HL2 and +r_fastzreject

[Kern]

With all this +r_fastzreject stuff going on in regards to [H]'s benchmarks and HL2... let me propose a poll... in fact, I may even START a poll...

How many people with ATI cards... no, fuck it... how many people PERIOD have heard of this command BEFORE it was stated here? It IS apples to apples because the VAST consumer audience has no clue about it. They'll buy HL2, install it, and play it. Same with video cards. They look at the graphs, think they don't have to do anything, and they'll buy it (poor wording, but I meant reviews such as [H]).

If you don't know what I'm talking about here, vote no, because... well, you haven't heard of it before.

 

[tsuehpsyde]

I heard it brought up, but I have no idea what it does....can you specify for me?

 

[burningrave101]

I can guarantee you that very few people knew about his console command. Brent here at HardOCP hadn't even heard of it till someone said something about it in the HL2 thread lol.

 

[Kern]

I heard it brought up, but I have no idea what it does....can you specify for me?

I'm not a tech junkie... but ATI people are claiming it makes the game run faster on their cards. When Brent tested, he didn't have it enabled... nor knew about the command. I'm assuming not many people knew about the command, so, therefore, the test was a true apples to apples because that's how it came stock.

If you don't know about the command... you won't turn it on. You'll get the game and play it.

 

[the_village_treky]

heard of, no idea wtf it is

 

[Silverghost]

What about apples to apples. If you gonna make a thread here where no one knows about. then tell us what you know about it!

 

[Chris_B]

I enabled it and seen like a 2fps or so increase, then again according to beyond 3d the improment varies depending on map etc.

 

[Kern]

What about apples to apples. If you gonna make a thread here where no one knows about. then tell us what you know about it!

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THAT'S THE POINT! If you don't know about something, or know what it does (which, I don't consider "knowing" it)... you don't turn it on! So, it's fair because you don't KNOW it, and most users won't know, so the performance seen in the [H] benchmarks represents the majority.

Am I making sense? I don't mean to get angry, but I really do want to know if you understand.

 

[Gavinni]

What and were do you type it? I typed +r_fastzreject into the console and it said invalid entry. And when I type r_fastzreject 1 in the console it goes to 1, but when i restart it goes back. How can I tell if its enabled, and how do u enable it?

 

[Kern]

What and were do you type it? I typed +r_fastzreject into the console and it said invalid entry. And when I type r_fastzreject 1 in the console it goes to 1, but when i restart it goes back. How can I tell if its enabled, and how do u enable it?

Ahh... point proven!

Anyway, the 1 setting means it's on, the 0 setting means it is off. I'm guessing if you always want it on you either have to edit the config (which I'm unsure of with HL2, but I knew in HL), or add it to your command line shortcut / parameters on your HL2 game shortcut in STEAM.

 

[Silverghost]

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THAT'S THE POINT! If you don't know about something, or know what it does (which, I don't consider "knowing" it)... you don't turn it on! So, it's fair because you don't KNOW it, and most users won't know, so the performance seen in the [H] benchmarks represents the majority.

Am I making sense? I don't mean to get angry, but I really do want to know if you understand.

Yeah, I just read the sticky thread. I didn't before hand

 

[inotocracy]

From the console itself:

"r_fastzreject" = "1" ( def. "0" )
- Activate/deactivates a fast z-setting algorithm to take advantage of hardware with fast z reject. Use -1 to default to hardware settings

Oh and mine was set to 1, I run a 6800NU

 

[Kern]

From the console itself:

"r_fastzreject" = "1" ( def. "0" )
- Activate/deactivates a fast z-setting algorithm to take advantage of hardware with fast z reject. Use -1 to default to hardware settings

Oh and mine was set to 1, I run a 6800NU

Nvidia cards are enabled by default. ATI cards have it disabled by default.

 

[inotocracy]

Nvidia cards are enabled by default. ATI cards have it disabled by default.

Maybe the ATi cards dont support it fully? Have users tried setting it to -1 to see what it defaults to after that?

 

[Kern]

Maybe the ATi cards dont support it fully? Have users tried setting it to -1 to see what it defaults to after that?

Oh, they run it... that's the whole point of this. Apparently it gives better performance. I really don't want to start anything, I am NOT video card biased, I have owned both and love each, but a lot of ATI users in the HL2 benchies thread where complaining that Brent didn't use it when he tested. They claimed it wasn't fair. They claim it because ATI cards were supposed to dominate Nvidia cards... and they're not. The game is CPU limited, we've seen it. Maybe the ATI cards DO own it... but we can't tell.

