lol sorry and you really think programming will dry up that fast in the U.S. I know a lot of big buisnesses are outsourcing but small companys still seem like they will have a need.
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It is true that programming can be outsourced pretty easily to places like India, but you are correct, there are still positions here that require programmers and will in the future.
 
CE is Computer Engineering, I believe. I know nothing of that job market. I do believe that CE majors take a few programming courses, but nothing too intense.

I definately agree with Deadlierchair though... if you haven't done any programming before, you really should check it out before you get into it. I'm a Senior in Computer Science and can imagine it would be pretty hard work if you didn't like it.

I would seriously reccomend going through either C or C++ for Dummies first. Do all the example programs that progress through the book. I know that gives you a decent foundation, pretty much equivelant to the "programming logic" bullshit courses a lot of schools will make you take.

I personally find it very fun to do. It can be both relaxing and exciting/challenging for me. You don't want to go into an assembly programming class without loving programming first :p
 
You must program a lot and see if you would want to do it for 40 - 50 years as a career.

To me, there is nothing like the rush I get when it's the 11th hour, major project is due at midnight, and I have to dream up some amazing hack or piece of code that will finish my project. It's a rush. It's also one of the only things I like/am really good at.

If you become a computer science student (or computer programming, though I haven't really heard of a programming major), you will find that it helps if you are very lazy, can live off 4 hours of sleep a night, and can problem solve in narrow time frames (because of your laziness). :p
 
Yeah I have been thiking about CE(after I posted I figured out hwat it ment like usual). What kind of subjects does CE involve? Physics and Math? I am sorta sick of math right now in my life(6 math credits in 4 years) I am decent at math tho Currently in Calculus. Phyiscs is fun for me though. THanks for your help guys and keep it coming.

But for programming I should get C or C++ or dummys? To see if I like it?
 
Shakezilla said:
But for programming I should get C or C++ or dummys? To see if I like it?
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Yes. Get a C++ instruction book of some kind, I like the for Dummies series but there are a ton, just make sure you get a good beginners one. That way you can try programming out a little bit in a nice simple language.
 
You may want to try programming before you major in it at a university, how stuff works has some c, java, and perl articles that will give you an idea what programming is like. I recommend starting with C as it is most likely to be helpful in a future c/c++ course you will take.
http://computer.howstuffworks.com/software-channel.htm

Some other c programming links, search the net you can find anything...
http://www.cs.cf.ac.uk/Dave/C/CE.html
http://www.strath.ac.uk/IT/Docs/Ccourse/

Your going to want to pick out a college, visit their website, and find the department in which you wish to major. Take a look at the courses required for the degree and what they expect you to know already.

Be sure to fill up a fafsa for the year you plan on attending, nothing like free government money. (It literally pays for all my classes, books, and a bit extra that lives in a bank account for rainy days.)
http://www.fafsa.ed.gov/
 
Shakezilla said:
Yeah I have been thiking about CE(after I posted I figured out hwat it ment like usual). What kind of subjects does CE involve? Physics and Math? I am sorta sick of math right now in my life(6 math credits in 4 years) I am decent at math tho Currently in Calculus. Phyiscs is fun for me though. THanks for your help guys and keep it coming.

But for programming I should get C or C++ or dummys? To see if I like it?
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Don't think that a computer science degree will let you escape from math/physics. Under my school's degree program, even if you take the "business" option CS degree plan, you still end up one class away from a Mathematics minor. If you take the regular science option you end up with the Math minor.

I'm doing the business option and have taken Calculus 1 and 2, probability, discrete math, and linear algebra. I was fine up through Cal 2... I've pretty much hated the rest.
 
I dont mind math all that much but with going into Programming or CE how much math would I need and how much math do you use?
 
As far as CS, it'd probably be nice to have taken some sort of calculus in high school. And just have a very solid background in math, in general. It's easier when you can concentrate your study time and focus on CS courses rather than spend a lot of time on math courses.

I'd reccomend looking at the course curriculem for CS and CE majors on a university's website.
 
