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How is the IT field?

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I just read this thread here: http://seeker.dice.com/olc/thread.jspa?threadID=11648&start=0&tstart=0

And wow, that really scares and depressed me. Just graduated from high school and working for an AAS (yes, not the best) for networking and security (I want to be sort of a systems admin later on).

Is what those people say in that thread true? This is giving me a heart attack. I've never really liked and see myself as anything else but a computer guy!
 
Reading the first page I get the feeling a lot of those people saying abandon IT have been fired recently.

They all seem to be of the opinion that IT abandoned them, so they should abandon IT.

But others make a good point that IT is a very large field. Desktop support is not the same as systems administrator which is not the same as application developer. But they are all being called "IT"
 
>>Pay is low for hardware and desktop support, but these too groups have nothing in common, yet are lumped into the IT bucket. <<

Hardware & Help Desk -----> $8.00 to $18.00\hr for a person with a bachelor's degree AND several high-level certs!!!! Same positions a few years earlier required only an AAS or less..............

>>Pay is not low compared to other professions, for software development, DBA, COTS implementations, etc.<<

Oh yeah???? System Administrator, 5+ years experience with Windows, Macs, and Linux, along with Cisco networking, 1000 node network, MCSE, CCNP, CCVP, master's degree required $35-50k. DBA, 10+ years experience with MS Access, MS SQL, Oracle, MySQL, PHP, etc., etc., master's degree required $50 - 80k.

You're going to have a hard time finding a position more advanced than Help Desk with anything less than a master's degree ................
Click to expand...
um rofl that doesnt sound right
 
The entire IT industry will be going through a major shift over the next two years, basicly there will be two levels soon, low end desktop, and high end, there will be no mid level engineering level. This is going to make it very difficult to advance in the field for a lot of people.

The reason i say this is because of the technology shift that is approaching which includes cloud computing. As software goes to the cloud, companies IT will basicly become virtual, virtual desktops company wide are right around the corner (both OS and Apps will be delivered to the end user virtually). This will create a huge shift in employee demands.

Companies will no longer need high end engineers to support them, that support will come with the cloud services (i.e. exchange in the cloud, hosted applications). companies will only need people to support desktops and nothing more, and with virtual delivery, you won't have pc's getting all gunked up, you can deliver one clean boot image to the user which never changes unless you make it.

IT consultants will have to shift gears as well, becoming more business IT in nature. We will have to consult more on business needs and cross sell the IT hardware/software into it. Its gonna be a hard shift to deal with and a lot of consultants will not make the shift. A lot of consultants are IT geeks not business consultants.

Over the past two years, Managed Services has come into frutation, this model is about to die out, its just part of the industry, and it will look completely different over the next few years.
 
k1pp3r said:
The entire IT industry will be going through a major shift over the next two years, basicly there will be two levels soon, low end desktop, and high end, there will be no mid level engineering level. This is going to make it very difficult to advance in the field for a lot of people.

The reason i say this is because of the technology shift that is approaching which includes cloud computing. As software goes to the cloud, companies IT will basicly become virtual, virtual desktops company wide are right around the corner (both OS and Apps will be delivered to the end user virtually). This will create a huge shift in employee demands.

Companies will no longer need high end engineers to support them, that support will come with the cloud services (i.e. exchange in the cloud, hosted applications). companies will only need people to support desktops and nothing more, and with virtual delivery, you won't have pc's getting all gunked up, you can deliver one clean boot image to the user which never changes unless you make it.

IT consultants will have to shift gears as well, becoming more business IT in nature. We will have to consult more on business needs and cross sell the IT hardware/software into it. Its gonna be a hard shift to deal with and a lot of consultants will not make the shift. A lot of consultants are IT geeks not business consultants.

Over the past two years, Managed Services has come into frutation, this model is about to die out, its just part of the industry, and it will look completely different over the next few years.
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Where are you getting your info because for the most part, I would have to say you are dead wrong. The last two companies that I worked for both have in-house apps that could not be ran in a cloud environment. 95% of their environments could not be ran in a cloud environment. Both of these companies are large companies (one has 15,000+ employees, the other has 5,000+ employees) and are the type of companies that shape the industry. It's all too often that we have one of the major players in our offices working with us designing a new product, or getting feedback on a new product.