 

[Jbirney]

They claim it because ATI cards were supposed to dominate Nvidia cards... and they're not. The game is CPU limited, we've seen it. Maybe the ATI cards DO own it... but we can't tell.

Own? Dont think it own HL2. But look at Anandtech latest HL2 numbers and the x800 PE wins every one. The GT and the X800 tie, ect. Thus given everything else it looks like the ATI cards are "faster".


Kern,

I knew about this way before I cam to this thread. It showed up in Beyond3d forum a few hours after HL2 was offically out there. The fact that it will be switched on for all ATI cards soon means that some day it will be out of the box experince. Thats why we are asking to see if enabling it does indeed gain FPS. I mean its a simple test to check (again when Brent has time). If it does add more FPS then is that worth knowing about if you have an ATI card? I mean if there was a option to add more FPS to a game and you had a that card, wouldn't you want to know about it? Just have him run the test and lets see what happens.

 

[Silverghost]

Why dont you guys all run some before and after tests and answer your own question...

 

[Kern]

Yes, if it helps, I agree, you should add it. The reason I'm doing this is to represent what a vast majority of the people who purchase HL2 will do, and to save Brent some flak. He worked his ass off today to get benchmarks up and people in the other forum were yelling at him like he'd done something wrong. I'm sorry, I just don't like people getting upset, so I decided to make this poll.

 

[Jbirney]

Yes, if it helps, I agree, you should add it. The reason I'm doing this is to represent what a vast majority of the people who purchase HL2 will do, and to save Brent some flak. He worked his ass off today to get benchmarks up and people in the other forum were yelling at him like he'd done something wrong. I'm sorry, I just don't like people getting upset, so I decided to make this poll.

Oh I agree it does not have to been done today, tomorrow, ect. I just am wondering if it does help as some ATI fans are saying. I would test it but I have enough work on my mod that I can't afford right now to stop and spend 30 min testing. I am checking these forums inbetween by builds... so I am trying to stay focused on my work...trying key word

 

[OriginalReaper]

"a vast majority of the people who purchase HL2 will do"

Um, what? More people will try and fail to run HL2 800 MHz computers than will use this command. A lot of people, yes. Vast majority? Not even close.

Not to start anything, just saying...

 

[inotocracy]

"a vast majority of the people who purchase HL2 will do"

Um, what? More people will try and fail to run HL2 800 MHz computers than will use this command. A lot of people, yes. Vast majority? Not even close.

Not to start anything, just saying...

...what?

 

[Kern]

So... the command doesn't apply to them. Hence... it doesn't matter, so they're a majority

 

[tranCendenZ]

perhaps the fastzreject has graphic issues with ati cards which is why valve disabled it by default. it would make no sense to disable it otherwise.

 

[Moloch]

perhaps the fastzreject has graphic issues with ati cards which is why valve disabled it by default. it would make no sense to disable it otherwise.

No.
I'm the user who asked brent about it.
It isn't enabled by default, because the decision was made during the NV30/ R300 and during graphically limited situations*likely using and FX card* there are gains to be made, but during cpu limited times*R300*(back then I guess) you might get a small fps loss.
But it will be the default with a patch or something, so it works perfectly fine on ati cards, 40fps+ possible.

 

[nweibley]

I agree, with the first patch of the game it will default to on, thus this really isn't as big of an issue as it is being made out to be. The arguement that many users will not know to enable this cvar is true, but I would definitely wager that the vast majority will be getting updated via steam in the coming weeks.

 

[Moloch]

I agree, with the first patch of the game it will default to on, thus this really isn't as big of an issue as it is being made out to be. The arguement that many users will not know to enable this cvar is true, but I would definitely wager that the vast majority will be getting updated via steam in the coming weeks.

I think of it like SM3 for farcry.. at first you had to enable by hand correct?

 

[fallguy]

No.
I'm the user who asked brent about it.
It isn't enabled by default, because the decision was made during the NV30/ R300 and during graphically limited situations*likely using and FX card* there are gains to be made, but during cpu limited times*R300*(back then I guess) you might get a small fps loss.
But it will be the default with a patch or something, so it works perfectly fine on ati cards, 40fps+ possible.

