Holy! Windows 7 is fasT!

While the multitasking is an issue, the copy/paste thing... that's a major one for many folks, especially ones that have used Windows Mobile since inception (/me waves). It does matter, and not having it automagically in the device's OS from day 1 is a big huge freakin' colossal mistake in my opinion.

I can get the idea behind the multitasking thing at first because yes third party stuff causes most of the problems - same thing with Windows as a computer OS: it works just fine on its own, but start adding third party software and wham, shit breaks and there's not much that can be done about it.

But no copy/paste from day 1... sorry, I'm not going for that. They're not Apple, it's not the iPhone, and even in spite of them starting from scratch with Windows Phone 7 and maybe possibly getting things right this time out, that's something that really seriously needs to be in there from day 1.

It'll be a big deal breaker for many reasons, including the simplest one of all: every other device on the market finally does it by default, so... how the hell can Windows Phone 7 not do it...
 
I'm reserving judgement on the copy/paste thing till I can use the device. If I hit a scenario where I do want to copy/paste and I can't, then I'll be annoyed. There are a lot of ways around it though that make more sense than using copy/paste. That will probably serve till they put it in, but we'll see.
 
Bahamut said:
While the multitasking is an issue, the copy/paste thing... that's a major one for many folks, especially ones that have used Windows Mobile since inception (/me waves). It does matter, and not having it automagically in the device's OS from day 1 is a big huge freakin' colossal mistake in my opinion.
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Copy and paste is a bigger deal than multitasking. 90% of multitasking on a phone is music playback and the phone itself which is supported in the initial Windows CE 7 release. Honestly a MUCH more important deal is fast task SWITCHING. A couple of the chapters in the in Windows 7 Phone Developer Training Kit deal with push notifications and tombstoning which on a phone are superior to multitasking if they can achieve the same user experience as those solutions are lighter on resources.

It would have been a BIG mistake for Microsoft to have delayed 7 Phone past this year to get copy and paste done. I've done enough software development projects to know that at a certain point, as long as you're not missing CRITICAL features, which copy and paste isn't otherwise Apple wouldn't have sold a bazillion iPhones without it, you're better off releasing than waiting. Microsoft simply HAD to get this out the door this year and they focused on the important stuff, speed and UI, getting that shit tight and then they can move on to other things. Sure it would have been better to have copy in paste there but not at the exspense of missing the 2010 Holiday Season. That would have been a TURE disaster.
 
I have been using Windows Mobile 5/6 for 4 years or so. I do not plan on getting anything with Windows Phone 7.

My biggest problems with the old platform were:
1. Lack of OS upgrades. I don't want to buy a new phone to go from WM 5 to WM 6 or WM 6 to 6.1. Some things were simply broken in certain versions with no official fix to be found. Select phones got an upgrade for 1 major version but most got nothing. This probably had something to do with the varying hardware. Each phone may have had its own set of unique drivers, requiring too much work/tesitng to push out an upgrade. And no, XDA doesn't count.

2. Lack of multimedia focus. Windows Mobile 6 makes a good phone for music playback. It supports a decent range of codecs, especially if adding a third party program for playback. Compatibility with PlaysForSure and Zune Pass music is a big feature. Unfortuantely, these phones were never marketd for multi-media, never given a great interface for it, and very rarely were given a 3.5mm headphone jack.

3. UI. The scroll bars and check boxes were a killer for this OS. One handed operation was hard-to impossible on many devices.

4. Speed. Many companies kept shipping new phones using barely updated hardware. This led a slow experience.


Microsoft realized these issues and fixed them all by locking down the platform. Unfortunately, the locked platform has turned this into an iPhone-ized experience. Features like files system access, registry access, VPN, tethering, micro SD, tons of settings, etc have been removed. Windows Mobile 6 felt like a PC in openness of the OS, The versatility of the platform is why I kept using it. No reason to consider it any more.

Seeing as how they locked down the specs, don't all of these WP7 phones seem like the same device with a slightly different shell? People keep saying WP7 will replace the Zune platform. I do not see this happening. Zune HD goes up to 64GB of storage. Will we see any WP7 with this much storage? Since they removed microSD, you can no longer upgrade your storage as your needs change. One of the biggest complaints for the Zune is that it doesn't have the huge amount of aftermarket support and integration that the iPod has. Limited number of accessories for it have hurt the platform. For WP7, each phone would likely need its own cases, screen protectors, docks etc. I doubt we will be seeing many of these that have an HDMI or optical dock like is available for the Zune HD. Seeing as how getting a 3.5mm port on phones has taken so long, I doubt they will be ready to go digital.