The part I agree with is yes, cloud computing is going to happen, it'll be ideal for some models ,but so many companies have customized applications that would not work in a cloud environment. Desktops have already been virtualized, every major company i know of is using virtualized desktops to some extent. Every part of these transitions are going to still need low, mid, and upper level engineers. Those titles will always be part of the corporate environment, their roles will change (as they always are) but none of them will be eliminated.

To the OP, around my area, the tech industry is still going nuts. To give you an example, I recently updated my resume (just to keep it current) on a couple job boards and I've had non-stop calls of head hunters trying to get me in to an interview. I'm not really looking right now so I pass them by. I also have a couple standing offers on the table. I could quit my job Monday morning and have another job by COB Monday. The industry is really strong around my area. I know in some parts of the country it sucks, but those parts also don't have a lot of the leading-edge tech either. IMO, do what you love, be good at what you love, and you won't have anything to worry about. Always be open minded with job opportunities and no matter what you may think, you are never too good for a job. ;)
 
SMB consulting is still absolutely EXPLOADING! Not enough of us out there, phone is too busy. It's nuts...
 
IT is doing great in the Seattle area.

There are a lot of jobs out there of all levels.

You have to understand that it's not like the late nineties where any kid with a basic understanding could get a killer job. Now it's competitive. That doesn't mean it's going away. It means you have to try hard now just like you would in any other industry. There is now global competition with outsourcing. But trust me, outsourcing, and cloud computing, is not taking over the industry. You still have a good chance of shining much brighter than what is available from outsourcing.

My advice is, if you like it and enjoy it, do it. Just take it seriously and do the best that you can. Maybe you're not MIT material (or maybe you are). Just do the best you can and don't worry about it.

You know what the best IT skill is in my opinion? It's not just good technical skills. It's your ability to communicate highly technical details with business people that don't understand them as well as you. If you can do that, you are golden. You will always be needed.
 
Corporate IT is great if you like long hours, crappy pay, and lots of politics. Just don't get into it for the money. You have to really love what you do.
 
I've rarely worked longer than 40 hours/week in 50,000+ organizations. I even know Microsoft IT employees who don't work more than 40.
 
mryerse said:
I've rarely worked longer than 40 hours/week in 50,000+ organizations. I even know Microsoft IT employees who don't work more than 40.
Click to expand...

I must say this is the one redeeming factor of corporate....
You have so many other people, and so much structure, that you can be gone and very few notice it ;)
 
oakfan52 said:
Corporate IT is great if you like long hours, crappy pay, and lots of politics. Just don't get into it for the money. You have to really love what you do.
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I find it hard to believe with as many certifcations you list in your signature that you're having an issue with pay. The other stuff comes with the territory. Or does anyone really think that a high level system administration job doesn't require long hours and politics?
 
oakfan52 said:
Corporate IT is great if you like long hours, crappy pay, and lots of politics. Just don't get into it for the money. You have to really love what you do.
Click to expand...

With your VCP alone you'd be in incredibly high demand/pay in certain areas.

Yes you'll be pulling in retarded hours if you're working for a startup or other small company, in a corporate environment you'll rarely need to or even be asked to unless the world is ending.

I read through the first couple posts in the thread the OP linked and those posting back are either incompetent, lazy, or a combination of the two. Of course you need to keep learning, walking into any technology related job and expecting that your current skill set will still be up to date 5 years down the road is lunacy.

>>Pay is low for hardware and desktop support, but these too groups have nothing in common, yet are lumped into the IT bucket. <<

Hardware & Help Desk -----> $8.00 to $18.00\hr for a person with a bachelor's degree AND several high-level certs!!!! Same positions a few years earlier required only an AAS or less..............

>>Pay is not low compared to other professions, for software development, DBA, COTS implementations, etc.<<

Oh yeah???? System Administrator, 5+ years experience with Windows, Macs, and Linux, along with Cisco networking, 1000 node network, MCSE, CCNP, CCVP, master's degree required $35-50k. DBA, 10+ years experience with MS Access, MS SQL, Oracle, MySQL, PHP, etc., etc., master's degree required $50 - 80k.