Actually.. I asked him well before you did.

Why hasnt a user who has a X800 card tried this? It would only take a few minutes.

 

[Moloch]

Actually.. I asked him well before you did.

Why hasnt a user who has a X800 card tried this? It would only take a few minutes.

Bastard..
Well from the beyond3d thread, a guy said that users are reporting upwards of a 40fps gain, but didnt see a link to the a thread or anything like that.

 

[fallguy]

I would like to see some hard numbers. I have a friend with a X800 Pro Vivo flashed to XT/PE. Im going over there tomorrow.. but it would just be much easier for someone to post there. There are hundereds of posters with X800 cards, someone just try it in either [H]'s or Anands, or both to see what it does. I have a hard time believing its going to add 40+ frames, but I could see 10 or so.

 

[Moloch]

I would like to see some hard numbers. I have a friend with a X800 Pro Vivo flashed to XT/PE. Im going over there tomorrow.. but it would just be much easier for someone to post there. There are hundereds of posters with X800 cards, someone just try it in either [H]'s or Anands, or both to see what it does. I have a hard time believing its going to add 40+ frames, but I could see 10 or so.

Well I would like hard numbers also

 

[SocketA]

Does anyone know if this command will help Counter Strike Source also? So if tommorow someone said disabling fast user switching in windows will help 6800 users achieve better frame rates wouldn't you disable it? Of course you would. As gamers we buy the most expensive hardware, and tweak our systems as much as possible in search of more and more frames per second. Perhaps [Hard] should run the demo's again with this enabled and report the results. Tweak or not, if it helps, it helps.

 

[Jbirney]

Does anyone know if this command will help Counter Strike Source also?

Dave over at B3D said it might. So meh?

Perhaps [Hard] should run the demo's again with this enabled and report the results. Tweak or not, if it helps, it helps.

I agree. HardOCP tends to carter to those of us that are more adapt and tweaking their cards and systems. I am willing to bet most of the people here have tweaked a setting somewhere (ini, control pannel, short cut, launch script, ect) at some time in their life to get an extra boost in a game.

 

[Vladimir]

No.
It isn't enabled by default, because the decision was made during the NV30/ R300 and during graphically limited situations*likely using and FX card* there are gains to be made, but during cpu limited times*R300*(back then I guess) you might get a small fps loss.
But it will be the default with a patch or something, so it works perfectly fine on ati cards, 40fps+ possible.

So, even after the millions and millions of dollars that ATI has given Valve, you think Valve just plain forgot to enable this great tweak? Sounds a little fishy to me. If its disabled by default, theres usually a reason for it. Especially when its for the company that is paying your bills. But, I guess we will know when the first patch comes out.

Vlad

 

[Brent_Justice]

With all this +r_fastzreject stuff going on in regards to [H]'s benchmarks and HL2... let me propose a poll... in fact, I may even START a poll...

How many people with ATI cards... no, fuck it... how many people PERIOD have heard of this command BEFORE it was stated here? It IS apples to apples because the VAST consumer audience has no clue about it. They'll buy HL2, install it, and play it. Same with video cards. They look at the graphs, think they don't have to do anything, and they'll buy it (poor wording, but I meant reviews such as [H]).

If you don't know what I'm talking about here, vote no, because... well, you haven't heard of it before.

I did not hear about this command until our article was published and the thread created here in this forum about it and someone posted in that that thread that this command exists.

In fact here is the first time I read about this command, reading this post here from fallguy: http://www.hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1026879848&postcount=105 105 posts INTO the thread, at 11AM my time, many hours past the article being published!

So if even I did not know about this command, the average gamer sure aint gonna know about it.

The fact is the game shipped the way it shipped, and we benchmarked it out of box as any gamer would installing it on their computer, loading it up and playing the game.

The point was to take the game, install it, use the in-game video options to set the quality settings, like AA and AF, and play the game. We did not make any command line changes because then the game would not be at the default settings as shipped and played by millions.


Here is a question for people so concerned about this command, what if there are *gasp* other commands enabled or disabled on NV cards vs. ATI cards?

Oh noes! The world must end

Fact is we don't know if there are other commands enabled or not for each. And the point is the game was shipped a certain way for a reason, and that's how gamers are gonna play the game, they aren't going to know every single command line, hell, I don't!