Computer science has one of the highest dropout rates in college, and the primary reason is that people don't realize how much work goes into it. Almost all of the people who entered CS at my school without prior experience got filtered out in the first 2 years, because they couldn't keep up with the workload.

If you are serious, sit down with a language and start learning basic syntax of it, and start doing random projects. Also, getting a working knowledge of linux or another *nix is great too (many colleges teach their CS courses on computers running *nix, so actually knowing how to use a command line, and what things like emacs and vim are before you show up to class is VERY FREAKING HELPFUL).

Most colleges go from bare minimum (people who've never programmed), all the way up to a full software engineering project senior year, so if you don't have any experience, you MIGHT be ok. But this isn't the type of job you can just do though. It's something you have to love. You can't just bs your way through a computer program; you have to do it and love doing it.

If you want, email me at [email protected] and i'll send you some of the basic data structures projects I did sophomore year (java programming language). Might give you a feel for the type of workload you are in for, etc.
 
Ok, here's the lowdown:

1) CS will be MATH intensive! Don't do it if you don't like math. Many of the intro courses have a math req so you may have to take a bunch of math classes or pre-req tests to even get into the cool CS classes.

2) you can ALWAYS CHANGE MAJORS 1 to 2 years into college. Yes! You don''t have to be 100% about what you want to study. Try something!

3) CS has a much smaller career path for those that are not completely devoted to it. Love it or leave it, sorry!

Dario
 
I think its safe to say that, unless you are a VERY gifted programmer/CS guy, then you are going to have some lonely nights. I'm doing CE (Civil Engineering, the other CE) and alot of people call that the "dummy" engineering next to Fire Protection, and even Civil is very difficult, so I can't even imagine what you would go through if you do NOT LOVE THIS STUFF.

I don't particularly love engineering, but I have a good foundation in Calc/Phys which lets me BS my way through (its my talent, not my hard work). Obviously if you have the talent and the hardwork ethic down, then you are set. I can tell you, I thought I had the hardwork ethic down in high school, but some colleges will break you down with their engineering courses. Be READY.
 
as long as youre in calculus in high school (which is one year ahead of the typical math route for californians when i was in high school) that at least shows that youve got a good head up as far as the math goes

cs programs, to my knowledge, require you to take some math classes that not even engineering programs require you to take (particularly discrete math, though i think some computer engineering programs at some schools MAY require it). the best advice though is to remember that you dont have to declare a major just yet, and even if you do, you can change that up to your junior year. just immerse yourself in the classes. and figure out if youd be comfortable doing that 40 hours a week. from what i hear, cs is something you really need to DO in order to learn and appreciate it. you cant just read stuff out of a book and apply it directly.

however, the real function of math classes in engineering and cs programs is not necessarily "can you do some particular math functions" but its more of a general assessment of your problem-solving skills. ive seen engineers on the job, and the actual math they do (which isnt as much as you think) is nothing like what they did in college. again, math is really nothing more than a classically-based way to test your ability to solve problems. its that problem solving ability thats whats important on the job

now im not a direct source on this information (i just started college, ChemE major) so most of what i said is from others whove "been there, done that"
 
dont become a computer science major for the sake of the other majors that are going to not want you around.
if you ask about salaries, you are in the wrong major, try MIS, its like business of selling computer scientists efforts for money, you might be better suited in that field.



i started as a physics major, then a math major, then to computer science.

i spent the first 2 years of college avoiding comp sci classes because i didnt want to be in a cubicle, but in reality i actualy bullshitted my way through all my math and physics courses by programming my TI-86 to do all of the problems so i could chill and get high.

then i realized not many people can do this, and the ones that can still get high all the time and they are good at their jobs and can do it from home at 3 in the morning, and i became CS for the next three years of my 5 year college career

i loved it, and you dont have to end up in a cubicle if you are willing to start making a name for yourself.

dont look at starting salaries or any of that bullshit. the trick is to get really good at something, and be willing to take pay cuts to demonstrate how good you are and gain experience in years. thats what im doing now.