You're going to have a hard time finding a position more advanced than Help Desk with anything less than a master's degree ................
Click to expand...

You can get $13/hour in Ottawa working at a call center that requires no certifications/education at all. At IBM I'm working next to people who have no formal education past high school and they're making more than double that. The person quoting those numbers either lives in the back woods of Missouri where making $50k effectively makes you a millionaire or they're just pulling numbers out of their asses.

Now I'll admit there are alot of jobs out there that will pay poorly and treat you like trash, that's why you need to shop around. Work experience is far more important to many employers than a formal education, a combination of the two is even better. From what I've read and seen location can play an enormous role in finding a good job in the IT sector as well, shop around and don't be afraid of relocation if you find a job that's really what you want.
 
Phew, thanks, makes me feel a bit better.

It makes sense they're complaining now that I think about it. They're posting in a job search board.. doh
 
I'm trying to switch careers into IT myself. I'm seeing many small companies that are moving from contracting to full time staff. Seems like a good way to go for someone qualified that wants to build skills. Probably long hours though.
 
The most valuable tool in an IT workers arsenal? Business sense.

Without it, I will have you working 80 hours/week at below market pay on the weekend and during the holidays (and no, you would not be earning time and a half).
 
supergper said:
Where are you getting your info because for the most part, I would have to say you are dead wrong. The last two companies that I worked for both have in-house apps that could not be ran in a cloud environment. 95% of their environments could not be ran in a cloud environment. Both of these companies are large companies (one has 15,000+ employees, the other has 5,000+ employees) and are the type of companies that shape the industry. It's all too often that we have one of the major players in our offices working with us designing a new product, or getting feedback on a new product.

The part I agree with is yes, cloud computing is going to happen, it'll be ideal for some models ,but so many companies have customized applications that would not work in a cloud environment. Desktops have already been virtualized, every major company i know of is using virtualized desktops to some extent. Every part of these transitions are going to still need low, mid, and upper level engineers. Those titles will always be part of the corporate environment, their roles will change (as they always are) but none of them will be eliminated.
Click to expand...


I get my information from CEO's of the companies that drive the managed services industry. The change won't affect 15K employee companies becuase they become the cloud for their customers. I'm referring to SMB managed services and consulting. The change will not happen tomorrow, but its coming. I will leave it at that.
 
Hrmm, I live in northern Chicagoland area and there's a definitely fair amount of listings on Craigslist, both for entry level and high level positions, which is great. Problem is, even entry level (help desk I) require an associates degree (usually bachelor's) AND 1-5 years experience. I've rarely seen one that doesn't list at least 1-5 years prior experience :( I've tracked down a couple but never get a reply back from them. Granted I don't have any degree just yet, still working on it. But I guess there is definitely a future here.

Even with an associates, I'd say it would fairly easy to get started if you are persistant enough. And with a couple of years of experience under the belt, I'd be well on my way to a stable career with lots of options (at least from what I can see right now with my naive eyes)
 
IMO, an associates is plenty unless you plan to go into management. You can go quite high without a bachelors as long as you stay in technical jobs. They will care more about what you know and your work ethic than your degree. And that's why they want 5+ years experience more so than degrees.
 
Just because they say 1-5 years, doesn't mean you shouldn't at least try and apply. Generally the things posted on a job posting are 'recommendations.' If you're lucky enough to pull an interview, dazzle them there. Resume's mean shit if you can prove you're willingness to learn to someone especially in the lower level jobs and show them you have a good personality.

This is just what I've seen after being able to interview the two guys that came on to fill our two level 1 positions. My boss is nice enough to let us get to ask potential candidates questions. More so because we have to work with them, and our group is pretty tight nit. You don't have to be a rocket scientist, but if you're don't show us a willingness to learn and have a good personality, we'll black ball your ass. We went through at least 10 interviews until we found the two guys we picked up. Straight out of college, very little experience but showed a hunger for knowledge and a great personality. After their 90 day contract, they were hired.
 
Gillette said:
You can get $13/hour in Ottawa working at a call center that requires no certifications/education at all. At IBM I'm working next to people who have no formal education past high school and they're making more than double that. The person quoting those numbers either lives in the back woods of Missouri where making $50k effectively makes you a millionaire or they're just pulling numbers out of their asses.