Everything about this release just seems watered down.
 
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jamesrb said:
Unfortunately, the locked platform has turned this into an iPhone-ized experience. Features like files system access, VPN, tethering, micro SD, tons of settings, etc have been removed. Windows Mobile 6 felt like a PC in openness of the OS, The versatility of the platform is why I kept using it. No reason to consider it any more. Seeing as how they locked down the specs, don't all of these WP7 phones seem like the same device with a slightly different shell?
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And none of these features sold enough phones. Windows 7 Phone is an attempt for Microsoft to get back into the game and not trying to be another Droid in openness or monolithic iPhone.
 
Beautiful glad msoft is on track I will def. consider a win7 phone next year
 
does anybody else think its kind've funny that in the original X86 OS days we had wars between who had multi-process support, and who didn't?

Here we are 20 years later, and the same feature now goes by a different name in a different space: does that phone support multitasking?

edit: also, Windows Mobile is a great name for the platform. Its funny that their switching to something that sounds so much more antiquated: Windows Phone, like what, Windows Telephone, or Windows Telecommunications Device. Its a shame theres such a stigma attached to Win Mo, because "windows Mobile" is a good way to summerize your device. I've never had a win mo phone so I cant speak to it, but Paul Thurott had a whole lot of yang to say about the platform (rather utilitarian, not very consumer oriented), so I just figured I should stay away from it.

But having switched from the ipod to Zune a ways back (and I still keep infrequent contact with iTunes), and I dont think I'll ever switch back. I really do hate itunes that much, just, all the stupid shit it put me through... (you have duplicated my music collection [twice] WHY exactly?) For the Zune software alone I'd go with Windows Phone 7.
 
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MrWizard6600 said:
does anybody else think its kind've funny that in the original X86 OS days we had wars between who had multi-process support, and who didn't?

Here we are 20 years later, and the same feature now goes by a different name in a different space: does that phone support multitasking?
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Intresting point. And it didn't matter that much then either did it? True pre-emptive multitasking on consumer Windows PCs didn't arrive until XP well after the war was over.
 
heatlesssun said:
Intresting point. And it didn't matter that much then either did it? True pre-emptive multitasking on consumer Windows PCs didn't arrive until XP well after the war was over.
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And Amigas had hardware-based multitasking way back in 1984 and computers today still don't do that... ;)

Ah, the good old days of Amigas, I miss those times.
 
Ah yes the Amiga, I remeber that machine very well like a lot of folks that lived in the 80s. Never saw one but eveyone talked about it as a fantastic computer but of course it never gained traction for various reasons.

You lost me on the hardware based multi-tasking point. What are multi-core and hyper-threaded CPUs for then? The Holy Grail of CPU design these days is ALL about multi-threading isn't it?
 
heatlesssun said:
You lost me on the hardware based multi-tasking point. What are multi-core and hyper-threaded CPUs for then? The Holy Grail of CPU design these days is ALL about multi-threading isn't it?
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It's tough to explain that one, but suffice to say the multitasking that we have in today's machines is still software-based because it's controlled by the software and the OS - on the Amigas the hardware itself (with a dedicated GPU and audio chip and other components) was designed to be able to support the functionality on the chip level and the software was then able to take advantage of it.

No matter how fast today's hardware gets, tasks are still controlled and function a tick at a time, in sequence, just incredibly fast and switched in and out of CPU usage as required giving the impression that it's all happening at the same time when in actuality it's not. Amigas could by the nature of their design do things based on the given task simultaneously across the multitude of components they were made up of, 25 years ago.

It's really tough to explain these days because the obvious retort will be "oh yeah, well today's machines have CPUs, GPUs, audio cards, etc etc and they do it nowadays too" and those people with those opinions are simply wrong. :D

Think of it this way and it might help:

Think back to a time when you or someone you know might have had an 8088 box, or if they were truly rich in those days, a 286, or even the super rich with a 386 or something. Now, if you remember those days, try to remember a time when you'd format a floppy disk (either those 8" monsters or the more popular - in the mid-80s - 5 1/4" versions).