i like to live cheap, so i work 15 hours a week and can pay all my bills and live a happy life in my apartment while gaining years of perl and mysql programming developing applications meant to run through web sights. Not many perl programmers out there, not many good ones, and definetly not many willing to work for as cheap as i am because im young and dont have a family.

oh yeah, i ended up with a computer science/math double major with a inor in philosophy, those logic skills are fun in ethics
 
Im not going into any career for money if I wanted to make money I could become and doctor or a pharmacist, but Im not really intrested in that stuff. I need a job that pays enough for me to enjoy a lot of the better things in life but that will intrest me and keep me working hard. So far in school the only tihng that has intrested me is physics, everythign else I just bs my way thruogh even though its all honors. I think im gona pick myself up a c++ for dummies book tomorrow.
 
Shakezilla said:
Im not going into any career for money if I wanted to make money I could become and doctor or a pharmacist, but Im not really intrested in that stuff. I need a job that pays enough for me to enjoy a lot of the better things in life but that will intrest me and keep me working hard. So far in school the only tihng that has intrested me is physics, everythign else I just bs my way thruogh even though its all honors. I think im gona pick myself up a c++ for dummies book tomorrow.
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So...why not physics if that's what interests you? That's what I'm planning on majoring in.
 
and fyi:

i have no real programming experience, but ive always considered programming simple games as more of a side-hobby :) - in other words, im not going to be the next john carmack, but if i make something that people generally like, thatd make me especially happy

funny that you say pharmicist - i havent decided whether to stick it out with chem engineering or try biomedical engineering, since my career goal is to become a pharmicist or some semi-hardcore related medical profession (besides pr0n star :p)
 
for reference, I'm a recent CE graduate and here is a general course breakdown:

Math/Phys

Calc 1, 2, 3(multivar)
Differential Equations
Linear Algebra
Probability
some chemistry
some physics (at least calc versions of all mech and elec+mag, maybe some wave)

Programming:

All basic c/c++/java
Overview courses of lisp, smalltalk, perl, ML, haskel
Language agnostic algorithms courses from linked list to B* tree to octtree
Operating system courses

Electrical Eng:

embedded systems/assembly programming
verilog
active/passive circuits
amplifiers
signal processing
digital logic design
microprocessors

All of this plus additional "core" courses like some arts courses (yay music theory!)
 
If, as you said before, physics is what interests you - you really should major in physics. However, that doesn't stop you from taking a programming course here and there, or even trying to minor in computer science. However, you really need to be dedicated and love programming [and be slightly insane] to major in Computer Science.

Also, you should pick up some books on programming and learn as much as possible before entering the university.

For reference, here's a list of the classes I've taken so far and will be taking next semester (I'm a senior - who's going to be staying for a fifth year):
Computer Science:
Programming in C, Advanced C++ Programming 1, Advanced C++ Programming 2, Computational Logic, Computer Organization (Assembly Language, other low-level programming concepts), Organization of Programming Languages (Learn a new language every few weeks), Algorithms (Lots of theoretical math stuff), Cryptography, Operating Systems (Write your own)

Math:
Calculus 1, Calculus 2, Calculus 3, Linear Algebra, Differential Equations, an upper-level very math-heavy statistics class

From looking at the CS classes I've taken, you can see that it takes a very long time before I started getting into the interesting ones (Crypto and OS) - it took me 3 years. In those three years, most of the classes I took were very shitty, had inept professors, and required upwards of 40 hours of programming - a week - to get finished.

Just some thoughts for you to consider about CS at a major University.
 
dariob said:
3) CS has a much smaller career path for those that are not completely devoted to it. Love it or leave it, sorry!

Dario
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CS has prolly the largest career path. There are so many different jobs that you can do with a computer science degree and so many different areas it is crazy. I'd like to know why you think that there is small career path.
 
You mentioned picking up a C++ for dummies book.

Might want to check with the college you are planning on going to. A lot of colleges start with java as the first programming language, so it might be very prudent to pick up a java for dummies book now, and worry about c++ later.