Now I'll admit there are alot of jobs out there that will pay poorly and treat you like trash, that's why you need to shop around. Work experience is far more important to many employers than a formal education, a combination of the two is even better. From what I've read and seen location can play an enormous role in finding a good job in the IT sector as well, shop around and don't be afraid of relocation if you find a job that's really what you want.
Click to expand...

do people with CS degrees even do help desk? I dont know much but I'd assume that only happens when you're completely out of options and just scrapping the bottom of the barrel
 
eon said:
do people with CS degrees even do help desk? I dont know much but I'd assume that only happens when you're completely out of options and just scrapping the bottom of the barrel
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Most of the businesses I deal with have *everyone* that's fresh out of college start off at the company helpdesk no matter what degree you have. For them it's an easy way to see how good you are without letting you touch anything critical and most especially see how abrasive your personality is towards the users. If your good enough, it seems 6 months is the usual tour of duty at the desk.

Oh and IT is miserable in my area. HP / Micron / DHL and several other large employers have let thousands of IT personal loose upon the market.
 
eon said:
do people with CS degrees even do help desk? I dont know much but I'd assume that only happens when you're completely out of options and just scrapping the bottom of the barrel
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My wording wasn't too clear - I don't work at a help desk. I do product support for Cognos BI and I sit next to people with 15+ years of experience as DBAs, network administrators, system administrators, AIX admins, etc... Starting pay is ~$55,000/year (~$30/hour), it's not a help desk :p

As I described we've got people here ranging from high school dropouts to those with multiple master's degrees. Background, knowledge, and more importantly willingness to learn are the most important things - not a piece of paper you hang up in your cubical/office.

Perhaps other employers don't think the same way, but I'd say IBM has been pretty successful with this train of thought :p

As QHalo said - it's worth applying for these jobs even if you don't have the "recommended" prerequisites, something on your resume may spark their interest and if you can get a referral from a current employee (who doesn't suck at their job) that's an even bigger plus.
 
If you find a way in to government work, the IT career field will always be there. I joined the Air Force to get my start. 6 years of Active Duty/almost hitting 2 years in the Reserves and I also work as a Civilian on a an AFB. The work will always be there, but finding a way in is sometimes the biggest hurdle.
 
Become an air traffic controller, don't laugh, I know somebody who just retired in his late 40's with a full pension. He doesn't have to do a goddamn thing the rest of his life if he doesn't want to, house, car, everything is paid off, plenty of money saved up. He was making $170,000 a year when he retired. Yes it's a stressful field but so is IT. Also good luck getting a full retirement plan with most companies, you have to cover your own ass.
 
Madnes5 said:
Qualified people will NEVER have a hard time finding a job in IT. Qualified people enjoy technology and like to understand how computers work. They'll learn things on their own and learn new technologies (like "cloud computing") that will keep their skills current and allow them to grow with the industry. They'll be well versed in most areas of IT because it interests them. They'll be in demand because they understand the technology and they can solve problems.

Unqualified people chase meaningless certs or take classes at ITT Tech until they get a support desk job that pays the bills. Some of them even have good work ethics which allow them to get promoted or land some semi-cushy job at a small business where they're the "IT guru" when in reality they have a mediocre understanding of IT at best. They view IT as a job and rarely bother to read up or pay attention to new advances in technology. Sadly, most don't know how little they know about computers and will feel they are "indispensable". They'll be the ones whining when they get laid off or their job gets outsourced because they can't fathom that what they learned in 6 months, someone else can also learn in six months and do it cheaper. Unqualified people are typically identified in a number of ways including, getting upset at younger more qualified workers because they can do the job better and learn things in half the time, refusing to make decisions out of fear that they'll be wrong and be held responsible and possibly be fired, or think that working at a government job or a utility is great because it's "safe".

Which one are you?
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:eek: Easy killer.
 
I know people who eat sleep and shit computers/technology and are extremely qualified and knowledgeable... and got laid off. Many companies will lay people off who are very knowledgeable and outsource their positions overseas to other people who are equally knowledgeable so they can save $$. If they can get the same quality person for cheaper that's who's getting hired.