If you remember correctly those particular tasks were all done in very strict PIO mode since DMA was still a decade away basically, and when you did format a floppy it would choke the shit out of the computer until the task was completed. It literally caused the PC to grind to a near-standstill until the format was done, and if it hit a bad sector on the floppy - very common thing in those days - it would just make so much racket and noise as the head kept trying to reset and reposition so it could try again. Most of the time in that situation the machine would just stay locked up so the "three finger salute" (aka Control+Alt+Delete) was the only saving grace.

But, contrast that with an Amiga, who in 1984-ish days introduced the 3.5" floppy as a major thing. Commodore also was getting that 1581 drive out for the C64/C128 in those days too but it was on the Amiga where it really took hold since Workbench loaded from (Kickstart was part ROM, obviously).

I owned an Amiga 500 with the internal floppy, 2.5MB of RAM (w00t!!!) and a second floppy drive as well. Now, the winner there was that I also had a 300 baud modem too, and I also had the machine set up to warm-reboot off a RAMdisk - seriously, I had a tiny 512MB RAMdisk set up and you could BOOT THE COMPUTER OFF IT... well, it was a warm boot since the RAMdisk was set up on a cold boot but, the point is that's something I was able to do in 1985-ish days that still can't be done on today's monster "Godboxes" with gigs upon gigs of RAM. SSDs are fast but, they still can't hold a candle to real RAM.

Where did the hardware multitasking come into this? Formatting a floppy was probably the very best example, and not just one, but two floppies at the same time on that Amiga 500, and when I did that on a fairly frequent basis (I helped distribute the Fred Fish library of Amiga freeware so I had to have that second drive) the machine never skipped a beat. I could even format floppies while playing a game like Killing Game Show from Psygnosis, one of my all time faves on the Amiga.

Formatting floppies had no bearing on the system's overall performance because the machine was built with hardware multitasking from the ground up and had a dedicated chip for I/O operations that offloaded all that stuff from the primary CPU, that good old Motorola 68000 CPU... ;)

Oh what fun times those were. Even at just ~7 MHz those things were simply fucking awesome machines, and I still call them the best personal computers ever made, even today.

As for the NT thing, uhmmm... no, Windows has always been a multitasking OS - that's the whole idea of "windows" as each window is a separate app running, at least in principle. If you are specifically talking about the kind of multitasking that NT introduced that was the preemptive multitasking that allowed for more efficient operation. Pre-NT OSes (the Win 3.x series and everything before) were cooperative multitasking.

Oh, by the way: the Amigas were preemptive multitasking computers because of that engineering genius and hardware design pretty much a decade before Windows got around to it. :D
 
Bahamut said:
A little out of context I suppose but, I have to ask: it was a complete wreck? Really? I never noticed, been using Windows Mobile and all its predecessors since the first PocketPC came out and I've never had any issues to speak of.

A complete wreck, eh... ok, if you say so.

NOT. :D
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This is precisely why you don't notice. You sound exactly like I did until April of this year.

I switched to Android and my mind was blown. I realized that all of the things I thought were normal on Windows Mobile were actually incredibly outdated, unintuitive, and just plain buggy/stupid.
 
"It's called progress..." :D

And I've used Android, somewhat extensively for doing reviews on products including the Droid, the Nexus One, and several other product such as the Archos 5 Android Tablet (if only Archos would support the damned thing instead of creating 24 other products this year it would help).

I suppose I just understand Windows Mobile, start to finish. Not much else I can say... I just don't find anything compelling about Android, or iPhone OS/iOS/whatever either. Never messed with any Symbian products, did use a lot of Palm devices over the past decade or so but, I always come back to Windows Mobile which just makes sense to me I guess.

While those things that you call "outdated, unintuitive, and just plain buggy/stupid" might actually be so in today's world, they are the "outdated, unintuitive, and just plain buggy/stupid" things that got us to where we are today. ;)

I have some high hopes for Windows Phone 7 (hate that name, they should not drop the Mobile moniker even with the stigma attached to it, really) but, I honestly don't need a smartphone - I have a nice phone that works and I have no intentions of getting rid of it anytime soon soooo...

