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nitrobass24

[H]ard|DCer of the Month - December 2009
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I am looking at buying a condo, and I want to Install networking and A/V distribution throughout.

Im trying to go with a more integrated approach.
Budget.....im not sure. I dont need anything thats going to get me on the news, but I only want to do this once, so I want to do right.

So here we go:

I have a closet that I am going to designate the "Server Room" and it will house my WHS and Encoding Server plus networking equipment in my Dell 42u cabinet.

I want 4 TV's:
Living room - have rg59
Bedroom 1 - have rg59
Bedroom 2 - have rg59
Kitchen...no Connections yet

I would like to put all the equipment for the main living room setup in the "server room". Ideally I would have the STB and receiver all on the rack.

I dont ever play DVD's or Blurays from disc...they are all ripped and stored on my WHS.

I'm not sure how I am going to play my stuff from my WHS. I was thinking either getting a Popcorn Hour or building a mini-itx HTPC for each.
Before/currently I have a computer in everyroom and/or have been using my monitor as television.

What would you do?
 
Heres what I am thinking
1zbz1h3.jpg
 
Last edited:
i would build a small htpc for each room. the possibilities basically become limitless when you go that route. the only problem would be cost, but i think you can do it for $250 each if you try.
 
spacetrader said:
i would build a small htpc for each room. the possibilities basically become limitless when you go that route. the only problem would be cost, but i think you can do it for $250 each if you try.
Click to expand...

But how would you sync all your data. You would still need a central server.
 
Well what I am trying to figure out is.....do I even need a dedicated client for each TV?

I mean could I have:
WHS...where ALL data is stored.
2 HTPC's connected to network in the same room

If I used like a Matrix switch could I just choose which HTPC to use when I went into a certain room?
 
I think cost wise and easeof use, individual clients will be the best. An Amd/ nvidia8200 htpc for each. Butcheck out avsforums formore on the subject
 
If you run something like SageTV (MediaPortal also has the same capability, not sure about XBMC), you run the SageTV server on the PCs where you have your media files stored. You can have multiple SageTV servers running. And then you can run a SageTV client on each client computer, where you can choose with SageTV server to run from. The client will stream video from the servers. I think you can configure the quality of the stream, so it still looks good.

Or you can just build a bunch of little client computers, have them run something like XBMC, and give them access to the shared folders so you'll be streaming without compressing anything.
 
Adidas4275 said:
I think cost wise and easeof use, individual clients will be the best. An Amd/ nvidia8200 htpc for each. Butcheck out avsforums formore on the subject
Click to expand...

Yea I know I can do it cheaper/keep it the way I have it....but I feel lilke it could be done better...besides replacing all the PC's.

eli2k said:
If you run something like SageTV (MediaPortal also has the same capability, not sure about XBMC), you run the SageTV server on the PCs where you have your media files stored. You can have multiple SageTV servers running. And then you can run a SageTV client on each client computer, where you can choose with SageTV server to run from. The client will stream video from the servers. I think you can configure the quality of the stream, so it still looks good.

Or you can just build a bunch of little client computers, have them run something like XBMC, and give them access to the shared folders so you'll be streaming without compressing anything.
Click to expand...

I dont really want to use like XMBC or MediaPortal....I guess its a comfort thing.
Id like to keep it all windows.....except I may install Sage Server for backend recording....not sure how Im going to get digital TV yet. I currently dont record TV using a HTPC....I just have STBs at all of them.


Ideally I would like to have only a power cable, and HDMI cable go from the wall to the TV.
Nothing else should be in the room....I mean NOTHING.....No receivers, PS3, DVD, BluRay, etc.

Im trying to find a good 4x4 Matrix Switch.
Im going to use Cat6 for the runs....does anyone know what the difference/pros/cons of unshielded vs sheilded vs quad sheilded?

Also I am finding that Baluns are quite expensive but for like my component video baluns...I feel like I could make those myself from parts at radio shack. Anyone have any thoughts on this?
 
spacetrader said:
he has a server. he is asking about clients
Click to expand...