Fact is certain settings are enabled or disabled for certain cards, and that's just the way it is.

Point is to test the game at default shipped settings and see where the cards stack up.

And just enjoy the game!

 

[Xilikon]

I did not hear about this command until our article was published and the thread created here in this forum about it and someone posted in that that thread that this command exists.

In fact here is the first time I read about this command, reading this post here from fallguy: http://www.hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1026879848&postcount=105 105 posts INTO the thread, at 11AM my time, many hours past the article being published!

So if even I did not know about this command, the average gamer sure aint gonna know about it.

The fact is the game shipped the way it shipped, and we benchmarked it out of box as any gamer would installing it on their computer, loading it up and playing the damn game.

The point was to take the game, install it, use the in-game video options to set the quality settings, like AA and AF, and play the game. We did not make any command line changes because then the game would not be at the default settings as shipped and played by millions.


Here is a question for people so concerned about this command, what if there are *gasp* other commands enabled or disabled on NV cards vs. ATI cards?

Oh noes! The world must end

Fact is we don't know if there are other commands enabled or not for each. And the point is the game was shipped a certain way for a reason, and that's how gamers are gonna play the game, they aren't going to know every single command line, hell, I don't!

Fact is certain settings are enabled or disabled for certain cards, and that's just the way it is.

Point is to test the game at default shipped settings and see where the cards stack up.

And just enjoy the damn game damnit!

Exactly, and it might be worthwhile to do benchies with this setting enabled only when HL2 has a few weeks up his sleeve and more users know this command. I'm pretty sure a tweak guide for HL2 will be released in a few days/weeks.

Brent did it because we asked it for a rough comparaison asap, not for a full set of benchmarks which take time to be completed.

 

[Brent_Justice]

The fact that it will be switched on for all ATI cards soon means that some day it will be out of the box experince.

NO, it doesn't mean it will be an out of box experience.

It means it will be a PATCHED experience.

The out of box version will still have it off.

If the Patch enables it, great. When the patch is released we'll apply the patch and test cards using it.

It's pretty much like FarCry. We tested with Patch 1.1 until Patch 1.3 came out which enables SM 3.0 and GI support on GF6 series cards.

We will use the default out of box HL2 until a patch is released, then we will patch it and use the patched version from then on and evaluate performance in it.

Simple

 

[Jbirney]

NO, it doesn't mean it will be an out of box experience.

It means it will be a PATCHED experience.

Lots of people got HL2 via steam as I did. There is no box expericne for me. There is an out of the steam experince What happens if a patch comes out tonight and when I hit HL2 and I have to download something to play. You know that patches come out all of the time for CS:S and in order to play that you have to have the updates. Are you 100% certian it HL2 will not be simular? What if this is enabled then? That then becomes the out of box experince. What happend a month from now when a new user goes to play HL2 after buy the CD and then Steam updates his HL2 auto-magicly for him
? Whats out of the box then? TBH Steam and HL is going to make it hard for you to do benchmarks if it updates it sefl all the time...


Also I am puzzled by your reactions Brent. I thought you of all people, a hardware and game junkie would be interested in checking this out just to see if its true. You know you have spent more time responding to threads saying why you won't do this, were you could have just done it and reported the results and still saved more time We dont want you to change your article just run one or two simple tests....

 

[Moloch]

So, even after the millions and millions of dollars that ATI has given Valve, you think Valve just plain forgot to enable this great tweak? Sounds a little fishy to me. If its disabled by default, theres usually a reason for it. Especially when its for the company that is paying your bills. But, I guess we will know when the first patch comes out.

Vlad

They didn't forget it, read the fucking thread
They made the decision during the R300 era for the last time!
Jesus!

 

[tranCendenZ]

They didn't forget it, read the fucking thread
They made the decision during the R300 era for the last time!
Jesus!

Hello? The game wasn't released during the R300 era, it was released a few days ago. They would have "forgotten it" if they didn't turn it on. That is, if it doesn't cause some graphical issues for ATI cards. ATI payed Valve big bucks for the game, I'm sure they tweaked it for best IQ/Performance on ATI X800 cards before releasing it.

 

[pxc]

ATI payed Valve big bucks for the game, I'm sure they tweaked it for best IQ/Performance on ATI X800 cards before releasing it.

That's pretty obvious. Valve/ATI probably had a reason for shipping it with that setting off.