Again my Dell Axim X51v enters the fray and continues to be my "PDA" of choice above pretty much anything else I've used. 6+ years of ownership and it just works. I don't think there's a device on the market today - none of them - that I would purchase today and still be using 6+ years from now like I have this Axim.

It is the single best electronics purchase I've ever made in my decades of being a gadget freak. :D
 
computerpro3 said:
This is precisely why you don't notice. You sound exactly like I did until April of this year.

I switched to Android and my mind was blown. I realized that all of the things I thought were normal on Windows Mobile were actually incredibly outdated, unintuitive, and just plain buggy/stupid.
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This has a LOT to do with the hardware, not all Driod phoes are free of problems. But perception is why Microsoft decided to start fresh and take MUCH more control of the hardware. More important than cut and paste and mutli-tasking, 7 Phones had to be FAST and SIMPLE. Windows 7 Phone is drop dead simple and intutive. One may or may not like it be can it get any damn simpler?
 
Bahamut said:
No matter how fast today's hardware gets, tasks are still controlled and function a tick at a time, in sequence, just incredibly fast and switched in and out of CPU usage as required giving the impression that it's all happening at the same time when in actuality it's not. Amigas could by the nature of their design do things based on the given task simultaneously across the multitude of components they were made up of, 25 years ago.
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Hmmm.... Sorry but I have to disagree here. This is very high level but basically it's my understanding of the subject and describes it pretty well and succinctly: http://zone.ni.com/devzone/cda/tut/p/id/6424

On systems with multiple-CPU cores on a true multitasking OS threads of execution on separete cores are INDEPENDENT of each other. Now of course that doesn't address the issue of resource contention and thread synchronization but that's entirely dependent on the situation. But a thread of execution own its on core is independent. Yes, that thread is time sliced at that level but its indepedent of other cores and their slices.

With what you're descibing, more cores would be useless because everything is going through a single task scheduler, cores would be idle waiting for a single task scheduler for time slices and that's just not how it works. Not trying to thread crap, if we need to we can take this subject to a new thread.
 
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Everyone hang on, we're going sideways!

On topic though, I recently overclocked my TP2 from 528 to around 760 and it's actually much nicer now that it's more snappy. I think speed has always been a problem for WinMo devices, though never enough of a problem to get me to switch. Now that I have a faster device though, I have no reason to think of switching anytime soon.
 
Good hardware has ALWAYS been a big problem for WinMo Phones, that's simply not going to be the case with 7 Phones, the hardware is top notch because Microsoft is MANDATING it.

Look at what 7 Phone has going for it:

1. Best hardware by mandate
2. Drop dead simple and attractive UI that will be CONSISTENT across devices that does an fantastic job of social network integration
3. Best in the business development tools that leverages the knowledge of MILLIONS of .Net developers, quality apps in time won't be a problem
4. Best in the business music subscrption service and media software (referring to the Zune HD not the Zune client)
5. The biggest question mark out there is the Xbox integration and gaming but if it's half as good as any of the other things it should be super sweet. If Microsoft has done ANYTHING to leverage Xbox developers for 7 Phone, and they have, there are going to be some VERY good games on 7 Phone

All of this won't be sunk by the lack of 3rd party multi-tasking and copy and paste, at least initally and I have yet to hear any other technical and usability criticims other than these two.

Yes, I'm a Microsoft fan boy but I've tried to look at 7 Phone objectively and this is the honest and rational conslusion that I've come to. Plus on top of all of this, 7 Phone is just different, new and shiny. That's a BIG selling point with phones whose customers have about a 30 second attention span before they want something new and different.

7 Phone won't kill the iPhone or Android but it will have its own place and fan base. This market is big enough for a dozen players to do well in I think and Microsoft will NEVER stop trying in this space. They will keep at it and at it until they have a hit. They simply have no other choice and they know it.
 
heatlesssun said:
2. Drop dead simple and attractive UI that will be CONSISTENT across devices that does an fantastic job of social network integration

7 Phone won't kill the iPhone or Android but it will have its own place and fan base.
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In my view it's going to supplant BlackBerry in the consumer space and RIM knows it. Their current ad campaign seems geared toward solidifying their flagging customer retention in that area. MS's offering appears to be utterly superior.
 
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