In any business you're a number, if you think because you keep your skills current you won't get dumped by a company trying to cut back..think again. If you think the company you work for will never have a hard time..think again. A government job is nothing to thumb your nose at and many people don't take them because they're "safe", they consider them more secure. Plus they can actually retire at a decent age and have a full retirement plan.

Not dumping on the IT field, but I have seen many good people go down the pipe.
 
number69 said:
I know people who eat sleep and shit computers/technology and are extremely qualified and knowledgeable... and got laid off.
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You're right. Our statements are not mutually exclusive. Good people get laid off all the time. They're also finding new jobs because despite the economy there is still demand for qualified people. It may take a bit longer than it used to and salaries might be a little less, but the jobs are still out there. See this article as an example.
 
Madnes5 said:
You're right. Our statements are not mutually exclusive. Good people get laid off all the time. They're also finding new jobs because despite the economy there is still demand for qualified people. It may take a bit longer than it used to and salaries might be a little less, but the jobs are still out there. See this article as an example.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the link it's a good read.

You're right about it taking longer for qualified people to find new jobs. I talked to a few buds over the past month who are having a tough time and they know their stuff. They're not new to the IT field in any way shape or form and mirror what you said about the help desk people with paper certs. They detest them.
 
I think the IT field is fine for those with the appropriate background, knowledge, skills and abilities. If you're focused in an area of need that requires the skillset that you have, you're not going to have a problem finding and maintaining employment.

For example, I work for a large accounting company doing IT security, audit and advisory work. I've built up enough valuable skillsets over the past 4 years with the company, that I would be glad to get laid off in the next round of cuts because I know that I'll be able to find a new job with a different company making a significantly higher amount of money and working less hours as a result.

I've spoken with many executives over the course of the years, and they indicate that they have a need for skilled IT people, especially those with a strong business background, as most of their best workers are those that started their career before the computer age in the business side of the house, and transitioned into IT. A lot of those are retiring over the coruse of the next few years, and many without viable replacements at this point. I also see security and compliance being a big growth area that can't be offshored due to its nature - PCI compliance (for those who process credit card transactions), NAIC requirements (coming up for insurance companies in 2010), JSOX, SOX, HIPPA, other privacy arenas, etc etc etc.

If you get some experience in and/or training in the areas of need, you'll have no problem finding a job that you enjoy. I would agree with those that IT is one of the fields where the people in it love their work, and often work 50+ hour weekson a regular basis - its one of those that makes me think computers are better as a hobby and I should work in maybe finance or accounting with the whole 36 hour work week to re-establish a proper work/life balance....
 
Schro said:
For example, I work for a large accounting company doing IT security, audit and advisory work. I've built up enough valuable skillsets over the past 4 years with the company, that I would be glad to get laid off in the next round of cuts because I know that I'll be able to find a new job with a different company making a significantly higher amount of money and working less hours as a result.
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Sounds funny... I would just quit my current job if I KNEW that's how it was going to be.
 
yamahaSHO said:
Sounds funny... I would just quit my current job if I KNEW that's how it was going to be.
Click to expand...

TechieSooner said:
Yea, I would too.
If you knew you could get better working conditions (less hours) AND more pay... I wouldn't hesitate.
Click to expand...

While this is generally at true statement, the longer I stay, the better the end goal - If I leave now, I'd probably land at a low ranking manager level somewhere in the $80k ballpark. If i stick around another year or two, I'd likely end up at $100k+ at a director level or better.

Basically, whenever I decide to jump (or they tell me to), i'm looking at a 15-30% pay raise, and starting to level out at that point. My salary here is up 50% since I started 4 years ago - I figure I'd wait it out a little longer for the right opportunity.
 
Schro said:
While this is generally at true statement, the longer I stay, the better the end goal - If I leave now, I'd probably land at a low ranking manager level somewhere in the $80k ballpark. If i stick around another year or two, I'd likely end up at $100k+ at a director level or better.

Basically, whenever I decide to jump (or they tell me to), i'm looking at a 15-30% pay raise, and starting to level out at that point. My salary here is up 50% since I started 4 years ago - I figure I'd wait it out a little longer for the right opportunity.
Click to expand...


Engineers make horrible managers just like managers make horrible engineers.
 
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