Missed that out. Sorry.

Its good if you have clients for each room. I'm not sure you can run HDMI over long distances. Just a thought that you might have to take that into account.
 
If I were in your situation, I'd run a mini-ITX HTPC in each room, preferably Nvidia ION based, or nvidia 8200 based if you need a little more processing power. Each unit would cost roughly $350. You'd only need an ethernet connection, power cable, and HDMI cable. User interface could use something as simple as a MCE remote.

Every client would be capable of accessing a very wide variety of content from your server share. You could do DVD rips, Blu-ray rips, HD DVD rips, h264 encodes, etc.

The television is going to be the hard part. It all depends on what you want in each room, live TV or recorded TV.. standard def or high def.. encrypted/clear. The easiest route would be for each room to access the recorded TV that is handled on the server. WHS is compatible with a variety of TV tuners, and you can have it handle all the recording of your favorite shows to watch later, both high def and standard def. Anyone could access anything at any time, even simultaneously. If you wanted live TV on each, that's a different story. You'd need a tuner dedicated to each room, or in each computer. Things like SageTV, HDhomerun, or the Hauppauge HDPVR might be something to look into.

About the matrix switch.. you could do that. It would send audio and video to the room you choose from the PC you choose. The only thing semi-difficult about that is how to control the switch and/or computer from within each room.

As far as your cabling goes, your cat6 doesn't need to be anything super expensive for in-home use. UTP stranded general in-wall rated is all you need. Your HDMI (if doing a client in each room) would just need to be a short run, and 24AWG would be a good size to go with to get the best picture and sound quality. If you are going to do longer runs, anything over 50ft I'd recommend a powered repeater, and defnitnely have 22AWG CL2 in-wall rated cabling. Monoprice.com carries the cables I mentioned.
 
I would opt for three mini-ION boxes in the bedrooms and kitchen, all the exact same model and platform, so once you resolve a software setup on one the other two are exactly the same and can be ghosted or whatever. I'd make sure I get one that has the IR receiver for MCE remotes built in so as to save hardware space. For servicing them beyond daily use with the remote, I'd get one logitech dinovo mini for these and walk around with it, plugging it in via USB and using it for whichever of the boxes needs service. This should handle all your recorded streaming content (assuming your cat6 wiring).

I'd do a special different setup for the living room, since it looks like that will be a full blown theater room. I guess it kind of sounds like your server closet is on the other side of a wall there, so you can relocate lots there like your STB, etc. This you probably have a million options to figure out your needs.

It becomes really dicey if you want to watch live tv on the remote client boxes. There simply does not exist an easy solution for what you want yet, so if VOD and encrypted channels are important to you, this will be a snag. Personally, I can live with basic TV in my bedroom and kitchen, so I'd look into HD Homerun for limited live tv solutions, and rely on a combo of recorded TV to fill the gap.

If you can run a STB for your living room in the server room using blasters/relays or whatever, that'd be great if you need a location to handle premium channels in your prime viewing area.

This is probably an avsforum type question where you'd get a million responses. Good luck!
 
For servicing, he could set setup remote desktop. No need to even walk to each room. =)
 
So far it looks like most people recommend going with a client for each TV... so I will suggest the route I've taken. SageTV has a WHS plugin to provide you the media center/TV recording functionality on your existing WHS server. At each TV I would use a SageTV HD200 extender ($200 each). This gives me the ability to watch LiveTV from all my TVs, as well as watch DVD rips (haven't started down the BD route yet) and other videos, listen to music, etc. It also means I don't have to constantly tinker with 4 different boxes (server and 3 clients). The SageTV Placeshifter lets me watch TV/Video on my laptop both at home (like when my daughter is watching Backyardigans) in the same room, as well as when travelling (at a reduced quality of course). The HD200 also functions as a portable media device, something that was very nice on a trip to San Antonio so my daughter could still watch her shows before bed.