And while we are talking about lists of courses, here's what I've taken (i'm a junior):

Freshmen year:
Fall:
Lots of bullshit college requirement courses
Calculus 2 (ap out of calc 1)
CS 181 (intro to java)

Spring:
Lots of bullshit college requirement courses
CS 182

Sophomore year:
Fall:
Discrete 1
Data structures 1
Physics 1

Spring:
Discrete 2
Data Structures 2
Physics 2

Junior year:
Fall:
Assembly
Web applications and development
User Interface and design
Organization of programming languages (basically learn c and lisp)
Mathematical foundations and methods for computer programming (the class where you learn why math is so important for computer science, how a computer can only do 4 mathematical operations, etc)

Spring: (next semester, I just picked my courses like last week)
Unix internals
Design and analysis of algorithms
Linear Algebra
Digital Design
Object Oriented Programming (take our java knowledge and apply it to C++ and .net)

Senior year lines up to be:
Operating Systems
Modern algebra
Software Engineering
Computer Architecture
Random philosophy class (one more bullshit college requirement i've been putting of)
and like 1-2 other classes (random cs electives or whatever)

So as you can see, course load gets quite heavy (there's been days where i've had 3-4 programming assignments all due the same day, some late nights up programming) :), but also notice that I hardly took any requirements freshman and even sophomore year. So if you take the 181 and 182 classes and decide you don't like CS, it's only 1-2 classes, not the end of the world. And you'll have a decent idea by the end of those intro classes if CS is going to be right for you or not, and surely by the end of the data structures classes.
 
Working on a graduate degree in CS - just want to toss a few things in.

* You don't go to a 4-year college/university to learn programming - you learn CS. CS is a -lot- deeper than just 'writing code'. There's a lot of math - both stuff like calculus/linear-algebra and algorithms/discrete math - in a CS course. At some point, you realize that programming, and even having a computer, is secondary to the nature of the discipline. A computer made from DNA or a Turing Machine is just as much a 'computer' to computer scientist as the PC on your desk.

* For the love of god, don't pick C/C++ as a first programming language. They're great languages when you need them, but as far as having a tool that you can -quickly- use to solve day-to-day problems goes, they're lacking. Find a good high-level language, like Python, and get comfortable with it. You can spend a lot more time looking at important things like program design & problem solving when you don't have to wory about static data types, pointers & memory management.

* Learn Unix (linux works) now. Even if the program you go into doesn't use it, a CSist that doesn't know any Unix is not only limiting themselves to working in a MSFT shop, it also shows that you're inflexible.

* If you have multiple schools to chose from, actually look at their CS program. When I was an undergrad, I made the mistake of chosing a state school based on it's general reputation. I would've been much better off going to another school that, in general, had a worse rep, but hat a better CS program - both in course content & the kind of active research professors were involved in.

* Internships & Co-ops are -golden- if you want to actually get a job when you get out. Besides, it's -way- better than any other summer job you're going to find flipping burgers, selling shit at Walmart or doing construction back in your parent's hometown.
 
Regarding amoeba's above: QF-Major-T. I just didn't see a need to quote it.

The points I'll repeat (Grad student in Comp Eng):

Programming is secondary. The emphasis in CS/CompE (once you leave the first couple years) is design. Programming is still important, sure (particularly to us engineers, as a design that can't see production seems kinda silly to us), but it's the stuff that computers will be doing in 10 years, if not sooner.

*Nix: Know your computers. Be competent to work with them. I've seen a lot of students who learn their programming but can scarcely navigate a directory or figure out where their makefile dumped the compiled binary. *Big* disadvantage. Be comfortable enough that you spend your time on the assignments, not setting up the computer to do the assignments.