The one thing this doesn't give you that a PC client might is the ability to play video games, which I don't have time for. You also can't just plop a disk in and watch it, but you said you don't want to do this anyways.... Other than that, I haven't found a format that the HD200 extenders won't play.

Personally, the idea of using a Matrix switch to switch between "clients" seems like it would be a headache.

As for recording Digital, it depends on what digital you want. The HDHomeRun works great on my SageTV setup for QAM channels. I only subscribe to basic digital, so I haven't had a need for the Hauppauge HD-PVR yet. All of my recordings are either network (via QAM) or standard-def.

As for keeping things clean, the HD200 is small..... I've been thinking about getting an IR extender and mounting the box to the wall behind my LCD TV, except that I still have my stereo reciever because the integrated speakers on my TV suck.
 
Yea I like the HD200's for the most part....but it just does not get me what I *want*
Also with the HD200's im still stuck without a solution for watching live OD or encrypted channels.

So Im trying to figure out something else.
I realize I'm being difficult....but DAMN it should not be this hard.

I started a different thread that just relates to win7 TV recording. So if you know about win7 features I would like to know what you have to say.

Im gonna break this up into smaller parts so its easier to tackle, and Ive posted some parts to AVS as well.
 
I would just split the video/audio signal from the central media center and feed it to all the TV's. 1 RF remote, 1 computer. You wouldn't be able to watch different things on each TV, but if you're a hermit like me its not a problem. :)

Otherwise the best solution is a computer in each room.
 
nitrobass24 said:
I realize I'm being difficult....but DAMN it should not be this hard.
Click to expand...

It is that hard. You expect too much. Your perspective is off. Your budget is not big enough. :D This little "issue" you are having is not new. It is nearly a decade old now. The problem is every time a probem is solved a new one is created by advancing technology. Where we are now compared to even a few years ago is outstanding.

Home media is more integrated than ever before (clients, extenders, servers)
Home media is much cheaper than ever before (720p projector was $2k nearly 5 years ago, a 1080p is now ~$1k, client PC's <$400).
Home media is more enjoyable than ever before (HD video and audio)

You need to come to a point of balancing trade-offs. If you try for "it all", you will land up being unhappy with the result and spending way more than you should.

As for the HD TV content, that is solved problem for the most part.

Sage TV + Component Capture Caard + Digital Box + IR blaster = Problem Solved.

Is it simple, mostly
Is it cheap....not really, but not pocket blowing either
Elagent...oh hell no

But the function is met.
Click to expand...

As for the "drop in the disc issue", that is solved for the most part as well.

AnyDVD --> Rip to HDD. Use SageTV HD200's to play (don't even need the sage server). Even with BD's, this isn't a very long process. HD200's even support 7.1 LPCM IIRC.

Is it simple yes
Is it cheap, not really, but not pocket blowing either (need Any DVD and a Blu-Ray drive)
Elagent, not really, but not bad either
Click to expand...

What you really need to do is right down all the functions you want and the things that can do them. Try and pick the one that is the mot reasonable cost that does the most things. For those last few things that don't fit, figure out if you can live w/o or willing to buy that dedicated function for a single location.
 
his biggest problem is trying to get livetv into 4 different rooms without paying for 4 cable boxes. you can blame the cable tv companies for that.... for whatever reason, they feel the more tv's you have the more money you should spend (we only have two eyes, but were supposed to shell out huge money just to have the chance to watch cabletv in the other room)
 
spacetrader said:
his biggest problem is trying to get livetv into 4 different rooms without paying for 4 cable boxes. you can blame the cable tv companies for that.... for whatever reason, they feel the more tv's you have the more money you should spend (we only have two eyes, but were supposed to shell out huge money just to have the chance to watch cabletv in the other room)
Click to expand...

How often does needing Live TV w/ encrypted stations in 4 different rooms happen?
 
Trepidati0n said:
How often does needing Live TV w/ encrypted stations in 4 different rooms happen?
Click to expand...

you must not have kids. it can also happen for people without kids. workout rooms, kitchen, garage are all places that you don't normally watch tv, but there are plenty of times you certainly would like to. my point is, why do we have to pay for extra cable boxes when all we want is a little convenience?
 
Trepidati0n said:
How often does needing Live TV w/ encrypted stations in 4 different rooms happen?
Click to expand...

At the same time....Never
I only need it in one place at any given moment....but I would say that 50% of my TV watching requires it.
When I watch live TV most of the time its either PPV, or HBO/Cinemax
Other than that if I am watching live TV its a sports game.

What were you thinking?

I honestly can think I can get away with just 1 STB, and use a Matrix Switch...but then theres no point to do all that if Im just going to put a HTPC at every TV anyways.

Im trying to reduce the amt of equipment at TV as wells as # of boxes sucking electricity.
If I can have 1 HTPC, and 1 STB opposed to 4 HTPC's and 4 STBs....im saving at least $100 a month between STB leasing and electricity.
 
just do the one stb in the basement, and split off that to each tv. no need to have a switch, just let every tv see the same channel.

or, like i do, use orb in the basement server hooked to the stb. you should run ethernet to each room if you do that, but it works surprisingly well. this is nice because it even works with my cellphone.. or my laptop in the garage can become an instant tv (without any sort of software installed at the client side what-so-ever). also, orb works great with xbox's and a slew of other media extenders....
 
spacetrader said:
you must not have kids. it can also happen for people without kids. workout rooms, kitchen, garage are all places that you don't normally watch tv, but there are plenty of times you certainly would like to. my point is, why do we have to pay for extra cable boxes when all we want is a little convenience?
Click to expand...

Your logic is a bit lopsided. You aren't asking for a "little convenience". It is like the horny teenager who just wants to stick it in "a little". With modern digital TV's, nearly all channels are available if you have cable. There are few that don't..but not many. If you have kids, the channesl they "should" be watching are avaialble. If you have Satellite, you had to have a box anyways for each set. You already have a "little convenience", or would you care to go back to VCR's with tapes?
 
nitrobass24 said:
At the same time....Never
I only need it in one place at any given moment....but I would say that 50% of my TV watching requires it.
When I watch live TV most of the time its either PPV, or HBO/Cinemax
Other than that if I am watching live TV its a sports game.
Click to expand...

I think Sage can do that. As long as you are watching the same channel, you only need one turner regardless of the number of clients. This is what I remember working for me a few years ago. I will post on their forum and see if I can ge ta hit.
 
Just verified. Sage does as I thought. When SageTV "displays" a channel in live TV, it isn't really "live". What you are watching is the video file that the tuner is recording. Therefore if you had 10 different TV's all watching the same channel....you only need ONE tuner.
 
OK
so If I get one STB
One HD PVR
SageServer for WHS

I will be able to tune to HBO and the like?
What about PPV/OD?

Sorry for all the questions....I really appreciate all the help.
I have so much going on in my mind right now with other aspects that im getting dizzy.
 
Trepidati0n said:
Your logic is a bit lopsided. You aren't asking for a "little convenience". It is like the horny teenager who just wants to stick it in "a little". With modern digital TV's, nearly all channels are available if you have cable. There are few that don't..but not many. If you have kids, the channesl they "should" be watching are avaialble. If you have Satellite, you had to have a box anyways for each set. You already have a "little convenience", or would you care to go back to VCR's with tapes?
Click to expand...

i lost you when you compared vhs tapes to satellite television... but anyway the new digital tv's are exactly my point. why can tv's tune much of a cable's digital spectrum but not satellite? and besides even that, there is no reason one satellite STB cannot modulate to digital cable so all new tv's can tune it without multiple boxes. they should not charge you extra to hook up to a 3rd or 4th tv... just charge for the hardware if anything and not a monthly fee.
 
nitrobass24 said:
OK
so If I get one STB
One HD PVR
SageServer for WHS

I will be able to tune to HBO and the like?
What about PPV/OD?