Internships / coops are very very good. Undergraduate research, likewise, is good. Lots of places want, for instance, 2 years experience in a new hire, but summers spent doing real technical work (where you can point and say "here's something I did that someone else uses to make a living") can get you in right out of school.
 
binary digit said:
CS has prolly the largest career path. There are so many different jobs that you can do with a computer science degree and so many different areas it is crazy. I'd like to know why you think that there is small career path.
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OK. But the reason I said it was: having graduated a few years ago (choosing not to do CS) I see many of the recent grads I knew who were in CS with worse jobs than I. Could have been that the market got saturated as many of those kids started up in CS in the late nineties when everything looked rosy and graduated in a post 9/11 world. The point I was trying to make with my previous statement was that if you don't love CS and programming and all the things that go with CS, you may find yourself SOL if you were just looking for an easy career path as (at least in my experience) the market got saturated with people who did the same thing and now you have to really stand a head above to rest to get noticed.
 
The market just got saturated with a bunch of idiots who thought CS=$$. If you actually like CS and learn things above and beyond what you learn in a university then you should not have a problem. It won't require any effort on your part to stand out because you should stand out naturally as you are the one who probably programs for fun at home when you don't have a project to do. Some people stand out because they can use UNIX more then just using pico to edit a C++ file. You'd be surprised how many computer science majors cannot operate a computer very well.
 
CS isn't all programming. Obviously, it depends on where you go and what courses you choose to take, and the first couple years will be programming fundamentals. However, later courses involve things like operating systems, networking, and database stuff. Sure, you need to have a strong knowledge of programming to understand those things well, but it doesn't mean that you're going to be writing code all day. Very few people just sit in a cubicle and write code all day--you need to have other computer skills (as well as business skills and people skills) also. And I agree, there is a lot of stuff that they won't teach you in college about computing, because there's no way there would be time to. They're pretty much teaching you how to go out and teach yourself how to do whatever your specific job calls for--because, like I said, nobody sits in a cubicle all day writing simple math programs in C++.
 
I am a programmer. I mainly use C/C++ and VB.
The size of my class at the start of schooling was over 140 students. When I graduated, there was only about 20 left. This was back in 2000.
 
It's not an "Easy" career, and jobs are getting scarce (at least on the web programming front). I guess its not TOO bad, but a lot worse than it was before. The thing that matters more than anything is experience. Either experience you gain on your own or while employed. Without experience, you're gonna be just another person with a degree trying to command a high salary....


 
Shakezilla said:
Ok Im a senior at school and as all seniors do I am thinking about what I want to major in. I am seriously thinking of majoring in computor programming. I know that it is sometimes hard a fustrating but I love a chalenge. The programmers at my mom's work seem to like thier jobs and have a good time. I am just wondering what kind of knowledge should I have about programming before going to college with this as my major, right now I have pretty much no knowledge of programming. And also what is a typical starting salary and a typicla salary. Thanks for any help you can give and sorry if something like this is already posted.
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Can you see yourself spending 40+ hours a week sitting at a desk hammering out code or figuring out the "best way" to do it? How about having your task changed at the last minute or being given impossible deadlines and staying up until some ungodly hour trying to make it.

That could be your life for years and years until you get burnt out.

If you think programming is a fun hobby then make sure you keep it at that: a hobby. Make sure you evaluate what you want to do fully before comitting yourself to a huge (and it will be huge) university debt.

Just remember, unless you're extremely talented or lucky you'll be doing menial crap for the first few years of your career.

Then again, programming is fun.;)
 
I know this has been said a bunch of times, but I'll mention it one more time as well. If you're considering programming as a degree, you must your languages! I started out in CS, without ever knowing any programming other than basic. [you may all laugh now.] I wish I had taken more programming classes in high school.

Another thing mentioned is math. You should be quite comfortable with your math skills.

The other classes you'll take along the way, like logic and proofs, etc, you should be able to figure out.

Sorry if this information is just repeating what other people have already said, but I wish someone had told me all of this stuff before.
 
I'd just like to reiterate the importance of obtaining internships or co-op positions while attending university. It's extremely important.

Unfortunately I was in certain financial constraints which required me to hold restaurant jobs at night and go to class during the day to pay for things. This left no time for internship positions of any significance, and has subsequently made my getting a job after graduation a complete shitfest.

Don't make this same mistake. . .the aftermath really sucks ass.
 