Sorry for all the questions....I really appreciate all the help.
I have so much going on in my mind right now with other aspects that im getting dizzy.
Click to expand...

yes. the hdpvr just records the output signal on the stb.... there is no way for the stb to even know you are recording, it just sees the hdpvr as a tv. so anything you can see with your stb you can record with the hdpvr.
 
nitrobass24 said:
OK
so If I get one STB
One HD PVR
SageServer for WHS

I will be able to tune to HBO and the like?
What about PPV/OD?

Sorry for all the questions....I really appreciate all the help.
I have so much going on in my mind right now with other aspects that im getting dizzy.
Click to expand...

Yep, that should all work as long as you can pass the IR signals via firewire/serial/ir blaster. The only problem I see with it is that you don't like the SageTV interface :p Honestly, I don't really blame you, the default STV really sucks so I use SageMC, but not everyone is going to be happy with that or any of the other STVs. It just isn't as pretty as Windows Media Center for example. So that puts you back in the same question of how to get it to the PCs if you don't want the HD200 or SageTV clients. SageTV records everything to non-DRM MPEG2 format, so in theory you could watch any of the recordings from another player, but there wouldn't be a way to control the recording/tv channels from the clients.
 
the xbox360's make a fantastic windows media extender, that would be another option since you can snag the units for under $200. that would give you a windows mediacenter interface at each room and also livetv capable too. and of course, a ton of gaming potential.
 
nitrobass24 said:
OK
so If I get one STB
One HD PVR
SageServer for WHS

I will be able to tune to HBO and the like?
What about PPV/OD?

Sorry for all the questions....I really appreciate all the help.
I have so much going on in my mind right now with other aspects that im getting dizzy.
Click to expand...

Yes. I would hit up the SageTV forums to see what they recommend for the STB to Server connection/equipment. I know there are many people who do it. I did it for a whle w/ non-hd stuff (original SD satellite) and it worked out of the box. Also, sometimes if you have the right STB, you can just snake the data off via 1394. ;)

As for PPV/OD...you are hitting unreasonable territory. On Demand has also been a single point source viewing feature...as is PPV; always be relegated to the STB. There is no elegant way with ANY system out there to handle this *yet*. However, people are sorta trying to do workarounds....but definitely not elegant and approaching tedious.

As another point...people have gotten Hulu/Netflix to work with the HD200's. Lots of clever solutions are coming in. Are they elegant yet? No. Are they extremely difficult? Not really, an enthusiast should be able to handle it. Are they being constantly worked on because Sage is such an open platform...Abso-fucking-lutely.
 
Updated the Second post with a diagram.

Let me know what you think
 
Not yet.
At this point, im kind of waiting to close on the place, then im going to get an electrician in there, to see what I can about some things.

I think im gonna add two 30a circuits to the one closet so I can put everything in there, and have it also house my F@H farm
 
spacetrader said:
the xbox360's make a fantastic windows media extender, that would be another option since you can snag the units for under $200. that would give you a windows mediacenter interface at each room and also livetv capable too. and of course, a ton of gaming potential.
Click to expand...

i recently tried this, and while it is quite easy to set up, it isnt compatible with everything (codec/container support is lacking), and for some reason my setup struggled with a 1080p movie (buffering), even though the xbox indicated that there was enough bandwidth (all cabled)

the biggest downside for me, it wont handle dvd images/rips, i would have to re-encode all those dvd-rips, which i had selected as a rather good standard-format for ripping/burning/saving dvds...
 
nitrobass24 said:
Not yet.
At this point, im kind of waiting to close on the place, then im going to get an electrician in there, to see what I can about some things.

I think im gonna add two 30a circuits to the one closet so I can put everything in there, and have it also house my F@H farm
Click to expand...

Two 30's? Gonna hang some UPS'es off those?
 
Yes I'm gonna buy two of them and rackmount them at the very bottom.
This way my important stuff will stay on and it will provide enough weight that I won't have to bolt it to the floor.

I'm gonna buy a supermicro 2u twin nehalem box to do some 3d rendering as well as F@H.
 
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