You've already received quite a bit of good information from others, so there really isn't much that I can add to the discussion that hasn't been said. But there is one thing I really want to add: Don't pick C++ as a first language! I've read your posts and it seems you're seriously considering C++. Don't. C++ was my first language, and today I can see that an easier language would've been more beneficial, especially since I was completely self-taught. (I'm not by any means saying C++ is bad; but it's pretty damn obvious that it wasn't built to be beginner-friendly.)

Try out other languages such as Python, or even Java! I would highly recommend taking a class, especially if it's at a community college. Unfortunately, there are people out there who bash community colleges and think they're crap--don't listen to those people. I'm a first-semester CS major, and before college I was self-taught in C++ during high school, and I truly thought taking a class would really be no different than laying on my bed and reading a book. But it really does make a difference having someone to talk to and answer your questions, honestly. And here's the most important thing about taking a class: They make you work. If you're self-taught, you can get away with reading all the material in the book and never working on projects. But programming is like playing a musical instrument; you can look at the sheet music all day long, but until you actually get your fingers moving, you won't learn a damn thing.

Also, having a nice professor who is helpful (and doesn't have an accent or any other annoying qualities) is very important. When you're going into college and signing up for classes, go to www.ratemyprofessor.com and read the reviews for different professors and choose accordingly. Having a bad teacher really does make a difference and if you can avoid it then you must.
 
So according to two guys I shouldnt start off with C++, python(never heard of it) or java is easier and more user friendly?

Thanks for all the help and advice I never thought I would get this much. It should really help me in deciding a major.

I think I am more lost now than I was before but at least now I can make more informed decisions.
 
I'm a third year computer engineering major at UC Davis, and if theres one suggestion I can make its don't do computer science/engineering if you wish to have a social life and/or girlfriend. You will find yourself very accustomed, on Friday and Saturday nights when your friends and roommates ask you to go party/see a movie/get high/play video games, to saying "I can't dude, I've got a programming assignment that I've already spent 2 hours on that I'm only about 25% of the way through. Someone must have given Sean Davis caffeine before he wrote the assignment again. Then I've got to reread all my stuff on Linked Lists and interators before my midterm on Tuesday. Then I've got that math and physics homework to do for Monday. Then I was hoping I might be able to pretend to sleep for three hours before I get to start again tomorrow." This will all be said whilst you refill your Mountain Dew IV bag. On the other hand when you sit in your C++ class and hes handing back the midterms then says 50% of the people failed and you got an A its all worth it. Oh wait, I'm rambling aren't I? Must be the lack of sleep + caffeine. Anyway, computer programming is tough. But its amazingly satisfying at the same time. I recommend it 113%.

-zac
 
pr0zac said:
don't do computer science/engineering if you wish to have a social life and/or girlfriend. You will find yourself very accustomed, on Friday and Saturday nights when your friends and roommates ask you to go party/see a movie/get high/play video games, to saying "I can't dude
Click to expand...

QFT.
 
My story is very different from everyone else's path here.... I never wanted to do the programming stuff... but i liked computers... so I stumbled upon CIS (at Ga State)- called MIS at other institutions.... its basically a business degree with some programing, some analysis and design and other electives. A year and a half ago, I added on accounting as a second major (only 6 more classes). For the past 8 months, i've been co-oping at a fortune 100 company doing code-monkey type tasks, however, this has opened the door to many job offers.

One is in the accounting/IT audit arena (poking code monkey's implementation of security & change management), the other is full time at the fortune 100 company. Both offers are quite good from the financial standpoint....

This being said... code-monkeys that understand business are in demand in the states. Standard code monkeys can be obtained in india for cheap, but they can't work side by side with the execs of a company on designing, building and implementing an information system to deliver mission critical data to the key decision makers. This type of work is most likely to lead you to becoming one of the key decision makers of the organization.

As for during college experience, if you can swing it, try to sign up with either a fortune 100 company or a "big 4" accounting firm- when you're job hunting for full time your senior year, it will turn everyone's head. Going to a university in a major city is very useful for this- it enables me to work half a day and goto class the other half of the day (as class is across the street from work)
 
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